Would Oral surgery be competitive for MD's?

[bad_bunny]

Just a hypothetical question. I feel like it would be a super competitive speciality for med students if we had the option of doing it. You make 350-400k and work around 40 hours a week. You basically get to be a 9-5 surgeon. Derm is competitive because it offers that kind of lifestyle, and it is comparatively harder to match into.

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[deleted903608]

I mean technically med students do have the option, it's just not very feasible or popular. Many OMFS have both MD and DDS, plus have to do OMFS residency. It's a lot of training.

ENT or Plastics -> craniofacial fellowship has a lot of overlap and is highly competitive and desirable.

 

[nimbus]

Podiatry would be a very competitive specialty if you had to attend medical school to get there. Similar to ophtho/ortho/ENT/uro.

 

[Splenda88]

Podiatry would be a very competitive specialty if you had to attend medical school to get there. Similar to ophtho/ortho/ENT/uro.

But podiatrists make no $$$$

 

[parkinglottoilet]

350-400K is the low end of private practice OMFS. I know there are students in my med school class who have looked seriously into switching into it because its so great.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I didn't think this was an option for medical students? MD OMS earned their MD in a 6-year OMS residency. If it is possible to go MD->DMD/DDS->OMFS someone please explain that would be very interesting.

 

[averageasian]

I didn't think this was an option for medical students? MD OMS earned their MD in a 6-year OMS residency. If it is possible to go MD->DMD/DDS->OMFS someone please explain that would be very interesting.

This actually has been done before for a bunch of people. Its around 7 years since you can do the last 3 years of dental school and 4 years of OMFS residency.

Most dental schools have their first year mirror their med school since its all just basic science so you can skip this.

 

[slowthai]

This actually has been done before for a bunch of people.

Really? I've heard that it's pretty rare, because only a few dental schools allow it. But that is so sick. I'm not interested in OMFS, but it's one of the coolest surgical subs imo.

 

[averageasian]

Really? I've heard that it's pretty rare, because only a few dental schools allow it. But that is so sick. I'm not interested in OMFS, but it's one of the coolest surgical subs imo.

It’s certainly rare but not impossible. Not a very common route taken by those who are already MDs.

I’m actually a dental student but I know of someone who’s doing this at a nearby school

 

[bad_bunny]

It’s certainly rare but not impossible. Not a very common route taken by those who are already MDs.

I’m actually a dental student but I know of someone who’s doing this at a nearby school

Do you mind saying what school?

 

[Cornfed101]

One of the physicians at UMN got a DDS, then MD, did ENT residency, then facial plastic surgery fellowship. He can basically do any surgery of the head and neck besides neuro. A lot of training, but pretty cool.

 

[averageasian]

Do you mind saying what school?

Harvard!

 

[Splenda88]

I wonder if they went to med school already knowing they were pursuing OMFS.

You will never know but people have become very smart these days. It is a great way to shave off two years working for minimum wage.

Maybe they should allow DDS/DMD and MD/DO to have equal access to OMFS and ENT

 

[Splenda88]

Can you explain about the two years working min wage?

Will they need to do six years if they already have an MD?

 

[Splenda88]

If the program that accepts them is a 6 year then probably. But w a competitive cbse (since they actually went to med school and took step 1 2 and 3) they can probably match anywhere, so they’d go to a 4 year program.

I don't know if a 4-year program will accept an MD student. You probably know more than I do since you are a dentist.

 

[slowthai]

Harvard and UT Knoxville and Alabama Birmingham I believe at the three programs that allow MDs to go through a 6 year (2 years of dental school) residency

That is so awesome.

 

[CGtoDentistry]

Harvard and UT Knoxville and Alabama Birmingham I believe at the three programs that allow MDs to go through a 6 year (2 years of dental school) residency

Seems like a wasted opportunity though, especially with the dental tuition that will be charged for residency. Dental residencies the students don't get paid, they PAY tuition for them. So at a place like Harvard you're probably looking at adding another 300-500K of debt doing an OMS residency as an MD

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

At least as far as I'm aware, OMFS residency does pay you (at least a relative of mine who just finished OMFS residency got paid). Some general dentistry residencies also pay you. I believe periodontics and endodontics do charge tuition, however.

