X

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jimsmith886 said:
I am 42 years old and 20 years removed from the worst decision I have ever made. That decision, which has ruined my life, was the decision to go to medical school. I am here to inform you of the reality of what you are signing up for.

I went to a top 20 university for undergraduate studies where I was a mostly A student, GPA 3.7 in the honors program. I had the world at my fingertips and could have entered any field as school and tests always came easy for me. Scored a 32 on my MCAT. Medicine seemed like the logical choice filled with smart people like me.

As a Junior in college I was offered admission to my state university medical school and graduated from med school in the top 25% of my class. I worked hard, did research, played the game. Subsequently did my internship in internal medicine at a Harvard hospital, then residency and fellowship at one of the top radiology programs in the country. Training was difficult and consumed all aspects of my life, but I carried on, even though I had no life outside of school. I had a gleaming resume, published 10+ articles, won multiple awards at major medical meetings, and was knowledgeable in my field. While my friends and colleagues spent their 20s having fun in big cities, I was working nights and weekends toward (what I thought) was a better life.

I started my first job on a partnership track in a small US city, and that’s when reality set in. I was miserable. My first employer was abusive and I got stuck working all the worst shifts, nights and weekends, in horrible backwoods locations with long (over 1 hour) commutes. I was single and all my relationships had failed because I was never around, always working. After 3 years of working hard, at age 34, I figured “once I become a partner my life will get better when I make more money and have more vacation”. Well.....one week before I was to be awarded partnership, I received a phone call from a senior partner. I would not be awarded partnership in the group. There was no explanation given.

I have since moved around to 4 other jobs and had mostly the same experience. Difficult work conditions at the hands of more senior attendings who abuse younger MDs to do all the work. Lots of nights and weekends on the job. I have been miserable the entire time, just sucking it up because I have no choice. I show up to work on factory line and plow through hundreds of studies per day with the expectation of making no mistakes, and very little gratitude for the work that I do from patients or other physicians. I am still single with no assets and live in a small 1 bedroom apartment. Meanwhile my friends who were average students, some of whom never went to graduate school, live picture perfect lives with same or far higher income, nice families and kids of their own.

There is a silent epidemic of depression amongst physicians and I’ve learned that I’m not alone. The Boston Globe reported on this earlier this year (see below). The rate of suicide for physicians is the highest it’s ever been. See link below. I have to be honest, I have been on and off suicidal for the last year and think about killing myself every day. It is a very sad and hopeless existence. Everyone says it gets better but as I go father along, it is the same or worse.

www.bostonglobe.com

In America, becoming a doctor can prove fatal - The Boston Globe

Bullied and abused, medical residents are taking their own lives at an astounding rate.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com

The reason I post here is to hopefully convince at least one person to not go to medical school. If you are smart enough to go to med school, there are endless other options in other fields that will leave you far greater personal and professional satisfaction. The economy is excellent and everyone coming from good undergrad schools is getting great job offers. Listen to my story. Don’t go to medical school, just don’t do it! Explore every other option available.

Respectfully,
Jim
Click to expand...

Maybe this is a true story, one can never know. But if it is, Im sure it’s not the only one out there. Sure it’s prob rare to have such an unfortunate series of circumstances but if it did all happen to you, I’m very sorry to hear it. I hope you can muster the strength to find a way of out of the depression you’re feeling now.
I’m going into medicine because I believe stories like this are rather the minority than the norm but even still it sheds a light on the reality of the profession and esp for primary care, Ive heard the financial debt they have to deal with can be extraordinary ..
A lot of ppl on this forum can be cynical but I choose to believe that what he is saying is and could totally be a real life scenario
 
The truth is that you can read exactly the same about any other career. You can find tons of unhappy lawyers, plumbers, software developers, literally any career. The point is that you need to be on the right place, if you are unhappy about what you are doing when many other people adore this job, then, probably, the problem is you.
 
innit?
272308
 
Jimsmith886 said:
Of course. There are unhappy people in every profession. However I have been in this business for a long time and interfaced with a lot of other physicians. Many (not all) are miserable. The numbers speak for themselves. Why is the suicide rate so high, higher than other fields? I am not alone.

www.webmd.com

Mental Health

Mental health disorders affect an estimated 22% of American adults each year. Here you'll find in-depth mental health information including care, and various mental health conditions.
www.webmd.com www.webmd.com
Click to expand...
This is just an article without any references.
 
