Wisconsin vs Illinois (DVM-PhD)

[Tech_Penguin]

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So grateful for getting into 2 of my top choices! But the I'm pretty stuck between these schools. Both have great cancer centers and research programs so I'd be happy to attend either school and live there. Does anyone know something unique about these programs that isn't posted on their websites? Also, I'm now a little torn about a DVM/PhD vs a combined residency/PhD (more below). Can anyone share what they liked/didn't like about either of these pathways?

DVM

• Wisconsin
  • Pros:
    • more urban, (wider variety of activities and social experiences, larger dating pool, etc) which is preferable
    • nearby airport (10-15 minute drive)
    • More scenic (lakes, nature)
    • Smaller class size
    • Recent renovations/expansions
  • Cons: higher COL, no direct flights back home
    • waitlisted for dual-degree (unsure if I can reapply as a current student), which offers only 50k
    • Cold winters (starting to dread snowstorms )
• Illinois
  • Pros:
    • 80k scholarship (dual-degree)
    • May be possible to qualify for 1-2 years of IS tuition after a PhD (still have to verify)
    • Larger vet campus and more alumni
  • Cons:
    • Apparently in the middle of cornfields? (less to do outside of school)
    • airport isn't close (1.5-ish hours)
• Similarities
  • Already have faculty interest for research
  • Both have rotating internships and residencies in specialties I'm interested in
  • Well-regarded by faculty at other schools (plus for residency applications)
  • Robust cancer research, comparative oncology, and biomedical engineering programs
  • Can do PhD in any department
  • Nearly equivalent tuition, caseloads, and residency match rates

PhD

• DVM/PhD
  • Pros:
    • Can spend my 20's in one place without moving all over the country
    • Can chose my PhD department/degree, which opens the door to more opportunities
    • Scholarships and eligible for NIH dual degree stipends
    • More time to do research (8 vs 6 years) which could help with matching into competitive specialties
  • Cons:
    • More expensive in the long-run (unless I get into CSU or NCSU 🤞)
    • If I don't like the city/school, I'm stuck for longer
    • Slightly longer timeline
• Residency/PhD
  • Pros:
    • Because interest is a thing, this pathway is somehow ~50-100k cheaper as an OOS student!
    • Research can be more clinically oriented with a DVM
    • Earning income from clinical work even during grad school
    • More time to establish yourself as a clinician at a teaching hospital which could lead to a faculty position
    • 6 years applied to PSLF program (if that's still a thing in a decade)
    • More convenient for family planning if I'm staying in the same place from mid 20's to early 30's
    • Can move after 4 years if I don't really like the city/school. Can try to stay for the next 7 years if I end up loving the place
    • 1 year shorter timeline
  • Cons:
    • Generally limited to labs at the vet school for a PhD
    • Dating could be harder in vet school if you may move in 4 vs 8 years
    • Very limited residency options for small animal surgery and radiation oncology (may have to do master's -> PhD?)
    • More uncertain...what happens if I don't match into this specific program?
    • I know several academic programs I like don't have this option at all (even with a master's)
  • Other considerations
    • If possible I'd currently prefer to stay in the same place for the bulk of my education/training
    • I have some family assistance for tuition since my parents inherited some money after their parents passed. And I barely touched my college savings account
    • I think starting PhD as a faculty (early 30's) is too stressful, which is why I'm aiming to get it before then. I also think doing a PhD in between vet school and a residency will make it more difficult to match
    • I'd chose NCSU or CSU over these schools for the cost alone

 

[supershorty]

What is it you're wanting to ultimately do? Residency/PhD programs are much more common in path (specifically anatomic path, I think) than other specialties - I wouldn't count on that being an option if you're wanting to do something that isn't path.

 

[JaynaAli]

I don’t know a whole lot about combined programs aside from what I’ve picked up from SDN over the years and what I saw from a few classmates, but isn’t who you’re working with and what programs have availability for grad students a huge part of it? You mention ‘can do PhD in any department’ in your lists, but I don’t really see anything in your list about which has a program that really best meets your goals? If I remember correctly you have pretty niche radiation oncology, medical device interests which aren’t necessarily going to be available everywhere…are there people at these places doing research you want to join?