 

[slowthai]

Seems like a wasted opportunity though, especially with the dental tuition that will be charged for residency. Dental residencies the students don't get paid, they PAY tuition for them. So at a place like Harvard you're probably looking at adding another 300-500K of debt doing an OMS residency as an MD

OMFS residents don't pay for residency, they get paid just like medical residents. If they're doing the 6 year OMFS MD program (they get an MD degree along with becoming an OMFS), they do pay for the med school tuition only. They can often moonlight in their free time to help pay for it.

 

[parkinglottoilet]

Seems like a wasted opportunity though, especially with the dental tuition that will be charged for residency. Dental residencies the students don't get paid, they PAY tuition for them. So at a place like Harvard you're probably looking at adding another 300-500K of debt doing an OMS residency as an MD

This is 100% wrong. You get paid 50K+ per PGY year of OMFS residency (4 years). You pay 2 years of dental school tuition when you are back in school.

 

[averageasian]

At least as far as I'm aware, OMFS residency does pay you (at least a relative of mine who just finished OMFS residency got paid). Some general dentistry residencies also pay you. I believe periodontics and endodontics do charge tuition, however.

Add orthodontics , prosthodontics etc to that. (you need to pay tuition for these)

If the program is nice enough to have full affiliation with the hospital, it’s free and a stipend is paid. State schools are usually cheaper too vs private.

Most programs are school based and charge the same tuition at the Dental school. So a specialty degree can cost you close to 300k after your DDS/DMD

 

[PieOHmy]

One of the physicians at UMN got a DDS, then MD, did ENT residency, then facial plastic surgery fellowship. He can basically do any surgery of the head and neck besides neuro. A lot of training, but pretty cool.

he cant do implants etc and all the Money making stuff oral surgeons do.
I agree OMFS is pretty bad ass.
If it were a medical subspecialty it would be more competitive than orthopedics.

 

[slowthai]

he cant do implants etc and all the Money making stuff oral surgeons do.
I agree OMFS is pretty bad ass.
If it were a medical subspecialty it would be more competitive than orthopedics.

100%. I think it would be on par with PRS. The money and lifestyle post residency is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Darlington1]

That is the UK OMFS route.

 

[dangEras]

Ranking it among surgical specialties:

More competitive than gen surg, ob/gyn.

On par with ophtho, urology, ENT.

Below Ortho, PRS.

 

[PieOHmy]

Urology is a miserable existence in my opinion.
Ent is okay in that you can have a purely outpatient practice but the airway emergencies.... you can return a page at 2 am and have screaming at the other end begging you to be here NOW.. every time youare on call... sort of like our call.
ortho: Lot of work... Lot of medicare, selfpay. Theyare on the higher side of medical specialties but not commensurate with the amount of work that is.
Oral surgery: Thats where its at.

 

[zanzizic]

One of the physicians at UMN got a DDS, then MD, did ENT residency, then facial plastic surgery fellowship. He can basically do any surgery of the head and neck besides neuro. A lot of training, but pretty cool.

He can do any surgery of the head and neck but since he’s done facial plastics now all he does is facelifts, rhinoplasties, and blephs because those procedures pay

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

So not to give anyone any ideas but.... It is common knowledge that a licensed M.D. has a full & unlimited license to practice medicine regardless of residency or board certification. I always wondered if a licensed Dentist could do Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery without a residency in a similar manner?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Add orthodontics , prosthodontics etc to that.

If the program is nice enough to have full affiliation with the hospital, it’s free and a stipend is paid. State schools are usually cheaper too vs private.

Most programs are school based and charge the same tuition at the Dental school. So a specialty degree can cost you close to 300k after your DDS/DMD

There must be lots of variety from place to place as a quick Google search showed me multiple places that require tuition.

 

[BYU4you]

So not to give anyone any ideas but.... It is common knowledge that a licensed M.D. has a full & unlimited license to practice medicine regardless of residency or board certification. I always wondered if a licensed Dentist could do Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery without a residency in a similar manner?

To an extent, sure. Im not sure about fixing fractures and plating anything or doing orthognathic because I doubt any has ever tried such intense procedures let alone any hospital letting them near an operating room.

