Words to the Wise.

[Tippytoe]

12 associate level degrees that make about as much as an OD degree (esp when factoring in company benefits that you never get as an optometrist and lack of crushing school debt).

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/personal-finance/associate-s-degree-jobs-that-pay-well-1.aspx

Electrical tech
Radiology tech
Dental hygienist
Graphic designer
Registered nurse
Paralegal
Solar energy consultant
Police and Detectives
Funeral directors
Hopitality managers
Computer support specialist

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[Shnurek]

Ya there was also a comparison a few years ago about how a NYC garbage truck man makes more money in his lifetime than a primary care doctor if they worked the same amount of hours.

Here is the closest I found. A UPS driver compared to a physician: http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html\

"Because of their schooling, the earning years for doctors are compressed into a shorter period of time, thus increasing their income tax rates relative to UPS drivers. Translation: Even if the doctor earns the same total amount of money as a UPS driver, the doc's tax rate will be higher, leaving him with less after-tax income."

 

[KHE]

Ya there was also a comparison a few years ago about how a NYC garbage truck man makes more money in his lifetime than a primary care doctor if they worked the same amount of hours.

Here is the closest I found. A UPS driver compared to a physician: http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html\

"Because of their schooling, the earning years for doctors are compressed into a shorter period of time, thus increasing their income tax rates relative to UPS drivers. Translation: Even if the doctor earns the same total amount of money as a UPS driver, the doc's tax rate will be higher, leaving him with less after-tax income."

I think that other than those guys who do the crab fishing on Deadliest Catch, being a NYC garbage truck man would have to be the absolute worst job in the world.

 

[Jason K]

I think that other than those guys who do the crab fishing on Deadliest Catch, being a NYC garbage truck man would have to be the absolute worst job in the world.

Why? For someone with no expensive education, no input of years of training, they can come out and make somewhere in the mid 60s to mid 70s, higher if they work overtime. I see OD listings all the time for between 60 and 70K......after 8-9 years of grueling school and a couple of hundred thousand in debt. Of course the OD's work environment is far better than that of a garbage collector, but is it worth 8+ years and hundreds of thousands of dollars? Maybe to some.

 

[itek2OD]

12 associate level degrees that make about as much as an OD degree (esp when factoring in company benefits that you never get as an optometrist and lack of crushing school debt).

[SNIP!]
Dental hygienist

[SNIP!]

...........and who knows where else in Canada that happens.
So if you need a teeth 'cleaning' you can visit a few of the dental clinics in Toronto and get one pronto. Kinda surprised me.

 

[syma]

...........and who knows where else in Canada that happens.
So if you need a teeth 'cleaning' you can visit a few of the dental clinics in Toronto and get one pronto. Kinda surprised me.

This is so interesting to me.

In the UK, the dentist cleans your teeth.

 

[mclem222]

I have a small bone to pick.. Why is it in our field people talk about 8 years of grueling school. Is it as though you weren't going to go to college if you didn't become an optometrist? Is it that we want to stack the cards to make it seem like we do the same amount of time as OMDs? Its 4 years..5 if you do a "residency". period...Why don't we start including high school. I had to go to school for 20 years to become an optometrist...first there was grade school, then middle school, high school...college and finally optometry school. Can you believe it? I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of us would have gone to college if we didnt decide to become optoms. If not, then it really reflects on the caliber of our applicants and peers if people were thinking" Man I am either going to go to college and become an optometrist or just graduate high school and do auto body repair" We can drop the 8 year craziness and please start saying 4 years.

 

[Superblyme]

My sister is a rad tech. The average salary is ~$50,000/year. Not sure how that's more lucrative than optometry, where the average is ~$100,000/year. Even taking into account the extra schooling and debt, I'm not sure you would end up with more... not to mention how physically taxing it is.

ETA: I don't consider my time in undergrad wasted, "grueling," or miserable. It was fun. It was four years I got to spend with friends, studying things I'm interested in, and having a pretty good time (while generally only "working" [going to class] for ~25 hours a week). I'm not sure how optometry school will be, but I can't imagine it'll be THAT awful.