Based on your post it doesn't seem like you entered medicine for the right reasons, being a good taker and it being a logical thing to do for a smart person. I know plenty of physicians who love their jobs, even if they work long hours, because they couldn't imagine doing anything else and love the difference they make in people's lives. There are very specialized counseling options for physicians and other professionals dealing with your exact issue, I really hope you consider that. Best of luck, Jim
 
Sounds to me like many of you are in denial, don’t want to give into the fact you are entering a field with significant issues. Do a pubmed search about physician burnout and depression. The results may surprise you. You can say I am the problem and entered the field for the wrong reasons but the data speaks for itself. Doctors are worn out and unhappy. I am not an isolated story.
 
Jimsmith886 said:
Sounds to me like many of you are in denial, don’t want to give into the fact you are entering a field with significant issues. Do a pubmed search about physician burnout and depression. The results may surprise you. You can say I am the problem and entered the field for the wrong reasons but the data speaks for itself. Doctors are worn out and unhappy. I am not an isolated story.
Click to expand...
Tell us who is happy, never experiences difficulties, and never feels burned out? Nobody denies that physician is a hard profession, in some aspects hardest than any other. But saying that this is the most depressed and unhappy profession is inaccurate (at least without providing references). I can read articles about depressed lawyers, about depressed constriction workers (who, in fact, have the highest suicide rate), about depressed financial managers, so what? Not everyone is Jeff Bezos, but if you are on the right place, then you will cope.
I am sorry for your hard life experience, probably, you should see a specialist. But making posts to discourage other people from going into medicine because your boss refused to promote you is extremely unprofessional. You could instead just discuss cons of the profession and explain why it might not be good for everyone or not as good as we think, but simply telling not to do this is pretty pointless.
 
Last edited:
As someone pretty far in the game, but not as far OP, would tend to agree.

Do not know many attendings even that are actually happy on a day to day basis. Most just bitch incessantly


My question is why do you have no assets? You are single per your post. At your age student loans should be long paid off even if you were not making partner salary. I think you may also have some money management issues
 
Dr. Jim,

I am sorry for your troubles.

One small suggestion from a misguided premed. Stop interfacing. I find that when I do, I feel a whole lot better.

Humbly yours,

LE
 
The good news is you are still a young, presumably healthy, individual with a great mind, desired skill set, and extremely minimal personal obligations. Can you not take your life in a new direction starting today? Especially if you are suicidal, what difference does it make?
 
jhamaican said:
As someone pretty far in the game, but not as far OP, would tend to agree.

Do not know many attendings even that are actually happy on a day to day basis. Most just bitch incessantly


My question is why do you have no assets? You are single per your post. At your age student loans should be long paid off even if you were not making partner salary. I think you may also have some money management issues
Click to expand...

Quoting you but responding in general.

Since this thread is essentially anecdotes and appeals to authority, I’ve been working in healthcare for 15 years and have worked closely with a lot of attendings in multiple states. Most were happy. A handful were miserable.

A lot of people in a lot of fields are miserable, and it seems like the biggest common links are being in the wrong field for them and entering for the wrong reasons.
 
Jimsmith886 said:
Sounds to me like many of you are in denial, don’t want to give into the fact you are entering a field with significant issues. Do a pubmed search about physician burnout and depression. The results may surprise you. You can say I am the problem and entered the field for the wrong reasons but the data speaks for itself. Doctors are worn out and unhappy. I am not an isolated story.
Click to expand...
Nobody is in denial and most people I know are aware that doctors, especially medical residents, face high rates of burnout. We do it anyway because we can’t imagine doing anything else.

Having spent the last year at a consulting company doing mind numbingly boring work, I’ll take 60 hours a week of solving actual issues and saving lives any day over my current job.

I’m sorry to hear you’re not doing well.
 
I'm truly sorry you've had such a bad experience in medicine. However, many of these variables seem completely within your control.

You were a great student, could have done anything and chose to go to medical school. Which, I'm assuming you would agree this was an uninformed choice or that you had the wrong motivations.

You worked like a dog in med school, alienating yourself from friends and choosing not to pursue other areas of your life such as relationships. Instead, you chose to work as hard as you did. I think you would agree many medical students or residents still enjoy their lives. Again, this is anecdotal, but I know more that do than don't.

You got a job you didn't like, with a horrible employer and stayed there despite being one of the most employable people in the country (Harvard internal med, top radiology program). You commuted an hour but never moved. I'll stop here, but you get the point.

