Writing own LOR

[Eva_Unit01]

Hello. Long time member using a throwaway for anonymity.

I was recently asked by one of my references to write a letter of recommendation for myself, that they would then revise and sign. I have a few questions:
1. Is this ethical?
2. How does one even begin writing such a letter for oneself?

I would feel dishonest marking that the letter was confidential, when I would have clearly had access to any parts that the referrer did not edit. Do any of you have experience with this? What did you do when confronted with this situation? Thank you.

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[BeaverLover]

Sounds like a personal statement to me

 

[Weakfart]

It happens man. I'll just say this, if you're a good writer go for it. If not, find another recommender. I had someone do the same and I'm a terrible writer so I looked for another recommender.

 

[rev_rend]

This isn't that uncommon in the professional world. I edited but never wrote from scratch a letter for any of my employees.

Emphasize specific, positive, and preferably unique qualities which this person would have observed. When I've had people mention their strongest characteristics without embellishment, I've been more than happy to add embellishment myself.

 

[Eva_Unit01]

So should I keep the letter very generic, just mentioning some positive traits, and leave the embellishing to the referrer? Or should I try and include examples? I am afraid to say too many good things about myself, as I'm not the type to brag, and on top of that I don't want my referrer to read the draft and think, "Seriously?! You think I would say those great things about you? Hah!".

Also, do I keep things specific to only the types of things the referrer would have witnessed? For example, a professor would know a lot about my study habits, motivation, etc. while an employer would know about my job performance, work ethic, etc. but neither would necessarily know about my involvement in community service, or more personal traits such as compassion. Should those things be touched on anyway, or do I only use things the referrer would have seen first hand?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I'm just really at a loss for how to do this without sounding arrogant or including anything that would be inappropriate coming from the person singing the letter.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

 

[darknightzzz]

So should I keep the letter very generic, just mentioning some positive traits, and leave the embellishing to the referrer? Or should I try and include examples? I am afraid to say too many good things about myself, as I'm not the type to brag, and on top of that I don't want my referrer to read the draft and think, "Seriously?! You think I would say those great things about you? Hah!".

Also, do I keep things specific to only the types of things the referrer would have witnessed? For example, a professor would know a lot about my study habits, motivation, etc. while an employer would know about my job performance, work ethic, etc. but neither would necessarily know about my involvement in community service, or more personal traits such as compassion. Should those things be touched on anyway, or do I only use things the referrer would have seen first hand?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I'm just really at a loss for how to do this without sounding arrogant or including anything that would be inappropriate coming from the person singing the letter.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

theres nothing unethical about writing your own letter because your recommender asks you to write.

yep keep it to things you did in the office that show positive and attractive traits. dont worry about the writer who many think you brag. in case you dont know, most letter of recommendation letters are very flowery and say all the good stuff. however, the adcom wants to see examples that demonstrate and back up all these good stuff.

best wishes.

 

[Dentase]

theres nothing unethical about writing your own letter because your recommender asks you to write.

yep keep it to things you did in the office that show positive and attractive traits. dont worry about the writer who many think you brag. in case you dont know, most letter of recommendation letters are very flowery and say all the good stuff. however, the adcom wants to see examples that demonstrate and back up all these good stuff.

best wishes.

Nothing unethical? This is very unethical on both parts, the student and the dentist. However, the dentist or student might have validated their reasoning because of their interpretation of this whole application process. They might think it is a useless thing to do, which I think it is to get a LoR. However, everyone needs to do it and it would not be fair for everyone else so it would be unjust, thus unethical. I abide by Aristotle's virtue ethics and this act will not make you flourishing human being in terms of eudaimonia.
However, this is a very tempting opportunity and people do whatever they can to get ahead in this world, lie, cheat, so its up to you what kind of person you want to be.
But, yes very unethical.

 

[darknightzzz]

Nothing unethical? This is very unethical on both parts, the student and the dentist. However, the dentist or student might have validated their reasoning because of their interpretation of this whole application process. They might think it is a useless thing to do, which I think it is to get a LoR. However, everyone needs to do it and it would not be fair for everyone else so it would be unjust, thus unethical. I abide by Aristotle's virtue ethics and this act will not make you flourishing human being in terms of eudaimonia.
However, this is a very tempting opportunity and people do whatever they can to get ahead in this world, lie, cheat, so its up to you what kind of person you want to be.
But, yes very unethical.