 

[Jason K]

ETA: I don't consider my time in undergrad wasted, "grueling," or miserable. It was fun. It was four years I got to spend with friends, studying things I'm interested in, and having a pretty good time (while generally only "working" [going to class] for ~25 hours a week). I'm not sure how optometry school will be, but I can't imagine it'll be THAT awful.

If you spent no time studying outside of class, either you're a genius or your undergrad institution stole your money. If you go into an OD program with the mindset that you'll be able to "work" only while in class, you'll have a very short OD student career.

 

[Jason K]

I have a small bone to pick.. Why is it in our field people talk about 8 years of grueling school. Is it as though you weren't going to go to college if you didn't become an optometrist? Is it that we want to stack the cards to make it seem like we do the same amount of time as OMDs? Its 4 years..5 if you do a "residency". period...Why don't we start including high school. I had to go to school for 20 years to become an optometrist...first there was grade school, then middle school, high school...college and finally optometry school. Can you believe it? I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of us would have gone to college if we didnt decide to become optoms. If not, then it really reflects on the caliber of our applicants and peers if people were thinking" Man I am either going to go to college and become an optometrist or just graduate high school and do auto body repair" We can drop the 8 year craziness and please start saying 4 years.

When you commit to a professional path, you're "cashing in your chips." The 4 years you spent in college, the 100K or whatever that you might have spent, all the effort you expended, all goes toward the profession you're committed to. Yes, most of us would have gone to college either way, but by signing up for an OD program, you're dedicating all of that work/money/effort to your profession. That's why it takes 8-9 years to become an OD. The effort expended is not independent of the track. As for why we don't include high school - it's compulsory, not voluntary. (At least for now. Won't be long before Obama declares that all of his subjects must attend college, paid for with Federal loans taken out at 12% since that would be "the right thing to do.")

Also, for what it's worth, when OMDs talk about their training (which dwarfs ours, by anyone's standards, ours or theirs), they do it in terms of total time, including college. If we choose to remove the 4 years of undergrad for some reason, it's not an "apples to apples" comparison.

And finally, most OD programs require a bachelor's degree (a short time ago, they all did). It is not unreasonable to include the college track as part of the total path since it would not be possible to reach the goal without it.

 

[Visionary]

So I should start saying that it took me 12 years to become an ophthalmologist, eh? If you include the PhD I got along the way, that's 17. What's the point? Who are we trying to impress? We all spend a ridiculous amount of time in school. In most people's minds, there is no amount of compensation that would make up for that. We're just stubborn lunatics.

 

[Jason K]

So I should start saying that it took me 12 years to become an ophthalmologist, eh? If you include the PhD I got along the way, that's 17. What's the point? Who are we trying to impress? We all spend a ridiculous amount of time in school. In most people's minds, there is no amount of compensation that would make up for that. We're just stubborn lunatics.

My point is, the undergrad work counts in both cases because it’s necessary to get to the end result. If you’re looking at it from a cost perspective, you would not be complete or accurate in saying “It costs $X in educational costs to become an OMD/OD” unless you include undergraduate costs as well. It’s part of the track and it’s not avoided by most people choosing either profession.

But to answer your question, yes, I think you should start saying it took you 12 years to become an ophthalmologist because it did take that long. The PhD is out because that's not something you needed, that's an add on. But, if you're out trying to impress the ladies, I say "work it," baby.

 

[Shnurek]

But, if you're out trying to impress the ladies, I say "work it," baby.

Haha, only two words are necessary that come out of your mouth, "Eye Surgeon". Panty dropper

 

[Tippytoe]

My sister is a rad tech. The average salary is ~$50,000/year. Not sure how that's more lucrative than optometry, where the average is ~$100,000/year. Even taking into account the extra schooling and debt, I'm not sure you would end up with more... not to mention how physically taxing it is.

ETA: I don't consider my time in undergrad wasted, "grueling," or miserable. It was fun. It was four years I got to spend with friends, studying things I'm interested in, and having a pretty good time (while generally only "working" [going to class] for ~25 hours a week). I'm not sure how optometry school will be, but I can't imagine it'll be THAT awful.