I'm not saying this in any way whatsoever to bash you. I'm saying I think the goal of this thread should be "Know what you're getting yourself into" not "Don't go to medical school". These issues don't seem to be facing medicine as a whole but are instead the result of decisions you made.


I hope you either find a job you enjoy or maybe someone can point you in the direction of another career you can use your education for and that makes you happy. Also, I promise you your friends aren't living "Perfect lives". The grass is always greener.

Best of luck OP.
 
Jimsmith886 said:
I am 42 years old and 20 years removed from the worst decision I have ever made. That decision, which has ruined my life, was the decision to go to medical school. I am here to inform you of the reality of what you are signing up for.

I went to a top 20 university for undergraduate studies where I was a mostly A student, GPA 3.7 in the honors program. I had the world at my fingertips and could have entered any field as school and tests always came easy for me. Scored a 32 on my MCAT. Medicine seemed like the logical choice filled with smart people like me.

As a Junior in college I was offered admission to my state university medical school and graduated from med school in the top 25% of my class. I worked hard, did research, played the game. Subsequently did my internship in internal medicine at a Harvard hospital, then residency and fellowship at one of the top radiology programs in the country. Training was difficult and consumed all aspects of my life, but I carried on, even though I had no life outside of school. I had a gleaming resume, published 10+ articles, won multiple awards at major medical meetings, and was knowledgeable in my field. While my friends and colleagues spent their 20s having fun in big cities, I was working nights and weekends toward (what I thought) was a better life.

I started my first job on a partnership track in a small US city, and that’s when reality set in. I was miserable. My first employer was abusive and I got stuck working all the worst shifts, nights and weekends, in horrible backwoods locations with long (over 1 hour) commutes. I was single and all my relationships had failed because I was never around, always working. After 3 years of working hard, at age 34, I figured “once I become a partner my life will get better when I make more money and have more vacation”. Well.....one week before I was to be awarded partnership, I received a phone call from a senior partner. I would not be awarded partnership in the group. There was no explanation given.

I have since moved around to 4 other jobs and had mostly the same experience. Difficult work conditions at the hands of more senior attendings who abuse younger MDs to do all the work. Lots of nights and weekends on the job. I have been miserable the entire time, just sucking it up because I have no choice. I show up to work on factory line and plow through hundreds of studies per day with the expectation of making no mistakes, and very little gratitude for the work that I do from patients or other physicians. I am still single with no assets and live in a small 1 bedroom apartment. Meanwhile my friends who were average students, some of whom never went to graduate school, live picture perfect lives with same or far higher income, nice families and kids of their own.

There is a silent epidemic of depression amongst physicians and I’ve learned that I’m not alone. The Boston Globe reported on this earlier this year (see below). The rate of suicide for physicians is the highest it’s ever been. See link below. I have to be honest, I have been on and off suicidal for the last year and think about killing myself every day. It is a very sad and hopeless existence. Everyone says it gets better but as I go father along, it is the same or worse.

www.bostonglobe.com

In America, becoming a doctor can prove fatal - The Boston Globe

Bullied and abused, medical residents are taking their own lives at an astounding rate.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com

The reason I post here is to hopefully convince at least one person to not go to medical school. If you are smart enough to go to med school, there are endless other options in other fields that will leave you far greater personal and professional satisfaction. The economy is excellent and everyone coming from good undergrad schools is getting great job offers. Listen to my story. Don’t go to medical school, just don’t do it! Explore every other option available.

Respectfully,
Jim
Click to expand...


Another perspective from an attending radiologist:

First off, I have to say I feel sorry for the OP. Having a partnership taken away like that is disgusting to say the least.

I am 41 yr old attending who just made partner at a busy practice in a mid size town (population 300-400,000 in the south east). There are definitely predatory groups out there. There are also a lot if good groups out there like my own. I know co-residents and co-fellows who found great jobs after they graduated while others have had to switch jobs. The market is good right now are you are still relatively young (you could probably work at least another 20-25 yrs). Have you explored the job market recently? If you do not have geographic restrictions, there is plenty of opportunity out there.

To the future doctors, do not be discouraged. Press on. I think it's still worth it and, while I wouldn't go through training again, I have no regrets about my chosen filed.
 
