Will narrowing Affirmative Action's target range make it less controversial?

[mTOR]

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This thread was inspired by this borderline silly yet rather sad article I read on CNN's website a few days ago about the more frequent nature white racial tensions:

Are whites racially oppressed?
By John Blake, CNN
March 4, 2011 9:01 a.m. EST

[-- snip --]

"You have this perception out there that whites are no longer in control or the majority. Whites are the new minority group."

Call it racial jujitsu: A growing number of white Americans are acting like a racially oppressed majority. They are adopting the language and protest tactics of an embattled minority group, scholars and commentators say. They point to these signs of racial anxiety:

• A recent Public Religion Research Institute poll found 44% of Americans surveyed identify discrimination against whites as being just as big as bigotry aimed at blacks and other minorities. The poll found 61% of those identifying with the Tea Party held that view, as did 56% of Republicans and 57% of white evangelicals.

• A Texas group recently formed the "Former Majority Association for Equality" to offer college scholarships to needy white men. Colby Bohannan, the group's president, says white men don't have scholarship options available to minorities. "White males are definitely not a majority" anymore, he says.

[-- snip --]

For many decades, white people saw themselves as individuals, not as members of a race, says Matt Wray, a sociologist at Temple University in Pennsylvania, who writes books about white studies.

"We are often offended if someone calls attention to our race as shaping how we view the world," says Wray, author of "Not Quite White." "We don't like to be pigeon-holed that way. Non-white Americans are seldom afforded this luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race."

Still, Wray says anxiety among whites over their place in America is nothing new. Some 19th century whites worried about slave revolts. During segregation. some worried about blacks they labeled as "uppity Negroes."

"Whites have never really felt terribly secure in their majority status," he says. "It's often said that it is lonely at the top, but it's also an anxious place to be, because you live in constant fear of falling."

[-- snip --]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/21/white.persecution/?hpt=T2

@ the notion of whites being oppressed. Haven't watched T.V. in a few days so I was dumbfounded by the news of the organization advocating scholarships for needy white men...

Surely, this must be satire.. but apparently, and incredibly, it isn't:

[youtube]k-wR5GyAr8s[/youtube]

In another video, Mr. Bohannan expressed a fundamental lack of understanding of how legacies of past institutional discrimination extend into modern day societal outcomes. Sad as that is, I'm sure he's far from alone in his thinking.

So I began wondering... what if active minority-including efforts such as Affirmative Action (AA) were more narrow in who they targeted to benefit from the program? What if, instead of benefiting any and all URM applicants, it benefited only those from the communities with high levels of concentrated disadvantaged? This, in turn, would net a benefit to society as well since, besides rewarding overcoming the unique challenges that growing up in such a community presents, it would divert a potential path of being a societal burden to a path of productivity and contribution.

Some might be curious as to why I use the term "concentrated disadvantage"? It encapsulates a number of factors at the community level (most salient of which being concentrated poverty) that constitutes a huge ecological risk for children growing up exposed to it. It is correlated with all sorts of negative outcomes for those who endure it. More egregiously, it is intimately linked with patterns of historical racial exclusion. If AA's subtext is to redress past legacies, this would be the most direct way of doing it.

Cliff notes for those who haven't been keeping up with sociology literature and are still confused:

- K-12 academic achievement trajectories are extremely important in determining tertiary ed opportunities, and likewise, life chances
- If a child's family and school existed in a vacuum, you could blame one or the other for a child's poor academic outcome
- Unfortunately, that is not the case and it is not that easy. In reality, a child's academic trajectory is heavily influenced by social and economic processes that occur at the intra- and inter-neighborhood level, both directly (by affecting the child) and indirectly (by affecting parenting practices and school quality):

Durable effects of concentrated disadvantage on verbal ability among African-American children

Disparities in verbal ability, a major predictor of later life outcomes, have generated widespread debate, but few studies have been able to isolate neighborhood-level causes in a developmentally and ecologically appropriate way. This study presents longitudinal evidence from a large-scale study of >2,000 children ages 6 –12 living in Chicago, along with their caretakers, who were followed wherever they moved in the U.S. for up to 7 years. African American children are exposed in such disproportionate numbers to concentrated disadvantage that white and Latino children cannot be reliably compared, calling into question traditional research strategies assuming common points of overlap in ecological risk. We therefore focus on trajectories of verbal ability among African-American children, extending recently developed counterfactual methods for time-varying causes and outcomes to adjust for a wide range of predictors of selection into and out of neighborhoods. The results indicate that living in a severely disadvantaged neighborhood reduces the later verbal ability of black children on average by 4 points, a magnitude that rivals missing a year or more of schooling.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/articles/2008_PNAS_DurableEffects.pdf