I'll go slow this time: My source says the average for a radiologist tech is $54,340 per year in 2010. The vast majority work in a hosptial or health care office setting. Ero, they are likely to have a decent benefits package. Health insurance, paid vacation, sick days, paid holidays. This can easily add $17,000+ to their overall reimbursement. ODs will get none of these unless you are in a rare situation....maybe if you bow down and get a job working for a big OMD center you can negotiate a few paid days off for CE and maybe a week vacation every year.

The average OD pay is $94,990 per year. This is the average after maybe 10 years and it will peak at that or probably go lower due to the vast oversupply. There is no other possiblity.

So this brings the rad tech real 'salary' to $71,340. THIS IS WHAT you will expect to make as a new OD.

Secondly-- radiology tech is an associate degree program. 2 year right out of high school at a super cheap community college. It's very possible many of them graduate without owing a penny. After an OD students pays $2,500/month in student loans, it is very likely that the associate degree rad tech will end up making more money than an OD.

People always underestimate or 'forget' to count their generous benefits packages. ODs will be self-employed or likely an illegal 'independent contractor' and get no benefits and have to pay extra taxes as a self-employeed person.

All of this somewhat evens the income playing field.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Healthcare/Radiologic-technologists.htm#tab-1

So you can go do a difficult gradate program and spend $200,000 for an OD degree to maybe make $70,000 as a new OD or $90,000 with ten years experience. OR you can live at home, go to a free community college for 2 years (while you still work a job if you want) and come out making about the same as the new OD overall.

Does no one else think how pitiful it is that a doctor of optometry only makes $95,000? It might look like huge amount of money to you on paper.........but it's really not. If the average salary was $200,000, I'd be preaching a different story.

Here's the full story on radiologist techs:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...e&isshowcompanyfct=false&isshowaboutyou=false

Core Compensation Median % of Total Base
Salary $48,550 69.2%
Bonuses $65 0.1%
Value of Benefits Social Security $3,719 5.3%
401K/403B $1,847 2.6%
Disability $340 0.5%
Healthcare $6,507 9.3%
Pension $3,111 4.4%
Time Off $5,983 8.5%

Total Compensation $70,124 Base Salary: 69.2 %

 

[Shnurek]

Does no one else think how pitiful it is that a doctor of optometry only makes $95,000? It might look like huge amount of money to you on paper.........but it's really not.

It is quite pitiful. But such is the field you choose. If you choose a relatively clean/safe field like optometry you will get paid less. If you pick something more dirty like podiatry and deal with nasty feet all day you will get $118,000 median salary. There is a reason why urology compensation is so high in physicians. People don't like doing nasty stuff all day even doctors.



Or even better: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/radiation-therapists.htm

Radiation Therapists
$74,980 per year with a 2-year community college associate degree.

:O

 

[Jason K]

There is a reason why urology compensation is so high in physicians. People don't like doing nasty stuff all day even doctors.

God, Shnurek, your assumptions continuously get you in trouble on this thing. Urology is a highly paid specialty because it's surgical, not because it involves "nasty stuff." The fact that it involves rooting around in people's "junk" has little to do with it. An ICU physician might be likely to see more "nasty stuff" in a given day and they don't get paid as much. That's not the reason - but you assume it to be true, so in your mind, it is. Sounds like some other assumptions you've made.

 

[CMM83]

$95,000 with ten years experience?

$2,500 a month in loan repayments?

Way off from where I'm standing.

 

[Jason K]

$95,000 with ten years experience?

$2,500 a month in loan repayments?

Way off from where I'm standing.

That's just it...from where YOU'RE standing, it might very well be way off. From where new grads are standing, and those who will be pumped out in the years to come are standing, it's right on.

