Writing your own LOR?

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So when I asked my internal medicine to write me a letter of rec he told me to write my own and he would sign it. I though it was great at first but now I have no idea what to write. What are some key phrases, words, etc that would be good to include? Or what would you guys say about yourself?
 
So when I asked my internal medicine to write me a letter of rec he told me to write my own and he would sign it. I though it was great at first but now I have no idea what to write. What are some key phrases, words, etc that would be good to include? Or what would you guys say about yourself?




this is fraud....get another writer
 
Agreed. Tell that prof to pound sand. Get another LOR writer. Programs will be able to see through that like glass.
 
I don't think it's fraud as long as he signs it which means he agrees with what the paper says, regardless of who wrote it (ie secretary, med student). I also don't think it violates the waiver of confidentiality. If you give it to him and tell him to make adjustments as he desires, sign it, and mail it without showing it to you, all you did was give him a written suggestion as to how he should write your letter; since you don't see the final product I don't think you're violating the waiver of confidentiality.

I suggest you ask your deans what they recommend, and if they say it's fine to do it this way, you can ask them what key phrases and words they use in their MSPE or whatever that letter of good standing is called. I think at my school the words "good, great, excellent, outstanding, superb" are the secret codewords that are used to distinguish between levels of students. I also don't think it'll be easy to "see through" if you take some time and do it right.
 
So when I asked my internal medicine to write me a letter of rec he told me to write my own and he would sign it. I though it was great at first but now I have no idea what to write. What are some key phrases, words, etc that would be good to include? Or what would you guys say about yourself?

Perhaps the best thing to do would be write yourself that letter and have him sign it.

Then, when ERAS submission rolls around, don't submit it. Click and submit three other letters instead and quietly brush this one under the table.
 
When he gave me the instructions he told me to be honest about myself and about how I did on the rotation. Then he told me to send it to him. So I think what's going to happen is that if he agrees with what I wrote he will sign it and send it off. If he doesn't he will either tell me or correct it himself. Nowhere in the letter will it state that I waived my right to see the letter either. I just interpreted him telling me to do this as him being too busy to take the time to write one himself. I guess I wouldn't consider this fraud. Now if I made things up and made myself sound like someone I wasn't and then signed for him....I would consider that fraud.
When I posted the initial question I just wanted advice as to how to even begin writing a letter of rec....as I have never written one for myself or for someone else. And I've waived the right to see my other letters so I have no idea what a letter of rec even looks like.
Thanks anyway
 
When he gave me the instructions he told me to be honest about myself and about how I did on the rotation. Then he told me to send it to him. So I think what's going to happen is that if he agrees with what I wrote he will sign it and send it off. If he doesn't he will either tell me or correct it himself. Nowhere in the letter will it state that I waived my right to see the letter either. I just interpreted him telling me to do this as him being too busy to take the time to write one himself. I guess I wouldn't consider this fraud. Now if I made things up and made myself sound like someone I wasn't and then signed for him....I would consider that fraud.
When I posted the initial question I just wanted advice as to how to even begin writing a letter of rec....as I have never written one for myself or for someone else. And I've waived the right to see my other letters so I have no idea what a letter of rec even looks like.
Thanks anyway
The problem with this approach is it won't work. I good LOR is compelling. What makes a LOR compelling? the person writing it.

A good LOR starts off by introducing the writer. Who is writing this letter and why should anybody care what he/she thinks about any applicant? The next part of the letter explains how you know the applicant, and what your interaction and experiences with this applicant have been. Finally, a good LOR gives compelling evidence as to why the applicant should get the spot.

If a LOR is missing any of these elements, it is a weak letter. And it should be one page or less (prob less) because nobody wants to read a book.
 
Take advantage. Make it ridiculously good. Talk of other attendings consulting you, drawing all your own labs, tasting your patients urine for glucose etc. I wrote one, we’ll see how it works out eh...
 
this is fraud....get another writer

tell us your experience with writing LORs.

I've written COUNTLESS lors for med students, residents, fellows, & attendings......and this has been my approach since 1999.

Who knows you better than yourself?

And for those who are not "self aware"...and there are many like that out there, your self written LOR will show it to me.