okay, the letter of recommendation stuff is like the play ground. you play nice with them, you got good letters. Thus, someone can suck up well to the writers and the writers can write all the good stuff that overestimate this one's ability. This is also considered cheating and lying. However, it is ethical since the writer writes the letter.

another point twist: not all dentists or your work bosses are affluent writer and may think they will not write a good one. Therefore, they let you write and they edit. This editing is the most important part. You can't write whatever you want and as long as they sign it, they acknowledge what said above is representative of you. The unethical part is write and sign the letter yourself upon approval by the dentist or your work bosses. do you think in this busy world, these workaholic people have time to compose a one-page letter from scratch given that they dont write letter before?

just for your information, most academic professor have different types of LOR pre written, they just put some sentences to twist and turn depending on request.


my point is: yes it is unethical in some sense but still ethical.

you have 2 choices.

1. write the letters let writer sign it. you get one LOR out of the way.
2. play ethic and ask for another less adequate LOR. I have seen LOR with just two lines from profs who promise good letter.

in life, ethic is there to keep the standards however, in some cases like this, it should not be taken too literally. I mean, many MANY others have said it before in this forum and matriculate in dental school.

 

[Dentase]

okay, the letter of recommendation stuff is like the play ground. you play nice with them, you got good letters. Thus, someone can suck up well to the writers and the writers can write all the good stuff that overestimate this one's ability. This is also considered cheating and lying. However, it is ethical since the writer writes the letter.

another point twist: not all dentists or your work bosses are affluent writer and may think they will not write a good one. Therefore, they let you write and they edit. This editing is the most important part. You can't write whatever you want and as long as they sign it, they acknowledge what said above is representative of you. The unethical part is write and sign the letter yourself upon approval by the dentist or your work bosses. do you think in this busy world, these workaholic people have time to compose a one-page letter from scratch given that they dont write letter before?

just for your information, most academic professor have different types of LOR pre written, they just put some sentences to twist and turn depending on request.


my point is: yes it is unethical in some sense but still ethical.

you have 2 choices.

1. write the letters let writer sign it. you get one LOR out of the way.
2. play ethic and ask for another less adequate LOR. I have seen LOR with just two lines from profs who promise good letter.

in life, ethic is there to keep the standards however, in some cases like this, it should not be taken too literally. I mean, many MANY others have said it before in this forum and matriculate in dental school.

We can go back and fourth in an ethics debate. On the limited information the OP provided it is unethical. But the hypothetical information you provided, I agree can be ethical. But you should not lower your standards because a majority of the people dwell in their own vices without realizing its wrong.

 

[darknightzzz]

We can go back and fourth in an ethics debate. On the limited information the OP provided it is unethical. But the hypothetical information you provided, I agree can be ethical. But you should not lower your standards because a majority of the people dwell in their own vices without realizing its wrong.

yep i can see. but to the OP, as long as the writer looks at it and sign it, go ahead and write. Focus on examples and tell a story that emphasize attractive trait. examples may be how you work, the way you do it, your attitude.

 

[rev_rend]

We can go back and fourth in an ethics debate. On the limited information the OP provided it is unethical. But the hypothetical information you provided, I agree can be ethical. But you should not lower your standards because a majority of the people dwell in their own vices without realizing its wrong.

I'll bite.

I've drafted my own LoRs before. I've got eudaimonia in spades. Why? Because every single time I've done it, I did the following:

• I told the truth
• I didn't embellish the truth
• I trusted the person signing the letter would read and edit it as necessary

Like I said above, I've signed off on LoRs others have drafted for me to sign. I edit them. Similarly, I've submitted lots of expert affidavits for cases in which I have extensive experience. My qualifications section is a cut-and-paste job and the I always ask the person who's requested my help to draft their case specifics. Every single time I take what they wrote, edit it for clarity, and connect it to other cases.

People worry too much about it. If you're asked to write your own LoR and you feel confident that it will be read and edited prior to submission, you're ethically clean.

 

[darknightzzz]

I'll bite.

I've drafted my own LoRs before. I've got eudaimonia in spades. Why? Because every single time I've done it, I did the following:

• I told the truth
• I didn't embellish the truth
• I trusted the person signing the letter would read and edit it as necessary

Like I said above, I've signed off on LoRs others have drafted for me to sign. I edit them. Similarly, I've submitted lots of expert affidavits for cases in which I have extensive experience. My qualifications section is a cut-and-paste job and the I always ask the person who's requested my help to draft their case specifics. Every single time I take what they wrote, edit it for clarity, and connect it to other cases.

People worry too much about it. If you're asked to write your own LoR and you feel confident that it will be read and edited prior to submission, you're ethically clean.

this is exactly my point 100%.

people only worry about this when they havent read bad LOR.

I used to work in a graduate office and scan a lot of letter of recommendation. many students with professors LOR with 2 sentences "he got an A in my class. he is a bright, smart, and motivated student. THis class is XYZ".

i am shocked when i read this so yea

 

[Dentase]

I'll bite.

I've drafted my own LoRs before. I've got eudaimonia in spades. Why? Because every single time I've done it, I did the following:

• I told the truth
• I didn't embellish the truth
• I trusted the person signing the letter would read and edit it as necessary

Like I said above, I've signed off on LoRs others have drafted for me to sign. I edit them. Similarly, I've submitted lots of expert affidavits for cases in which I have extensive experience. My qualifications section is a cut-and-paste job and the I always ask the person who's requested my help to draft their case specifics. Every single time I take what they wrote, edit it for clarity, and connect it to other cases.

People worry too much about it. If you're asked to write your own LoR and you feel confident that it will be read and edited prior to submission, you're ethically clean.

Like I said before I agreed with dark knight. However, it is easier for the dentist to revise the LoR even if the writer is being honest or truthful. If you think about it a person who cannot write his own LoR, the dentist can only write whatever is relevant to him. Also if the dentist revises it before signing I agree it is more ethical than him not revising it, however it is not the same level of being ethical compared to writing your own LoR opposed to someone else who does not have the chance to do that( A Majority of the people). Since most people dont have the chance I believe it is not as virtous

 

[rev_rend]

Like I said before I agreed with dark knight. However, it is easier for the dentist to revise the LoR even if the writer is being honest or truthful. If you think about it a person who cannot write his own LoR, the dentist can only write whatever is relevant to him. Also if the dentist revises it before signing I agree it is more ethical than him not revising it, however it is not the same level of being ethical compared to writing your own LoR opposed to someone else who does not have the chance to do that( A Majority of the people). Since most people dont have the chance I believe it is not as virtous

An act isn't made ethical by what someone else does on top of it.

You're talking about fairness. And honestly, as someone who has read many cover letters from job applicants, this is a wash. For many people, it is a great mercy to not allow them to speak on their own behalf. I've had great employees who presented themselves poorly in cover letters and terrible employees who presented themselves well.

The world's got a lot of gray and moral ambiguity. This really isn't one of those areas of it in which people should spend a lot of worry.

 

[Dentase]

An act isn't made ethical by what someone else does on top of it.

You're talking about fairness. And honestly, as someone who has read many cover letters from job applicants, this is a wash. For many people, it is a great mercy to not allow them to speak on their own behalf. I've had great employees who presented themselves poorly in cover letters and terrible employees who presented themselves well.

The world's got a lot of gray and moral ambiguity. This really isn't one of those areas of it in which people should spend a lot of worry.

"An act isn't made ethical by what someone else does on top of it" According to your logic then it dosent make it ethical even if your bad at speaking on your own behalf. Just because some people are bad at writing for themselves does not make it anymore ethical.

 

[rev_rend]

"An act isn't made ethical by what someone else does on top of it" According to your logic then it dosent make it ethical even if your bad at speaking on your own behalf. Just because some people are bad at writing for themselves does not make it anymore ethical.

You're missing the point I was making. You were judging ethics based on what the submitter does with the letter. You said it's more ethical if the submitter revises the letter.

Excuse me if I'm wrong because I dismissed Aristotelian ethics to my "irrelevant to a fulfilled life" file close to two decades ago. (And subsequent experience dealing with ethical problems confirms the wisdom of having done so.) But the ethics has to do with what the person drafting the letter for the submitter does.

The ethics have to do with whether or not the draft is written honestly and with the expectation that it will be reviewed. I think it's more accurate to talk about fairness in discussing the opportunity to draft the letter. And that's where I'm saying its a wash. Plenty of people will do themselves few favors drafting their own recommendations. Plenty more will have few favors done for them by having someone else recommend them in their own words.

 

[Dentase]

You're missing the point I was making. You were judging ethics based on what the submitter does with the letter. You said it's more ethical if the submitter revises the letter.

Excuse me if I'm wrong because I dismissed Aristotelian ethics to my "irrelevant to a fulfilled life" file close to two decades ago. (And subsequent experience dealing with ethical problems confirms the wisdom of having done so.) But the ethics has to do with what the person drafting the letter for the submitter does.