 

[Superblyme]

I'll go slow this time: My source says the average for a radiologist tech is $54,340 per year in 2010. The vast majority work in a hosptial or health care office setting. Ero, they are likely to have a decent benefits package. Health insurance, paid vacation, sick days, paid holidays. This can easily add $17,000+ to their overall reimbursement. ODs will get none of these unless you are in a rare situation....maybe if you bow down and get a job working for a big OMD center you can negotiate a few paid days off for CE and maybe a week vacation every year.

The average OD pay is $94,990 per year. This is the average after maybe 10 years and it will peak at that or probably go lower due to the vast oversupply. There is no other possiblity.

So this brings the rad tech real 'salary' to $71,340. THIS IS WHAT you will expect to make as a new OD.

Secondly-- radiology tech is an associate degree program. 2 year right out of high school at a super cheap community college. It's very possible many of them graduate without owing a penny. After an OD students pays $2,500/month in student loans, it is very likely that the associate degree rad tech will end up making more money than an OD.

People always underestimate or 'forget' to count their generous benefits packages. ODs will be self-employed or likely an illegal 'independent contractor' and get no benefits and have to pay extra taxes as a self-employeed person.

All of this somewhat evens the income playing field.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Healthcare/Radiologic-technologists.htm#tab-1

So you can go do a difficult gradate program and spend $200,000 for an OD degree to maybe make $70,000 as a new OD or $90,000 with ten years experience. OR you can live at home, go to a free community college for 2 years (while you still work a job if you want) and come out making about the same as the new OD overall.

Does no one else think how pitiful it is that a doctor of optometry only makes $95,000? It might look like huge amount of money to you on paper.........but it's really not. If the average salary was $200,000, I'd be preaching a different story.

Here's the full story on radiologist techs:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...e&isshowcompanyfct=false&isshowaboutyou=false

Core Compensation Median % of Total Base
Salary $48,550 69.2%
Bonuses $65 0.1%
Value of Benefits Social Security $3,719 5.3%
401K/403B $1,847 2.6%
Disability $340 0.5%
Healthcare $6,507 9.3%
Pension $3,111 4.4%
Time Off $5,983 8.5%

Total Compensation $70,124 Base Salary: 69.2 %

If $50,000 is the average rad tech salary, then they would be starting lower, as well. There really is no reason to point out the lower OD starting salary if we're talking lifetime averages. Otherwise, we will have to determine the amount of time/experience it would take to reach the "average," and then compute with that.

In any case, I'm not sure who is going to be paying $2500/month in student loans... I don't know about other schools, but the average school debt for ODs graduating from SCO in 2010 was around $120,000, which would come out to ~$1400/month with the 10-year repayment plan.

This may seem ridiculously simplistic, but using the "averages" over two people's working career (starting right out of school and retiring at 65):

$70,000 x 45 = $3,150,000

$95,000 x 39 = $3,705,000 - $200,000 (student loans) = $3,505,000

I'm not trying to argue that optometry is a very lucrative career. Personally, I think it's insane that people are expected to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and four years attaining a doctorate level of education, and then get paid less than $100,000, even after years of experience. Is it worth an extra $350,000 over an entire lifetime if you're miserable, or don't enjoy your work or education? Absolutely not. But I wanted to go to undergrad and enjoyed it, and I honestly feel like I'm a much better person for it. Like I said before, I can't say anything toward OD school yet, but I'm looking forward to that as well. And if I only end up "breaking even" with my radtech sister, I'm fine with that because I'm doing what I wanted to do (and got to spend at least 4 years of my "education time" hanging with friends, making memories, enriching myself, and having a truly good time).

 

[CMM83]

That's just it...from where YOU'RE standing, it might very well be way off. From where new grads are standing, and those who will be pumped out in the years to come are standing, it's right on.

