Workers compensation

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EtherBunny

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What are the pros and cons for this patient population? I didn't get a lot of exposure in training to these patients. Now I'm in a practice that has an extraordinarily high proportion of these patients. In fact, the senior docs in the practice focus almost exclusively on w/c (I have no idea why other than financial reasons). Any thoughts?

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This is a population with competing motivations. Steve's cavaliere attitude to the contrary, the needs of this population can be very difficult to assess and address. Doctors who work with this injured workers need to be aware that often patients' primary concerns are economic rather than purely health-related. The administrative hoops one needs to jump through as a provider can also be daunting. Part of the reason comp pays so well is because of of the extra work that is required in order to get paid

Lawyers are involved. Adjusters are involved. Very specific State guidelines need to be adhered to. Patients are often FOS. Docs hired by the employers are often FOS.

A lot of docs will tell you that it's just not worth the effort. I personally think it's fun. To me, whether I'm fighting with an insurance company or I'm fighting with a comp adjuster, I'm fighting on behalf of my patient. The other guy's job is to save his company money. My job is to do what's best for my patient. So long as you don't mind figuring out which folks are playing the system, and which patients really want to get better, advocating on behalf of someone who really needs and deserves your help lets you wear the white hat
 
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Reread my first sentence. "This is a population with competing motivations".

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Reread my first sentence. "This is a population with competing motivations".

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I agree with ampaphb and steve. It's not health care, it's medico-legal risk reduction program. Your duty isn't to a patient-physician relationship, but to a system. It gives me the heebie-jeebies.
 
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I agree with ampaphb and steve. It's not health care, it's medico-legal risk reduction program. Your duty isn't to a patient-physician relationship, but to a system. It gives me the heebie-jeebies.
It is a system identical to that of other third-party payers. There are rules you need to abide by in order to be paid. Your only obligation is to provide good medical care, just like every other patient.
 
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It is a system identical to that of other third-party payers. There are rules you need to abide by in order to be paid. Your only obligation is to provide good medical care, just like every other patient.

That's not my experience. In our state's system, the process revolves around "the accepted condition." So, in the typical scenario, a worker injures his/her low back and goes to the ED. They get x-rays which show no fracture and the ED physician diagnoses "lumbar strain" and gives the patient ibuprofen and flexeril.

The initial diagnosis of lumbar strain is now more or less administratively tattooed to the patient and changing it becomes a circus/act of God. The patient goes to PT, chiro, yoga and doesn't get better. More NSAIDS and muscle relaxers are piled on by PCP/occ med managing a claim. Finally, a MRI is obtained which shows a bulge or annular tear. A referral to a specialist (me) is authorized. I explain the injury mechanism to the patient, correlate the imaging findings and symptoms, recommend a procedure. Meanwhile, an IME reviews the same findings and judges that they are not industrially-related and instead degenerative. No treatment is allowed for degenerative conditions that are not industrially-related. Next comes the parade of IME's some exclaiming discs can't hurt and injections for them can't work, others exclaiming that the patient is motivated by secondary gains, and some just simply denouncing the patient as crazy or lying.

So, I end up doing a lot talking to WC patients about "alternative universes." Such as, "In an alternate universe where you PAID for your OWN health care and didn't have to play "mother may I" with a dysfunctional injury-medico-legal management system that really exists to protect your employer's interests and doesn't care about you AT ALL as a human being, I would offer you an ESI, but because your WC plan's benefits don't readily provide for that service, I'm going to recommend gabapentin instead---which usually doesn't get paid for either.
 
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So now we reach the crux of the matter - this is a state by state issue. Louisiana overhauled its system a few years back. It isn't perfect, but we have rules. 56 single spaced pages of rules. The carriers try desperately to add new rules that aren't there, assuming patients and docs are too dumb to notice. They misquote the rules (remarkably, always to their benefit). They use ODG when my state took the time to write their own rules. The largest carrier in the state tries to impose its own formulary when the state has determined no formulary will be established or acknowledged.