Maybe my impression is wrong though, someone like shorty who did a combined program would definitely know more than I. It seems like the people I know who did phds after vet school such as before/during residency or afterwards have more longer lasting, more prestigious research careers than students who crammed a project into two years between the DVM curriculum, but that may not be a true assessment because I only know a couple people who successfully completed a combined program…about half at my school dropped the phd part after a while. Also tagging @WildZoo and @WhtsThFrequency for perspective of people who did phds after vet school and residency, respectively.

 

[pp9]

So grateful for getting into 2 of my top choices! But the I'm pretty stuck between these schools

Illinois and Wisconsin winters are comparable enough that I don't think it would need to be a con for Wisconsin. Wisconsin does tend to average more snow/a bit colder but you're getting it either way. This current winter is one of the worst we've seen in quite a while for both cold and snowfall, but next winter might be ridiculously mild. It's a total crapshoot.

Chambana is in fact surrounded by rural farmland (as are many midwest cities) but there is a ton to do in the area. And you're also 2-2.5 hours from Chicago which is one of the best cities in this country, 2.5ish from STL, 6ish from Detroit, 4.5ish from Grand Rapids...you get it. Lots of options for weekend trips to go do something bigger. Honestly looking at Madison on Google maps, it looks similar to Chambana in terms of being surrounded by farmland imo.

Chambana does have a close airport - There is a small airport in Savoy (Willard) that will get you to O'hare in like...25min, flew out of there several times myself for a few things. Willard is probably 5-10min away from the vet school.

Both have rotating internships and residencies in specialties I'm interested in

For this point:

it was a 'thing' for UofI to try their best not to keep students on for continued training as interns or residents (or keep interns on for residencies) at one point. There have definitely been exceptions to that, idk if @futuredogtor614 can report if is this is still a thing the clinicians say? But I guess I'm trying to say that it may not matter what school offers what, you should prepare to hop skip and jump all over the country while hoping you won't have to.

Residency/PhD

Have you verified that this is an option at UofI?

 

[WildZoo]

Technically while I did my PhD after completing my DVM it was still a combined program, so still truncated compared to a standalone (I only had 3 years of guaranteed funding). I didn't go into vet school wanting to do a PhD, it was something I decided to do because I had projects I was working on while in school that I wanted to continue, with a lab and mentor that I already knew were a good fit. So I think a bit of a different perspective from someone going in wanting to do a combined program.

Like has already been mentioned, it really depends on what you want to do so would need more info before giving additional thoughts. I think for most people I generally wouldn't recommend a DVM/PhD. You may find yourself in a residency that has a PhD option but I've mostly seen residency/masters, not residency/PhD and I wouldn't advise banking on that if the PhD is a big deal to you.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

What is it you're wanting to ultimately do? Residency/PhD programs are much more common in path (specifically anatomic path, I think) than other specialties - I wouldn't count on that being an option if you're wanting to do something that isn't path.

I’m mostly interested in radiation oncology and SA surgery (SO + IR). I’ve thought about dentistry/oral surgery, medical oncology, and diagnostics before but there’s components of each that don’t align as well with my clinical interests and career goals compared to those two specialties.

I’ve known of a radiation oncologist and medical oncologist who did a combined residency pathway at UIUC and CSU, but I believe it was negotiated informally. I’ll have to do some digging to see what currently exists or is an option, though. But yeah, I agree it’s definitely not guaranteed to work out

 

[Tech_Penguin]

isn’t who you’re working with and what programs have availability for grad students a huge part of it? You mention ‘can do PhD in any department’ in your lists, but I don’t really see anything in your list about which has a program that really best meets your goals? If I remember correctly you have pretty niche radiation oncology, medical device interests which aren’t necessarily going to be available everywhere…are there people at these places doing research you want to join?