- Children growing up in neighborhoods isolated from economic resources and, more importantly, isolated from beneficial social and cultural influences will thus have their trajectories adversely affected, limiting life chances and future access to resources
- As adults with limited resources, these individuals are unable to escape the isolated community:

Neighborhoods and the Black-White Mobility Gap

One of the most powerful findings of the Economic Mobility Project's research to date has been the striking mobility gap between blacks and whites in America. Over a generation, white children are more likely than blacks to experience upward mobility in adulthood, while black children are more likely than whites to experience downward mobility. This report, authored by New York University sociologist, Patrick Sharkey, finds that growing up in a high-poverty neighborhood increases the risk of experiencing downward mobility and explains a sizable portion of the black-white downward mobility gap. These data suggest that public policy efforts that focus on investing in disadvantaged neighborhoods and reducing the concentration of poverty could enhance economic mobility for the children in those neighborhoods.

http://www.economicmobility.org/reports_and_research/other/other?id=0009 -- Work done by the staunchly nonpartisan Pews Charitable Trusts

- For this reason, groups isolated from the mainstream (e.g., Hmong, Cambodians, Laotians) tend to stay isolated, generation after generation, regardless of the initial precipitating factors (whether it be historical exclusion or from recent immigration with a language barrier -- worst yet if it's immigration from areas with low transferable cultural capital, as with the aforementioned rural SE asian groups):

Ghettos: The Changing Consequences of Ethnic Isolation By Edward Gleason, Fred and Eleanor Glimp Professor of Economics at Harvard

[-- snip --]

The African-American ghettos of the mid-twentieth century appear to have been much less harmful than those of today. In the most segregated cities, such as Chicago, Cleveland, and Detroit, African-Americans prospered as workers in America's industrial centers. The fortunes of the ghettos changed, in part, as a result of downturns in manufacturing in postwar America. But the declining vigor of African-American ghettos also resulted from a pervasive feature of all immigrant ghettos. David Cutler, Jacob Vigdor, and I found that immigrant ghettos are generally beneficial, or at least not harmful, for the first generation of residents. Today, first-generation Asians, who often do not speak English, seem to be helped by living in segregated Asian communities. But when we look at later generations still living in the earlier generation's ghetto, we see deleterious effects. This was true of Irish immigrants still living in ghettos in 1910, long after the major Irish immigration waves, or of Eastern European immigrants still living in their ghettos in 1940.

This overall pattern helps us understand why ghettos form and why they can be harmful to residents. The first generation of migrants benefits from the social networks, the cultural comforts, and the protection against native hostility. But ghettos deprive their children of contacts with the broader world and with the informational connections that make cities so strong. The negative effects of ghetto isolation are exacerbated as many of the ghetto's most able children then leave for more integrated communities, or for more prosperous segregated communities. So thirty years after the immigrant ghetto was a vibrant community, it typically becomes an island distant from the city, whose inhabitants rarely experience the best features of U.S. urban society.

[-- snip --]

- The story of Black America is a tale of such an abject isolation, a consequence of historical exclusion:

Again, see Gleason's http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/nerr/rr1997/spring/glsr97_2.htm

or hell, even wikipedia will do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto#African_American_ghettos

- An exclusion so pernicious, however, that currently no other racial or ethnic group is as deeply segregated today
- In general, it takes an active inclusionary effort, over generations, to assimilate an isolated group into the dominant culture
- with black America, unfortunately not only has it only been a couple of generations, but the effort is being rolled back while aversive exclusionary practices arguably continue -- consequently, spatial segregation is remaining largely unchanged or worse:

- Affirmative Action constitutes a means for assimilation-like ends (although I realize it's recently being framed as a means for diversity to avoid litigation)
- If AA more specifically targeted those reared in the most socially hazardous and economically depressed communities, there will (arguably) be a net mutual benefit to both the selected individual AND to society, as opposed to just the individual (i.e., pre-Bel-Aire Will Smith would benefit as would society in reducing financial assistance and health care costs... Carlton, however, would not)

It seems like a more tenable direction to me, thoughts?

 

[Morzh]

Waaay tl;dr.