But we have the right to appeal all of the carriers' capricious denials to the medical director. I win 95% of my appeals.

So it clearly isn't a perfect system. But it's a whole lot better than it used to be (and it sounds like it's a whole lot better than Oregon as well).
 
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That's not my experience. In our state's system, the process revolves around "the accepted condition." So, in the typical scenario, a worker injures his/her low back and goes to the ED. They get x-rays which show no fracture and the ED physician diagnoses "lumbar strain" and gives the patient ibuprofen and flexeril.

The initial diagnosis of lumbar strain is now more or less administratively tattooed to the patient and changing it becomes a circus/act of God. The patient goes to PT, chiro, yoga and doesn't get better. More NSAIDS and muscle relaxers are piled on by PCP/occ med managing a claim. Finally, a MRI is obtained which shows a bulge or annular tear. A referral to a specialist (me) is authorized. I explain the injury mechanism to the patient, correlate the imaging findings and symptoms, recommend a procedure. Meanwhile, an IME reviews the same findings and judges that they are not industrially-related and instead degenerative. No treatment is allowed for degenerative conditions that are not industrially-related. Next comes the parade of IME's some exclaiming discs can't hurt and injections for them can't work, others exclaiming that the patient is motivated by secondary gains, and some just simply denouncing the patient as crazy or lying.

So, I end up doing a lot talking to WC patients about "alternative universes." Such as, "In an alternate universe where you PAID for your OWN health care and didn't have to play "mother may I" with a dysfunctional injury-medico-legal management system that really exists to protect your employer's interests and doesn't care about you AT ALL as a human being, I would offer you an ESI, but because your WC plan's benefits don't readily provide for that service, I'm going to recommend gabapentin instead---which usually doesn't get paid for either.

LOL. That sounds like a special form of torture...
 
And a higher portion of the WC population is faking it then the general population.
Care is sometimes to increase settlement, and not always for the good of the patient.
 
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And a higher portion of the WC population is faking it then the general population.
Care is sometimes to increase settlement, and not always for the good of the patient.

Yeah that was the impression that I got during fellowship. A lot of secondary gain issues, to the point that my attendings often rejected these patients (hence the lack of exposure for me during training). I'm wondering if this patient population is going to drive me crazy. I genuinely hate dealing with secondary gain issues and blatant dishonesty.
 
So now we reach the crux of the matter - this is a state by state issue. Louisiana overhauled it's system a few years back. It isn't perfect, but we have rules. 56 single spaced pages of rules. The carriers try desperately to add new rules that aren't there, assuming patients and doc's are too dumb to notice. They misquote the rules (remarkably, always to their benefit). They use ODG when my state took the time to write their own rules. The largest carrier in the state tries to impose its own formulary when the state has determined no formulary will be established or acknowledged.

But we have the right to appeal all of the carriers' capricious denials to the medical director. I win 95% of my appeals.

So it clearly isn't a perfect system. But it's a whole lot better than it used to be (and it sounds like it's a whole lot better than Oregon as well).

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There is a coterie of providers, adjusters, disability advocates, lawyers, and others who make it their life work to make the system work for them. When I started practice I actually found the bureaucratic pieces of it stimulating for the reasons you mentioned: It was humorous to see the contorted logic and blatant professional whoring that it promotes.

But, when our system eliminated SCS for failed back and almost all other IPM procedures for injured workers I realized that evil forces were truly conspiring against patients maimed and damaged by over-zealous surgeons and careless employers.

Then, I discovered how the WC medical directors get paid and I realized that I couldn't enjoy the picnic and just pretend anymore...they are paid (and feed their families) by denying care and service. It is impossible to treat these nominal physicians as "colleagues" because they are working for fundamentally different reasons than me. The more care that they deny the more money that they bring home. What a sh*tty way to make a living in the world.
 
