Wondering more and more if I should leave

[ariaisa]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I'm a soon-to-be second year in a primarily research-focused PhD program. Overall, I really Iike the program in so much as I like the faculty, get along well with my advisor, and think the training and support is excellent. Although I started out with clinical ambitions as an undergrad, I've also enjoyed and been heavily involved in research from undergrad on. After undergrad, I went onto get a masters (non-licensable, but with a clinical component), and after completing that, I could see myself either getting a licensable masters and practicing (with the possibility of getting a PhD later) or going straight for a PhD.

I applied to three counseling masters programs, four balanced PhD programs, and three research-focused PhD program, all good fits for my research/clinical interests. I got into all three of the counseling masters programs and two of the research-focused PhD programs but not any of the balanced programs. I chose this program based on both the funding and the overall great vibe I got from the program on interview day (which still holds up). One of counseling masters programs was also really appealing and was in the final running but would have meant substantial debt versus little or not debt from my current program.

I've done well so far with research publishing (I currently have over 10 journal articles from both my masters program and here), but I'm feeling increasingly dissatisfied with my current path and academia in general. For one thing, even though I have friends here, really dislike the town I'm in--it's small, semi-isolated, and incredibly homogenous and cliquish; I've lived in a number of places--big, small, rural, urban--and generally liked them, so I'm not overly picky. However, this place has shown me that I do want some say in where I live, and I know the academic job market is pretty much "if you're lucky enough to get *any* job, anywhere, go there." Additionally, I'm becoming increasingly wary of the academic lifestyle and if I want that to be my life. I honestly think I'd be happy as masters-level therapist (never had much of an interest in hardcore assessment), even having looked into the cons of that route. I'd miss research, sure, but I don' know if just really liking research is "pro" enough to stay for the next 4 years.

My department offers a route to masters-level licensure, which I could probably complete in 1.5 years, and that's tempting, especially because the debt wouldn't be too bad (under 40k). Alternatively, of course, there are also other masters programs, or staying and gritting my teeth through the next four-ish years. I'm wary to bring this up to anyone in my department in case I do decide to stay. I don't want to burn bridges for no reason.

Any advice?

 

[CheetahGirl]

So I gather when you finish, you will not be a clinician (i.e. You may currently be in an experimental or social Psych PhD program)? And you don't want to be a future professor? I'm asking because two of my greatest mentors along my path were NOT clinicians (they were experimental and social Psych PhDs) but taught in clinical programs.

It sounds like you're leaning towards that Master's. It's a good thing you're going through this change of heart now; the dissertation phase of a doctoral degree requires a whole new skill set of discipline and motivation (i.e. You can't fake it until you make it on that road).

 

[ariaisa]

So I gather when you finish, you will not be a clinician (i.e. You may currently be in an experimental or social Psych PhD program)? And you don't want to be a future professor? I'm asking because two of my greatest mentors along my path were NOT clinicians (they were experimental and social Psych PhDs) but taught in clinical programs.

It sounds like you're leaning towards that Master's. It's a good thing you're going through this change of heart now; the dissertation phase of a doctoral degree requires a whole new skill set of discipline and motivation (i.e. You can't fake it until you make it on that road).

Sorry if that wasn't clear--the program has a clinical component--its main focus is research and the clinical component definitely is a lower priority, but I should be license-eligible once I complete it.

 

[mcvcm92]

I think that you should leave your program and do the licensable masters route in your department. You said that you would be happy as a masters level therapist, and are generally disillusioned with academia. Also, you can still get involved with part time research as a full time masters level clinician, although that route will probably be more difficult than doing research as a doctoral level professor. But the fact that you have pretty extensive journal experience already will definitely help. Best of luck with your decision!

 

[PhDToBe]

I'm a soon-to-be second year in a primarily research-focused PhD program. Overall, I really Iike the program in so much as I like the faculty, get along well with my advisor, and think the training and support is excellent. Although I started out with clinical ambitions as an undergrad, I've also enjoyed and been heavily involved in research from undergrad on. After undergrad, I went onto get a masters (non-licensable, but with a clinical component), and after completing that, I could see myself either getting a licensable masters and practicing (with the possibility of getting a PhD later) or going straight for a PhD.

I applied to three counseling masters programs, four balanced PhD programs, and three research-focused PhD program, all good fits for my research/clinical interests. I got into all three of the counseling masters programs and two of the research-focused PhD programs but not any of the balanced programs. I chose this program based on both the funding and the overall great vibe I got from the program on interview day (which still holds up). One of counseling masters programs was also really appealing and was in the final running but would have meant substantial debt versus little or not debt from my current program.

