Would you apply DO if the occasional stigma did not exist?

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ditritium monoxide

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http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om

Looking at information about philosophy of OMM, and having heard multiple anecdotes about D.O.'s tending to be more compassionate than the M.D.'s they work with, I gotta say that I think it'd be great if there were no stigmas certain residency programs held about D.O.'s, and if D.O. schools were cheaper. If these two things held true, would you be more willing to apply D.O.?
 
Alright looks like this thread isn't going to go well. A mod can delete this as needed.
 
Yes. It seems like such an advantage to also have additional osteopathic skills to offer in the care of your patients! It just gives patients more options to try say if, for instance, a patient is really bad about taking their medications regularly, etc.
 
ditritium monoxide said:
http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om

Looking at information about philosophy of OMM, and having heard multiple anecdotes about D.O.'s tending to be more compassionate than the M.D.'s they work with, I gotta say that I think it'd be great if there were no stigmas certain residency programs held about D.O.'s, and if D.O. schools were cheaper. If these two things held true, would you be more willing to apply D.O.?
Click to expand...

I'd hold out for 6" talking tacos that defecate ice cream.
 
ditritium monoxide said:
http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om

Looking at information about philosophy of OMM, and having heard multiple anecdotes about D.O.'s tending to be more compassionate than the M.D.'s they work with, I gotta say that I think it'd be great if there were no stigmas certain residency programs held about D.O.'s, and if D.O. schools were cheaper. If these two things held true, would you be more willing to apply D.O.?
Click to expand...

As a D.O. student I think it will be great that I have something extra to offer patients while still providing all other facets of medicine. It's up to the student to take their osteopathic class seriously enough and keep up with it and use it to be able to offer manipulative treatment to patients. It's really a great class. It also has helped me with other aspects of medical school such as devolping my hand skills as well as how I "look" at a patient from a biomechanical perspective.

However, compassion isn't something that is related to osteopathic medicine. That is up to individual doctor.
 
ditritium monoxide said:
http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om

Looking at information about philosophy of OMM, and having heard multiple anecdotes about D.O.'s tending to be more compassionate than the M.D.'s they work with, I gotta say that I think it'd be great if there were no stigmas certain residency programs held about D.O.'s, and if D.O. schools were cheaper. If these two things held true, would you be more willing to apply D.O.?
Click to expand...

If there was no stigma, I think many more would be willing to apply to DO from the get go and not as a backup in January when they have no acceptances to MD schools.

Don't get caught up in the statement in bold. There are many MD's who are just as compassionate to their patients and are very much down to earth people.
 
There is some efficacy, especially relating to musculoskeletal issues. Whenever I have a sore elbow, or neck pain, I make a beeline for my colleagues in our OMT dept, Drs ED or KC. It amazing how they fix me.

Yet a good chunk OMT remains in the realm of unproven claims, and probably is more based upon observer bias. There is a lot of subjectivity and my students complain bitterly at exam time how Dr A tests one technique one way, and Dr B tests the same technique a different way.

Some things that are overtly preposterous may be efficacious, but require a more realistic explanation (like craniosacral therapy...those bones do NOT move.) Foundations like Chapman's points are unproven.

A lot of the techniques for a particular ailment are very testable as hypotheses. I am dumbfounded that many of my DO colleagues are unwilling to test their cherished notions. The nature of Medicine is that if something doesn't work, you toss i tout and try something else.

The big picture that DOs are more holistic that MDs is insulting to our MD colleagues. If one is going to make a claim, it needs to be backed up with data. the claim might have been true 100+ years ago when there were very few things that were effective as treatments.

There might be some patient satisfaction surveys out there somewhere, but I'd be happier if we could see them.

I tell my more skeptical students "just suspend your disbelief and see if you can learn something useful". I believe that the palpatory skills and the comfort in touching other human beings does yield positive effects in the doctor/patient relationship.

The DO stigma is less about OMT now and more about poor clinical training in years 3 and 4.

wildcherry said:
I'm sorry if this is a dumb or offensive question, I know very little, but I sincerely want to know, how legit is the OMM stuff taught in DO schools? I know it's said that in the end both MDs and DOs are pretty much the same, but I'm genuinely wondering how much impact OMM has. I've always been interested in natural medicine and the like, but as we all know homeopathy is not taken very seriously. Still, the fact that DO schools offer something other than traditional medicine is intriguing to me. From what I've seen, medicines can be as harmful as they are helpful.

So is OMM just a tacked-on thing that sounds good, or is it a legit methodology that is useful?
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
There is some efficacy, especially relating to musculoskeletal issues. Whenever I have a sore elbow, or neck pain, I make a beeline for my colleagues in our OMT dept, Drs ED or KC. It amazing how they fix me.

Yet a good chunk OMT remains in the realm of unproven claims, and probably is more based upon observer bias. There is a lot of subjectivity and my students complain bitterly at exam time how Dr A tests one technique one way, and Dr B tests the same technique a different way.