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There is a coterie of providers, adjusters, disability advocates, lawyers, and others who make it their life work to make the system work for them. When I started practice I actually found the bureaucratic pieces of it stimulating for the reasons you mentioned: It was humorous to see the contorted logic and blatant professional whoring that it promotes.

But, when our system eliminated SCS for failed back and almost all other IPM procedures for injured workers I realized that evil forces were truly conspiring against patients maimed and damaged by over-zealous surgeons and careless employers.

Then, I discovered how the WC medical directors get paid and I realized that I couldn't enjoy the picnic and just pretend anymore...they are paid (and feed their families) by denying care and service. It is impossible to treat these nominal physicians as "colleagues" because they are working for fundamentally different reasons than me. The more care that they deny the more money that they bring home. What a sh*tty way to make a living in the world.

What do they do when these people claim they can't work ever again after a fusion surgery like most of them do?
 
You document their claim and your findings. If asked, you provide your expert opinion. If they don't agree, then there are plenty of other docs in the community who sold their souls long ago

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WC in my state pays 148% of medicare and there are opportunities to make alot more $$ on the medicolegal side. There are a number of physicians who play both sides - if not their patient IME(paying 3-5k based on time) denying care, if their patient or their practice then try to get everything done under the sun at their asc. Finally, alot of these comp docs really think our state guidelines were handed down by Moses and pretend their cookbook medicine actually takes a medical degree
 
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Whereas we have a ton of docs who can't be bothered to read the Louisiana medical treatment guidelines, and then complain when their requests get denied

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What do they do when these people claim they can't work ever again after a fusion surgery like most of them do?
Work hardening , vocational training , modified -restrictive duty, job searches, and ultimately SSD. It all reaches a climax with actuary health cost assessments and finally a health and damages settlement....
 
Work hardening , vocational training , modified -restrictive duty, job searches, and ultimately SSD. It all reaches a climax with actuary health cost assessments and finally a health and damages settlement....

Yeah so basically the tax payer picks up the bill after the lawyers/social workers/voc workers/IME docs/etc take their cut. The patient usually never becomes a productive citizen again and lives off the public dole.

Got it

Also, if there was any question about how often these patients go back to work after getting back surgery, this was already answered in Ohio

http://wolterskluwer.com/company/ne...utcomes-in-workers-compensation-patients.html

I suspect most of these people will undergo fusion surgeries just to be able to justify disability.
 
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Yeah so basically the tax payer picks up the bill after the lawyers/social workers/voc workers/IME docs/etc take their cut. The patient usually never becomes a productive citizen again and lives off the public dole.

Got it

Also, if there was any question about how often these patients go back to work after getting back surgery, this was already answered in Ohio

http://wolterskluwer.com/company/ne...utcomes-in-workers-compensation-patients.html

I suspect most of these people will undergo fusion surgeries just to be able to justify disability.
In a better economy with more job opportunities(stocking, inventory, admin, etc), more municipality/wc money for vocational training, maybe things will change. Typically the job opportunities for a modified-duty lumbar fusion worker is extremely limited . Wc and SSD payments are a burden on the system but aren't necessarily comparable to the workers original wage. We saw a massive influx of WC and SSD claims after the Great Recession...
 
If WC patients are such a royal pain in the ass to deal with, why do any physicians take on the cases? Is it strictly a profit motive?
 
If WC patients are such a royal pain in the ass to deal with, why do any physicians take on the cases? Is it strictly a profit motive?

I would definitely say YES when it comes to IMEs.

Who wouldn't want to get a few K for essentially saying "the patient had pre-existing problems, so we shouldn't pay for anything".

Great job if you can get it.
 
My work comp experience has been somewhat different.
Indiana work comp is not that bad. Most reasonable procedures are approved. SCS on occasion is difficult to get approved for patients that have failed back or epidural fibrosis binding up a nerve. Sometimes when I proposed a treatment, the WC adjustor would just send the patient to someone else.

I usually use the phrase "degenerative disc changes which were clinically silent until aggravated by the injury now causing symptomatic..." that tends to open some doors to treatment.

