Women in Neurosurgery

[dragonfly99]

Oh yeah,
as far as one of the posts above...
neurosurg is competitive to get in to, but not as much as some other surgical fields (b/c of the crappy lifestyle in general, especially during residency).
I think the few people applying to neurosurg tend to be very hard core, and also neurosurgeons are very smart and the faculty I think are very picky about who they will take and they try to "weed out" people they think don't have it, even before the application process. I am surprised there were even 300 applicants for 180 spots...would have thought the match ratio/rate would have been even higher. I don't think we had anybody in my class or the class in front of me who applied to neurosurg and didn't match...BUT we only had a couple people per year even applying either, after they saw how hard the residents and attendings worked, and how the attendings treated the neurosurg residents at my institution (not so great IMHO).

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[JeffLebowski]

to the original poster:
I think you shouldn't assume that there will be no way to have any kids if you become a neurosurgeon. However, you should assume things will be tough, and that your spouse will have to be very understanding. The work hours here in the US are different than Australia and Europe, so I don't think we can compare ourselves or our work schedules to folks over there. You shouldn't give up on any field at this point in your med school career - just look around, get as much experience as you can, and try to find what is best for you and what you are good at. You can always have neurology as a backup, or perhaps another surgical field that wouldn't be quite as hard core (i.e. optho or urology, though those are competitive to get in to).

To Lebowski: I don't think you should assume that every field with a low % of women has a low % just because the women "aren't interested". That's kind of like assuming there is a super low number of African American doctors because black people "just aren't interested" in becoming doctors. These types of situations are complex. I'm not saying some women (and men) aren't deterred from such fields as surgical fields and cardiology, etc. by the long work hours. However, I think other factors, such as a lack of role models (we had zero female neurosurgeons at my medical school, and one female neurosurgery resident in the entire program), and in some cases discrimination (i.e. when I was a student I had some ortho residents and attendings who said they didn't think women should do orthopedics and don't know "why a woman would ever want to do this anyway"). I think being female in a predominantly male field (esp. one with <15% women or so) can make it hard to network, etc. in some cases, because some men (particularly the older attendings) don't seem to "get it" that a woman could be just as interested in the field, just as ambitious and hard working. Also, you said that nobody is concerned that not many men are entering OB. I disagree. I personally was concerned when I was in med school that so few people (in general) were going in to OB, and think it would be good if more men would pursue OB. I think we need as many good OB's as we can get, including men. I have heard some OB programs are now trying to recruit more men,FYI.

I do think the original poster needs to realize she'll probably need to be REALLY hard core to stay in neurosurgery (this = true for men also) and that female surgeons tend to have to be a little more assertive than males to get things done. This holds true a bit in some other specialties but I don't think it's to the same degree. It sucks that some people label an assertive female doc "bitch" but that's just the way it is.

No one said women aren't going into NSG solely because they're not interested. I said lifestyle is clearly a more significant factor for women, and people for whom lifestyle is a more important factor tend to gravitate away from NSG. The race argument is pretty dissimilar...we're literally talking about equally academically and privileged groups choosing different fields within the same white-collar profession (medicine). You can argue about discrimination if you want, but I think it's a little too PC to try to fill out each specialty with 50% women and 50% men simply because that's the population distribution. It's fine to be sensitive to the fact that capable applicants have diverse needs and backgrounds, it's quite another to take that to the next step and impose further inequities by trying to use preferential treatment incentives to "attract" them. Check out that other orthopedic surgery forum ("orthogate.com" or something)...there's women posting about how they heard women were underrepresented and they heard that programs were actively seeking them, so they might have a better shot than men even with lower numbers...obviously it was met with lots of acrimony. I agree that potential barriers to certain population subgroups should be minimized, but I refuse to think that NSG is sexist because they haven't gone far enough out of their way to provide you with gender-specific role models.

 

[Spine Specialist]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/featu...al-tools-wn-0924-xsep24,0,7922058,print.story






.

