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Actually .. you don't pay taxes on principal forgiven through PSLF, but certainly do pay taxes on amounts forgiven through the various income based repayment plans, or on any amounts ultimately wiped out through a default! 🙂
Exactly. The tax bill for the amount forgiven on a $300,000 loan at 3.5% is going to be brutal (half the normal rate because the government pays for half the interest during income-based repayment, at least using the REPAYE plan which is the best one). After 25 years of $500 a month payments, $470,000 will be forgiven. In today's tax code that will result in the federal tax burden of $97,000 due in a single year, probably more than that because the forgiven amount is added to your income for that year. So really you have to be paying $500 a month and be saving an additional amount to pay off the tax burden. I'm not actually sure what amount of income in the REPAYE plan would require $500 month payment, but regardless it's clear that even with loan forgiveness it can be a pretty brutal financial hit.

The possibility of loan forgiveness is one of the reasons to always take out federal loans and not private loans even if you get a marginally better interest rate from the private loan. The REPAYE interest rate during residency is actually half the advertised interest rate and then once you finish residency and can guarantee a good income as an attending, you can refinance. With the federal loan if you don't match you at least have the option of 25 years of on-time payments and then some forgiveness.
 
Exactly. The tax bill for the amount forgiven on a $300,000 loan at 3.5% is going to be brutal (half the normal rate because the government pays for half the interest during income-based repayment, at least using the REPAYE plan which is the best one). After 25 years of $500 a month payments, $470,000 will be forgiven. In today's tax code that will result in the federal tax burden of $97,000 due in a single year, probably more than that because the forgiven amount is added to your income for that year. So really you have to be paying $500 a month and be saving an additional amount to pay off the tax burden. I'm not actually sure what amount of income in the REPAYE plan would require $500 month payment, but regardless it's clear that even with loan forgiveness it can be a pretty brutal financial hit.

The possibility of loan forgiveness is one of the reasons to always take out federal loans and not private loans even if you get a marginally better interest rate from the private loan. The REPAYE interest rate during residency is actually half the advertised interest rate and then once you finish residency and can guarantee a good income as an attending, you can refinance. With the federal loan if you don't match you at least have the option of 25 years of on-time payments and then some forgiveness.
Right now, with rates so low, REPAYE loan interest rate would be less than most mortgages. Crazy
 
That's crazy that someone from the US went to the Caribbean for a BS/MD degree. I forgot to mention that from what I can tell their five and six year programs seem to be focused on British, Indian, European, etc students who are more qualified when they leave high school than American students (on average), so their BS/MD degrees don't seem to cater that strongly to Americans. Unless the seven year degree which just requires a US high school diploma is their most popular. Still weird for an American to not at least try a semester or two at a cheap domestic undergrad and see how they do. Oh well, glad it seemed to work out okay for that kid. At least his life isn't totally ruined.
parent is a physician and probably felt it takes too long to became an MD in US. I know few other kids who went to India right after the HS and was able to get residency 8 years after HS.
 
You most certainly do!

Uh...no. Did you even read the first few sentences of that source you posted? lol

Generally, student loan forgiveness is excluded from income if the forgiveness is contingent upon the student working for a specific number of years in certain professions.

Public service loan forgiveness
, teacher loan forgiveness, law school loan repayment assistance programs and the National Health Service Corps Loan Repayment Program are not taxable.
 
This. If you go to college and learn how to code (heck, even if you skip the college and learn how to code) you are almost guaranteed a career with above average earnings.
Alright folks, that's the thread. We have had "just do a trade" and "just learn how to code." This finishes up the career advice bingo board!

Not sure why this website even exists if we can just do a trade or learn to code.
 
Alright folks, that's the thread. We have had "just do a trade" and "just learn how to code." This finishes up the career advice bingo board!

Not sure why this website even exists if we can just do a trade or learn to code.
Don't be ridiculous.

This website exists because we want to pursue medicine.

There are a LOT of resources out there that can teach you how to code for free. Obviously you need access to the internet, but that's about it.

CS is most certainly an incredibly viable career, and pays well whether you're a high school dropout or have a Ph.D.

Not sure what the point of your comment is. It's consistently one of the better ROI careers. You think everyone should just pursue a liberal arts degree?
 
Many of my friends are in the trades. Union electricians, plumbers, contractors, small business owners. True, their bodies start wearing out in the 50s. Often, they can start a small business doing more bidding and supervising work. My older son has a degree in law enforcement, but drives a bottle truck for drillers making like 3 times what he could make as a part time muni police officer. Last year he earned 90+k. A CDL requires like 6 weeks of training and a period of mentored driving. No college required. In Fla, it is very difficult to find anyone to do home remodeling and the craftsmanship is mediocre, unlike what we have seen in the northeast. You can earn a decent living in the trades, probably not into your late 60s when Soc Sec pays full retirement benefits. Someone has to fix cars, build houses, install sewers, and wire buildings. Higher Ed is in many ways a scam. Look at the insane inflation rate for the cost of college ed. This in great part due to the increase in student loan money put out each year by the govt. They ONLY charge about 6 to 8 percent, about double what anyone can borrow in the private sector for mortgages, etc. I will not get political, but it's an easy Google to see who took over the student loan system from the private sector to make higher education more affordable. They do prey on high schoolers who don't do the simple math. I remember listening to Dave Ramsey scolding a young lady for spending nearly 300k on a Liberal Arts degree in art therapy with an earning potential of like 28k per year. What were the parents thinking? Life is full of choices, make good ones.
 
Don't be ridiculous.

This website exists because we want to pursue medicine.

There are a LOT of resources out there that can teach you how to code for free. Obviously you need access to the internet, but that's about it.

CS is most certainly an incredibly viable career, and pays well whether you're a high school dropout or have a Ph.D.

Not sure what the point of your comment is. It's consistently one of the better ROI careers. You think everyone should just pursue a liberal arts degree?
Anytime someone on the internet says they don't know what career they want to do, the two top answers are always "learn to code and make half a million at Google by age 30" and "do a trade and make 6-figures in 3 years". These two things also come up whenever someone says medicine is/is not a good investment. "You will have a better net worth at retirement if you are a plumber or do computer science."

 
Anytime someone on the internet says they don't know what career they want to do, the two top answers are always "learn to code and make half a million at Google by age 30" and "do a trade and make 6-figures in 3 years". These two things also come up whenever someone says medicine is/is not a good investment. "You will have a better net worth at retirement if you are a plumber or do computer science."

But that wasn't my point. The average CS grad makes $60-100k/year mid-career. It's a path to decent financial stability with a good ROI.

I never claimed it was an easy get-rich scheme, or that someone would make half a million by age 30.

Yes, people like to make those Doctor vs X comparisons, which are usually quite flawed.
 
Many of my friends are in the trades. Union electricians, plumbers, contractors, small business owners. True, their bodies start wearing out in the 50s. Often, they can start a small business doing more bidding and supervising work. My older son has a degree in law enforcement, but drives a bottle truck for drillers making like 3 times what he could make as a part time muni police officer. Last year he earned 90+k. A CDL requires like 6 weeks of training and a period of mentored driving. No college required. In Fla, it is very difficult to find anyone to do home remodeling and the craftsmanship is mediocre, unlike what we have seen in the northeast. You can earn a decent living in the trades, probably not into your late 60s when Soc Sec pays full retirement benefits. Someone has to fix cars, build houses, install sewers, and wire buildings. Higher Ed is in many ways a scam. Look at the insane inflation rate for the cost of college ed. This in great part due to the increase in student loan money put out each year by the govt. They ONLY charge about 6 to 8 percent, about double what anyone can borrow in the private sector for mortgages, etc. I will not get political, but it's an easy Google to see who took over the student loan system from the private sector to make higher education more affordable. They do prey on high schoolers who don't do the simple math. I remember listening to Dave Ramsey scolding a young lady for spending nearly 300k on a Liberal Arts degree in art therapy with an earning potential of like 28k per year. What were the parents thinking? Life is full of choices, make good ones.
yes, it's government's fault but government is elected by people 🙂 No one cares about national debt as long as they get their cut.
 