I believe true happiness is attained from within. OP, if you are not happy, don’t look at what you don’t have but rather what you do. You are in control of your own happiness no matter if you’re a CEO or homeless. Do something for yourself don’t fall in the pit and trick yourself into believing everyone is destined follow your path. I know why I want to be a doctor and I know I am in control of my happiness in life.

Imposter syndrome is very prevalent in the career.
 
OP provides a valid perspective. Physician burnout is a real problem. Physician dissatisfaction is on the rise as corporate medicine further deprives docs of autonomy and decision-making authority. Reimbursements continue to decline.

On the other hand, our profession remains unique in our ability to directly impact the lives of others for the better.
 
bonedoc5576 said:
OP provides a valid perspective. Physician burnout is a real problem. Physician dissatisfaction is on the rise as corporate medicine further deprives docs of autonomy and decision-making authority. Reimbursements continue to decline.

On the other hand, our profession remains unique in our ability to directly impact the lives of others for the better.
Click to expand...

Any profession is a role of the dice as are most choices in life. It has a lot to do with your own decision and luck along the way. I rolled the dice choosing medical school and radiology. I rolled the dice deciding to settle my family in a new place and buying a foreclosure instead of renting when I got my first job. I rolled the dice and got married (working out great). No matter what profession you enter these days, most are primed for some kind of disruption whether it be from technology or government or whatever. The only ones who are safe are those with generational money which most doctors will never have. Medicine is still a safe bet if you can minimize med school debt and you don't have to live in a big city. There are still opportunities to be had.
 
spb1703 said:
The truth is that you can read exactly the same about any other career. You can find tons of unhappy lawyers, plumbers, software developers, literally any career. The point is that you need to be on the right place, if you are unhappy about what you are doing when many other people adore this job, then, probably, the problem is you.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Maybe medicine just isn’t for you. Every single job is going to find people in depression.
 
OP

How did you end up with no assets given the salaries you must have been drawing over the years?

Do you have financial advice for aspiring doctors?
 
To echo what many others have said:
- Physician burnout is very real.
- There are many doctors who are miserable and regret going into medicine
- However, most MD mentors and doctors I've met are very happy with their choices and would not see it any other way (note: this view may be biased by my being in academic medicine)
- Whether someone is happy with their choice in becoming a doctor is likely dependent on their own expectations and personal characteristics.

- If you are pursuing medicine for the prestige or recognition: be prepared to be disappointed when you realize that these things ultimately do not matter. I have definitely been very guilty of chasing prestige in the past.
- If you are pursuing medicine to become wealthy: be prepared to be disappointed as while most doctors live comfortable lifestyles, your lifetime earning power is likely higher if you pursued other fields with the smarts and work ethic needed to become a doctor. Reimbursements are being clamped down on (particularly in interventional subspecialties), so I suspect this problem will become more prominent in the future (especially for those in private practice). Most of my friends from undergrad have been making 6 figures without the debt from medical school or the lengthy training process.
- If you are pursuing medicine expecting to cruise after finishing your training, it gets harder as an attending. Be prepared to keep working hard. Don't come in expecting to make partnership or some administrative role.

- Regardless of the struggles, being a physician will remain highly rewarding for the right people. We are given the opportunity to do things that very few other professions can match.
- If you go into medicine with a realistic expectation and understanding of the field, and are okay with making the needed sacrifices, then continue pursuing medicine. Otherwise, reread the OP's post again very carefully as medicine is definitely not the right fit for everyone. Just because you can pursue medicine does not mean you should. So do think hard about what you're committing yourself to.

- To provide a different perspective than the OP's: I make <$200k in academic medicine, am making good progress in paying down my student debt, am living modestly but very comfortably (definitely not paycheck-to-paycheck), travel frequently, and am able to maintain a very healthy relationship. My salary, while low for doctors, still remains in the top 5-10% of income in the US. Some of my classmates with more business saavy (nb: I possess none) are making much more by supplementing their income through consulting and other ventures. Like with everything in life, it's all about perspective and expectations. Just my thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Jimsmith886 said:
I am 42 years old and 20 years removed from the worst decision I have ever made. That decision, which has ruined my life, was the decision to go to medical school. I am here to inform you of the reality of what you are signing up for.

I went to a top 20 university for undergraduate studies where I was a mostly A student, GPA 3.7 in the honors program. I had the world at my fingertips and could have entered any field as school and tests always came easy for me. Scored a 32 on my MCAT. Medicine seemed like the logical choice filled with smart people like me.