I've done well so far with research publishing (I currently have over 10 journal articles from both my masters program and here), but I'm feeling increasingly dissatisfied with my current path and academia in general. For one thing, even though I have friends here, really dislike the town I'm in--it's small, semi-isolated, and incredibly homogenous and cliquish; I've lived in a number of places--big, small, rural, urban--and generally liked them, so I'm not overly picky. However, this place has shown me that I do want some say in where I live, and I know the academic job market is pretty much "if you're lucky enough to get *any* job, anywhere, go there." Additionally, I'm becoming increasingly wary of the academic lifestyle and if I want that to be my life. I honestly think I'd be happy as masters-level therapist (never had much of an interest in hardcore assessment), even having looked into the cons of that route. I'd miss research, sure, but I don' know if just really liking research is "pro" enough to stay for the next 4 years.

My department offers a route to masters-level licensure, which I could probably complete in 1.5 years, and that's tempting, especially because the debt wouldn't be too bad (under 40k). Alternatively, of course, there are also other masters programs, or staying and gritting my teeth through the next four-ish years. I'm wary to bring this up to anyone in my department in case I do decide to stay. I don't want to burn bridges for no reason.

Any advice?

What about working at a masters-granting institution, a liberal arts college, or any non R-1 programs? You could do research and teach, and do therapy on the side- or within the training of the program in which you teach.

 

[erg923]

What about working at a masters-granting institution, a liberal arts college, or any non R-1 programs? You could do research and teach, and do therapy on the side- or within the training of the program in which you teach.

This is what I did, but think it would be important to note that I found the salary (at least at my small university) to be intolerable...at least compared to what I could be making doing other things...of which I am now doing. 🙂 My wife is also a grade-school teacher, so it was also important that I be the one to really supply an income that is in-line with our wants/needs.

It is also worthy to note that after being in grad school for 6 years, I was no longer a fan of taking work home and constantly checking and replying to emails off hours (The "clincial" componet of my current position has a call scheule, but I am well compensated for it on top of my salary). Something to think about, since the OP stated thet were having second thoughts about the "academic lifestyle." I have a very solid 8 hour work day, and for now I am very happy with/about that.

 

[WisNeuro]

Might it be worth it to wait until you start the clinical component of your program and see how that goes? I experienced a major shift from research to clinical work as I moved through my program. My last two years were about 90% clinical, with the 10% being working on my dissertation. In short, I hated years 1 and 2 (although there were some extenuating variables), but I absolutely loved 3-5 in my program.

I guess the question would be, will you be able to shift into a much more significant clinical role in the coming years?

 

[cara susanna]

Has anyone from your program gone on to work in a clinical setting? Even the most research-focused PhD programs tend to churn out a few people who just want to be clinicians.

 

[PHD12]

If you are high achieving and academically strong like most clinical PhD students, you may find the MA level program to be unchallenging and not rigorous enough.

 

[ariaisa]

Thanks for the replies!

It is also worthy to note that after being in grad school for 6 years, I was no longer a fan of taking work home and constantly checking and replying to emails off hours (The "clincial" componet of my current position has a call scheule, but I am well compensated for it on top of my salary). Something to think about, since the OP stated thet were having second thoughts about the "academic lifestyle." I have a very solid 8 hour work day, and for now I am very happy with/about that.

That pretty much sums up my concerns with academia. I love research, truly, and enjoy teaching, but I don't much care for what I've seen and lived of the lifestyle (the 24/7 on-call nature of our labs, the massive pressure for grant funding, and the feeling that even if you publish five articles a year, you really should have made that ten). It's a real conundrum.

I actually don't know of anyone in our program who's gone the clinical route after graduation. I mean, I'm sure there have been, but thinking about the past two cohorts, I can't think of anyone who hasn't gone into either a research post-doc or TT/VAP position after graduating.

I can't help but think that a lot of my displeasure is coming from really not liking the city, because I quite like the program itself. Disliking the location seems like a really short-sighted reason to bail on a PhD program, but it's just a crappy place to live, despite having tried to make the best of it, and I don't relish the thought of spending another four years here, honestly. I had some reservations about the location at the beginning, but the program had enough pluses to balance those out in my mind. Those pluses-- and more--are still there, but the "cons" of the location have also become more evident over time.

If you are high achieving and academically strong like most clinical PhD students, you may find the MA level program to be unchallenging and not rigorous enough

My biggest concerns about the MA route are: a) missing research and b) really regretting not going for the PhD down the line .