Uh...no. Did you even read the first few sentences of that source you posted? lol
Of course I did -- go back to my original post on the topic:

Actually .. you don't pay taxes on principal forgiven through PSLF, but certainly do pay taxes on amounts forgiven through the various income based repayment plans, or on any amounts ultimately wiped out through a default! 🙂
 
yes, it's government's fault but government is elected by people 🙂 No one cares about national debt as long as they get their cut.
Agreed, but I guess my sarcasm didn't bleed through. It's not always obvious when posting. When mentioning the govt takeover of the student loans, it was under the guise of making college more affordable and accessible by only charging double the interest rate private banks would charge. Quite a scam imo.
 
Many of my friends are in the trades. Union electricians, plumbers, contractors, small business owners. True, their bodies start wearing out in the 50s. Often, they can start a small business doing more bidding and supervising work. My older son has a degree in law enforcement, but drives a bottle truck for drillers making like 3 times what he could make as a part time muni police officer. Last year he earned 90+k. A CDL requires like 6 weeks of training and a period of mentored driving. No college required. In Fla, it is very difficult to find anyone to do home remodeling and the craftsmanship is mediocre, unlike what we have seen in the northeast. You can earn a decent living in the trades, probably not into your late 60s when Soc Sec pays full retirement benefits. Someone has to fix cars, build houses, install sewers, and wire buildings. Higher Ed is in many ways a scam. Look at the insane inflation rate for the cost of college ed. This in great part due to the increase in student loan money put out each year by the govt. They ONLY charge about 6 to 8 percent, about double what anyone can borrow in the private sector for mortgages, etc. I will not get political, but it's an easy Google to see who took over the student loan system from the private sector to make higher education more affordable. They do prey on high schoolers who don't do the simple math. I remember listening to Dave Ramsey scolding a young lady for spending nearly 300k on a Liberal Arts degree in art therapy with an earning potential of like 28k per year. What were the parents thinking? Life is full of choices, make good ones.
One of those good choices is going to a CC for the first two years of UG. The BA/BS will still be that of a 4 year year school.
 
You most certainly do!

What is wrong with people?! Do you only read the headline of an article?

The SECOND line of the article says:

"Generally, student loan forgiveness is excluded from income if the forgiveness is contingent upon the student working for a specific number of years in certain professions."
 
Agreed, but I guess my sarcasm didn't bleed through. It's not always obvious when posting. When mentioning the govt takeover of the student loans, it was under the guise of making college more affordable and accessible by only charging double the interest rate private banks would charge. Quite a scam imo.
Not really. Mortgages are secured by tangible assets (real estate). Education loans are backed up by nothing other than the earning potential of those receiving the loans. The interest rates are actually far lower than they should be, given the huge amount of loan losses ultimately eaten by the taxpayers. If student loans were in the private market, without federal guarantees, interest rates and/or loan insurance rates would be through the roof, with parents required as co-signers and poor people and people with bad credit shut out entirely.

It is what it is -- a government program designed to open access to everyone. It runs at a huge loss, paid for by taxpayers. What you consider a ridiculously high interest rate is in fact highly subsidized, as evidenced by the number of loans in default. Just tell me what private bank offers unsecured personal loans at interest rates close to what is charged on student loans!!! The closest thing is a credit card, and those rates are FAR higher than student loan rates. 🙂
 
What is wrong with people?! Do you only read the headline of an article?

The SECOND line of the article says:

"Generally, student loan forgiveness is excluded from income if the forgiveness is contingent upon the student working for a specific number of years in certain professions."
YES!!! PSLF!!!! Not income based repayment write-offs! Just like I said in my first post!!!

Actually, that is the FOURTH sentence of the article. 😎

The SECOND sentence of the article says:

"Under current law, the amount forgiven generally represents taxable income for income tax purposes in the year it is written off."
 
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Literally almost any job that is not min wage will lead to more useful job opportunities than this career path a UG degree, and especially a Masters degree, would certainly be higher yield for job opportunity. higher ed in STEM is a much better option. And not to bash Art history that much, some people like that, just like some people like being a teacher despite low income. perhaps @Vivid_Quail's argument should have been STEM degrees will almost certainly yield more opportunities in almost every case. If higher education guaranteed high income most everyone would be college grads, but I think Quail is saying that it increases your odds of high income/employment. Obviously you and your sister's story may be an exception.


Oh certainly. I am not disputing that.

The argument that I am making, however, is that the predatory nature of Carib schools is nothing unique in American education. Yes, you will certainly make more with a STEM degree and it is a much safer bet undoubtedly. However many students don't pursue STEM. Many students don't even graduate. A cursory search on the internet has the graduation rate for public colleges and universities at 33%. The remainder are all students who are paying significant sums of money and who absolutely should not be in college. They either do not have the drive, or ability, to commit fully to their education in a way that would win them the promised ROI. The 6-year graduation rate for public universities was 61% (citing 2012 numbers) which means 4 in 10 students who start full-time at publicly funded universities do not achieve degrees within 6 years.

What is this if not predatory? The entire system says "get a degree and you will be successful" and then gets 17 year olds to pour thousands of dollars into "the college experience" and "pursuing their passions," with nearly half failing to obtain said degree. This is significant wasted time and money and a glaring inefficiency that has been brought about by specific policy initiatives directing young adults towards a college path despite clear evidence that that may not be in everyone's best interest.

Idk, I just can't help but feel that I am uniquely successful among my 400-person HS class. As far as I know I am the only one who has gotten into an MD program and the only one who enlisted right out of HS. I'm not saying this to tout my own success, but more to say that I routinely bucked the system and disregarded the conventional wisdom regarding career and education and I have done tremendously well. I've put myself through college without financial aid from my parents, I am graduating not just debt free but with sizeable savings, and I have been successful in achieving my educational goals. This is because I laid these goals out as a clear-eyed adult and I pursued them methodically. You can certainly do this as a young adult, but let's be real not every 17 year old is at that point in their lives - so why are we not just allowing them to mortgage their future on half-baked schemes, but encouraging them to do so? And how is taking advantage of the general uncertainty and naivete that comes with freshly graduating high school any less predatory than what Carib schools are doing?
 
I wouldn't consider a UG "much better than a HS diploma." My first decade out of high school I worked while my sister went to UG and then to a Masters program for Art History. I made more money than her as a GS-04 fighting wildfires when she had a State job working in a museum. I did this without her 100k in student debt. Many of the jobs out there are hardly competitive with the money and lifestyle that come with trade jobs like powerlineman, electricians, plumbers, ect, especially when accounting for debt and the location of these jobs. Powerlinemen can easily pull six figures having never gone into educational debt.

Certainly Carib schools play on people who are way too committed and have few options but so does a large proportion of the education system. I frankly don't believe we need nearly the amount of college educated people we produce. Obviously you need a strong academic foundation as a physician but do you really need a communications degree to become a secretary?

That many non-profit education programs exist off of students trying to break into competitive fields who are looking to pad their resume isn't new. The UG program my sister attended had no problem taking her money for a "photography degree" and essentially pigeonholed her into a situation where the only way she could work in her "field" was with a Masters, and the promise of a job even with that was tenuous at best.

So, broadly speaking, we have a Med school pipeline that cuts out the bottom 50% right off the bat and who knows how many of those kids would be able to make effective use of their UG diploma. I mean, I hedged my bets and got a Bio degree because I could use that to go right back into land management, but someone with a Kinesiology degree? There are few options that exist without seriously more debt commitment and a lot more tenuous of a road. Maybe PE teacher....

At the end of the day we have a system where we know that at least half the entrants won't be successful and we are more than comfortable taking their money until they drop out. This exist regardless of whether we are talking about Community Colleges, UGs, Carib Med Schools, or SMPs. Inability to pay of student debt is hardly a feature of failed Med students.
Statistically a bachelor's degree nearly doubles your yearly income compared to high school or lower levels of education. That's *huge* and pretending it isn't is kind of disingenuous.
 
One of those good choices is going to a CC for the first two years of UG. The BA/BS will still be that of a 4 year year school.
But students demand full 4 year college experience and commuting to CC from home is a loser for them.
 
Agreed, but I guess my sarcasm didn't bleed through. It's not always obvious when posting. When mentioning the govt takeover of the student loans, it was under the guise of making college more affordable and accessible by only charging double the interest rate private banks would charge. Quite a scam imo.
Solution for that is to forgive student loans as being promoted by two popular senators on the left.
 
Statistically a bachelor's degree nearly doubles your yearly income compared to high school or lower levels of education. That's *huge* and pretending it isn't is kind of disingenuous.

