Withdrawing from waitlist and reapplying?

[mynameistoolong]

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Main questions:
(1) Is this a terrible idea?
(2) Is it possible to get into a top 25 MSTP as a reapplicant?

At the beginning of this cycle, I thought I'd rather go anywhere than be a reapplicant. But after attending interviews, I don't think I want to attend some of the lower/unranked MD/PhD programs; I don't think I will be happy there for 8 years and I fear that I will look back, regretting not strengthening my application instead and applying in later cycles.

I have no acceptances right now; the reason I'm asking this is that I don't want to be 'locked down' by an acceptance from aforementioned schools, and I'm considering withdrawing before this happens. I know it's an absolutely terrible idea to turn down an acceptance and reapply (although some people claim this is an SDN myth), but what about having no acceptances (due to withdrawing) then reapplying?

If I end up doing this, I was planning to take 2 years off to do full-time research and apply in June 2015. I don't think applying in June 2014 is a good idea since I've been in school and won't have any significant changes to my application.

Note: For those unfamiliar with my story, I have good stats (3.75/39) and some interviews (2 MSTP, 4 non-MSTP, 3 top-15 MD), but haven't had any luck post interview (mostly waitlists, not rejections, so I'm not diagnosing interview performance as my main problem). My downfalls were being a non-Canadian international, coming from a not-so-selective state school, and (I believe) mediocre research background (unproductive lab—no pubs/national conferences).

 

[gutonc]

What are you going to do in the next year if you withdraw that will dramatically improve your changes next year? Because that would be the only real reason to not keep you hat in the ring this year.

 

[cpi89]

Lots of people would be very grateful to be on a few wait lists. What do you have to lose by staying on the wait list?

I don't think I want to attend some of the lower/unranked MD/PhD programs

You're an international applicant...unless that magically changes during the next cycle, these may be the only options you have (and you'll have to stay on the wait lists just to find out if you can even get into those). You're obviously very qualified on paper. Your international status was your main downfall, as I think many (including some adcoms) on here have told you before. As the saying goes: "beggers can't be choosers".

You would probably have no trouble getting into a top MD only program. Since the name of the school seems to be more important to you than the the PhD, perhaps you should consider that.

 

[mynameistoolong]

What are you going to do in the next year if you withdraw that will dramatically improve your changes next year? Because that would be the only real reason to not keep you hat in the ring this year.

Would have completed 1 year of full time research by June 2015, which hopefully will have yielded publications (will choose my lab carefully this time).

Lots of people would be very grateful to be on a few wait lists. What do you have to lose by staying on the wait list?

Because then I'd have to go to those programs if I get in. Why not go? Reasons below.

You would probably have no trouble getting into a top MD only program. Since the name of the school seems to be more important to you than the the PhD, perhaps you should consider that.

See, I wasn't so focused on names in the beginning of the cycle. I explicitly said "I'd rather go to Upstate than reapply". But after seeing tons of people from my no-name school getting interviews from top 20 schools and not getting in despite being "qualified on paper", I just would hate to see this repeating again come residency. That's why I'm considering withdrawing.

 

[gutonc]

Would have completed 1 year of full time research by June 2015, which hopefully will have yielded publications (will choose my lab carefully this time).

Well...there's a lot up in the air on that one. I realize this is what you'd like to do...not sure how realistic it is. And if your entire "quit now, reapply later" strategy hinges on it...I just don't see it being a good bet.

See, I wasn't so focused on names in the beginning of the cycle. I explicitly said "I'd rather go to Upstate than reapply". But after seeing tons of people from my no-name school getting interviews from top 20 schools and not getting in despite being "qualified on paper", I just would hate to see this repeating again come residency. That's why I'm considering withdrawing.

You're not thinking about it correctly. The residency game is much different from the med school game. It's much easier for a great student from a crap med school (like mine!) to get a residency at a top program than it is for a great undergrad from a crap school (like yours apparently) to get into a top med school.

Honestly, if you withdraw now, you're more than likely withdrawing forever.