Also for the patients that I think are faking, I usually order an FCE and the therapists are usually pretty decent at stating if the patient has inconsistent effort or exaggerated pain behavior. Patients usually don't argue once thats on paper. they get a 0% impairment rating and returned to full duty. What happens after that, I have no idea.

FWIW I think that case managers can be a blessing or a curse. A good case manager can help you get things done quicker with less admin bs. A bad one makes everything twice as hard.
 
How can I dispense meds like naproxen and gabapentin to WC pts and bill WC for this?
 
How can I dispense meds like naproxen and gabapentin to WC pts and bill WC for this?
Given that I can get a month's supply of both for $25 through GoodRx, how much do you plan on ripping patients off (wait, I mean charging them) for?
 
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Work hardening , vocational training , modified -restrictive duty, job searches, and ultimately SSD. It all reaches a climax with actuary health cost assessments and finally a health and damages settlement....
There are three kinds of docs in this process. Stim is clearly a defense doc. Others are plaintiff friendly docs. And lastly, there are the even handed, middle of the road, honest brokers. The folks on one side will always call the other side bought and paid for ******, but the truth is they both have a part to play in the process.
 
Given that I can get a month's supply of both for $25 through GoodRx, how much do you plan on ripping patients off (wait, I mean charging them) for?
And even that is irritating since I can buy 100 gabapentin 300mg for $4.47 and and the same number of naproxen 500mg for $5.11
 
Doctors who sell meds out of their office have a conflict of interest with their duty to the patient.
Isn't that the same conflict as doctors who charge for their services?

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Given that I can get a month's supply of both for $25 through GoodRx, how much do you plan on ripping patients off (wait, I mean charging them) for?

Not charging patients. I've heard that California work comp pays several hundred dollars for a month of gabapentin, naprosyn and omeprazole. WC made the fee schedule and either the pharmacist or the physician can make the money. I want to know how.

Regarding steve's predictable comment on conflict of interest: How that will change my prescribing? WC guidelines have to be followed and there is no room for creativity or art of medicine. It's a simple algorithm to follow. I am forced to follow it. If I deviate from it, a peer reviewer will deny either remotely or via telephone.

Yes perverse incentives are everywhere and it's good to acknowledge them.
 
Wc is definitely a love hate relationship. I always defend the patient first. However there is so much secondary gain by the patient, but attorneys are equally bad by using patients as rent. That is, the longer they prolong treatment the more they make. Settlements are complex. I would advise a conservative treatment algorithm, geared to actual work capacity, and refer to a PT for an independent FCE(functional capacity eval) so as to keep patients working and to avoid haggling with defense/patient attorneys and adjusters... we need good doctors in the WC system , otherwise it fails and becomes costly for ALL small business owners...
 
Isn't that the same conflict as doctors who charge for their services?

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Looks like I've touched on a sore spot on this forum. Drugs are products and services. This is an additional Revenue stream which clouds Physicians thinking as a profit motive outweighs the benefit to the patient motive. Interviews I've done for pharmacy from workers comp they used to always prescribing Soma and Darvocet because these were clearly the most profitable medicines. When you put prescribing habits next to a fee schedule you have something that is not kosher. Unsure if where you train was still running a worker's comp in-house Pharmacy including schedule 2 narcotics, but if you were you know what kind of compromises were made.
 
A) not if it's at cost, so 0 profit. B) the same could be said of proceduralist fields or anyone who does any in-house lab testing.
I'd be interested to hear how this works from a business standpoint. You have a ton of regulations bookkeeping purchasing storage dispensing and added costs. If you're going to do this for zero profit how would you show it. This would be terrible business. But as doctors we are not just about business, we have a duty to our patient.
 
Not charging patients. I've heard that California work comp pays several hundred dollars for a month of gabapentin, naprosyn and omeprazole. WC made the fee schedule and either the pharmacist or the physician can make the money. I want to know how.