I always edit the letters to reflect what I think is accurate before signing and mailing them.
 
tell us your experience with writing LORs.

I've written COUNTLESS lors for med students, residents, fellows, & attendings......and this has been my approach since 1999.

Who knows you better than yourself?

And for those who are not "self aware"...and there are many like that out there, your self written LOR will show it to me.

I always edit the letters to reflect what I think is accurate before signing and mailing them.


Do you edit them to reflect your writing style, or do you just make the details/interpretation accurate?
 
I had to do this as a medical student also. At first I was a little taken back, but it wasn't too bad in the end. I went on the internet and searched LOR and/or Self LOR. I got some pretty good ideas.

You know what you are good at ie: Student Doctor Blah is good with the staff and helpful; He/she is considerate to the patient. Stuff on that order. Making your self up to be a god will probably get you embarrassed when your doctor calls you on it or when you compile all of your LORs, this one might stick out like a sore thumb in a bad/awkard way.
 
A good LOR starts off by introducing the writer. Who is writing this letter and why should anybody care what he/she thinks about any applicant? The next part of the letter explains how you know the applicant, and what your interaction and experiences with this applicant have been. Finally, a good LOR gives compelling evidence as to why the applicant should get the spot.

If a LOR is missing any of these elements, it is a weak letter. And it should be one page or less (prob less) because nobody wants to read a book.

Do all (or at least most) letter-writers know this stuff? Is there a First Aid For Being An Attending Letter-Writer out there? Good god I hope they do know this.
 
i wrote one of my own lors...chief of surgery, great lady, just had no time. i wrote it, emailed it to her secretary, she looked it over and signed. she could have changed things but didn't because she eventually sent it to me for my files even though i had told her i waived the right to see it.
i basically began with how the doc knew me, how long she worked with me and the qualities that she observed during that time that would make me a great physician and anesthesiologist. I was sure to put in something about anesthesiology and close the letter with language like I highly recommend __________ to your residency program without hesitation or reserve.
at one of my aways i was speaking with an attending on their committee that told me when he looks at an lor he looks for the words: anesthesiology (indicating you are serious about anes as you have mentioned it to the attendings you are working with), the closing having words like highly recommend, and the persons name and title (which he said didn't mean much unless it was someone he knew of or was in anesthesiology and had heard of).
don't overtly lie in your lor but make yourself sound good...if there is anything this doc complemented you on during your rotation make sure to include that.
 
Speaking of writting, any tips on how to write good personal statement? I wrote mine, sent it to a guy at our school to kinda look at it, and he pretty much said that my letter sux. Said it is not personal enough and I wrote to much techical stuff (I had a job at OR for 5 years, so I explained what I did there). They guy is not a doctor, not sure how much medical background he has, so I don't know how much I should trust him. Any advice?
 
tell us your experience with writing LORs.

I've written COUNTLESS lors for med students, residents, fellows, & attendings......and this has been my approach since 1999.

Who knows you better than yourself?

And for those who are not "self aware"...and there are many like that out there, your self written LOR will show it to me.

I always edit the letters to reflect what I think is accurate before signing and mailing them.




First of all I have written dozens of LOR. I, like yourself, am also an employer. If I want to know what a candidate thought of himself and his abilities, then I would ask the candidate to send me a personal statement. If I want to know what a candidate's peers and preceptors thought of them, I would ask for a LOR. I do not feel that it is appropriate to have the applicant write the letter and have someone else sign it. Traditionally, letters of reference are supposed to reflect the writer's personal experience and observations about a candidate. Mil, How could you expect the applicant to accurately capture your personal opinions about his/her performance. Personally, if I do not feel that I know an applicant well enough or if I am busy and dont have time to write a letter, I will simply tell the applicant that he would be better finding another writer. This is really for their own good.


With reflection, I think that fraud is a strong word. What you guys are discussing is not fraud, but it is rather disingenuous.
 
tell us your experience with writing LORs.

I've written COUNTLESS lors for med students, residents, fellows, & attendings......and this has been my approach since 1999.

Who knows you better than yourself?

And for those who are not "self aware"...and there are many like that out there, your self written LOR will show it to me.

I always edit the letters to reflect what I think is accurate before signing and mailing them.