Some things that are overtly preposterous may be efficacious, but require a more realistic explanation (like craniosacral therapy...those bones do NOT move.) Foundations like Chapman's points are unproven.

A lot of the techniques for a particular ailment are very testable as hypotheses. I am dumbfounded that many of my DO colleagues are unwilling to test their cherished notions. The nature of Medicine is that if something doesn't work, you toss i tout and try something else.

The big picture that DOs are more holistic that MDs is insulting to our MD colleagues. If one is going to make a claim, it needs to be backed up with data. the claim might have been true 100+ years ago when there were very few things that were effective as treatments.

There might be some patient satisfaction surveys out there somewhere, but I'd be happier if we could see them.

I tell my more skeptical students "just suspend your disbelief and see if you can learn something useful". I believe that the palpatory skills and the comfort in touching other human beings does yield positive effects in the doctor/patient relationship.

The DO stigma is less about OMT now and more about poor clinical training in years 3 and 4.
Click to expand...

This should be stickied. 👍
 
Both posts are correct. The very competitive specialties are much, much harder for DO grads to get into. Some are damn near impossible. Hell, they're hard enough for MDs to get into! That's why they're competitive. Yet about 30% of my grads do get into specialties, especially ACGME ones.

The real question to ask oneself as a pre-med is: "Do I want to be a specialist?" If so, any grad from an MD school has ~80% chance in doing so. DO grads, as mentioned = 30% chance.

But if it's "Do I want to be a doctor?" then it's ~100% for either.

Oddly, if you want to be a general surgeon, then the odds are 5% no matter where you go! There's a medical education paper in that, right there.


LoveBeingHuman:) said:
It's more than just stigma. It limits career options.
Click to expand...

frosted_flake said:
No, limiting career options is going Caribbean or not going to medical school at all...
Neurosurgery: http://www.stjohnprovidence.org/providencegme/residencyprograms/osteopathicneurosurgery/
Dermatology: http://www.aocd.org/search/newsearch.asp
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
Both posts are correct. The very competitive specialties are much, much harder for DO grads to get into. Some are damn near impossible. Hell, they're hard enough for MDs to get into! That's why they're competitive. Yet about 30% of my grads do get into specialties, especially ACGME ones.

The real question to ask oneself as a pre-med is: "Do I want to be a specialist?" If so, any grad from an MD school has ~80% chance in doing so. DO grads, as mentioned = 30% chance.

But if it's "Do I want to be a doctor?" then it's ~100% for either.

Oddly, if you want to be a general surgeon, then the odds are 5% no matter where you go! There's a medical education paper in that, right there.
Click to expand...
Is there a DO stigma for fellowships as well? For example, if a DO grad did a residency in pediatrics would it be more difficult for them to get into neonatology than an MD grad?
 
I'll rely on our resident colleagues to answer this...it's too far into GME from where I sit. @j4pac, any insight?


bananafish94 said:
Is there a DO stigma for fellowships as well? For example, if a DO grad did a residency in pediatrics would it be more difficult for them to get into neonatology than an MD grad?
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
There is some efficacy, especially relating to musculoskeletal issues. Whenever I have a sore elbow, or neck pain, I make a beeline for my colleagues in our OMT dept, Drs ED or KC. It amazing how they fix me.

Yet a good chunk OMT remains in the realm of unproven claims, and probably is more based upon observer bias. There is a lot of subjectivity and my students complain bitterly at exam time how Dr A tests one technique one way, and Dr B tests the same technique a different way.

Some things that are overtly preposterous may be efficacious, but require a more realistic explanation (like craniosacral therapy...those bones do NOT move.) Foundations like Chapman's points are unproven.

A lot of the techniques for a particular ailment are very testable as hypotheses. I am dumbfounded that many of my DO colleagues are unwilling to test their cherished notions. The nature of Medicine is that if something doesn't work, you toss i tout and try something else.

The big picture that DOs are more holistic that MDs is insulting to our MD colleagues. If one is going to make a claim, it needs to be backed up with data. the claim might have been true 100+ years ago when there were very few things that were effective as treatments.

There might be some patient satisfaction surveys out there somewhere, but I'd be happier if we could see them.

I tell my more skeptical students "just suspend your disbelief and see if you can learn something useful". I believe that the palpatory skills and the comfort in touching other human beings does yield positive effects in the doctor/patient relationship.

The DO stigma is less about OMT now and more about poor clinical training in years 3 and 4.
Click to expand...
There's also a lot of placebo effect related to OMT -- if you think it will make you feel better it probably will.

I don't think you choose a med school specifically for this and I think those who feel the need to say that DO is "MD plus..." are trying to overcompensate. Med school is four intense years, whether you do MD or DO. Whatever else you do during those four years comes out of time you could have spent on other subjects. So DO is "plus" OMT but at the expense of something else, i.e. it's also an "MD minus", but likely something equally peripheral/insignificant to ultimately being a good clinician.