Regarding steve's predictable comment on conflict of interest: How that will change my prescribing? WC guidelines have to be followed and there is no room for creativity or art of medicine. It's a simple algorithm to follow. I am forced to follow it. If I deviate from it, a peer reviewer will deny either remotely or via telephone.

Yes perverse incentives are everywhere and it's good to acknowledge them.
I can tell you exactly how it changes your prescribing habits. He prescribed more drugs at higher quantities for longer durations of time there when there's no incentive to do so.
 
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There are three kinds of docs in this process. Stim is clearly a defense doc. Others are plaintiff friendly docs. And lastly, there are the even handed, middle of the road, honest brokers. The folks on one side will always call the other side bought and paid for ******, but the truth is they both have a part to play in the process.

Our wc and auto attorneys have a email list serv that lists the plaintiff and defense friendly docs. You are given a rating. These are the ONLY docs asked to do IMEs and who get atty referral for treatment-either for Insurance CO or plaintiff attys. If you are in the middle your services are never requested. I would be surprised if LA is any different.
 
Looks like I've touched on a sore spot on this forum. Drugs are products and services. This is an additional Revenue stream which clouds Physicians thinking as a profit motive outweighs the benefit to the patient motive. Interviews I've done for pharmacy from workers comp they used to always prescribing Soma and Darvocet because these were clearly the most profitable medicines. When you put prescribing habits next to a fee schedule you have something that is not kosher. Unsure if where you train was still running a worker's comp in-house Pharmacy including schedule 2 narcotics, but if you were you know what kind of compromises were made.
There are honest docs and thieves. Honest docs do what's best for the patient. Thieves do what's best for their wallet. Makes no difference whether we're talking about office visits, procedures, or meds

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Our wc and auto attorneys have a email list serv that lists the plaintiff and defense friendly docs. You are given a rating. These are the ONLY docs asked to do IMEs and who get atty referral for treatment-either for Insurance CO or plaintiff attys. If you are in the middle your services are never requested. I would be surprised if LA is any different.
SURPRISE! When you testify in court, opposing counsel often looks to see the percentage of time you testify for plaintiff and defense. A lopsided proportion makes you appear to be that side's *****. A 50/50 split gives you credibility
 
Yes that is discoverable. I am talking about docs being rated as to how good they are testifying and much more importantly if they will say the patient always has a permanent impairment or always had a pre-existing condition the is not compensable. The majority of wc "experts" (oxymoron if there ever was one) in my neck of the woods play both sides and 50/50 split on amount of defense and plaintiff testimony and they also split 50/50 on whole body permanent impairment vs not compensable depending on who pays that day.
 
There are honest docs and thieves. Honest docs do what's best for the patient. Thieves do what's best for their wallet. Makes no difference whether we're talking about office visits, procedures, or meds

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I equate this to drug rep marketing. If they buy you lunch or stop by your office, you write more of their drug. If this did not occur, you would never see a drug rep. It works subconsciously the same way for dispensing meds for good docs, and overtly for the thieves.
 
I'd be interested to hear how this works from a business standpoint. You have a ton of regulations bookkeeping purchasing storage dispensing and added costs. If you're going to do this for zero profit how would you show it. This would be terrible business. But as doctors we are not just about business, we have a duty to our patient.
Be glad to.

First, regulations for physician dispensing in my state are fairly lax. I have to use labels that meet the criteria from the Board of Pharmacy, keep an accurate inventory, and have a mechanism in place so that if there is a recall I can notify the appropriate patients. Fortunately, my EMR does all of that. Its actually not that much more work than generating a prescription. When drugs come in, I put them in inventory (takes about 30 seconds per bottle). When it comes time to dispense, its just like a regular prescription except it prints out a label instead of a script. My automatic pill counter does the rest, so it adds maybe 45 seconds per prescription compared to just sending the script to a pharmacy.