 

[Pragma]

If it were me, I would suck it up and finish. You will be able to do a lot more with your degree. If you dislike the city you live in, go elsewhere for internship.

 

[erg923]

Keep in mind that the publishing "pressure" is much less (and almost non existent) at small colleges, although I found myself grading lots of papers and prepping lectures constantly at home..in addition to email. I only did one one project of my own during my visiting assistant professor year (last year), and managed to keep it generally confined to my work day at the office.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Thanks for the replies!


....I don't much care for what I've seen and lived of the lifestyle (the 24/7 on-call nature of our labs, the massive pressure for grant funding, and the feeling that even if you publish five articles a year, you really should have made that ten). It's a real conundrum.

Not for nothing, but in nearly every clinical job I had at the Masters level, I was on call 24/7 for consultation, crisis, coverage, etc. There's a lot of work out there like that...

 

[ariaisa]

Not for nothing, but in nearly every clinical job I had at the Masters level, I was on call 24/7 for consultation, crisis, coverage, etc. There's a lot of work out there like that...

Oh, I'm fine with that type of on-call. What I meant was more the expectation that we are always working on research--taking a Sunday "off" from writing is odd, for example

 

[CheetahGirl]

Oh, I'm fine with that type of on-call. What I meant was more the expectation that we are always working on research--taking a Sunday "off" from writing is odd, for example

Ariaisa, don't take offense...but could you possibly be at the younger age-range of a doctoral degree? My concluding remark is that you should stay put. And here's some friendly advice from one doctoral peer to another:

1) This too shall pass. The stage of research that you're in will end. I worked late nights and weekends on grants. It was research & editing hell, but it did not go on forever. It was a phase that got me to a better place. It's also more difficult to bear when it's not your own ideas or grant, but your supervisors' or mentors' work you are doing. Set some boundaries with your superiors...tell them you need a exercise break (and go from a run) - seriously - no one will argue when you put your physical & mental health at the forefront after putting in a 40-hour work week (it's called self-care).

2) Delayed-gratification. You will not be in that town forever. Self-fulfilling prophecy...go out and find something you like or take up a sport (like running) so you can see the town from a different perspective (not just that it's uncool, but perhaps from a new point-of-view like it has awesome mountain biking trails...or something to the effect of increasing non-stress related, but euphoric endorphine production).

3) Step out of the box. If your school has a clinical component, be one of the few who goes ‘just clinical.' Just do it - if that is your main focus. One of my awesome mentors went to program like the one you described (are you at Stony Brook?!? - you don't have to answer that), and she went the research route, but she was a damn good clinician (and mentor), and I used to think about how so many would benefit from having her as their therapist, just the way she understood & spoke, and how she asked questions. It's more difficult to be a solid scientist-practitioner than a practitioner only. Use your gift of wit that got you accepted into such a program (like Stony Brook which had 4 students per year when my mentor went there), and stay on the path that you ultimately want. Maybe you're having "buyers' remorse" with your program, n'est pas? Just remember the very important reasons why you chose that school after all (location & all).

4) I LOVE suggesting to clinical (and non-clinical) folks that if all that fails, go seek therapy or spiritual support (like priest or pundit) to help with adjustment problems (not mental disease or deficit, obviously). I still can't stand how hypocritical others can be about seeking support for themselves when there's overwhelming incongruence in their lives. Therapy-for the therapist sure beats out maladaptive ways of functioning to cope with graduate school stress. And you don't have to tell anyone – shhhh! – it's all confidential. 

You may have all the basic elements of success, but I suppose you feel like sharing your doubts with the choir. And we really know how to listen. 🙂

 

[cara susanna]

Yeah, I'm still a graduate student but I tend to take weekends off from research. And no one I work with complains about that.

Granted, I'm not a super research-intensive program so my amount of research productivity even with breaks factored in is still higher than most of my fellow students'.

 

[Ollie123]

One thing to keep in mind is that if you are really getting good research training, it should be providing you with an incredible range of skills and preparing you for success in many different lines of work....not just university professor. Now we have generally done a poor job of making students, employers and the public aware of those skills and depending on your background and goals it may require more effort to "break into" that area.

Not trying to make a case for it either way - that is for you to decide. Just don't walk away from the program thinking that its pointless if you don't want to be a university professor. There are many more options than that and they vary greatly in terms of pay, duties, etc.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Don't rush to make any decision. The fact you still love research AND like your actual program are two HUGE points in the "stay" column.

Good luck!
Dr. E