Having worked with students from both MD and DO programs, there are definitely differences in knowledge base, with a few glaring but different gaps for some. But having worked with attendings with both these degrees, this clearly doesn't translate into how good a doctor you will be. It might, however, funnel you into fewer competitive specialties, if that matters to you. And it will impact the letters on your white coat -- and maybe require some extra explanation at family gatherings.
 
Law2Doc said:
There's also a lot of placebo effect related to OMT -- if you think it will make you feel better it probably will.

I don't think you choose a med school specifically for this and I think those who feel the need to say that DO is "MD plus..." are trying to overcompensate. Med school is four intense years, whether you do MD or DO. Whatever else you do during those four years comes out of time you could have spent on other subjects. So DO is "plus" OMT but at the expense of something else, i.e. it's also an "MD minus", but likely something equally peripheral/insignificant to ultimately being a good clinician.

Having worked with students from both MD and DO programs, there are definitely differences in knowledge base, with a few glaring but different gaps for some. But having worked with attendings with both these degrees, this clearly doesn't translate into how good a doctor you will be. It might, however, funnel you into fewer competitive specialties, if that matters to you. And it will impact the letters on your white coat -- and maybe require some extra explanation at family gatherings.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate on these differences? I am thinking about applying to DO schools if i don't get in anywhere this cycle and this would be useful to know!
 
This isn't really addressing the topic of the thread, but regardless....

ditritium monoxide said:
multiple anecdotes about D.O.'s tending to be more compassionate than the M.D.'s they work with
Click to expand...

If anecdotes mean anything to you, which apparently they do, then I can say that where I work there are multiple DOs (and I mean a lot) who are "not compassionate." There are also many MD's who are incredibly compassionate and one in particular that is such a pleasure to work with because of how he treats his patients.

How doctors treat their patients is probably more of just who the doctor is inherently, and not the type of school they went to.
 
frosted_flake said:
No, limiting career options is going Caribbean or not going to medical school at all...
Neurosurgery: http://www.stjohnprovidence.org/providencegme/residencyprograms/osteopathicneurosurgery/
Dermatology: http://www.aocd.org/search/newsearch.asp
Click to expand...

If you want to keep the most doors open as possible, you go MD. There are many programs that don't even interview DO applicants, even in specialties like IM, FM, Peds, etc. Yes, there are AOA residencies in competitive specialties, but there certainly is limitation when compared to MD.
 
This is purely my n=1 observation, but I believe the stigma exists because the bottom 20% of DO students give the entire degree a bad name. DO matriculant stats are rising closer to MD levels, so hopefully this will go away with time, but there are some incredibly umm, well, "academically challenged" DO students and graduates. I see some students that make me wonder how the hell they scored above average on the MCAT. I imagine this translates into GME as well, where residency programs see the immense knowledge deficiencies that some students have and spread the word about how DO schools don't adequately prepare their students.

On the other hand, I've seen other DO students that would be in the top 5% of any MD school. I consider myself a middle-of-the-pack guy, so it doesn't bother me as much, but I feel so bad for these guys that should be matching top academic programs but will end up at a community hospital for basically no reason at all.
 
Goro said:
I'll rely on our resident colleagues to answer this...it's too far into GME from where I sit. @j4pac, any insight?
Click to expand...

@Goro asking for my advice, kind of cool.

I do think that DO limits you in fellowship applications, just as it limits you for particular ACGME residents. DOs to ACGME is a rather new phenomenon , allowed by the successes of DO students and the fall of IMG/FMGs. But there are still many programs and specialties who won't accept DOs. The largest part of this isn't because of blind hate for the competition of MDs...it's fear of the unknown. Why take a DO when all of these MDs have worked out in the past? The track-record is set.

Fellowship typically takes a pool of the most competitive ACGME residents...and that is how DOs are at a disadvantage. Not to mention that when you reach the fellowship level, many of those programs have NEVER had a DO.

I will likely be applying in a few years to a few Sports Med programs that have never had a DO. I still feel like I can match...but only because I plan to gain support from the leaders of the field. But no question...I'm going to have to put in more work to convince them to give me a shot.

My two best friends from med school are an Allergy/Immunologist and Forensic Psychiatrist. Both went to top programs. They weren't phenomenal med students, but were like able and motivated. You can match to fellowship...but prepared to go above and beyond.
 
Last edited:
I applied to both because, like many other people have said on here, I want to be a physician. However, on a more personal level I'm 95% sure I want to do emergency medicine and work with EMS crews as a medical director. So when I've been doing my paramedic clinical time in the ED's around where I live I saw at least half, if not more, are DO's. Many of the medical directors around here are DO's also. So for me the stigma doesn't matter because it's not really going to affect my career possibilities. Plus I've seen and read that EM is very DO friendly. I would just say do your research and think about it at a very personal level.


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