 

[mynameistoolong]

It's much easier for a great student from a crap med school (like mine!) to get a residency at a top program than it is for a great undergrad from a crap school (like yours apparently) to get into a top med school.

Well, if this were true then I would have no concerns going anywhere. But the NRMP Program Director Survey seems to indicate that at least some specialties consider "Graduate of highly regarded U.S. medical school" as an important factor (some more than others), and I would guess top programs like MGH/Hopkins/UCSF would be most guilty of this. All I want is to end this cycle of mediocrity—mediocre college, mediocre med school, mediocre residency, mediocre career... How and when can I break out of this cycle?

Seem like one's best effort at a mediocre undergrad gives you a not-so-good chance at breaking into a top 10 (last year, my undergrad's best success stories—of 7,000 undergrads—were someone who got into Mayo and another off the waitlist at WashU). Maybe it's ok to be mediocre if you want to go into PP (hence the 'go to cheapest school, work your arse off' philosophy of a lot of people in pre-allo), since a radiologist is a radiologist whether from MGH or from Podunk residency program, but success in the basic science is so tied to name recognition (like the environment scoring for R01s; the PNAS old-boy network) I'm not sure I can just ignore the game and expect to be successful..

Alas, this is all hypothetical and for all we know I will be a reapplicant regardless of what I choose.

 

[quebaldy]

FWIW I am about to graduate from a public university that most people probably wouldn't even call mediocre (not even top 100 on US news) and the lab I've been with for the past three years hasn't netted me a single publication. On the other hand, I have been quite successful with my applications this year, both on the MD and MSTP side of things (anecdotal evidence obviously but there you go). You're obviously an excellent applicant with an unfortunate situation, but in my opinion it's your international status that's really holding you back, not you undergrad pedigree or lack of publications (although I'm sure more pubs could only help).

If you're sure you don't want to attend any of the places where you're sitting on the waitlist, then withdraw. You don't want to be at a place you'll resent for 8 years. I'd assume a year of productive research would make you somewhat more attractive to adcoms, but my instinct is that you'll likely face the same challenges when you reapply MSTP. Is an MD followed by research-track residency/loan repayment off the table?

 

[mynameistoolong]

Is an MD followed by research-track residency/loan repayment off the table?

Loans in general are off the table for me (no U.S. cosigner). I'm waiting to hear back from WashU MD but unless they give me a scholarship my family can't come up with $300k even if we sell our house (they ask internationals to put 4 years of cost of attendance into an escrow account). Also waiting to hear back from UCLA MD. I got flat out rejected by Yale MD post-interview this week (and my SO by Harvard MD on the same day), which probably fueled this resentment about pedigree (Yale's class is ~20% international, so that's not holding me back there)... I wish I had your cycle

 

[gbwillner]

This is a terrible idea. Take any acceptance you can get and move on with your life. We already know your major liability is your status, and this won't change a year from now. The time when international students were everywhere has passed, and you missed the boat.

You will have an opportunity to advance to top-tier institutions at every step of this path, it does not have to come all at once right now.

 

[quebaldy]

I got flat out rejected by Yale MD post-interview this week (and my SO by Harvard MD on the same day), which probably fueled this resentment about pedigree (Yale's class is 20-30% international, so that's not holding me back there)...

Ouch...

Yeah, I never realized how hard they make this process for international students. I can't imagine how other international MD students are footing the bill without reasonable access to loans. Hopefully WashU comes through for you!

 

[mynameistoolong]

The time when international students were everywhere has passed, and you missed the boat.

Welp. I guess that's that.

Yeah, I never realized how hard they make this process for international students. I can't imagine how other international MD students are footing the bill without reasonable access to loans. Hopefully WashU comes through for you!

Yale was especially painful because they're the only MD school (+Hopkins, but no interview there) to give financial aid to internationals...


Well, I guess this is a highly risky proposition. I'll hold it off for now but still prepare for a reapplication...

 

[Fencer]

... coming from a not-so-selective state school ...