However they can do pretty much anything a specialists can do and are held to the same standards. They can do root canals, braces, wisdom teeth, implants etc. Most refer difficult cases, but there are general dentists removing impacted wisdom teeth for a living. They are held to the same standards and cannot advertise themselves as oral surgeons.

 

[ToothJockey]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would assume it would be similar in competitiveness to Dermatology. Both make 400-500k avg, 40 hrs/week.

That's how competitiveness is judged right? $ and lifestyle?

 

[slowthai]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would assume it would be similar in competitiveness to Dermatology. Both make 400-500k avg, 40 hrs/week.

That's how competitiveness is judged right? $ and lifestyle?

Well, it's that, perceived prestige (inside and outside of medicine), and total number of spots relative to number of applicants.

 

[ToothJockey]

Well, it's that, perceived prestige (inside and outside of medicine), and total number of spots relative to number of applicants.

Hmmm, then I guess OS might be more competitive because you can call yourself a surgeon

 

[scoopdaboop]

OS would be competitive if it went the md/do route. It wouldn’t beat derm 1 bit because derm residency is much easier, and the potential for a mohs fellowship in derm along with the 800k salary associated with that is higher than os.

 

[PieOHmy]

dermpath is great too.

With regards to Oral Surgery, if I were to do it and I was a DDS, I would not get a medical degree. With a medical degree you have to deal with State Licensing boards. State licensing boards are notoriously vicious when disciplining physicians. The counterpart dental boards are a lot more reasonable i feel.

 

[ToothJockey]

OS would be competitive if it went the md/do route. It wouldn’t beat derm 1 bit because derm residency is much easier, and the potential for a mohs fellowship in derm along with the 800k salary associated with that is higher than os.

I imagine Mohs is the toughest subspecialty in all of medicine to get into right? Not only do you have match the most competitive specialty, but then you also gotta outcompete other Derm gunners for the fellowship spots. Neurosurgeon salary for Derm hours, they honestly deserve it. What percent of dermatologists become Mohs surgeons?

 

[scoopdaboop]

os will never go md route anyways, becuase you have to know teeth. If by some miracle it did go md/do route, dds students would be at a big disadvantage because the CBSE is much easier than usmle and dds students struggle with the cbse, and they're competing with better applicants. For the students that quit med school to go to DDS just for oral surgery that's honestly hilarious lmao.

 

[Splenda88]

os will never go md route anyways, becuase you have to know teeth. If by some miracle it did go md/do route, dds students would be at a big disadvantage because the CBSE is much easier than usmle and dds students struggle with the cbse, and they're competing with better applicants. For the students that quit med school to go to DDS just for oral surgery that's honestly hilarious lmao.

I thought CBSE was basically like step 1.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I thought CBSE was basically like step 1.

it is watered down clinically. "A CBSE score of 70 is approximately equivalent to a score of 200 on the United States Medical Licensing Examination® (USMLE®) Step 1. "

I got the above quote here: https://www.nbme.org/PDF/SampleScoreReports/CBSE - Score Report.pdf

 

[Splenda88]

it is watered down clinically. "A CBSE score of 70 is approximately equivalent to a score of 200 on the United States Medical Licensing Examination® (USMLE®) Step 1. "

I got the above quote here: https://www.nbme.org/PDF/SampleScoreReports/CBSE - Score Report.pdf

I remember seeing that a CBSE of 70 is a competitive score. Damn! I could have been an oral surgeon 😛 .

 

[slowthai]

I remember seeing that a CBSE of 70 is a competitive score. Damn! I could have been an oral surgeon 😛 .

Lol, I know right? Imagine doing the first two years of med school, transferring to dental school, and just smashing the CBSE (80+). OMFS programs (especially 6 yr MD) would just accept you on the spot. AND you get the MD that you originally abandoned?? What a deal. This would be such an easy path to OMFS, barring the transfer part, lol.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Lol, I know right? Imagine doing the first two years of med school, smashing the CBSE (82+) and transferring to dental school. OMFS programs (especially 6 yr MD) would just accept you on the spot. AND you get the MD that you originally abandoned?? What a deal. This would be such an easy path to OMFS, barring the transfer part, lol.

so you wanna do 2 years of med, then 2 more years of dent, then 6 years of omfs??? y not just do something like ortho + hip and joint for 800k median salary. Or even optho + retina. hell even pathology + dermapathology will get u 500k median. Mean DR salary is like 450-600k depending on location, and residency is much more chill than any surgical one. IM to Gastroenterology prolly makes more too.