Yes! Both schools have labs working on cancer imaging, targeted therapies, and tumor ablation that are interested in taking me on as a PhD student. I feel doing a theses at any of them will set me up for the type of research career I am interested in. Ideally it would be a BME program since that’s what is most relevant to this research. But it’s not the biggest factor or anything.

I’ve never actually met or heard about a faculty who did a DVM/PhD - at least in the fields I’m interested in. But maybe it’s because some of these programs haven’t been around for that long.

 

[futuredogtor614]

it was a 'thing' for UofI to try their best not to keep students on for continued training as interns or residents (or keep interns on for residencies) at one point. There have definitely been exceptions to that, idk if @futuredogtor614 can report if is this is still a thing the clinicians say? But I guess I'm trying to say that it may not matter what school offers what, you should prepare to hop skip and jump all over the country while hoping you won't have to.

I want to say I've definitely heard it previously recommended that people go elsewhere, but we actually got an email this year saying they welcome students from all AVMA schools including ours. I've heard of there being at least 3 people in my class who are staying here in some capacity (intern or resident) after graduation.

 

[CuriousEventer]

Throwing this into the ring since I think I remember seeing you get accepted as well. Auburn does have a concurrent DVM-PhD. I’m trying to find out more about it.

 

[vindelilas]

Please also note that UW has a specific program for those who receive their DVM and would like to earn a PhD after graduating from their DVM program. It is separate from the dual degree, but a good and competitive alternative!

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Illinois and Wisconsin winters are comparable enough

there is a ton to do in the area. And you're also 2-2.5 hours from Chicago which is one of the best cities in this country, 2.5ish from STL, 6ish from Detroit, 4.5ish from Grand Rapids...you get it. Lots of options for weekend trips to go do something bigger. Honestly looking at Madison on Google maps, it looks similar to Chambana in terms of being surrounded by farmland imo.

Chambana does have a close airport

Good to know. 🤔I'll get a better picture after I visit both places

 

[Tech_Penguin]

it was a 'thing' for UofI to try their best not to keep students on for continued training as interns or residents (or keep interns on for residencies) at one point. There have definitely been exceptions to that

want to say I've definitely heard it previously recommended that people go elsewhere

Oh interesting...One of the oncologists there said that going to UIUC would likely help me match into one of their residencies. They did all their degrees/trainings there, including a combined residency/PhD.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Technically while I did my PhD after completing my DVM it was still a combined program

Like has already been mentioned, it really depends on what you want to do so would need more info before giving additional thoughts. I think for most people I generally wouldn't recommend a DVM/PhD. You may find yourself in a residency that has a PhD option but I've mostly seen residency/masters, not residency/PhD and I wouldn't advise banking on that if the PhD is a big deal to you.

I'm curious, how did you keep up with clinical skills during your PhD years to help remain competitive for residencies (or other clinical positions)?

I'm hoping to do translational cancer research so there will be some overlap between my research and clinical appointments. My research interests are interventional oncology related, so I'd envision myself collaborating with BME PI's and physicians like some of my former research mentors. If my PhD ends up being truncated, I could still do post-doc training (like a K grant). But my goal isn't to run a big lab and do a 90/10 research/clinical split. More like 50/50 or 70/30.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Throwing this into the ring since I think I remember seeing you get accepted as well. Auburn does have a concurrent DVM-PhD. I’m trying to find out more about it.

I totally would and the faculty seem great from what I've heard, but I can't see myself living in Alabama for the next 4-8 years over Illinois or Wisconsin

 

[Tech_Penguin]

PM-ing you more info on Wisco, specifically their dual degree! Please also note that UW has a specific program for those who receive their DVM and would like to earn a PhD after graduating from their DVM program. It is separate from the dual degree, but a good and competitive alternative!

This would be great if I had some way to continue gaining clinical hours during a PhD! Plus I think I'd still be eligible for some clinician scientist awards/scholarships. Maybe if I was doing clinical trial research at the vet school? I've seen that work out well for some dual degree students.