I take an issue with this... Your institution has a terrific biomedical research reputation. It has a MSTP and CTSA NIH awards and ranks nationally in the top 30 medical schools by NIH funding, and top 10 universities for all research expenditures. The undergraduate college is not so selective for in-state residents, but highly selective for out-of-state residents.

 

[gutonc]

Seem like one's best effort at a mediocre undergrad gives you a not-so-good chance at breaking into a top 10 (last year, my undergrad's best success stories—of 7,000 undergrads—were someone who got into Mayo and another off the waitlist at WashU). Maybe it's ok to be mediocre if you want to go into PP (hence the 'go to cheapest school, work your arse off' philosophy of a lot of people in pre-allo), since a radiologist is a radiologist whether from MGH or from Podunk residency program, but success in the basic science is so tied to name recognition (like the environment scoring for R01s; the PNAS old-boy network) I'm not sure I can just ignore the game and expect to be successful..

Well, you might not ignore the game and still not be successful.

It's possible to have a good career career coming from a mediocre MD/PhD by getting a better residency, and fellowship is another opportunity to move "up the ladder" as well. But you're not having any kind of a career, mediocre or otherwise, if you don't get in somewhere.

 

[uniqenam]

I take an issue with this... Your institution has a terrific biomedical research reputation. It has a MSTP and CTSA NIH awards and ranks nationally in the top 30 medical schools by NIH funding, and top 10 universities for all research expenditures. The undergraduate college is not so selective for in-state residents, but highly selective for out-of-state residents.

Wisconsin? Sounds like Wisconsin...I know they have a huge amount of research expenditures. If not I'm not sure what other midwestern public school fits the bill...and if that's the case, Wisconsin is pretty well-regarded, at least from what I know.

 

[Student's T]

Wisconsin is a great school and has a number of fantastic research programs (as evidenced by the funding). I find it hard to believe attending Wisconsin would have a negative impact on anybody's application, and if so, it's probably at a program run by a bunch of elitist idiots that you don't want to attend anyway. I have met many people from Wisconsin in faculty, fellow, and student positions at multiple strong medical schools. For the record, I have no affiliation with Wisconsin.

I think they concern about being "forced" into a program in an absolutely undesirable location is very valid, but I can't offer any advice as to how to best handle the situation.

 

[ratherbefishing]

The training is long enough. If you have the chance to start now, you should. Not sure why you think only top programs can put out quality physician scientists. Your phd is unlikely to define your research success, but how well you can get a starter grant during postdoc (eg K08). Like others have said, you can make the step up to "top" for residency.

 

[ilikeargyle]

.

 

[Maebea]

The problem is not Wisconsin; it ranks 25th among MD-PhD program feeder institutions. Here are the top 50 for the 2005-20012 period:

Undergraduate Institution
Harvard University, 158
Stanford University, 132
Johns Hopkins University, 130
California-Berkeley, University of, 129
Cornell University, 121
Yale University, 114
Massachusetts Inst. of Tech., 103
California-Los Angeles, University of, 100
Washington University in St. Louis, 98
Pennsylvania, University of, 97
Duke University, 96
Columbia University, 89
Michigan, University of, 82
California-San Diego, University of, 66
Chicago, University of, 63
Brown University, 60
Princeton University, 60
Illinois, University of, 57
Northwestern University-Evanston, 56
Virginia, University of, 50
Washington, University of, 50
Texas-Austin, University of, 49
Maryland-Baltimore County, University of, 47
Wisconsin-Madison, University of, 47
Brigham Young University, 45
Case Western Reserve University, 44
North Carolina-Chapel Hill, University of, 44
Maryland, University of, 40
Rice University, 38
Rochester, University of, 38
Minnesota, University of, 35
Pittsburgh, University of, 34
New York University, 32
Notre Dame, University of, 32
Rutgers State University, 32
Iowa, University of, 31
Dartmouth College, 30
Vanderbilt University, 30
California-Irvine, University of, 29
Colorado-Boulder, University of, 29
Emory University, 29
Boston University, 28
California Institute of Technology, 28
Pennsylvania State University, 28
Florida, University of, 27
Pomona College, 27
Texas A & M University, 27
Michigan State University, 26
Swarthmore College, 26
Arizona, University of, 25