 

[Spine Specialist]

www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-rosseau-surgeon-general-dec10,0,7304769.story

chicagotribune.com

Barack Obama considering Chicago neurosurgeon Gail Rosseau as surgeon general

Assistant professor at Rush University Medical Center being vetted

By Bruce Japsen

Tribune reporter

December 10, 2008


Chicago neurosurgeon Dr. Gail Rosseau, an early supporter of President-elect Barack Obama's, is being considered to be the next U.S. surgeon general.

One of 300 female neurosurgeons nationwide, Rosseau, 52, is chief of surgery at the Neurologic and Orthopedic Institute of Chicago and an assistant professor of neurosurgery at Rush University Medical Center, the teaching hospital on Chicago's West Side. The River Forest resident has two children, and her husband is an orthopedic surgeon.

When reached Tuesday, Rosseau said it was "early in the [vetting] process," adding that she was delighted she is being considered and would be willing to serve Obama's administration in any way he feels that she could be of use.

The surgeon general is a high-profile post and seen as an administration's bully pulpit when it comes to health issues that range from combating obesity to curtailing smoking.

Rosseau has been quoted widely and has had work published on topics related to neurosurgery and women's health issues. Rosseau is also a registered nurse.

It's unclear whether other candidates are being considered. A spokeswoman with Obama's transition team had no comment.

The medical community cheered the possibility of Rosseau rising to become one of the nation's top public health advocates.

"She is a trailblazing neurosurgeon who is very committed to her profession, healthy lifestyles, disease and trauma prevention and the health of the public," said Dr. Nancy Nielsen, president of the American Medical Association. "I know her well, and she is also a terrific person and role model."

At Rush, her colleagues were thrilled. "We are proud that a member of the Rush University Medical Center faculty is being considered for this national position," said Dr. Thomas A. Deutsch, dean of Rush Medical College and senior vice president of medical affairs at Rush University Medical Center.

[email protected]

 

[neurochirrurgie]

true..
i'm a woman, neurosurgery resident, just married to a very understanding man, wish to have kids during or/and after my residency time..
clearly,it's not easy, needs commitment and a lot of efforts..
but it really worth the hard work....
just have faith in what you believe, including your hope and dreams, and try hard not to give them up..
good luck !

 

[Bombrainiac]

If you are truly interested in NS, you'll find the match result of 2008 and how much % of US grad is matching with Step 1 score of much lower than not only plastic and derm but also lower than rad onc.

as far as female, AANS sponsers research scholorship for 15 med students every year in filed of neuroscience every year. Up till last year, all were awarded to male students but this year about half were awarded to female students, which is probably more due to increase in female intrest to this field.

Plus, as opposed to about 5% of practicing female NS, 10% (although still very small) of NS residents are females.

So the trend of more female getting into the field is present. Considering the number of male applicants probably would stay the same, so I predicted that the number of applicants will increase very soon.

To look at just numbers to determine the competitiveness of a field is a novice mistake. Neurosurgery has the most competitive field of applicants, period. You have to realize that these applicants are applying with multiple graduate degrees, REAL research and pubs (not just a case report or illustration), national awards, high scores, etc. etc, and EVERY ONE of them fits this description. And then, to match into a top 20 program makes your competition even more fierce. In many other specialties (i.e. plastics, ortho), there is a large portion of applicants that have NO business applying in the first place, and they double-apply to general surgery much of the time. Neurosurgery applicants are self-selective from the beginning--it's obvious which ones are serious applicants.
Women in neurosurgery are fantastic and I support them 100%. Women have that sixth sense that men often lack when assessing a patient, and I have found that the female neurosurgeons I have worked with have been wonderful. However, if in a program with 2 residents per year, and one of your residents is a female, and she gets pregnant and has to take leave, the unfortunate reality is that the other residents get screwed since there is not enough back-up. And I have seen many female residents quit surgical residencies, because they realize that it is not conducive to family life. And who can blame them? Not me. The thing to think about, though, is the fact that any resident, male or female, who matches into a competitive residency and then quits has forsaken the other applicants whose spot they took, and also they increase the workload on the remaining residents, especially in neurosurgery since there are so few residents to begin with and way too much demand.