As a Junior in college I was offered admission to my state university medical school and graduated from med school in the top 25% of my class. I worked hard, did research, played the game. Subsequently did my internship in internal medicine, then residency and fellowship at one of the top radiology programs in the country. Training was difficult and consumed all aspects of my life, but I carried on, even though I had no life outside of school. I had a gleaming resume, published 10+ articles, won multiple awards at major medical meetings, and was knowledgeable in my field. While my friends and colleagues spent their 20s having fun in big cities, I was working nights and weekends toward (what I thought) was a better life.

I started my first job on a partnership track in a small US city, and that’s when reality set in. I was miserable. My first employer was abusive and I got stuck working all the worst shifts, nights and weekends, in horrible backwoods locations with long (over 1 hour) commutes. I was single and all my relationships had failed because I was never around, always working. After 3 years of working hard, at age 34, I figured “once I become a partner my life will get better when I make more money and have more vacation”. Well.....one week before I was to be awarded partnership, I received a phone call from a senior partner. I would not be awarded partnership in the group. There was no explanation given.

I have since moved around to 4 other jobs and had mostly the same experience. Difficult work conditions at the hands of more senior attendings who abuse younger MDs to do all the work. Lots of nights and weekends on the job. I have been miserable the entire time, just sucking it up because I have no choice. I show up to work on factory line and plow through hundreds of studies per day with the expectation of making no mistakes, and very little gratitude for the work that I do from patients or other physicians. I am still single with no assets and live in a small 1 bedroom apartment. Meanwhile my friends who were average students, some of whom never went to graduate school, live picture perfect lives with same or far higher income, nice families and kids of their own.

There is a silent epidemic of depression amongst physicians and I’ve learned that I’m not alone. The Boston Globe reported on this earlier this year (see below). The rate of suicide for physicians is the highest it’s ever been. See link below. I have to be honest, I have been on and off suicidal for the last year and think about killing myself every day. It is a very sad and hopeless existence. Everyone says it gets better but as I go father along, it is the same or worse.

www.bostonglobe.com

In America, becoming a doctor can prove fatal - The Boston Globe

Bullied and abused, medical residents are taking their own lives at an astounding rate.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com

The reason I post here is to hopefully convince at least one person to not go to medical school. If you are smart enough to go to med school, there are endless other options in other fields that will leave you far greater personal and professional satisfaction. The economy is excellent and everyone coming from good undergrad schools is getting great job offers. Listen to my story. Don’t go to medical school, just don’t do it! Explore every other option available.

Respectfully,
Jim
Click to expand...
Very sorry to hear of your woes, Jim. I'll just add to the anecdotes that despite drawing lesser salaries because they're in academic medicine, my clinician colleagues are uniformly happy with their lives.

Suggest doing something radical and trying academia. Somebody has to teach radiology; students are wonderful, even if they complain a lot (but that's their job). Or a very different medical venue?

I fully agree that burnout is real...we see it at the student level nowadays. we're working on it...moving to P/F grading systems, less lectures, and competency-based curricula.
 
Goro said:
Very sorry to hear of your woes, Jim. I'll just add to the anecdotes that despite drawing lesser salaries because they're in academic medicine, my clinician colleagues are uniformly happy with their lives.

Suggest doing something radical and trying academia. Somebody has to teach radiology; students are wonderful, even if they complain a lot (but that's their job). Or a very different medical venue?

I fully agree that burnout is real...we see it at the student level nowadays. we're working on it...moving to P/F grading systems, less lectures, and competency-based curricula.
Click to expand...

I'm simultaneously glad to hear that you're taking steps to try to address student burnout and demoralized to hear that it has managed to fall all the way down to the student level. I had heard about students burning out, but I predominantly thought it was a post-graduate phenomenon (in residency and in your later career) rather than during the preclinical curriculum.

Do you know what might have changed in the landscape of medicine from decades ago to now that has led to this kind of environment?
 
Seihai said:
I'm simultaneously glad to hear that you're taking steps to try to address student burnout and demoralized to hear that it has managed to fall all the way down to the student level. I had heard about students burning out, but I predominantly thought it was a post-graduate phenomenon (in residency and in your later career) rather than during the preclinical curriculum.

Do you know what might have changed in the landscape of medicine from decades ago to now that has led to this kind of environment?
Click to expand...
1) For doctors, the switch from private practice to HMOs seems to have been the main culprit.
1a) Dealing more with insurance companies instead of patients hasn't helped. Just like in research, the ground has shifted under people's feet.
2) Also add in the increases in med school (and college) tution that have driven people from Primary Care to Specialties
3) At the med school level, we have Step I mania, which has probably been driven in part by #2. Look at how SDNers in the Medical Student fora always talk about "good residencies"...which means "the tippy top Ivy League residencies".
4) Never underestimate the damage that Tiger Parents (who come in all colors) can do to their kids. We have a generation of students who have been forced down a career pathway, and on top of that, see their self-worth manifested by exam scores and grades.
 
Seihai said:
Do you know what might have changed in the landscape of medicine from decades ago to now that has led to this kind of environment?
Click to expand...
Very much multifactorial, some of which self-inflicted by the schools:
- Selection criteria that increasingly valued grades, numbers, and academic performance rather than personal characteristics.
- Increasing financial, administrative, and bureaucratic pressures for those practicing

Edit: basically what @Goro said :laugh:
 
Jimsmith886 said:
Note my salary has been around the 300k range for the last 10 years
Click to expand...
Jimsmith886 said:
But I am currently living paycheck to paycheck.
Click to expand...
Jimsmith886 said:
As I am more or less broke, I’m in no position to be giving advice about how to handle money.
Click to expand...
Curious: How do you have no debt, make $300K, yet still consider yourself broke and living paycheck to paycheck? Even when I had just purchased a house, had a child on the way, starting out with student debt yadda yadda and only making $70K, we were never behind on payments, lived comfortably, went on vacations....

It is just not clicking...how?
 
MemeLord said:
Curious: How do you have no debt, make $300K, yet still consider yourself broke and living paycheck to paycheck? Even when I had just purchased a house, had a child on the way, starting out with student debt yadda yadda and only making $70K, we were never behind on payments, lived comfortably, went on vacations....

It is just not clicking...how?
Click to expand...

Living beyond one's means is a phenomenon in every level of society. I'm not saying that's what happened to OP, but it's not unheard of for people making significant amounts of money to wind up living paycheck to paycheck.
 
MemeLord said:
Curious: How do you have no debt, make $300K, yet still consider yourself broke and living paycheck to paycheck? Even when I had just purchased a house, had a child on the way, starting out with student debt yadda yadda and only making $70K, we were never behind on payments, lived comfortably, went on vacations....

It is just not clicking...how?
Click to expand...
I had read about a neurosurgeon who was making high 6 figures (>$500k) who was still living paycheck to paycheck due to a lavish lifestyle and poor financial decisions. Those who are wealthy will tell you that the key is not so much increasing income, but rather decreasing and controlling expenses.
 
spb1703 said:
innit?
View attachment 272308
Click to expand...

Something doesn't add up.

According to this source, there are about 300-400 physician suicides every year:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are about 713,800 physician jobs (which we can assume to mean the number of physicians since unemployment of physicians is nearly negligible):
Physicians and Surgeons : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

300/7.138 = 42 physician suicides per 100,000 physicians. So it should rank #2 on the CDC list.

My guess is that the CDC probably clumped together all the healthcare jobs (similar to what they did with architecture and engineering). So that would include nurses, PA's, techs, and the entire admin.
 
Isn't it totally possible to pay of student loans going into primary care? If you go to your state undergrad/ have a scholorship, even with private med school on top of that, PCP's make 200k+ a year, don't they?Why do people act like PCP's are poor?
 
TRexLife4 said:
Something doesn't add up.

According to this source, there are about 300-400 physician suicides every year:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are about 713,800 physician jobs (which we can assume to mean the number of physicians since unemployment of physicians is nearly negligible):
Physicians and Surgeons : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

300/7.138 = 42 physician suicides per 100,000 physicians. So it should rank #2 on the CDC list.
Click to expand...
Those 713K jobs could be unfilled positions and then the actually employed docs are more than that? not to sound stupid just speculating bc I don't think the CDC would have made a mistake that egregious.
 
mwsapphire said:
Those 713K jobs could be unfilled positions and then the actually employed docs are more than that? not to sound stupid just speculating bc I don't think the CDC would have made a mistake that egregious.
Click to expand...

I edited my last post to explain why this may have happened. My guess is that all healthcare jobs are being lumped together by the CDC. Which includes nurses, PA's, techs, and the entire admin.
 