I think its a good scholarship. There's a scholarship for every other race, why not white males, especially since they are a true minority now? The quotes you quoted by Dr. Wray make my head want to explode. Utter idiocy.

"Non-white Americans are seldom afforded this luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race."... Sure they can, if they want to. Nobody would object. Really.

Perfect example of someone who is supposedly trying to help racial minorities but actually ends up hurting them more by suggesting that they lack the power to enable themselves; that the onus is on somebody ELSE to make sure they succeed. These people make careers out of pushing minority races back into a kind of emotional and political slavery.. they need racism and discrimination to exist in the most egregious ways because their livelihood depends on it. If you look for anything hard enough, you'll eventually find it (whether it actually exists or not).

Also, I don't see how this has anything to do with a pre-med forum.

 

[Cleavername]

interesting.

people dont seem to understand that while AA is tryin to make it fair, its holding people of different races to different standards, thus in the process, its created unfairness which it was trying to solve in the first place. It will never be resolved like this. kind of like our justice system, while we punish criminals by putting them in prison, hoping that they will learn something from this and keeping our streets safer, however, some of those criminals release from prison become even more violent and destructive as they have been harden by the time they spend in prison.

ugh i went off target a little, but hey OP, good post there.

 

[Negrodamus]

- Affirmative Action constitutes a means for assimilation-like ends (although I realize it's recently being framed as a means for diversity to avoid litigation)
- If AA more specifically targeted those reared in the most socially hazardous and economically depressed communities, there will (arguably) be a net mutual benefit to both the selected individual AND to society, as opposed to just the individual (i.e., pre-Bel-Aire Will Smith would benefit as would society in reducing financial assistance and health care costs... Carlton, however, would not)

It seems like a more tenable direction to me, thoughts?

Not at all. You can't solve the bigger problem without addressing the systemic poverty and educational inequality that exists in our country. (How can you expect to even get the point of affirmative action when you schools are so bad you're three or four grade levels behind?) And to be honest, I have no idea how to solve it. I would think that something like HCZ or KIPP academy would prove to be effective, but there is no way the teachers unions would stand for that.

 

[mTOR]

Waaay tl;dr.

I think its a good scholarship. There's a scholarship for every other race, why not white males, especially since they are a true minority now? The quotes you quoted by Dr. Wray make my head want to explode. Utter idiocy.

"Non-white Americans are seldom afforded this luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race."... Sure they can, if they want to. Nobody would object. Really.

Perfect example of someone who is supposedly trying to help racial minorities but actually ends up hurting them more by suggesting that they lack the power to enable themselves; that the onus is on somebody ELSE to make sure they succeed. These people make careers out of pushing minority races back into a kind of emotional and political slavery.. they need racism and discrimination to exist in the most egregious ways because their livelihood depends on it. If you look for anything hard enough, you'll eventually find it (whether it actually exists or not).

Except... racism and discrimination does exist today. It's just more subtle, indirect, and often times largely unintentional. Contemporary racism is mostly exerted through aversive biases with very real and distinctly measurable effects. I actually made an entire thread on it elsewhere on this forum ( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=784657 ).

However, I do agree somewhat that Dr. Wray's statements on who's afforded the "luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race" may be a bit of an oversimplification. Intuitively, there will probably be a "real world experience" factor (and likewise, age factor), to its distribution amongst blacks. Blacks who are, for whatever reason, shielded from being made aware of subjective judgments or aversive behaviors towards them will likely be afforded the "race-disconnected" luxury. There's probably also a gender break here as well: since the stereotypes for black males are more punishing, the aversive behaviors they fuel would intuitively be more pronounced and easier to be clued in to.

 

[mTOR]

interesting.

people dont seem to understand that while AA is tryin to make it fair, its holding people of different races to different standards, thus in the process, its created unfairness which it was trying to solve in the first place. It will never be resolved like this. kind of like our justice system, while we punish criminals by putting them in prison, hoping that they will learn something from this and keeping our streets safer, however, some of those criminals release from prison become even more violent and destructive as they have been harden by the time they spend in prison.

Yeh proposed solutions often exacerbate problems or tensions; I agree these are unfortunately complex societal issues with no easy solution.

 

[apumic]

While I would tend to think that focusing on racial differences and inequality tends to segregate minorities and hold them back, I actually recall research showing that it appears to have more positive effects on minority peoples to be identified as separate. That being said, I'd think my African American, Asian, and Hispanic friends would prefer to be thought of as individuals and not members of a racial/ethnic group.