 

[slowthai]

so you wanna do 2 years of med, then 2 more years of dent, then 6 years of omfs??? y not just do something like ortho + hip and joint for 800k median salary. Or even optho + retina. hell even pathology + dermapathology will get u 500k median. Mean DR salary is like 450-600k depending on location, and residency is much more chill than any surgical one. IM to Gastroenterology prolly makes more too.

I was obviously joking, lol. We're talking about OMFS here, not those other specialties. Plus, orthopods specializing in joints are not making anywhere near 800K. The only ones reaching that are the ones doing spine.

Edit: And if you wanna compare ortho, the pathway is the same length as my hypothetical med school to OMFS (MD) pathway. 4 yrs of med school, 5 yrs of residency, 1 yr of fellowship. It's the same length.
Furthermore, you don't even have to do a 6 year program if you don't want to. The 4 year programs are an option too.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I was obviously joking, lol. We're talking about OMFS here, not those other specialties. Plus, orthopods specializing in joints are not making anywhere near 800K. The only ones reaching that are the ones doing spine.

not true m8, 2019 MGMA total compensation by geographic section has:

Orthopedic surgery: hip and joint: Eastern median at 802,993, Midwest median at 768,546, Soutehrn median at 750,000 and western median at 807,296.

 

[scoopdaboop]

I was obviously joking, lol. We're talking about OMFS here, not those other specialties. Plus, orthopods specializing in joints are not making anywhere near 800K. The only ones reaching that are the ones doing spine.

also, i understand that this was about omfs, but many other posts have compared it to medical residencies, and I was doing the same. Clearly, OMFS is still a top notch specialty for lifestyle and salary, but I definetly think there's better and more prestigious ones. If all you care about is money and lifestyle, then you should get really good at math, and work in wall street.

 

[slowthai]

not true m8, 2019 MGMA total compensation by geographic section has:

Orthopedic surgery: hip and joint: Eastern median at 802,993, Midwest median at 768,546, Soutehrn median at 750,000 and western median at 807,296.

I would love to see a source for this. If you're right, I stand corrected and I am greatly surprised. Never ever heard of these numbers unless you're at the top end.

 

[Splenda88]

so you wanna do 2 years of med, then 2 more years of dent, then 6 years of omfs??? y not just do something like ortho + hip and joint for 800k median salary. Or even optho + retina. hell even pathology + dermapathology will get u 500k median. Mean DR salary is like 450-600k depending on location, and residency is much more chill than any surgical one. IM to Gastroenterology prolly makes more too.

Yeah, but you forgot one needs 250+ in step1 for these specialties. 220 is ~80 for CBSE, which is extremely competitive for OMFS.

 

[slowthai]

also, i understand that this was about omfs, but many other posts have compared it to medical residencies, and I was doing the same. Clearly, OMFS is still a top notch specialty for lifestyle and salary, but I definetly think there's better and more prestigious ones. If all you care about is money and lifestyle, then you should get really good at math, and work in wall street.

The reason why I said "we're talking about OMFS" is because I was responding to Splenda's joke about potentially becoming an OMFS from the medical side. That's why I found it surprising that you mentioned those specialties.

"Better" and "more prestigious" are subjective at this level. The money to lifestyle ratio of OMFS is unbeatable by every other medical field except for maybe derm.

Again, the context here is within medicine/dentistry. If people want to do math and work in Wall Street, that's their prerogative.

 

[scoopdaboop]

The reason why I said "we're talking about OMFS" is because I was responding to Splenda's joke about potentially becoming an OMFS from the medical side. That's why I found it surprising that you mentioned those specialties.

"Better" and "more prestigious" are subjective at this level. The money to lifestyle ratio of OMFS is unbeatable by every other medical field except for maybe derm.

Again, the context here is within medicine/dentistry. If people want to do math and work in Wall Street, that's their prerogative.

fair enough.

 

[slowthai]

Scoop was right, guys. Joints people are making BANK right now. Madness.