 

[mTORC]

The problem is not Wisconsin; it ranks 25th among MD-PhD program feeder institutions. Here are the top 50 for the 2005-20012 period:

Undergraduate Institution
Harvard University, 158
Stanford University, 132
Johns Hopkins University, 130
California-Berkeley, University of, 129
Cornell University, 121
Yale University, 114
Massachusetts Inst. of Tech., 103
California-Los Angeles, University of, 100
Washington University in St. Louis, 98
Pennsylvania, University of, 97
Duke University, 96
Columbia University, 89
Michigan, University of, 82
California-San Diego, University of, 66
Chicago, University of, 63
Brown University, 60
Princeton University, 60
Illinois, University of, 57
Northwestern University-Evanston, 56
Virginia, University of, 50
Washington, University of, 50
Texas-Austin, University of, 49
Maryland-Baltimore County, University of, 47
Wisconsin-Madison, University of, 47
Brigham Young University, 45
Case Western Reserve University, 44
North Carolina-Chapel Hill, University of, 44
Maryland, University of, 40
Rice University, 38
Rochester, University of, 38
Minnesota, University of, 35
Pittsburgh, University of, 34
New York University, 32
Notre Dame, University of, 32
Rutgers State University, 32
Iowa, University of, 31
Dartmouth College, 30
Vanderbilt University, 30
California-Irvine, University of, 29
Colorado-Boulder, University of, 29
Emory University, 29
Boston University, 28
California Institute of Technology, 28
Pennsylvania State University, 28
Florida, University of, 27
Pomona College, 27
Texas A & M University, 27
Michigan State University, 26
Swarthmore College, 26
Arizona, University of, 25

Directors have access to such awesome information. Thanks for sharing!

 

[gbwillner]

I wonder how the total net number of MD/PhD students have changed over time. When I started, there were only 33 MSTP programs. It seems like a lot more now. Where do all these people go on the back end?

 

[Patros]

I wonder how the total net number of MD/PhD students have changed over time. When I started, there were only 33 MSTP programs. It seems like a lot more now. Where do all these people go on the back end?

Well there's 43 now, so it's more-or-less proportional to the increase in total number of medical schools, I think. However there are probably many more competitive non-MSTP MD/PhD's than from your day (such as the illustrious UT-San Antonio program, ahem).

 

[beyondthewheel]

The problem is not Wisconsin; it ranks 25th among MD-PhD program feeder institutions. Here are the top 50 for the 2005-20012 period:

Undergraduate Institution
Harvard University, 158
Stanford University, 132
Johns Hopkins University, 130
California-Berkeley, University of, 129
Cornell University, 121
Yale University, 114
Massachusetts Inst. of Tech., 103
California-Los Angeles, University of, 100
Washington University in St. Louis, 98
Pennsylvania, University of, 97
Duke University, 96
Columbia University, 89
Michigan, University of, 82
California-San Diego, University of, 66
Chicago, University of, 63
Brown University, 60
Princeton University, 60
Illinois, University of, 57
Northwestern University-Evanston, 56
Virginia, University of, 50
Washington, University of, 50
Texas-Austin, University of, 49
Maryland-Baltimore County, University of, 47
Wisconsin-Madison, University of, 47
Brigham Young University, 45
Case Western Reserve University, 44
North Carolina-Chapel Hill, University of, 44
Maryland, University of, 40
Rice University, 38
Rochester, University of, 38
Minnesota, University of, 35
Pittsburgh, University of, 34
New York University, 32
Notre Dame, University of, 32
Rutgers State University, 32
Iowa, University of, 31
Dartmouth College, 30
Vanderbilt University, 30
California-Irvine, University of, 29
Colorado-Boulder, University of, 29
Emory University, 29
Boston University, 28
California Institute of Technology, 28
Pennsylvania State University, 28
Florida, University of, 27
Pomona College, 27
Texas A & M University, 27
Michigan State University, 26
Swarthmore College, 26
Arizona, University of, 25

Wow. I guess I've been lucky coming from a state agriculture/tech school.