Women in neurosurgery
Potential for high rate of attrition amongst women in surgical fields

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Neurosurgery has the most competitive field of applicants, period. You have to realize that these applicants are applying with multiple graduate degrees, REAL research and pubs (not just a case report or illustration), national awards, high scores, etc. etc, and EVERY ONE of them fits this description. And then, to match into a top 20 program makes your competition even more fierce. In many other specialties (i.e. plastics, ortho), there is a large portion of applicants that have NO business applying in the first place, and they double-apply to general surgery much of the time. Neurosurgery applicants are self-selective from the beginning--it's obvious which ones are serious applicants.

You realize that all of the stats from Charting Outcomes, etc are for candidates who have at least one interview and have ranked at least one program, right? Not just people who apply as Hail Marys to Famous University PRS/Ortho Residency.

I'm curious why you think that neurosurgery alone, of all the competitive surgical subspecialties, doesn't draw sub-par applicants. The requirements describing research (not just chart reviews) certainly hold constant across the fields.

 

[Samoa]

I'm sure that the 2008-9 Charting Outcomes report will confirm that plastics is more competitive than neurosurgery, as a matter of match percentage. With regard to Step 1, research and AOA, it remains to be seen. Neurosurgery has grown steadily more competitive, even as more spots are added and more programs opened each year.

The problem with neurosurgery is that there's no good backup field, like there is for plastics. So it feels like an all-or-nothing decision. You either go all-out down the road of away rotations, research and recommendations, or you decide sometime in 3rd year to go another route entirely. Relatively few neurosurgery applicants double-apply in another field, because nothing you've done for neurosurgery is really applicable to anything else. Whereas most plastics applicants apply in gen surg as a backup, and can use most of the same LORs and research in support of their gen surg application. It makes perfect sense, because matching in gen surg doesn't preclude a career in plastics. You can always do a fellowship afterward.

So those kinds of things conspire to make it easier for a poorly qualified applicant to apply in plastics. And some subset of them will get an interview or two, which they will then rank at the top of their list. They have no real chance of actually matching, but they're counted in the plastics numbers, rather than gen surg, because they ranked a PRS program #1.

But keep in mind that match stats for neurosurgery have been calculated in the past using a different methodology than that for Charting Outcomes, because it's always been an entirely separate match. It remains to be seen what the stats will look like as part of the NRMP's process. However, most people use the ENT numbers as a proxy, and I suspect they will be similar to those when the report is out.

 

[Bombrainiac]

I'm sure that the 2008-9 Charting Outcomes report will confirm that plastics is more competitive than neurosurgery, as a matter of match percentage. With regard to Step 1, research and AOA, it remains to be seen. Neurosurgery has grown steadily more competitive, even as more spots are added and more programs opened each year.

The problem with neurosurgery is that there's no good backup field, like there is for plastics. So it feels like an all-or-nothing decision. You either go all-out down the road of away rotations, research and recommendations, or you decide sometime in 3rd year to go another route entirely. Relatively few neurosurgery applicants double-apply in another field, because nothing you've done for neurosurgery is really applicable to anything else. Whereas most plastics applicants apply in gen surg as a backup, and can use most of the same LORs and research in support of their gen surg application. It makes perfect sense, because matching in gen surg doesn't preclude a career in plastics. You can always do a fellowship afterward.

So those kinds of things conspire to make it easier for a poorly qualified applicant to apply in plastics. And some subset of them will get an interview or two, which they will then rank at the top of their list. They have no real chance of actually matching, but they're counted in the plastics numbers, rather than gen surg, because they ranked a PRS program #1.

But keep in mind that match stats for neurosurgery have been calculated in the past using a different methodology than that for Charting Outcomes, because it's always been an entirely separate match. It remains to be seen what the stats will look like as part of the NRMP's process. However, most people use the ENT numbers as a proxy, and I suspect they will be similar to those when the report is out.