A PhD program there also seemed very open to allowing course overlap between the two degrees, so maybe the timeline will still be the same.

 

[WildZoo]

I'm curious, how did you keep up with clinical skills during your PhD years to help remain competitive for residencies (or other clinical positions)?

I'm hoping to do translational cancer research so there will be some overlap between my research and clinical appointments. My research interests are interventional oncology related, so I'd envision myself collaborating with BME PI's and physicians like some of my former research mentors. If my PhD ends up being truncated, I could still do post-doc training (like a K grant). But my goal isn't to run a big lab and do a 90/10 research/clinical split. More like 50/50 or 70/30.

I worked part time in a GP clinic. A couple others in my program did as well, or worked ER.

I'll leave others to give more specific advice on that route since I know very little about it!

 

[supershorty]

For what it's worth, I was very strongly advised by specialists in my specialty of interest not to do a PhD immediately after my DVM if I was intending to pursue internship and residency, particularly in a competitive specialty. Not all PhD programs will even allow you to work another part time job, so I wouldn't bank on that being an option. That's why I did my DVM and PhD concurrently, even though that has its downsides too.

@WildZoo did, and I know her program was permissive to it, but she's an exceptional and outstanding human being as a whole and I would say her experience and whole pathway to specializing is not the norm.

 

[pp9]

Oh interesting...One of the oncologists there said that going to UIUC would likely help me match into one of their residencies. They did all their degrees/trainings there, including a combined residency/PhD.

Yeah he was definitely one of the exceptions at the time (I went to school with who you’re referring to), but based on what @futuredogtor614 said it sounds like they aren’t as worked up about students/interns fledging the nest anymore. Pros and cons either way

 

[battie]

Nearly equivalent tuition

Is this before or after your 80k UIUC scholarship?

Scholarships and eligible for NIH dual degree stipends

I would not bank on these still existing. Bonus points if they do. But I would assume these are at high risk of being chopped.

Because interest is a thing, this pathway is somehow ~50-100k cheaper as an OOS student!

Absolutely. 50-100k actually sounds low with your timeline, pending what happens with the OBBB private lender situation. Some of your private loans will likely have 10%+ interest if a private lender even wants to give you a loan.

Dating could be harder in vet school if you may move in 4 vs 8 years

Meh. Not really. Most students don't look at time horizons that long, tbh. I certainly wasn't (though my workforce boyfriend now husband definitely was apparently). Most students know that moving is highly likely, so going in with a bit of flexibility in mind is important

There have definitely been exceptions to that, idk if @futuredogtor614 can report if is this is still a thing the clinicians say?

I think it depends on the department at this point. Surgery is still wary of taking from within. One of my classmates did his two internships elsewhere and came back for his surgery residency. He's in year 2 or 3 now, I think.

 

[WildZoo]

For what it's worth, I was very strongly advised by specialists in my specialty of interest not to do a PhD immediately after my DVM if I was intending to pursue internship and residency, particularly in a competitive specialty. Not all PhD programs will even allow you to work another part time job, so I wouldn't bank on that being an option. That's why I did my DVM and PhD concurrently, even though that has its downsides too.

@WildZoo did, and I know her program was permissive to it, but she's an exceptional and outstanding human being as a whole and I would say her experience and whole pathway to specializing is not the norm.

Oh yeah I should say I was also advised against doing what I did by specialists in my specialty of choice

But 1) I knew ahead of time I would be allowed to pursue clinical work while I was doing the PhD 2) I'd accepted I might have to take a roundabout route if my side quest led me astray and was okay with that outcome and 3) importantly said roundabout route does exist and is not super uncommon in zoo med

So yeah my life story doesn't really apply much here

I do have a classmate who did the same dual program I did and found her way to a cardiology residency, but again same program so same allowance for clinical work during PhD time. Truly it may just have been that we got paid poorly enough that we were allowed to be like "hey I literally can't live on this stipend, I need to do other stuff too"

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Is this before or after your 80k UIUC scholarship?