 

[mynameistoolong]

Regardless of whether I'm from Wisconsin , thanks everyone for the advice.


While still far from perfect, I think it may better to control for school size (data from Wikipedia) when talking about 'top' feeder schools:

School, Matriculant, Population, M/P
Caltech, 28, 978, 2.863%
MIT, 103, 4384, 2.349%
Harvard, 158, 7200, 2.194%
Hopkins, 130, 6023, 2.158%
Yale, 114, 5414, 2.106%
Stanford, 132, 6980, 1.891%
Swarthmore, 26, 1545, 1.683%
Pomona, 27, 1607, 1.680%
Duke, 96, 6495, 1.478%
Wash U, 98, 7303, 1.342%
Chicago, 63, 5134, 1.227%
Princeton, 60, 5336, 1.124%
Columbia, 89, 8365, 1.064%
Case, 44, 4227, 1.041%
Rice, 38, 3810, 0.997%
Brown, 60, 6133, 0.978%
Penn, 97, 10301, 0.942%
Cornell, 121, 13935, 0.868%
Dartmouth, 30, 4194, 0.715%
Rochester, 38, 5643, 0.673%
Northwestern, 56, 8459, 0.662%
Berkeley, 129, 25951, 0.497%
Vanderbilt, 30, 6796, 0.441%
UMBC, 47, 10953, 0.429%
Notre Dame, 32, 8371, 0.382%
Emory, 29, 7836, 0.370%
UCLA, 100, 28674, 0.349%
Virginia, 50, 14641, 0.342%
Michigan, 82, 27979, 0.293%
UCSD, 66, 23805, 0.277%
UNC, 44, 18579, 0.237%
Pittsburgh, 34, 18427, 0.185%
Boston, 28, 15803, 0.177%
Illinois, 57, 32281, 0.177%
NYU, 32, 19401, 0.165%
Wisconsin, 47, 28897, 0.163%
Washington, 50, 30790, 0.162%
BYU, 45, 27978, 0.161%
Maryland, 40, 26826, 0.149%
Iowa, 31, 21974, 0.141%
UC-Irvine, 29, 22216, 0.131%
UT-Austin, 49, 38463, 0.127%
Minnesota, 35, 30375, 0.115%
UC-Boulder, 29, 25981, 0.112%
Florida, 27, 32776, 0.082%
Arizona, 25, 31565, 0.079%
Rutgers, 32, 43967, 0.073%
Michigan State, 26, 36675, 0.071%
Texas A & M, 27, 44570, 0.061%
Penn State, 28, 49293, 0.057%

Wisconsin falls to 37th, which still isn't too bad. But notice how the top 20 becomes all private? (Of course, publics tend to be larger and less competitive, so applicant caliber probably accounts for some of this)

 

[gutonc]

You know...I've been supportive of you through this, but if this is how you truly feel about what is clearly a top 10 public university and a top 50 (no matter how you slice it) American university (i.e. beneath you and hardly worthy of your massive intellect), then you deserve whatever you do or don't get.

You're clearly not going to be happy anywhere other than Hopkins.

So perhaps it's time for either a new plan or a touch of introspection.

 

[mynameistoolong]

You know...I've been supportive of you through this, but if this is how you truly feel about what is clearly a top 10 public university and a top 50 (no matter how you slice it) American university (i.e. beneath you and hardly worthy of your massive intellect), then you deserve whatever you do or don't get.

You're clearly not going to be happy anywhere other than Hopkins.

So perhaps it's time for either a new plan or a touch of introspection.

🤔 I didn't mean for it to come off that way... I will take whatever I get and be happy; I am just frustrated with how everything has turned out and didn't want more of the same in the future. Sorry if I came off as arrogant and entitled 🙁

 

[Patros]

🤔 I didn't mean for it to come off that way... I will take whatever I get and be happy; I am just frustrated with how everything has turned out and didn't want more of the same in the future. Sorry if I came off as arrogant and entitled 🙁

Nah dude, I can empathize. When my rejections started rolling in, I quickly became bitter too. I blamed my undergrad (which mind you, is nowhere near the top quartile at anything), I blamed my PI for not crediting me on any publications, I blamed my circumstances for not having more money/opportunities/whatever. And of course, the worst part is watching your friends/acquaintances go further even though they may not be innately smarter or more talented than you.

There isn't really a silver lining. You did your best, and I think you deserve to get in somewhere, although it may not happen this year. However like others said, it is a bit absurd to start getting picky when your application cycle went like this. If you end up not getting anywhere, perhaps consider beefing up the volunteering and clinical exposure hours for a pure-MD application next time around.

 

[_drinkcoffee_]

Wisconsin? Sounds like Wisconsin...I know they have a huge amount of research expenditures. If not I'm not sure what other midwestern public school fits the bill...and if that's the case, Wisconsin is pretty well-regarded, at least from what I know.

I agree. If this person is coming from Wisconsin, he's incorrect. Friend of a friend from Wisconsin-Madison is in Hopkin's MSTP now. U of Wisconsin is a great school.

The other school that fits the bill would be Michigan. If he/she's from UMich and complaining...

 

[JLC]

IMO you have many strenghs. Your MCAT is avg at top schools (at Hopkins the avg GPA/MCAT for MD class is 3.9,/36, I believe MSTP avg is 3.9/40) so that isn't a problem (GPA is a little low though esp from a state school). I'm more surprised you haven't heard back from any schools in the top 20, which seems to suggest that something else is amiss. Before you worry about MSTP, IMO as an MD applicant you may need to realize you probably don't have enough volunteer or hospital exp. However your research is your biggest weakpoint for MSTP, I'm unsure of the MSTP class, but almost 25% of the MD class have publications (maybe 5% have a first author) at Hopkins. Regardless of what you do, you will go to med school. I think everybody here can understand disappointment. At the same time, if you haven't heard from schools where you hoped to go, its a good time to realize that you are among some of the brightest minds in the country competing for the same spots. It sounds like you are still waiting for news from awesome places. I wouldn't worry too much. I'm actually shocked that you would consider withdrawing from waitlist and I think thats a bad idea. You can always refuse an acceptance later. Wtihdrawing from waitlist is a premature reason. Honestly, if you could tell us which schools you've heard back from, members here could help inform you what a MD/PhD program could offer you from each of those school.

 

[Reckoner]

I'm more surprised you haven't heard back from any schools in the top 20, which seems to suggest that something else is amiss.

OP is an international applicant. The consensus seems to be that's his biggest weakness.

Honestly, if you could tell us which schools you've heard back from, members here could help inform you what a MD/PhD program could offer you from each of those school.

MDapplicants profile: http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=26850

 

[Doc3]

I also would not withdraw from any waitlists at the moment. I think it is a good idea to be patient and see if you end up getting off the waitlist at Sinai or UTSW. Since they are in the top 25, I am guessing that you would be ecstatic to attend either of those programs.

Maybe Fencer can comment about this, but the interview might be the main problem. I was waitlisted at programs for which I did not think I interviewed particularly well. I think that the international status becomes moot once the OP gets an interview invite. Taking a couple of years off doing full-time research might help. For me, conducting research full-time definitely helped me speak more intelligently about research.

 

[mynameistoolong]

I never intended to withdraw from Sinai or UTSW—ecstatic would be an understatement for how I would feel if I got into any of those two programs (unfortunately I had been informed that I would not get off the WL at Sinai in February). I have sent multiple LOIs to UTSW to no response so far. In the end, I am still on all the WLs I was originally on at this point.

I disagree that international status becomes moot after the II; I believe the ratio of II to matriculation for internationals would support this. I do have suspicions, though, that interviews were a problem for me, since in addition to all the WLs I was also rejected post-interview at a school that does not discriminate against internationals (Yale MD).