Second, my practice is part of a growing movement called Direct Primary Care. Its cash-only and subscription based: meaning my patients pay a monthly fee ($50 at my practice) for unlimited office visits and my cell phone/e-mail address for after hours/weekends/don't want to come into the office. I offer medication dispensing as a service to them, partly for the convenience but mostly for the huge savings. To give you a few examples: a z-pack currently runs $1.65, 90 capsules of gabapentin 300mg is $3.78, a month of 10mg Norvasc is 70 cents, 65mEq iron tablets are half a cent each (as is baby aspirin), flonase is $4.60 each, a 90 day supply of Crestor 10mg is $15, a month of meloxicam 7.5 is 72 cents. You get the idea.

I do mark up the drugs 10% to cover the costs of bottles and labels. My cheapest bottle is 13 cents, so if the script costs less than $1.30 I actually lose money doing it. But that's offset by more expensive drugs, so basically doing this is revenue neutral.

My goal is 600 total patients under this set up (I'm at 400 right now). 600 patients times $50/month equals $30,000 per month. My rent is 5k/month, my one MA wages runs with taxes runs about 3k/month. Malpractice is $300/month. Internet/website hosting/my EMR/e-consult service runs about 1k/month. Loans are about 3k/month. Let's add another 1k/month for random expenses. That comes to 14k/month if we round up. The remaining 16k/month is mine. Multiple by 12 months for a yearly salary of 192k/year, which is slightly above average for a family doctor just doing outpatient. Going forward, if I bring on another doctor almost all of that overhead is unchanged - just have to add malpractice, so we'll both end up making way above average for family doctors.
 
Be glad to.

First, regulations for physician dispensing in my state are fairly lax. I have to use labels that meet the criteria from the Board of Pharmacy, keep an accurate inventory, and have a mechanism in place so that if there is a recall I can notify the appropriate patients. Fortunately, my EMR does all of that. Its actually not that much more work than generating a prescription. When drugs come in, I put them in inventory (takes about 30 seconds per bottle). When it comes time to dispense, its just like a regular prescription except it prints out a label instead of a script. My automatic pill counter does the rest, so it adds maybe 45 seconds per prescription compared to just sending the script to a pharmacy.

Second, my practice is part of a growing movement called Direct Primary Care. Its cash-only and subscription based: meaning my patients pay a monthly fee ($50 at my practice) for unlimited office visits and my cell phone/e-mail address for after hours/weekends/don't want to come into the office. I offer medication dispensing as a service to them, partly for the convenience but mostly for the huge savings. To give you a few examples: a z-pack currently runs $1.65, 90 capsules of gabapentin 300mg is $3.78, a month of 10mg Norvasc is 70 cents, 65mEq iron tablets are half a cent each (as is baby aspirin), flonase is $4.60 each, a 90 day supply of Crestor 10mg is $15, a month of meloxicam 7.5 is 72 cents. You get the idea.

I do mark up the drugs 10% to cover the costs of bottles and labels. My cheapest bottle is 13 cents, so if the script costs less than $1.30 I actually lose money doing it. But that's offset by more expensive drugs, so basically doing this is revenue neutral.

My goal is 600 total patients under this set up (I'm at 400 right now). 600 patients times $50/month equals $30,000 per month. My rent is 5k/month, my one MA wages runs with taxes runs about 3k/month. Malpractice is $300/month. Internet/website hosting/my EMR/e-consult service runs about 1k/month. Loans are about 3k/month. Let's add another 1k/month for random expenses. That comes to 14k/month if we round up. The remaining 16k/month is mine. Multiple by 12 months for a yearly salary of 192k/year, which is slightly above average for a family doctor just doing outpatient. Going forward, if I bring on another doctor almost all of that overhead is unchanged - just have to add malpractice, so we'll both end up making way above average for family doctors.
Clearly, you aren't a pain doc
 
Clearly, you aren't a pain doc
Oh, sorry I didn't realize that wasn't known already.

No, not even close. I'm a family doctor. I have a decent interest in much of what y'all do, mainly as it pertains to things I can do medication wise that aren't opioids.
 
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