In addition, neurosurgery residency is a long haul (the longest actually) and program directors want to know that their applicants have the dedication required to finish a long, rigorous residency AS WELL as the ability to contribute to the field in the long-run. It can actually hurt an applicant to have publications in another field--no joke. There's no way to confirm this with statistics, but I bet if you take the top 30 neurosurgery applicants in the country and put them against the top 30 applicants in the country for any other field, the difference will amaze you. Neurosurgery lends itself to attract those who are extreme, intense, and very accomplished. It is an extremely academic field, and it tends to attract applicants who are more serious about their dedication to their field. This is why I feel neurosurgery is more self-selective and attracts an outstanding group of applicants each year. But back to the topic of this particular thread, we still would love to see more women apply into neurosurgery. And the neurosurgical community needs to figure out a way to make the lifestyle of a neurosurgeon not only more conducive to women who want to be mothers, but also to men who want to be fathers. The high divorce rates and time away from home no doubt contribute to many potentially great applicants heading for other fields like radiology or dermatology and away from fields like neurosurgery or orthopedics (the so-called "brain drain"). I, for one, want to be a very active part of my childrens' lives, and my co-residents are all family-oriented and work hard to have healthy, well-rounded lives. But, it is a struggle to say the least.

 

[maxheadroom]

What is this, some major-league pissing contest? Listen, kids, both are great fields with lots of prestige and money. Hell, I tip my hat to anyone who does a crani.

Both fields have very smart, motivated, accomplished applicants who fight really hard for a few, coveted positions.

 

[Samoa]

What is this, some major-league pissing contest? Listen, kids, both are great fields with lots of prestige and money. Hell, I tip my hat to anyone who does a crani.

Both fields have very smart, motivated, accomplished applicants who fight really hard for a few, coveted positions.

I don't think it's engaging in a pissing contest to discuss whether match percentages are a true reflection of the quality of the applicant pool. Bombrainiac makes a legitimate point about whether it's more appropriate to compare the top applicants in each field rather than the average applicant, or even matched applicant.

The pool of matched applicants for plastics appears to me lot more homogenous than neurosurgery. You hardly ever run across a plastics resident and ask yourself, how the hell did this guy get a spot in plastics? Whereas this does happen in neurosurgery.

But they draw very different kinds of people. And having made the decision to go into one field vs the other, you try your best to tailor your application toward what's successful in that field. So I'm not sure a valid comparison can be made.

However, I'd like to point out that if this neurosurgery thread in the neurosurgery forum were comprised entirely of neurosurgeon posts, no one would be calling it a pissing contest. This would just be a discussion among neurosurgeons of whether match statistics are a true reflection of the competitiveness of the field, using plastics as a counterexample.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

All very good points. I agree that the lack of any suitable backup plan (neurology, perhaps? it could accommodate the research easily) makes applicants take an all-or-none approach.

I won't speak for ortho, but I do agree that plastics residents on average tend to be more homogeneous. Perhaps that's why the average Step 1 score and AOA %age are higher, because in many cases that's all it takes. Not that many applicants have significant research under their belts, though I think they are very intense, competitive and driven.

My school cranks out neurosurgeons like no other (56 from 2000-9) and they usually match very well. No one sort of stumbles into neurosurgery-- they know they want to do it from day 1, and clock up the requisite research, shadowing, contact with faculty, etc as soon as they matriculate. I would say that's one distinct difference between plastics and neurosurgery, the fact that people are almost single-mindedly dedicated to it from the get-go. There are, of course, people who know they want to be plastic surgeons from pre-med, but their motivations are usually quite different and I'd wager that their success rates are lower.

 

[Ella Shepherd]

Juggling Neurosurgery and Being a Mom

Check it out.

 

[sunset823]

I've not read this entire thread and don't know if this got posted, but the current chair of neurosurgery at UMichigan is female, and is married with kids:

http://www2.med.umich.edu/departmen...ders/provider_profile.cfm?individual_id=11436

 

[schrizto]

A book that is related to women in neurosurgery: Walking Out on the Boys by Frances K. Conley, a female neurosurgeon who is a professor at Stanford. She's a little cynical.

 

[ytc110]

Hi to all the NS-lovers,

I am heading to AANS meeting next week from Michigan. It is sort of the last minute decision. Please let me know if you would like to ride together or share a room. I plan to leave on Friday PM from Ann Arbor. Would love to have someone to chat about NS or anything else.


Tina (M1 MD/PhD student).

 

[Leo Aquarius]

All very good points. I agree that the lack of any suitable backup plan (neurology, perhaps? it could accommodate the research easily) makes applicants take an all-or-none approach.

I won't speak for ortho, but I do agree that plastics residents on average tend to be more homogeneous. Perhaps that's why the average Step 1 score and AOA %age are higher, because in many cases that's all it takes. Not that many applicants have significant research under their belts, though I think they are very intense, competitive and driven.

My school cranks out neurosurgeons like no other (56 from 2000-9) and they usually match very well. No one sort of stumbles into neurosurgery-- they know they want to do it from day 1, and clock up the requisite research, shadowing, contact with faculty, etc as soon as they matriculate. I would say that's one distinct difference between plastics and neurosurgery, the fact that people are almost single-mindedly dedicated to it from the get-go. There are, of course, people who know they want to be plastic surgeons from pre-med, but their motivations are usually quite different and I'd wager that their success rates are lower.

Let me guess, you went to Columbia.

 

[GBMg4]

You can also consider going into:
1) neurology and a subsequent neuro-oncology fellowship
2) IM + hemo onc + neuro onc fellowship

If you want to work with brain tumors. There is a great need for more neuro-oncs.

 

[MDDoubleD]

I know women in neurosurgery are hard to come by, so I have started this forum for us to share our thoughts and experiences. I must admit I am just starting my medical school career this fall at UCLA. However, I have had a passion for neurosurgery for many years now, especially after my brother was diagnosed with a brain tumor and the miraculous work of a neurosurgeon saved his life. I have read on other posts that female neurosurgeons must choose to have either a career or a family, that having the two is impossible. The two female medical students I know who are pursuing neurosurgery have both resigned themselves to not having children. I find this to be kind of depressing. Is it really impossible to balance both a career in neurosurgery and a family? I value family and enjoyment of life as much as I do my career, and I cannot imagine discarding one for the other. I would love to hear some female neurosurgeons' perspectives. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Male or female, a neurosurgeon will likely never have a great family life. Sorry.
Every doctor (especially any surgeon) saves life, if you want to do that, you can work as an ER doc, you'll have time for a family and save a dozen lives a shift. There's no need to be a neurosurgeon, but you have all of med school to decide.

 

[neusu]

Hi to all the NS-lovers,

I am heading to AANS meeting next week from Michigan. It is sort of the last minute decision. Please let me know if you would like to ride together or share a room. I plan to leave on Friday PM from Ann Arbor. Would love to have someone to chat about NS or anything else.


Tina (M1 MD/PhD student).

I'd recommend attending the WINS events. Great opportunity to network and make friends.

 

[ytc110]

I know women in neurosurgery are hard to come by, so I have started this forum for us to share our thoughts and experiences. I must admit I am just starting my medical school career this fall at UCLA. However, I have had a passion for neurosurgery for many years now, especially after my brother was diagnosed with a brain tumor and the miraculous work of a neurosurgeon saved his life. I have read on other posts that female neurosurgeons must choose to have either a career or a family, that having the two is impossible. The two female medical students I know who are pursuing neurosurgery have both resigned themselves to not having children. I find this to be kind of depressing. Is it really impossible to balance both a career in neurosurgery and a family? I value family and enjoyment of life as much as I do my career, and I cannot imagine discarding one for the other. I would love to hear some female neurosurgeons' perspectives. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Hi,
I am M2 and interested in NS. Are you now in a NS program? how do you enjoy your program?

 

[Ms. Molecule]

Honestly, this is really tough for me, too. I'm a pre-med/neuroscience student right now and I have been thinking of neurosurgery every since I went into high school. I am torn though with this because I want a family and children, but with this job...it'll be really difficult.

 

[barsoum.michael]

T

 

[barsoum.michael]

I have had the privilege to shadow a female neurosurgeon and I believe that we need more women in neurosurgery and in medicine. I feel and have noticed that women tend to be more compassionate than men and I think people need that more than anything.

 

[ytc110]

Now M2 working with a female NS. At some point she decided that she is not going to get married and will not have her own family. It would be shame if she thought she cannot have both (a career and a family) and gave up early on.