It is also disingenuous to ignore the the 4/10 drop out rate for Bachelors degrees at publicly funded schools. I'm not denying that having an education is very beneficial, I am taking exception to the fact that almost half of the people who pursue an education fail, and that encouraging everyone to pursue college is viable.

Yes, if you get a degree you are more likely to command higher income. However, you need to be succesful in obtaining said degree.
 
It is also disingenuous to ignore the the 4/10 drop out rate for Bachelors degrees at publicly funded schools. I'm not denying that having an education is very beneficial, I am taking exception to the fact that almost half of the people who pursue an education fail, and that encouraging everyone to pursue college is viable.

Yes, if you get a degree you are more likely to command higher income. However, you need to be succesful in obtaining said degree.
I think colleges should reject more people. I think federal funding should be cut off to most for-profit schools, and that federally guaranteed student loans should no longer be a thing. Community college should be heavily subsidized, as it is economically efficient, and four year degrees should be left to the free market and banks to determine who is eligible for loans. This would bring college prices down substantially and eliminate many of the unnecessary players in education
 
I think colleges should reject more people. I think federal funding should be cut off to most for-profit schools, and that federally guaranteed student loans should no longer be a thing. Community college should be heavily subsidized, as it is economically efficient, and four year degrees should be left to the free market and banks to determine who is eligible for loans. This would bring college prices down substantially and eliminate many of the unnecessary players in education
No politician will dare to propose that in current climate and most young people think they are entitled to everything.
 
Oh certainly. I am not disputing that.

The argument that I am making, however, is that the predatory nature of Carib schools is nothing unique in American education. Yes, you will certainly make more with a STEM degree and it is a much safer bet undoubtedly. However many students don't pursue STEM. Many students don't even graduate. A cursory search on the internet has the graduation rate for public colleges and universities at 33%. The remainder are all students who are paying significant sums of money and who absolutely should not be in college. They either do not have the drive, or ability, to commit fully to their education in a way that would win them the promised ROI. The 6-year graduation rate for public universities was 61% (citing 2012 numbers) which means 4 in 10 students who start full-time at publicly funded universities do not achieve degrees within 6 years.

What is this if not predatory? The entire system says "get a degree and you will be successful" and then gets 17 year olds to pour thousands of dollars into "the college experience" and "pursuing their passions," with nearly half failing to obtain said degree. This is significant wasted time and money and a glaring inefficiency that has been brought about by specific policy initiatives directing young adults towards a college path despite clear evidence that that may not be in everyone's best interest.

Idk, I just can't help but feel that I am uniquely successful among my 400-person HS class. As far as I know I am the only one who has gotten into an MD program and the only one who enlisted right out of HS. I'm not saying this to tout my own success, but more to say that I routinely bucked the system and disregarded the conventional wisdom regarding career and education and I have done tremendously well. I've put myself through college without financial aid from my parents, I am graduating not just debt free but with sizeable savings, and I have been successful in achieving my educational goals. This is because I laid these goals out as a clear-eyed adult and I pursued them methodically. You can certainly do this as a young adult, but let's be real not every 17 year old is at that point in their lives - so why are we not just allowing them to mortgage their future on half-baked schemes, but encouraging them to do so? And how is taking advantage of the general uncertainty and naivete that comes with freshly graduating high school any less predatory than what Carib schools are doing?
I agree, I personally think that STEM degrees should be much more incentivized. Lots of people run straight out of the high school playground to UG, pouring money into either useless degrees or degrees that they will not complete. I think more people need to do some soul searching and get experience before committing to tens of thousands of dollars of debt (or hundreds of thousands) into something that shouldn't do. That is one reason people see the Caribbean schools so problematic because they bypass the systems in place (high standard of admission) and allow students that have no business taking that amount of debt, without being sure or capable to pursue medicine. I myself spent two years in Guatemala on a church mission right out of high school that honestly taught me a lot, so I was 21 before I took my first UG class and was more sure of my decision to pursue medicine (not everyone will do that, but something outside of high school or home town living will probs help gain perspective). I think it is necessary for people to have a reasonable plan before taking on such risk (debt), regardless of where the institution is. bottom line, We need a lot less liberal art degrees and a lot more STEM degrees. lets get on it
 
No politician will dare to propose that in current climate and most young people think they are entitled to everything.
I'm not a politician, thankfully. But an approach to education that gives the most benefit for the least taxpayer cash is what we should be doing. It would limit college budgets and force them to cut administration that has ballooned far beyond reason
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You realize we can't have an entire economy of engineers and computer programmers, right?
Depends. If you've got enough people going into it you could have a heavily technical economy like that of Japan. More engineers and computer programmers means more innovators, more startups, and more technologies we have not yet developed which can expand to employ new people. We need the arts, however, as the liberal arts actually contribute heavily to development and design of many products and services
 
You realize we can't have an entire economy of engineers and computer programmers, right?
STEM is a lot more than engineering and CS.