Btw, when it comes to racial bias, the Implicit Attitude Test is a good place to begin. Check it out here!

 

[mTOR]

Not at all. You can't solve the bigger problem without addressing the systemic poverty and educational inequality that exists in our country. (How can you expect to even get the point of affirmative action when you schools are so bad you're three or four grade levels behind?) And to be honest, I have no idea how to solve it. I would think that something like HCZ or KIPP academy would prove to be effective, but there is no way the teachers unions would stand for that.

Haha have you been watching Waiting for Superman? Geoffrey Canada is a great man. And the film itself is awesome at identifying some of the contributing factors to the problem, although one must be careful of placing the blame too narrowly on teachers unions.

Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree there absolutely needs to be more HCZs and KIPPs. However, I think there's value in using AA to reward academic engagement when your zoned public school looks like this:

[youtube]9tetlOkOAgM[/youtube]

(that is, the 1 in 10 schools in America described as "drop out factories")

 

[mTOR]

That being said, I'd think my African American, Asian, and Hispanic friends would prefer to be thought of as individuals and not members of a racial/ethnic group.

Of course. This almost goes without saying. Do you think anyone wants to be identified by their marginalized group status on first impression? Especially if it's a group traditionally associated with academic under-achievement and a variety of other poor outcomes?

I think most people in our generation aren't immediately sold on the dogma of identity politics.. until they are put in situations where they are forced to acknowledge how others truly perceive them (i.e., in subjective evaluations for job promotions, medical school, etc.) and experience a sudden disillusionment.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I'll admit I didn't read it all, but is the tl;dr that we should combine URM and financial/environmental disadvantage into one thing? In other words, don't give URMs who grew up in the rich parts of Orange County the same status as URMs who grew up in Camden?

 

[phltz]

Waaay tl;dr.

It's actually worth reading. It won't take you more than a few minutes. Is your attention span so short that, although interested enough in the thread to post, you can't be bothered to spend a lousy couple of minutes figuring out what you're responding to?

"Non-white Americans are seldom afforded this luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race."... Sure they can, if they want to. Nobody would object. Really.

Have you even lived somewhere where you are visibly in the extreme minority? It's really hard to appreciate this until you've lived it. I grew up as a white kid in a largely black area, and while I would frequently be the only white kid on the bus, I was always immersed in a larger culture dominated by whites. If some jackasses on the bus saw me first and foremost as a white kid, and gave me crap for it, it was annoying or possibly frightening, but it didn't have to power to ultimately shape how I felt like I fit in to the world.

Later in life, I spent several years living in a small town in Africa. It was an entirely different kettle of fish. The most salient feature about me to pretty much everyone was that I was a white American. This led to a whole host of assumptions that were difficult if not impossible to dislodge in the minds of even my fairly close friends. Even when I changed people's views, it was usually by changing their views of all Americans, not by developing my own individual identity. It's incredibly wearing to always know that people are looking at you as different, as more an instance of some group than an individual.

It's easy to discount this if you haven't lived it, but I think it's real.

 

[phltz]

I'll admit I didn't read it all, but is the tl;dr that we should combine URM and financial/environmental disadvantage into one thing? In other words, don't give URMs who grew up in the rich parts of Orange County the same status as URMs who grew up in Camden?

The problem is that, as far as something like medical school goes, there aren't many good candidates who actually grew up in the terrible parts of Camden. Giving extra consideration for med school admissions, or even college admissions, is just intervening way too late in the game. Most of those kids are already hopelessly behind. Giving extra consideration to the few qualified candidates from the seriously bad neighborhoods may well be more fair, but ultimately it's not going to budge the needle in terms of the overall racial mix at medical schools. And, for good or for ill, schools are judged on that overall racial mix moreso than the ratio of kids from OC to those from Camden.

 

[Cleavername]

Haha have you been watching Waiting for Superman? Geoffrey Canada is a great man. And the film itself is awesome at identifying some of the contributing factors to the problem, although one must be careful of placing the blame too narrowly on teachers unions.

Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree there absolutely needs to be more HCZs and KIPPs. However, I think there's value in using AA to reward academic engagement when your zoned public school looks like this:

[youtube]9tetlOkOAgM[/youtube]

(that is, the 1 in 10 schools in America described as "drop out factories")

dayum thats one....attractive woman. Dark hair light eyes....hm.....