TRexLife4 said:
Something doesn't add up.

According to this source, there are about 300-400 physician suicides every year:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are about 713,800 physician jobs (which we can assume to mean the number of physicians since unemployment of physicians is nearly negligible):
Physicians and Surgeons : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

300/7.138 = 42 physician suicides per 100,000 physicians. So it should rank #2 on the CDC list.

My guess is that the CDC probably clumped together all the healthcare jobs (similar to what they did with architecture and engineering). So that would include nurses, PA's, techs, and the entire admin.
Click to expand...

Here's the CDC reports that break it down a bit more:

www.cdc.gov

Suicide Rates by Major Occupational Group --- 17 States, 2012 and 2015

From 2000 to 2016, the U.S. suicide rate among working aged (16–64 years) adults increased 34% from 12.9 per 100,000 population to 17.3.
www.cdc.gov www.cdc.gov

They may have lumped together all healthcare practitioners (all midlevels and technical roles) when creating this report.
 
Moko said:
I had read about a neurosurgeon who was making high 6 figures (>$500k) who was still living paycheck to paycheck due to a lavish lifestyle and poor financial decisions. Those who are wealthy will tell you that the key is not so much increasing income, but rather decreasing and controlling expenses.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the fact that probably 60% of that income gets eaten up in federal tax, state tax, property tax, student loans repayments, FICA tax, and malpractice insurance.
 
MemeLord said:
Curious: How do you have no debt, make $300K, yet still consider yourself broke and living paycheck to paycheck? Even when I had just purchased a house, had a child on the way, starting out with student debt yadda yadda and only making $70K, we were never behind on payments, lived comfortably, went on vacations....

It is just not clicking...how?
Click to expand...

Uhh very easy- you get sucked into the doctor lifestyle.

Even if I make 1 mil dollars- you can easily be "broke." Alot of youtubers who were biggggg were living in 15,000 a month houses with lambos parked out front...and then when their subs went under and they got less relevant- couldn't keep up with the payments and ended up broke.

You might be saying "live below your means!" but it's very hard to "live below your means." Many doctors aren't going to buy a 100k house in the ghetto to live below their means. The smart ones will buy a starter home- but the ones that have no self control will buy the 1 mil house.

Unfortunately- because you are delayed so long in graduating 10+ years- you have this feeling to go WILD once you graduate because you FINALLY have money! and you are a DOCTOR you DESERVE it! Go on expensive vacations, buy expensive german cars. But that's where alot of new grads get into trouble.

Making 300k with 10 years down the drain and a boatload of 7% interest debt- and starting to make money in mid 30's- actually isn't alot of money. You would of been off as a comp sci major making 100-150 k at 22 years of age with zero debt with a 10+ year head start- and by your 30's have invested for the past decade 401k/stock options and making 150-200k. You are light years ahead of any healthcare professional. Plus you would of "traveled" "lived out your 20's-30's" compared to your healthcare professional stuck in the library competing and doing 80 hour rotation weeks.

Medicine is a hard job. Lots of sacrifice and I feel for the Original Poster. Medicine is not easy at all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MemeLord said:
I am genuinely trying to have sympathy for this, but it sounds more like a personal problem. May just be my upbringing....I can understand how one is physically capable of doing this, it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Click to expand...

I see you are an MD applicant. That's fine.

Go through 4 years of school, 4 years of 80+ hour residencies, 2 years of fellowship...and you will have the delayed gratification envy start to build. See all your social media friends who did comp sci/pa/nursing travel the world and experience "life"...and you will be spending money.

See your colleagues that are a bit ahead of you driving the nice cars and whatnot- and you be tempted to also get a porsche.

It's easy to say this now that you aren't going to be like that- but a decade of hard studying, delayed gratification, and comparison to friends in other fields will tempt you to keep up with the Jones once you start making money.
 
MemeLord said:
I am genuinely trying to have sympathy for this, but it sounds more like a personal problem. May just be my upbringing....I can understand how one is physically capable of doing this, it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Click to expand...

100% agree. I think we had a conversation about this over PM where you and I talked about our similar backgrounds.
 
Sorry to hear your troubles, Jim. My father had similar issues, especially with not having time. After about 20 years practicing, he went into industry where he makes a lot and actually gets to spend time with us and, first the first time in years, has a hobby! Maybe consider a career change--what's the point in continuing radiology if it makes you so desperately unhappy?