The ethics have to do with whether or not the draft is written honestly and with the expectation that it will be reviewed. I think it's more accurate to talk about fairness in discussing the opportunity to draft the letter. And that's where I'm saying its a wash. Plenty of people will do themselves few favors drafting their own recommendations. Plenty more will have few favors done for them by having someone else recommend them in their own words.

" . I think it's more accurate to talk about fairness in discussing the opportunity to draft the letter"
THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT. It is not ethical because most people dont have the opportunity to even have such an option. However, I do believe it is more ethical if the dentist revises and edits opposed to the dentist just signing it willy nilly. Now I am just confused what you even saying so yea whatever you say man.

 

[darknightzzz]

" . I think it's more accurate to talk about fairness in discussing the opportunity to draft the letter"
THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT. It is not ethical because most people dont have the opportunity to even have such an option. However, I do believe it is more ethical if the dentist revises and edits opposed to the dentist just signing it willy nilly. Now I am just confused what you even saying so yea whatever you say man.

I think allll dentists will read before they sign. Do you think they make it that far to sign something without reading it fully?

 

[Eva_Unit01]

As far as the fairness of having this opportunity goes, I honestly wish I were NOT writing the letter myself. I'm pretty modest and have a hard time acknowledging my good traits, let alone boasting about them. I'm the type of person who thinks "Wow, really?" when people compliment me, not "yeah, obviously I'm that good". I can definitely see why some people may consider this unfair, but in my particular case I would probably disagree. A letter from myself will probably come across as a lot less positive than one someone else could write for me. Hmm, I guess I can at least use it as an opportunity to prepare for any future interviews I hope to receive, where I will be forced to talk myself up!

The referrer in question did say that they would be revising the letter, so that makes me feel more comfortable. I wouldn't want them just signing off on something they didn't even read; it would feel very, very wrong. Anyway, I am extremely honest. In fact, I'm almost honest to a fault. I wouldn't be including a bunch of fluff and lies.

I think the best option would probably be to come up with an outline of my good qualities and then see if I can get one of my close friends to draft something up based on those key points before sending it off to the referrer for a final review.

Thanks everyone for all of your thoughts. You've given me a lot to consider.

 

[Dentase]

I think allll dentists will read before they sign. Do you think they make it that far to sign something without reading it fully?

LoL thats what he is saying man. Hes not talking about signing he is talking about even getting an opportunity to do that. We arent even talking about that anymore man

 

[Dentase]

As far as the fairness of having this opportunity goes, I honestly wish I were NOT writing the letter myself. I'm pretty modest and have a hard time acknowledging my good traits, let alone boasting about them. I'm the type of person who thinks "Wow, really?" when people compliment me, not "yeah, obviously I'm that good". I can definitely see why some people may consider this unfair, but in my particular case I would probably disagree. A letter from myself will probably come across as a lot less positive than one someone else could write for me. Hmm, I guess I can at least use it as an opportunity to prepare for any future interviews I hope to receive, where I will be forced to talk myself up!

The referrer in question did say that they would be revising the letter, so that makes me feel more comfortable. I wouldn't want them just signing off on something they didn't even read; it would feel very, very wrong. Anyway, I am extremely honest. In fact, I'm almost honest to a fault. I wouldn't be including a bunch of fluff and lies.

I think the best option would probably be to come up with an outline of my good qualities and then see if I can get one of my close friends to draft something up based on those key points before sending it off to the referrer for a final review.

Thanks everyone for all of your thoughts. You've given me a lot to consider.

Hey congrats. However when you say "I can definitely see why some people may consider this unfair, but in my particular case I would probably disagree. A letter from myself will probably come across as a lot less positive than one someone else could write for me"
Just because your not good at writing your own LoR it does not make it anymore ethical. Just saying.

 

[rev_rend]

Hey congrats. However when you say "I can definitely see why some people may consider this unfair, but in my particular case I would probably disagree. A letter from myself will probably come across as a lot less positive than one someone else could write for me"
Just because your not good at writing your own LoR it does not make it anymore ethical. Just saying.

Again, fair is the word you want. And it's not even much of a fairness question.

You called this very unethical. You said it prevents someone from eudaimonia and suggests it stains the soul. That's some Kant level ridiculousness.

Look, this is extremely common. The only people who seem to really find it distasteful are those unaware of social and professional norms or those pretending they don't exist.

I really can only think of two of my old employees for whom I'd write recommendations from scratch on my own. I have had dozens more whom I'll happily recommend but from whom I'd need notes or a draft to do them justice.

 

[Dentase]

Again, fair is the word you want. And it's not even much of a fairness question.

You called this very unethical. You said it prevents someone from eudaimonia and suggests it stains the soul. That's some Kant level ridiculousness.

Look, this is extremely common. The only people who seem to really find it distasteful are those unaware of social and professional norms or those pretending they don't exist.

I really can only think of two of my old employees for whom I'd write recommendations from scratch on my own. I have had dozens more whom I'll happily recommend but from whom I'd need notes or a draft to do them justice.

You sir are relating to norms now. Just because many people do wrong things dosent make it anymore right. Also I never said anything about staining the soul buddy. A lot of people lie everyday, aghh I guess lying is not really a big thing since everyone does it( Sarcasm). All I am saying is you need to find a means between two extremes, your means arent what I would consider means between the two.
Look I cant live by those ideals, because I know everyone cheats dosent mean I will

 

[rev_rend]

You sir are relating to norms now. Just because many people do wrong things dosent make it anymore right. Also I never said anything about staining the soul buddy. A lot of people lie everyday, aghh I guess lying is not really a big thing since everyone does it( Sarcasm). All I am saying is you need to find a means between two extremes, your means arent what I would consider means between the two.
Look I cant live by those ideals, because I know everyone cheats dosent mean I will

I said "suggests."

"I abide by Aristotle's virtue ethics and this act will not make you flourishing human being in terms of eudaimonia." is great and all, but how does this connect? What does Aristotle actually say about the ethics of this situation and why should any of us care?

I don't think you appreciate Aristotelian ethics. He believed ethics were situational. You're treating this situation as if it should be judged against a universal standard. Look at Kant. He's probably more up your alley.

For future applicants who are worried about this, here's a quick guide.

Unethical: Writing a letter of recommendation under someone else's name and submitting it yourself.
Ethical: Drafting a letter of recommendation at the request of someone who wants to submit it on your behalf.

 

[Dentase]

I said "suggests."

"I abide by Aristotle's virtue ethics and this act will not make you flourishing human being in terms of eudaimonia." is great and all, but how does this connect? What does Aristotle actually say about the ethics of this situation and why should any of us care?

I don't think you appreciate Aristotelian ethics. He believed ethics were situational. You're treating this situation as if it should be judged against a universal standard. Look at Kant. He's probably more up your alley.

For future applicants who are worried about this, here's a quick guide.

Unethical: Writing a letter of recommendation under someone else's name and submitting it yourself.
Ethical: Drafting a letter of recommendation at the request of someone who wants to submit it on your behalf.

Allow me summarize what I said in all of my posts.
First of all I said it is unethical given the situation of having the opportunity to even write your own LoR. Sure I will consider that as unfair I agree
I said it is more ethical if the dentist will allow it and revises it.
I said it is unethical if he does not revise it or edit it.

So yea to my understanding that is situational, and that is virtue ethics.
GoodBye Mr. I am gonna do things according to norms even if they are wrong... Cough cough....What a philosopher... Bravo man

For future applicants:
Ethical: If the dentist revises it or edits
Unethical: If the dentist will not edit or revise it
So OP Go ahead, however I still believe it is unfair even if you are bad at writing it.

 

[DentalDoge]

I did a couple of my letters this way. And the reason why my professors do it this way is very logical.

I include everything I want to be said in the 1st draft, which normally would've been a resume, and convey how I wish to be portrayed as.

He rewrites it, taking out parts he didnt think belongs in there and add personal thoughts.

Boom, a letter.


Completely understandable as he has to write 20+ letters every year.

So yes, go ahead and write your own LOR.

 

[rev_rend]

Allow me summarize what I said in all of my posts.
First of all I said it is unethical given the situation of having the opportunity to even write your own LoR. Sure I will consider that as unfair I agree
I said it is more ethical if the dentist will allow it and revises it.
I said it is unethical if he does not revise it or edit it.

So yea to my understanding that is situational, and that is virtue ethics.
GoodBye Mr. I am gonna do things according to norms even if they are wrong... Cough cough....What a philosopher... Bravo man.

And I pointed out the ethics for OP or anyone else are based on their own intentions and understanding of the situation.

There's a point in almost college student's acquaintance with formal philosophy in which they decide to go all in for some label. But there's a point at which you realize do the best you can is the best you can do.

In this situation, the norm is the way it is in part because there's nothing at all wrong with the act. I have never met anyone willing to sign a letter without reading the draft.