Also, I did not advocate for everyone to get a STEM degree, I said we need more STEM and less liberal art.
 
Depends. If you've got enough people going into it you could have a heavily technical economy like that of Japan. More engineers and computer programmers means more innovators, more startups, and more technologies we have not yet developed which can expand to employ new people. We need the arts, however, as the liberal arts actually contribute heavily to development and design of many products and services
Not sure I want to model our economy after a country with 35% lower GDP (PPP) per capita than the US and a declining population size. The only other countries with a declining population are ex-Eastern Bloc states and the failed economies of Greece, Italy, and Portugal. Not great company to be in.
 
Not sure I want to model our economy after a country with 35% lower GDP (PPP) per capita than the US and a declining population size. The only other countries with a declining population are ex-Eastern Bloc states and the failed economies of Greece, Italy, and Portugal. Not great company to be in.
But they have bullet trains.
 
STEM is a lot more than engineering and CS.

Also, I did not advocate for everyone to get a STEM degree, I said we need more STEM and less liberal art.

I think we just need to stop pigeonholing kids into college. You can make plenty good use out of liberal arts/humanities but you have to know why you are pursuing those and have some intention for what you want to do with those degrees.

Liberal arts and humanities are abused because they are rather open-ended so many students who have no idea what they are doing or why they are in school pursue these options out of nothing more than passing interest. It is much harder to do so with any STEM degrees. You don't go into CS unless you want to work in that field, but you can get a psych degree because "having a degree is important and I like psych".

I think we would do much better just ensuring students pursuing college actually want to be there, have realistic expectations, have explored other options, have been introduced to other forms of education and career advancement (including OJT), and understand the implications of the debt they are taking on.

Also we need to totally drop the "pursue your passion" and "college experience" nonsense. First, find a way to earn a living. Then, find a way you enjoy to earn a living.
 
Also we need to totally drop the "pursue your passion" and "college experience" nonsense. First, find a way to earn a living. Then, find a way you enjoy to earn a living.
That's too much to ask for the current generation across the world.
 
I'm not a politician, thankfully. But an approach to education that gives the most benefit for the least taxpayer cash is what we should be doing. It would limit college budgets and force them to cut administration that has ballooned far beyond reason
View attachment 331103
Administration costs went up since they keep coming up with new programs to cater to different groups and save themselves from law suits?
 
It is hard to say that a college education is necessary for many jobs it is required for (or required to be competitive for). Especially given that many people entering college haven't actually reached a high school level of competency. You definitely need a college education to go to med school but, again, I don't think that Comms or Psych degree buys anyone that much.

Hard to say that education isn't practically a monopoly especially for undeserved communities. You get stuck with bloated public schools with long track records of failure. The teachers unions vehemently oppose any democratization efforts through charter schools or school choice initiatives. In fact, many in these unions want to openly abolish private and charter schools as well as home schooling. It is not the realm of conspiracy to point out that the teachers Unions represent some of the most potent Unions in the US, the safest (their work has not been outsourced) and some of the most steadfast supporters of one particular political party.

So yes, I think it's a racket. I think that idiots in the Department of Education a generation ago made the sophomoric determination that if everyone had college degrees, everyone would get high wages, and we've seen an explosion in the college-student population, an opening of the federal loan floodgates, an explosion in student debt, a balooning in University tuition, costs, and beuracracy, and these initiatives have essentially turned our education system into a jobs program. Many school districts knowingly pass substandard students for whatever reason. The math competency rate in the LA public school system is something like 30%. With the twin combination of abject failure to maintain standards in K-12 and massive tuition increases in college, one has to wonder whether we are passing these kids merely to keep the would be costumer population strong. The cynic in me would argue that the much touted "college experience" is another unjustified selling point pitched to naive children who end up mortgaging their future to pay for this bloat.