As a premed, thank you for sharing your experience. It's good to hear firsthand accounts, though after seeing the responses to your post it may not surprise you to know that we are expecting a lot of this. Physician burnout and suicide has been a hot topic since I was in high school, and learning about what medicine looks like post-Obama is the point of the hundreds of hours of clinical experience we all get. Still, your perspective is valuable to us. Good luck as you continue to search for what makes you happy.
 
While I think you bring some valid things there are some instances where you made mistakes.

You’ve made bad financial decisions. Losing 50% on bad investments? You’re being loose with your money and risky.

It’s important to stay in touch with family and make time for social things with friends. It seems in your ambition you stopped being social and over time lost relationships. It’s important to take out time for yourself no matter how busy you are.

But like I said you bring some valid points. A couple of doctors I shadowed talked about some dissatisfactions with the job. Less time with patients and overworked hours. One doctor told me one of their friends from med school took their own life. Physician burnout is real and the suicide rate and depression has increased. There needs to be changes for our doctors. There is no denying this. With that said I believe most doctors still love what they do but something needs to be done.
 
Something that keeps getting thrown out is “going into medicine for the right reasons”. It’s entirely possible that folks go into it with the best intentions but the reality of modern medicine kicks in and you feel taken advantage of. Working one’s ass off for the better part of a couple decades while taking on massive debt from a school that does not provide nearly the value for what they charge and then working for $12/hr with little free time as a junior resident and waiting until mid 30s before a fair paycheck does cause the money aspect to get emphasized. It’s unfortunate really but the massive opportunity cost and financial investment that medicine entails is too sizable and can easily lead to a shift in values, especially when you see less capable peers working half as hard for a nice life. So it’s not entirely unreasonable to feel like Dr. Jim and many who actually practice medicine resonate with his sentiment, which is why if you talk to a handful of physicians many will actively try to stop you from going into medicine. Maybe that wouldn’t be the case if the profession hadn’t eroded into a depersonalized, thankless job. Patients rarely give a sincere thank you, have ridiculous expectations, mid level encroachment, threat of lawsuit, non-stop paperwork, insurance denials, increasingly corporate etc etc. The trust in physicians has been dwindling too, many think we are greedy and/or inept. These factors alone drive many into radiology because clinical medicine has gotten so bad and yet that isn’t safe from issues either. There’s no way in hell I’d recommend going to med school, but no pre-med will take that to heart until they’ve put in 1000s of hours, plenty of $$$, and wear the golden handcuffs. Caveat Emptor
 
Jimsmith886 said:
Best post in the entire thread. EVERY pre-med should read and re-read this post. It is gold. Save yourself.
Click to expand...

If anyone is studying for the MCAT this is a good example of belief perseverance...

I shadowed a dozen doctors and every single one of them told me to go into medicine. They were all really happy with their jobs. Yeah, insurance and hospital administration sucks, but what's new? Opportunity cost seems to be one of the main arguments against doing medicine on here. I am almost 30 years old (and SDN has a lot of nontrads). I am sure as hell not going into medicine for the money. That would be stupid.
 
Cornfed101 said:
If anyone is studying for the MCAT this is a good example of belief perseverance...

I shadowed a dozen doctors and every single one of them told me to go into medicine. They were all really happy with their jobs. Yeah, insurance and hospital administration sucks, but what's new? Opportunity cost seems to be one of the main arguments against doing medicine on here. I am almost 30 years old (and SDN has a lot of nontrads). I am sure as hell not going into medicine for the money. That would be stupid.
Click to expand...

Or confirmation bias
 
Cornfed101 said:
I am sure as hell not going into medicine for the money. That would be stupid.
Click to expand...
I am only 24, but looking through the lens of a nontrad, I actively chose to leave a good career to pursue this pathway. I think Non-trad perspective might just be different....


Edit: Yes, I understand this is also a good example of confirmation bias lol
 
Cornfed101 said:
If anyone is studying for the MCAT this is a good example of belief perseverance...

I shadowed a dozen doctors and every single one of them told me to go into medicine. They were all really happy with their jobs. Yeah, insurance and hospital administration sucks, but what's new? Opportunity cost seems to be one of the main arguments against doing medicine on here. I am almost 30 years old (and SDN has a lot of nontrads). I am sure as hell not going into medicine for the money. That would be stupid.
Click to expand...
This thread is honestly terribly condescending and out of touch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top