Absolutely. 50-100k actually sounds low with your timeline, pending what happens with the OBBB private lender situation. Some of your private loans will likely have 10%+ interest if a private lender even wants to give you a loan.

The tuition is the same before scholarships. Apparently, UW-Madison is changing funding for their program this year, so even after scholarships/stipends, the tuition is nearly equivalent.

The 50-100k is with parental support factored in. I'm taking out the max 200k in public loans and they're covering the remainder which is a relief. Hopefully PSLF exists in a decade but if not, I still think that debt is manageable.

 

[battie]

The tuition is the same before scholarships. Apparently, UW-Madison is changing funding for their program this year, so even after scholarships/stipends, the tuition is nearly equivalent.

The 50-100k is with parental support factored in. I'm taking out the max 200k in public loans and they're covering the remainder which is a relief. Hopefully PSLF exists in a decade but if not, I still think that debt is manageable.

Then my answer would be whatever is cheapest

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Anyone remember how good UIUC's student health insurance is? I was told that UW Madison has one of the best plans out of any of the schools

 

[pp9]

Anyone remember how good UIUC's student health insurance is? I was told that UW Madison has one of the best plans out of any of the schools

I think the OOP was fairly high and it was through United at the time. They should have all the info about the plan online, I remember reading up on it back in the day

 

[SkiOtter]

They covered a spine injection for me with no questions or preauth back in 2021. It was united at that time so I don’t know if things have changed or how good it currently is. I think I had potentially met my deductible already but I cannot remember. I think my deductible was only about 1k (maybe less, it’s been a minute) though vs a HDHP.

 

[summer42]

Got accepted into both Illinois and Wisconsin vet school aswell as UC Dublin. Very torn between all three. Originally, Dublin was my top choice. I want to work with large animals, especially production animals. Did not think I would get into Wisconsin! Any tips/pros/cons to each?

 

[battie]

Got accepted into both Illinois and Wisconsin vet school aswell as UC Dublin. Very torn between all three. Originally, Dublin was my top choice. I want to work with large animals, especially production animals. Did not think I would get into Wisconsin! Any tips/pros/cons to each?

Who is the cheapest for you to attend?

 

[summer42]

Who is the cheapest for you to attend?

As of now, Dublin, but I have not received the financial aid packages from Wisconsin and Illinois. So this is purely based on COA.

 

[summer42]

Does anyone known when financial aid packages are usually sent out? And if it is before or after we accept the offer on April 15th?

 

[battie]

Does anyone known when financial aid packages are usually sent out? And if it is before or after we accept the offer on April 15th?

I recommend contacting the financial aid officers at each school.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

couple of updates:

• UIUC doesn't have a surgical oncologist (they've been trying to hire one for 2+ years) or a surgeon with an IR interest. If I'm going to be there for 8 years, is this a hill worth dying on if the costs are comparable?
• I slightly prefer the city of Madison, UW's VTH design, and the smaller class size to UIUC.
• The weather feels basically the same when I visited and from what people described from this winter.
• While the PhD opportunities are great at UIUC and I think I'll do well and enjoy it, the type of research I'm most passionate about is only available at UW-Madison. Any current/previous DVM/PhDs think the PhD is make-or-break?
  • I was told by faculty at both schools that being there for 8 years would boost my chances of residencies. If I risk matriculating into UW-Madison's vet school without a guaranteed dual-degree offer, it may workout, especially since the PhD would heavily involve lab animals (and likely client-owned dogs) and I'd have more capabilities as a senior vet student or DVM. The interest with paying off vet school loans earlier is better even.
  • I could always do a post-doc but that's more years + less earning potential.
• Residency change at UIUC remains nearly impossible for the 3rd/4th years since working almost full-time during clinicals isn't feasible. The PhD stipend is linked to student status (even though it's literally a job) so it does not establish intent to move for non-educational purposes.

 

[battie]

UIUC doesn't have a surgical oncologist (they've been trying to hire one for 2+ years) or a surgeon with an IR interest. If I'm going to be there for 8 years, is this a hill worth dying on if the costs are comparable?

Most places don't currently have a surgical oncologist and the chances of gaining or losing one are always a toss up. Wouldn't necessarily make it a deal breaker.

I slightly prefer the city of Madison, UW's VTH design

Literally doesn't matter

smaller class size to UIUC

Does matter to a certain extent if the difference is significant. If we're talking 10-20 students though, it's whatever. This also doesn't factor any non-state side students that join for clinics.

Residency change at UIUC remains nearly impossible for the 3rd/4th years since working almost full-time during clinicals isn't feasible. The PhD stipend is linked to student status (even though it's literally a job) so it does not establish intent to move for non-educational purposes.

You may have to double check me on this. But I think you only need to change the residency via work once. So during first year. So if you work enough during first year to make the switch, they don't switch you back.

However, it's still virtually impossible as you have to make 30-35k to switch residency if I remember correctly. I only knew of one person who did it on her own in the five years I was a student there. She did it by owning and operating a horse stabling facility.

 

[JaynaAli]

Who you’d be working with in any sort of training program like a PhD or residency is important, but at the same time, faculty members leave jobs all the time and 8 years is a long time. The last 10 years it’s been hard for pretty much all schools to recruit and retain faculty members because the pay is so disparate in most specialties between academia and private practice. The place I did my residency at had TWO total turnovers of faculty in clin path in less than 8 years. 6 actually. Meaning all the original longstanding people left around 2014, three new pathologists came in in 2014-2016 and each stayed 3-5 years, then all three of those left within a year of each other and they hired three more in 2019-2020. So who would have been present when a student first started school was vastly different than who was there 8 years down the line. I say all that to make the point that having or at least trying to hire people working in the field you’re interested in is important, but not of the utmost importance because people may leave and you can’t control other people. Many schools have had whole departments fold. When I was a resident our neuro department added an extra resident because the resident in a neighboring state was left faculty-less. The school I graduated from for vet school had to “rehome” their IM residents too when all the IM faculty quit. It’s not common, but it’s also not unheard of.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Yeah, that's a good point. The faculty at UIUC communicated they were pretty happy in their positions and planned on staying longterm but who even knows at this point. Most of the PI's at Wisconsin I want to work with are in the med school which has a better attrition rate so there's that.

I was told the class size at UIUC is 160 vs 100 at UW-Madison. I don't think I can make 35k in a single year outside of a GRA stipend also.

It's honestly so discouraging to see so many vet schools without certain specialists right when I'm beginning this training.

 

[battie]

UIUC is 160 vs 100 at UW-Madison

Whether or not that matters depends on how much effort you're willing to put in for making networking relationships

I don't think I can make 35k in a single year outside of a GRA stipend also.

Then residency change is a moot point regardless.

so many vet schools without certain specialists

This is everyone everywhere and we are approaching the point where all vet schools will be missing a lot of the specialties. Your specific specialty interest is one thing as far as how cool the science is and all that jazz. However, it's particularly tragic in the sense that most students go in GP and most schools don't have behavior, nutrition, or dentistry. It's a toxic negative feedback loop that will only get worse for the next 10-15 years

 

[supershorty]

couple of updates:

• UIUC doesn't have a surgical oncologist (they've been trying to hire one for 2+ years) or a surgeon with an IR interest. If I'm going to be there for 8 years, is this a hill worth dying on if the costs are comparable?

No, because there are many programs without one, it's a small subspecialty. It's not like UW has a really long-standing surg onc program either - they just hired their current surgical oncologist within the last year. She's great and I'm sure will build a great program, but I wouldn't make or break any decisions on something like that. To give you some context - the university I did my training at had 8 boarded surgeons when I started my dual program. By the time I graduated, they had 2.5. This is the unfortunate reality of the struggle that academia is facing, particularly in surgery.

The most important thing for a PhD student is the stability of your lab's funding and of your PI. If there's a chance of your PI leaving, you'll be in a VERY difficult spot. That matters more than what specialists are/not in the hospital.

• I slightly prefer the city of Madison, UW's VTH design, and the smaller class size to UIUC.

I mean this in the kindest way possible, but this means nothing and should not be affecting your decision at all. If you're worried about the class size from a networking perspective with faculty, then you need to make an effort to be outstanding and memorable. If you do that well, it won't matter if there are 99 or 159 other people.

• The weather feels basically the same when I visited and from what people described from this winter.

Again, this should never be something factoring into your decision.

• While the PhD opportunities are great at UIUC and I think I'll do well and enjoy it, the type of research I'm most passionate about is only available at UW-Madison. Any current/previous DVM/PhDs think the PhD is make-or-break?
  • I was told by faculty at both schools that being there for 8 years would boost my chances of residencies. If I risk matriculating into UW-Madison's vet school without a guaranteed dual-degree offer, it may workout, especially since the PhD would heavily involve lab animals (and likely client-owned dogs) and I'd have more capabilities as a senior vet student or DVM. The interest with paying off vet school loans earlier is better even.
  • I could always do a post-doc but that's more years + less earning potential.

So, you have a dual degree offer at UIUC and not one at UW? I don't think I'd be making this decision weighing them equally in your brain, then. Your posts give me the impression that you want people to tell you to go to UW, that's the vibe I get, but with this information, I feel like if anything, you should be leaning more toward UIUC.

Bolded: That's going to be heavily dependent on how you are as a clinical year student and an intern, and not that affected by having done a dual program. I don't know how either of those programs tend to feel about having academically inbred house officers - there are many programs that make a point to avoid taking their own students (or limit their numbers) specifically for internship(s). So I would not be making decisions based on this. Also, consider that there are advantages to not having all of your training at one place - there's not one right way to practice medicine and getting diversity in your training can be beneficial.

Italicized: What do you mean by this?

• Residency change at UIUC remains nearly impossible for the 3rd/4th years since working almost full-time during clinicals isn't feasible. The PhD stipend is linked to student status (even though it's literally a job) so it does not establish intent to move for non-educational purposes.

So then this is functionally just a non-option.

None of us can make the decision for you, but I think the decision you want to make is not the decision I personally would make. Best of luck regardless.

*I recognize that my entire bolded paragraph is highly ironic given my own training trajectory, but I still have to say it

 

[battie]

UIUC generally doesn't take their own students for internship, but takes them back for residency if it was a student who put in the leg work while in school

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Italicized: What do you mean by this?

I mean the benefits of delaying a PhD to after V3/V4 are that I will have clinical skills I can utilize and improve by working with pigs/sheep and possibly client-owned dogs, like running anesthesia, interpreting radiographs, and performing minor procedures (like catheterization). This isn't the biggest selling point but it would be nice to do these type of things before residency - sort of like a specialty internship that also allows me to develop research skills I'll need for my career. This also applies to UIUC since it'll also be clinically-oriented research.

There's still a few months to hear about updates from UW before I finally count it out

 

[pp9]

I mean the benefits of delaying a PhD to after V3/V4 are that I will have clinical skills I can utilize and improve by working with pigs/sheep and possibly client-owned dogs, like running anesthesia, interpreting radiographs, and performing minor procedures (like catheterization).

every school is different, and every student’s experience (even at the same school/in the same class/on the same rotation at the same time) will be different. Keeping that in mind, I wonder if you are romanticizing clinics a bit here. Not saying you should delay/not delay, I just would adjust expectations and see how much that changes your thought process or if it changes anything for you

 

[battie]

This isn't the biggest selling point but it would be nice to do these type of things before residency - sort of like a specialty internship that also allows me to develop research skills I'll need for my career. This also applies to UIUC since it'll also be clinically-oriented research.

I don't know how much you'll actually be doing these clinical skills. Even in actual practice most doctors aren't doing these skills (or at least shouldn't be). Especially in residency, your techs are so above and beyond. The Onco docs are UIUC weren't doing any of this because they had too much doctoring to do.