I won't argue that optometry is not the best return on investment whether you graduated 10 years ago or 10 years from now. However, claiming a $2,500 per month loan repayment is ridiculous. That doesn't exist. Most optometry students qualify for income-based repayment because the monthly payment for the standard 10 year repayment schedule far exceeds that under IBR. So, if income is $70,000 annually as Tippytoe claims, student loan repayment per month would be $665 for a $160,000 loan. If the individual is married and does not file jointly, the monthly payment would be $590. The payments continue to decrease when scaled for increasing family size and likewise will increase as income increases. If the loan has a balance after 25 years the remaining amount is cancelled. I encourage students to find the best repayment schedule for your situation. Try out the IBR calculator: http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/IBRCalc.jsp

 

[Jason K]

I won't argue that optometry is not the best return on investment whether you graduated 10 years ago or 10 years from now. However, claiming a $2,500 per month loan repayment is ridiculous. That doesn't exist. Most optometry students qualify for income-based repayment because the monthly payment for the standard 10 year repayment schedule far exceeds that under IBR. So, if income is $70,000 annually as Tippytoe claims, student loan repayment per month would be $665 for a $160,000 loan. If the individual is married and does not file jointly, the monthly payment would be $590. The payments continue to decrease when scaled for increasing family size and likewise will increase as income increases. If the loan has a balance after 25 years the remaining amount is cancelled. I encourage students to find the best repayment schedule for your situation. Try out the IBR calculator: http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/IBRCalc.jsp

You neglected two small details:

1) Virtually everyone who has an OD, also has a relatively expensive bachelor's degree - which costs real money. I would agree that 2500K/month for an OD alone is stretching it, but when undergrad is factored in, some degrees costing as much or more than an OD these days, it's hardly off base.

2) Everyone always forgets about the little thing we call "taxes." IBR is a great way to keep your payments low initially after graduation, but people need to understand that their interest compounds daily, even if you're on IBR. If you pay the minimum for the 25 or 20 year period (depending on your graduation date), you'll be left with a MASSIVE capital gains tax hit in the year of forgiveness. Nothing is free, unless you're in the entitlement class. Right now, capital gains is at 15%. Obama just raised that little nugget to as high as 39.6% for some. If you take a place somewhere in the middle, say 25% and use that a as reasonable guess for what the capital gains tax rate will be in 20 years (I think it will be near the 40%, but let's give uncle sam the benefit of the doubt), then a given student will be paying about 25% of the total amount owed - all in one tax year. When that starting balance of 200K turns out to be 375K after 20 years because of mounting interest being applied to the principal, the tax hit will sting, especially since ODs will likely be making then what they're making right now.

So, like I said, nothing is free. Unless you're on welfare, you've gotta pay for it one way or the other. Students on IBR will pay just as much as anyone else, if not more. They'll just do it later on. It's not meant to be used long-term. It's meant to be used to soften the hard initial hit that a high student loan debt/income ratio causes these days.

 

[Tippytoe]

You neglected two small details:


So, like I said, nothing is free. Unless you're on welfare, you've gotta pay for it one way or the other. Students on IBR will pay just as much as anyone else, if not more. They'll just do it later on. It's not meant to be used long-term. It's meant to be used to soften the hard hit that a high student loan debt/income ratio causes these days.

Additionally, you've got to ask yourself do you want to be paying a $800, $1,000 or $2,500 loan payment for the next 25 years. Talk about something knocking down your pride. I hit mine hard and paid them off completely within 10 years. Of course I 'only' had $80,000 total.

Only a loser would stretch out an education loan for 25 years. That's pathetic. Skip the new car and get that crap out of your way. That $1,000 or $2,000/month could be invested elsewhere for 15+ years. And remember, it never goes away.........not even in bankruptsy. That is unless King Obama suddenly decides it does. Then it will. .

 

[CMM83]

I never said somebody should use IBR for 25 years. I just think it's wise to have the lowest payments right out of school. After working with ophthalmology for 2 years I switched to IBR so I could afford the buy in on my practice while still having a decent quality of life. After next year I'll probably switch back to standard.

As for taxes, you're absolutely right. Current law would consider the "forgiven" amount taxable (unless it's through PSLF). However, legislation is currently being proposed to lump all IBR into the same benefit as PSLF. Student loan debt is getting out of hand all across the board and is not sustainable in its current form. What will happen 25 years down the road is anybody's guess.

 

[Dirk Funk]

Don't forget about the prestige.
love: