On one hand, I want to be a physician and I think i'll be perfectly content being a DO. However, on the other hand, I worry that even if i do well in school and on the board, i still might end 'empty handed' when the match comes along (my DO mentor said you need good scores, grades, and LUCK to get a ROAD speciality as a DO, which bothers me). So, if you could do it again, would you postpone your education a year and go to an MD school? I don't really care about initials, I just want every opportunity availble. My stats are 3.94 gpa and 28 mcat, which i believe i could improve significantly. Just an honest response would be nice.
Would you do it again?
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I wouldn't (nor did I need to) postpone for a year. Excellent scores and grades (and great LOR's, research experience [preferably with publications], and good interview skills) will get you a road residency. With ROAD, luck is a factor as well, regardless of your degree. You may end up applying for a ROAD residency, or you may not- you never know what you may end up liking later on in years 3 and 4. Do your best in school and maximize your CV, and everything will fall into place. When people (with the stats- regardless of degree) don't match, they take a year off and do research within the field in order to strengthen their portfolio. This gives them an edge in the applicant pool for the coming year.
P.S. For readers: ROAD=Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology.
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Point of clarification: ROAD residencies- typically referred to as "lifestyle" residencies (ie: relatively predictable hours, relatively high income). While Jaggerplate was joking when he added in surgery, this may add to confusion. Surgery can have relatively high, unpredictable hours, which are not characteristic in general of the other aforementioned specialties.
Is there anything 'wrong' with AOA ROAD residencies? I only ask because when looking at the match lists posted here on SDN, people brag about how many allopathic spots they matched. The only things I can think of are 1) maybe they are not as good quaility 2) there are less fellowship options after completeing an AOA residency. Either of those true? Or is there something else?
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Fellowship options will primarily depend on how impressive your CV is, and on your performance in residency (AOA/ACGME/dually accredited), and as a resident/attending. Residency "prestige" (and type: ie community vs. academic) will carry some value, but less than the aforementioned criteria of what makes an applicant an attractive candidate. ACGME fellowships are also open to AOA residency graduates.
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Let me get this straight----you're not in medical school at this point but yet you're already worried about getting into a 'lifestyle' residency? I would seriously rethink why the hell I wanted to go through all of this first?
In case you haven't figured it out, observing/shadowing/living with somebody doing something is a whole lot different from doing it yourself with the requisite responsibility that goes with it. Kinda like the difference between watching an engine being rebuilt and deciding to take yours apart on your garage floor. You eff it up and YOU now have to spend the $$$ to get it going again vs. saying, 'Wow, that's a real bummer, what are you going to do, dude?'......
If you're going into it for the money or the lifestyle, go into sales. As a radiology resident once told me, if you can see yourself doing anything else, do it. If you're going in for the money, become a real estate investor. Less stress, better hours, better income potential.......
I've heard dip**** classmates saying that if they weren't making $250K after medical school they'd consider it a waste. I'm thinking they are the classic high school-college-medical school route and are in for a rude effing awakening when they have to start paying the bills.......
In case you haven't figured it out, observing/shadowing/living with somebody doing something is a whole lot different from doing it yourself with the requisite responsibility that goes with it. Kinda like the difference between watching an engine being rebuilt and deciding to take yours apart on your garage floor. You eff it up and YOU now have to spend the $$$ to get it going again vs. saying, 'Wow, that's a real bummer, what are you going to do, dude?'......
If you're going into it for the money or the lifestyle, go into sales. As a radiology resident once told me, if you can see yourself doing anything else, do it. If you're going in for the money, become a real estate investor. Less stress, better hours, better income potential.......
I've heard dip**** classmates saying that if they weren't making $250K after medical school they'd consider it a waste. I'm thinking they are the classic high school-college-medical school route and are in for a rude effing awakening when they have to start paying the bills.......
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In defense of the OP, I think it's more of a concern of keeping options open for him/her, which is perfectly understandable, as there is no telling what he/she may end up enjoying later down the road (may not even end up wanting to go into a ROAD residency).
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Thanks, you are right. I am pretty sure i am going to try for IM, but I want to be able to do whatever I want if I got the scores, that's all.
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I've got news for you, Billy-Boy...I have been an attending anesthesiologist for the past 5 years and I couldn't agree more with your classmates. Perhaps it is you who is the dipsh*t.
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I'm sorry...did you just say you agree that "If someone can't make >250k a year, you would have considered med school a waste?"
Now I don't think JustPlainBill presented his case very tactfully but if you agree with the above quote, I find that to be a shame.
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yeah, i'd go to an MD school. hands down.
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I did and I stand by my words.
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Sounds like you're not too happy making OVER $250k. Got some ideas for how to fill all those <$150k primary care jobs?
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I'm not familiar with the ROAD acronym but I'm thinking the O stands for Orthopedics and not ophthalmology.
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Optho
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I'm not familiar with the ROAD acronym but I'm thinking the O stands for Orthopedics and not ophthalmology.
Nope. ROAD = lifestyle residencies.
Radiology, Opthalmology, Anesthesia, and Dermatology.
These are not the only difficult residencies to get accepted into, but they are the difficult easier lifestyle medical careers and are grouped together.
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Riiiight...because being an attending without knowing anything else about the guy makes his opinion that much more viable than mine. Much like I'm sure you believe your opinion is much more viable than mine because you're currently a med student. I know nothing about healthcare, I have only worked in the field for nearly 10 years.
If everyone had the same view as Congsigliere our health care system would suffer much more than it currently is. Many share his opinion, which as I stated in MY opinion is a shame, but a reality.
Obivously you share his opinion, I only hope it is because you actually formulated that opinion yourself and that it has nothing to do with your "god like idolization" of Congsigliere, and the fact he is an attending.
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?? I'm confused... all else equal, you would take a job for less money?
No doubt, if pediatrics or FP is your passion, then thats what you do, life is too short to be miserable. But most people don't have a calling within medicine... I've only been on rotations 3 weeks and can see how this can get to be "just a job"...If you can't see yourself doing anything else, then do it...But otherwise you go for the money and the best of the worst. Thats why the OP's mentor was right, you DO need to do well in med school (once you get there) so that you're not miserable for the rest of your life. I don't think you need as much luck though.
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To clarify --- in certain instances, tact is not my strong suit ----
But --- I've lived long enough and been around the block a few times...enough to know that 6 figure salaries aren't the answer. Been there, done that in a field I went into for the money....Worked my butt off at a job I really didn't care for, sacrificed for the company, had the 'office with a view', 4 weeks of vacation, good health care and all the rest of it, along with the 6 figure salary. For about the last 5 years, my wife had to force me to go to work as I despised it so much and no amount of cashola could make me love it or tolerate it well enough to do another year. It was a major relief when I finally left the field.
So--- if you're in it for the money, you're in for a rude awakening.
And yes, assuming anyone on the internet is who they say they are, I do respect attendings but realize that their defecation is odiferous, just like mine and they put their pants on just like I do and in the end, they don't walk on water......I'll do what they say in the right setting (like clinic, hospital, medical situation) but that doesn't make their opinions on other things any less valid than mine. Hell, I'm old enough in some cases to be their dad and have seen enough people get promoted/squeak by when they really didn't deserve it. NOTE: I am NOT, repeat NOT, saying anything about consigliere. If he truly is an anesthesiology attending, I respect what he's had to do to get there.
To answer the basic question: Yes, I would take a job for less money. I've done it because it meant time away from my family and kids. I never regretted that decision. You can always save up and buy that new car or whatever, but you'll never be able to buy your childs first steps or first day of school....capish?
So, with that said, I'll shut up now.....
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Here here, Bill.
Way to stick to your guns. I love the types of conversations I see on SDN.
"Defecate is such a proper term-"
>>This thread makes me think that DO school might be a little more fun<<
...of course, I'm looking at Neuro/Psych so either road would be appropriate for me.
Keep talkin', Bill-- NONTRADS UNITE.
Way to stick to your guns. I love the types of conversations I see on SDN.
"Defecate is such a proper term-"
>>This thread makes me think that DO school might be a little more fun<<
...of course, I'm looking at Neuro/Psych so either road would be appropriate for me.
Keep talkin', Bill-- NONTRADS UNITE.
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No. It seems as though you feel that in order to have a good lifestyle in medicine you have to work long hours for your entire life? I hope you know thats not the case... ESP if you do well in school...
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I don't think that surgery fits, b/c the ROAD mnemonic is all about 'lifestyle' specialties: lots of money, good schedule.
EDIT: I posted before reading everyone else's resplies. DOH!
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Not quite my point ----
All I was saying was that if you're chasing money (i.e. If I'm not making $250K after medical school, it'll be a waste of my time), IMNSHO, you may want to reconsider. While having money sure beats not having money, making more money is not necessarily the answer.
I know of a case where a couple both worked for a large engineering concern and were both making a nice 6 figure income. They dropped their daughter off at daycare, went to work and picked her up at night, usually around 7 pm (daycare stayed open late to cater to this niche). Well, they didn't get the message one day when their kiddo greeted the security guard who came out to the car to unbuckle her out of her carseat and help her with her backpack with ,"Good morning, Daddy". Neither did they get the message when the kiddo said goodbye to the daycare teacher with 'Goodnight, Mommy'........The husband stated,"You can bet we spent some quality time together that Saturday AFTER the golf game'.......
To me, no amount of money is worth that.......Believe me, I'm not wallowing in dough right now and I've had times where I couldn't afford to buy the kiddos a Happy Meal.....but watching my son make a diving block to stop a goal in soccer or my daughter put one right into the net to tie the game is a gift I couldn't buy for all the money in the world......
But that's me....so I'll be content with having a steady job that's not subject to the whims of corporate MBAs and being able to put my kids through college.......and no, it won't be a waste. I'll get to provide a service that helps people at their point of need.....
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I always thought of it as competitiveness of landing a residency in that field. Either way ... I really think that certain surgical sub-specialties like ENT or Integrated Plastics are extremely competitive for the same reason Derm and Gas are.
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I honestly feel sorry for you. I am not mad or upset, just sad that you think your efforts in medicine must be qualified with a monetary reward. You can't take it with you and 150k is plenty of money to live comfortably in a sizable home in the burbs ...especially if your significant other is working as well.
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I don't deny that there might be unique challenges to the DO road but I work with tons of DOs at Children's Hopsital of Philadelphia which is the #1 children's hospital in the country. It takes work and a lot of these docs had research and strong ACGME residencies but they really earned it. And after speaking with them, I found out that they didn't feel it was the DO thing hurting or helping them as much as it was their academic credentials and schools they came out of.
I mean who's to say that if you go to an MD school you would still land a super residency in a very "prestigous" specialty or hospital? Med school is tough whether that be at a DO or MD school and you have to make the right grades, rock the boards...etc no matter what school you go to to even be considered for ROAD specialities or whatever you are interested in.
I think it might be helpful to talk to DO fellows, residents, attendings,....whatever to get a true sense of whether this is the path for you. Everything after that, no matter where you go, is up to you!
Good luck!
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You need these same elements to match ROAD as an MD, too. People need to understand that these are very competitive residencies in general.
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Couple of points...
(1) An admission is better than no admission. That having been said...
(2) If you go DO, be prepared to waste a lot of time and brainspace the first two years paying homage to the gods of chiropractic as you memorize and get tested on a lot of stuff that will be irrelevant to your future life. You will work harder your first two years of med school than you would the MD route to acquire an equivalent knowledge of real medicine because your time bank will have this "other" demand placed on it in the form of OMM.
(3) Getting into competitive residencies as a DO will mean taking the USMLE exams in addition to the COMLEX so count on taking 6 board exams by graduation instead of 3.
(4) There is a trend for USMLE scores to parallel MCAT scores. While this is an imperfect correlation, statistically it holds true. Getting a ROADE residency is going to take a two digit USMLE Step I score somewhere in the 95 range (with 99 being the highest possible two digit score). That's probably around 2 SDs above average. So unless you can significantly improve that 28, it's not a good statistical predictor of nailing down a ROADE residency.
Wherever you decide to go, make sure you explore the details of the curriculum/student life at the institutions you get into. Medical schools vary not only in what is included in their curricula, but also when it comes to things like dress code, mandatory lab attendance, and mandatory lecture attendance. Pick one that's a good fit because there's a great deal more variability between them than undergrad institutions.
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OP: If you boost your MCAT score by a few points you should have a decent enough application for MD schools. If you are entering medicine in hopes of landing a ROADS (the S usually refers to plastic Surgery which is currently the #1 most difficult specialty to match into) keep in mind that you will be competing against the very top strata of all medical students...ie the ones who likely scored in the 36-45 range on their MCATs. As someone who is not in the top strata of applicants the chances that you will be one of the top dogs in med school is there but not high.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but just putting things into perspective. As a good DO students you may Match into some nice ACGME residencies or you may find that you'll have more options doing the AOA Match which include almost all the same specialties. Re-take the MCAT, give AMCAS a shot, and if it doesn't work out then you can worry about plan B.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but just putting things into perspective. As a good DO students you may Match into some nice ACGME residencies or you may find that you'll have more options doing the AOA Match which include almost all the same specialties. Re-take the MCAT, give AMCAS a shot, and if it doesn't work out then you can worry about plan B.
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OP, there appears to be a common theme that can be gleaned from this thread. With ROAD, having an alternate degree will not help you provided you don't have the total package. The saying that things will be more difficult is an excuse for subpar (as it pertains to the specialty of interest) academic performance. Many students match into very competitive residencies (top ranked within the specialty of interest) (AOA/ACGME)- you will find many of them here on SDN, and within your school's match lists. Good luck in your application to medical school. Aside from any discussion pertaining to ROAD, pick the school which is the cheapest, from the choices available to you, and do well academically.
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Being that I'm at a DO school, obviously some bias:
Regarding OMM, definitely not a waste of time. Are some aspects a waste, fair question.
Regarding getting a ROAD, I'd rather compete in a smaller pool of applicants.
Regarding going to a DO school, I can only speak for OUCOM:
Excellent school, excellent town, and looking forward to outdoing my allopathic counterparts for the first few years before they catch up.
Regarding OMM, definitely not a waste of time. Are some aspects a waste, fair question.
Regarding getting a ROAD, I'd rather compete in a smaller pool of applicants.
Regarding going to a DO school, I can only speak for OUCOM:
Excellent school, excellent town, and looking forward to outdoing my allopathic counterparts for the first few years before they catch up.
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Let's not try and scare the OP just for the sake of trying to scare the OP. Although I completely agree with your point that OMM can push out more valuable information, the two above are completely false in my opinion.
You need to take 5 board exams (no need to take USMLE CS exam, doesn't do any good), if you're going to do the ACGME route. In fact, most of my friend only took 4, with the extra exam being usmle step 1; if you do well on that, no need to take CK. And these classmates of mine have all successfully match into "ROAD" residencies.
As for MCAT scores correlating with board scores, I can only attest to my own experience and many friends of mine. Our board scores are significantly better than our MCATs. I think most of us can agree that the two exams are completely different. You can memorize the content of board exams easily, but MCAT definitely no chance of doing that.
And finally, a two digit score of 95 on the USMLE I correlates top about a 230. This mean is around 215 with a SD of 25 --> so a 240 would be 84th percentile. That means 230 is around 65-70th percentile; saying that 2 SD above the mean correlates with a 95 is way off; the would be a 265 (99).
So, to the OP, please take what people say on here with a grain of salt. If you can get into an MD school I say go for it; but at a DO school you will do just fine if you work hard and are determined. If you love medicine, go for it.
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I agree with you here wholeheartedly.
Now, I've only just begun my medical school career recently, but from what I have experienced, OMM is not entirely difficult to understand and comprehend. Also, if you would recollect, I believe it was the "gods of chiropracty" that took OMM from AT Still and begun their own school, but what do I know? Regardless of that, OMM is an enjoyable way to learn not only how to manipulate your patient in order to provide an alternative means of release from a negative stimulus, but it, more importantly, teaches you as a future physician how to touch your patient and learn something from that touch. What does fascia feel like? What does muscle feel like? What does a tendon feel like? What do they feel like when they're abnormal? It is not a way to diagnose your patient, but a way to provide clues to the overall problem as well as provide a temporary level of ease an comfort to the patient in pain.
Not necessarily. There are quality DO residencies in many competitive fields. While the majority of your well-paying, nice-hours residency programs will be ACGME-based, it is not a requirement that you take the USMLE in order to land a solid residency. If you want to maximize your options later on down the road, then take the USMLE and the COMLEX. If you simply wish to apply through the DO-route and work in an Osteopathic setting, then the COMLEX will do wonders for you. Also, after the rigors of a medical school program, the only problem with taking the extra exams would be scheduling conflicts. I don't necessarily forsee any different study patterns than I would normally encouter when preparing for a board exam.
I don't necessarily agree with that, either. During your first two years of medical school (and in my case, two weeks), you learn how to change your study habits instantaneously in order to absorb all of the information coming your way. To simply say that one who does poorly on the MCAT will most likely do poorly on the USMLE is basically saying that one who did poorly on the SAT will do poorly on the MCAT: both tests are testing over a different knowledge base than the other. In undergrad you were never tested as rigorously as you were when you had taken the MCAT the first time. Medical school exams are, however, preparing you to, eventually, take lengthy board exams that test you over minute details (i.e., the maturation process of the T-Helper Lymphocyte in primary lymphatic tissue).
This is well put.
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The thing is, in many of the ROADE residencies there are far fewer slots available through the osteopathic match than through the allopathic match. Furthermore, the residencies simply aren't of the same quality. In fact, even among some countries that recognize the US DO as equivalent to the MD degree, they don't recognize US osteopathic GME as GME.
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The Truth is that when you sign up for ERAS, you are considered to be in the same boat as a International medical grad, when NRMP (national Residency Matching program) runs its stats, the majority of them are evaluated as, "US Seniors" ie- MD students, and then there is an "everyone else category"
Right now i am in my fourth year, and i am trying to figure out which states are more, "DO friendly" just so I won't have to burn a month on rotations and get a good residency.
So would I do it over again? I am not sure, I only applied to DO schools, and I would definetely have applied to a few MD schools just to leave my options open.
I think that anyone planning on going to medical school should definetely know the basics about ERAS and the match before making their decision. I think that there is a lot that DO's have to offer, but i also believe that there is a lot in-house fighting and bickering about silly things like "OMS IV or MSO IV" Today medicine is all about brand recognition, kowing which hospital has the best track record in heart care, or just seeing enough billboards for the local health care system might affect the way you think. My opinion is that when Osteopathic Medicine first came around, it was something that was really novel. Now, maintstream health is blurring the lines into DO thinking. The MD's have taken the wind out of our sails and coined it as their "evolution of medicine". What we as DO's need to do is band together, and present a unified front to the public. Osteopathic Medicine has had over 100 years to become part of the mainstream, yet it has not done so, all of us must ask ourselves why and what can we do about it.
Right now i am in my fourth year, and i am trying to figure out which states are more, "DO friendly" just so I won't have to burn a month on rotations and get a good residency.
So would I do it over again? I am not sure, I only applied to DO schools, and I would definetely have applied to a few MD schools just to leave my options open.
I think that anyone planning on going to medical school should definetely know the basics about ERAS and the match before making their decision. I think that there is a lot that DO's have to offer, but i also believe that there is a lot in-house fighting and bickering about silly things like "OMS IV or MSO IV" Today medicine is all about brand recognition, kowing which hospital has the best track record in heart care, or just seeing enough billboards for the local health care system might affect the way you think. My opinion is that when Osteopathic Medicine first came around, it was something that was really novel. Now, maintstream health is blurring the lines into DO thinking. The MD's have taken the wind out of our sails and coined it as their "evolution of medicine". What we as DO's need to do is band together, and present a unified front to the public. Osteopathic Medicine has had over 100 years to become part of the mainstream, yet it has not done so, all of us must ask ourselves why and what can we do about it.
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From someone who went through all of this...
To set the scene, I did horrible on the MCATs (well, average) but did not have a chance to get into an MD school, no way. The ultimate goal was for me to become a doctor and I too was skeptical about osteopathic medicine, in fact, I didn't even know what it was and came across it while trying to apply to MANY MD schools. I learned about it, shadowed a few DOs, and felt that the training was well suited for primary care. I wanted to go into FP or pediatrics so I was on board. My impression was that DOs were well accepted in the primary care fields. So, besides not being able to say that I'm an "MD", I had no other reservations. Also, I was on the Air Force HPSP, an arena where DOs are not as much of a minority.
My DO school was amazing. Sure, there are deficiencies at all schools, but overall, my education and training was more than adequate...and I'd compare it to any other medical school in the country (MD or DO). I never regretted going to a DO school, but I did have some anxiety when my direction lead me towards surgery or a surgical subspecialty. And, in order to broaden my options, I decided I would take the USMLE step I as well. I was very fortunate to do well and my score was a direct reflection of my osteopathic medical school curriculum...nothing else special or additional.
So, when I decided on a very competitive surgical subspecialty at an allopathic program, I was very nervous. I absolutely believe that I had to work harder to get noticed in my application and I had to do extra (away rotations) to prove that I could back up my application. But, hard work does pay off and I was very fortunate to match at a well respected allopathic program.
My thoughts...if you want to become a doctor and the MD training has closed its doors on you, then going to DO route is a good option. BUT, if you have an inferiority complex or have a chip on your shoulder, being a DO may not be the best idea. Yes, you will sometimes get the "what's a DO?" or "are you a doctor?". But most patients see you in action and feel assured that you in fact are a doctor...proof is in the pudding I guess.
You definitely may have a harder time getting into the very competitive specialties. But radiology and anesthesia have progressively become more receptive to DO applications. Also, if you work hard, have a stellar application, and show them you're for real...how can they not match you. Ultimately, residency programs want hard workers, compassionate physicians, and team players...not a certain initial behind your name.
Also, there are many DO programs in those ROAD specialties that are open only to DO applicants. So if you're a stellar student, you could have even more opportunities towards achieving your goals than an MD student. Bottomline, it may be easier as an MD student to match into the more competitive specialties...but if you're a good student and have an excellent work ethic, then you can achieve those same goals as a DO. And for some reason, most all DO students are very hard workers. Maybe because some of us realize that a DO school took a chance on us and saw potential that an MD school didn't.
To set the scene, I did horrible on the MCATs (well, average) but did not have a chance to get into an MD school, no way. The ultimate goal was for me to become a doctor and I too was skeptical about osteopathic medicine, in fact, I didn't even know what it was and came across it while trying to apply to MANY MD schools. I learned about it, shadowed a few DOs, and felt that the training was well suited for primary care. I wanted to go into FP or pediatrics so I was on board. My impression was that DOs were well accepted in the primary care fields. So, besides not being able to say that I'm an "MD", I had no other reservations. Also, I was on the Air Force HPSP, an arena where DOs are not as much of a minority.
My DO school was amazing. Sure, there are deficiencies at all schools, but overall, my education and training was more than adequate...and I'd compare it to any other medical school in the country (MD or DO). I never regretted going to a DO school, but I did have some anxiety when my direction lead me towards surgery or a surgical subspecialty. And, in order to broaden my options, I decided I would take the USMLE step I as well. I was very fortunate to do well and my score was a direct reflection of my osteopathic medical school curriculum...nothing else special or additional.
So, when I decided on a very competitive surgical subspecialty at an allopathic program, I was very nervous. I absolutely believe that I had to work harder to get noticed in my application and I had to do extra (away rotations) to prove that I could back up my application. But, hard work does pay off and I was very fortunate to match at a well respected allopathic program.
My thoughts...if you want to become a doctor and the MD training has closed its doors on you, then going to DO route is a good option. BUT, if you have an inferiority complex or have a chip on your shoulder, being a DO may not be the best idea. Yes, you will sometimes get the "what's a DO?" or "are you a doctor?". But most patients see you in action and feel assured that you in fact are a doctor...proof is in the pudding I guess.
You definitely may have a harder time getting into the very competitive specialties. But radiology and anesthesia have progressively become more receptive to DO applications. Also, if you work hard, have a stellar application, and show them you're for real...how can they not match you. Ultimately, residency programs want hard workers, compassionate physicians, and team players...not a certain initial behind your name.
Also, there are many DO programs in those ROAD specialties that are open only to DO applicants. So if you're a stellar student, you could have even more opportunities towards achieving your goals than an MD student. Bottomline, it may be easier as an MD student to match into the more competitive specialties...but if you're a good student and have an excellent work ethic, then you can achieve those same goals as a DO. And for some reason, most all DO students are very hard workers. Maybe because some of us realize that a DO school took a chance on us and saw potential that an MD school didn't.