Then why dont you just ask for their CV and personal statement.
 
a little of both




If the institution or individual asks you to "sign the flap" of the letter and send directly to them, doesn't this imply to you that the institution does not want the individual to see the letter.
 
When I posted the initial question I just wanted advice as to how to even begin writing a letter of rec....as I have never written one for myself or for someone else. And I've waived the right to see my other letters so I have no idea what a letter of rec even looks like.
Thanks anyway[/QUOTE]



Yes, and my advice is that you should find another letter writer. You should not be placed in this situation.
 
Then why dont you just ask for their CV and personal statement.


I would already have those.....

Self assessment/self awareness of how others perceive is the one quality that I find most lacking in people.

I find that having one write a letter to pat yourself on the back is the best way to judge that particular quality in people.

Like I said, I edit it to reflect what i think of them...and for those that I have no interest in endorsing....I tell them no.
 
If the institution or individual asks you to "sign the flap" of the letter and send directly to them, doesn't this imply to you that the institution does not want the individual to see the letter.


I don't share my edits with the people who asks for the letters.
 
Speaking of writting, any tips on how to write good personal statement? I wrote mine, sent it to a guy at our school to kinda look at it, and he pretty much said that my letter sux. Said it is not personal enough and I wrote to much techical stuff (I had a job at OR for 5 years, so I explained what I did there). They guy is not a doctor, not sure how much medical background he has, so I don't know how much I should trust him. Any advice?

My personal statement had very little medical/technical info. Mostly a reflection on what my values and attiibutes are or what I precieve them to be. Moreover, lifes experinces that shaped them and how they fit into anesthesia. Sort of random but my intro paragraph was about golf!

I was told that your CV explains what you have done and the PS explains why you have done. Why did you do that mission trip to Africia, why have you ran 25 marathons, why are you a student leader, or what ever it is you do/done.....

Good luck, I remember agonizing over that stupid thing. And in hindsight in don't think it really means enough to lose any sleep over... Oh, I would include in the personsal statement a paragraph about why you are applying to the program, could be family, region, or what ever bs you can come up with. I had a few programs comment on it positivly and it lets them no you are serious about going there. It dosn't take to much extra time to give a quick blurb and attach into eras. I mean do they want to extend an interview offer to someone who may cancell it if they get enough other offers? I also don't think doing this is the norm, but my PD strongly encouraged it.
 
When I posted the initial question I just wanted advice as to how to even begin writing a letter of rec....as I have never written one for myself or for someone else. And I've waived the right to see my other letters so I have no idea what a letter of rec even looks like.
Thanks anyway



Yes, and my advice is that you should find another letter writer. You should not be placed in this situation.[/quote]

The situation where an attending trusts you to describe what positive things you bring to the table? If the attending thought you sucked they should say " find another writer" or " I am not comfortable recommending you to residency programs". I personaly wouldn't ask anyone for a LOR without being on excellent terms with the person. Doing otherwise would seem disingenious. So if I am on excellent terms with someone I hardly think it disingenious to write my own letter, have them reveiw it, agree to it, and then sign. If anything it seems more honest imho.

LORs are exactly that, letters of recomendation, not a sneaky way to bend some one over. I never understud how an attending or person writing a lor could write anything other than what they agreed to write, a recommendation.
 
Yes, and my advice is that you should find another letter writer. You should not be placed in this situation.


The situation where an attending trusts you to describe what positive things you bring to the table? If the attending thought you sucked they should say " find another writer" or " I am not comfortable recommending you to residency programs". I personaly wouldn't ask anyone for a LOR without being on excellent terms with the person. Doing otherwise would seem disingenious. So if I am on excellent terms with someone I hardly think it disingenious to write my own letter, have them reveiw it, agree to it, and then sign. If anything it seems more honest imho.

LORs are exactly that, letters of recomendation, not a sneaky way to bend some one over. I never understud how an attending or person writing a lor could write anything other than what they agreed to write, a recommendation.[/QUOTE]





How is it more honest if you are writing a letter that your attending/preceptor was supposed to write?

I dont know why I am so surprised at these suggestions. Ethics has been on the decline in this country for many years. Medicine and science are not exceptions.

I am sorry but what you are suggesting is not ethical. As someone who has written dozens of letters, I can tell you that good letter writing takes time. If you attending is suggesting that you write the letter and he signs it, he/she is not willing to take the time to write a good letter for you. It is his responsibility to tell you this so that you can find another writer.

You have to ask yourself, "where does it stop". If an attending asked you to fill in your own evaluation for one of your clerkships, would you do it? If a scientist asked you to sign your name to something that you didnt do, would you do it? If you are asked by the interviewer about the letter (ie did you write it) how would you respond?

During my career, I have received 30 or so letters of recommendation. None of these writers ever asked me to write my own letter. I have also never suggested this in any of the letters that I have written. To ask a prospective student to write their own letter puts a lot of pressure on them and really isnt fair.

OK off of my soapbox.
 
[/b]

The situation where an attending trusts you to describe what positive things you bring to the table? If the attending thought you sucked they should say " find another writer" or " I am not comfortable recommending you to residency programs". I personaly wouldn't ask anyone for a LOR without being on excellent terms with the person. Doing otherwise would seem disingenious. So if I am on excellent terms with someone I hardly think it disingenious to write my own letter, have them reveiw it, agree to it, and then sign. If anything it seems more honest imho.

LORs are exactly that, letters of recomendation, not a sneaky way to bend some one over. I never understud how an attending or person writing a lor could write anything other than what they agreed to write, a recommendation.





How is it more honest if you are writing a letter that your attending/preceptor was supposed to write?

I dont know why I am so surprised at these suggestions. Ethics has been on the decline in this country for many years. Medicine and science are not exceptions.

I am sorry but what you are suggesting is not ethical. As someone who has written dozens of letters, I can tell you that good letter writing takes time. If you attending is suggesting that you write the letter and he signs it, he/she is not willing to take the time to write a good letter for you. It is his responsibility to tell you this so that you can find another writer.

You have to ask yourself, "where does it stop". If an attending asked you to fill in your own evaluation for one of your clerkships, would you do it? If a scientist asked you to sign your name to something that you didnt do, would you do it? If you are asked by the interviewer about the letter (ie did you write it) how would you respond?

During my career, I have received 30 or so letters of recommendation. None of these writers ever asked me to write my own letter. I have also never suggested this in any of the letters that I have written. To ask a prospective student to write their own letter puts a lot of pressure on them and really isnt fair.

OK off of my soapbox.[/quote]

The process of going over the lor, regardless of who wrote it, is what makes a letter more accurate/honest. This whole waving the right to veiw the LOR is asinine. What puprose dose it serve? This is a letter of recomendation not an anonymous evaluation. And the only place for anonymous evaluations is when the evaluee holds much power over the evaluator. In the LOR case, the medical student has absolutly no power over an attending thus the attendings comments should be privy to the student. But that is another issue. And for the record I played the game and have not seen any of my lor. But I still think it is dumb the system operates this way.

I agree that writing a letter demands much time and effort. I have written a few in my previous life, not dozens, but enough to realize the effort. I also go over the letter with the person to make sure it rings true to them. I guess I just don't feel the same level of reproach you do if they wrote it and then we reviewed it. But maybe your of the school the letter should be some secret thing, which would be are fundemental ethical difference.

As far as your slippery slope argument...Happens much more than in LOR or evals on a rotation. Papers are pumped out every year with principal investigators who are anything but. And how do they repond when asked who did the research?
 
about the p.s. -- you do need to make it personal and don't run on about your OR duties but do give examples about what makes your background unique and how it will make you a better anesthesiology resident/anesthesiologist. most personal statements fall in the good category...hard to write a great one but also hard to totally suck. i doubt anyone ever was rejected or invited for an interview based on their p.s. so don't sweat it too much. let it come from the heart on who you are and what brought you to anesthesiology...
 
Most of people I know dictate the letters. It is not more difficult than dictating a clinical note if they have done this before. I do not quite get this why they have to ask the students to write their own LORs. If you think they are superstars, say so.

However, I could see the benefits of asking a template when you write something for your colleagues or someone you do not know well.

LORs are overrated anyway. The only time PDs look at them seriously is when the letters are bad.
 
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