Again, I am not defending Carib schools, per se. I just don't see them as exceptionally more predatory than the rest of the education system. I went to High School like the rest of yall. I saw my peers consciously directed in a college-only manner despite knowing full well many of them would not thrive in college at that time. Many of my peers went on to get useless degrees if at all and are no better for it. Many of them passed their time in Community Colleges, aimless, only to drop out. They are degree-less yet still carry student debt without the benefit of any actual skill. Even at the rather strong acemic instition I go to, I rub elbows with plenty want-to-be Med students whose abilities would be doubted by any reasonable person. We all know that a very large proportion of self-identified premeds will ultimately fail to matriculate, that their education costs billions of dollars, and yet we only seem to take exception to the Carib schools taking advantage of this money.

This is weird to me because the track record of the Carib schools, along with their reputation, is probably the most honest. It is hard to do any basic amount of internet research and then be duped by these schools, whereas plenty of US colleges thrive off of the nebulous promises of higher education that are hardly ever realized by their student population.
1. For education to be a monopoly, it has to be a FOR PROFIT organization. Education in the U.S. is not a business. It is govt-run, as I just explained above.
2. Again, education is an investment in your future. Especially now that a bachelor's degree is required for pretty much any type of job. I don't even understand HOW children could "mortgage their future."
3. "Their education cost billions of dollars"--hardly. See #2 above.
4. Your argument is that education rarely makes anyone's future better. According to this research (which is taken from this), and this, the percentage of people with a bachelor's degree or higher is increasing rapidly. This makes the job market a lot more competitive. While this should not be considered a "racket," it just goes to show that educational attainment is on the rise. I think that's what you meant when you were talking about people without high school diplomas not getting very far in life. Education is a real thing. It is truly valuable. It is not a conspiracy, and it does pay off.

la fin
 
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but do we need to spend $70K/yr to get liberal arts degree when the salaries for most of those majors are below $50K?
This is the crux of the problem. Why does getting a degree in art history cost the same as getting a degree in computer science? Cost of the degree should vary based on average income of the field you're getting the degree in. Computer science majors should pay more for their computer science degree because they will likely have a higher paying job after college; gender studies majors should pay less for their degree for the same reason.
 
but do we need to spend $70K/yr to get liberal arts degree when the salaries for most of those majors are below $50K?
See this
Also, that's ~$60k per year x ~30-40 years working, or $1,800,000 to $2,400,000 over the course of one's career. I HIGHLY doubt that one couldn't pay off their debts with a bachelor's degree.
 
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This is the crux of the problem. Why does getting a degree in art history cost the same as getting a degree in computer science? Cost of the degree should vary based on average income of the field you're getting the degree in. Computer science majors should pay more for their computer science degree because they will likely have a higher paying job after college; gender studies majors should pay less for their degree for the same reason.
Because it requires roughly the same number of credit hours, professor hours, etc?
 
Not sure I want to model our economy after a country with 35% lower GDP (PPP) per capita than the US and a declining population size. The only other countries with a declining population are ex-Eastern Bloc states and the failed economies of Greece, Italy, and Portugal. Not great company to be in.
The economy isn't the reason for Japan's reduced birthrate, it is multifactorial and the result of a lot of disparte factors that aren't particularly relevant to the US. Saying Japan's birthrate is low because they have too many people in technical jobs is like saying Saudia Arabia's environment is mostly desert because their major economic product is oil, it just isn't a statement that holds water
 
Administration costs went up since they keep coming up with new programs to cater to different groups and save themselves from law suits?
Admin costs went up because they keep hiring people to micromanage various aspects of colleges. Many administrators create projects to justify their position, and these projects require staffing. The project members eventually themselves become leads and develop their own projects to justify their salary and existence, requiring further more staff. It is basic bureaucracy in action, you see it in any system where modern management takes hold. Blaming this on antidiscrimination programs is just ridiculous. Healthcare is another excellent example of admin creep:
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This is the crux of the problem. Why does getting a degree in art history cost the same as getting a degree in computer science? Cost of the degree should vary based on average income of the field you're getting the degree in. Computer science majors should pay more for their computer science degree because they will likely have a higher paying job after college; gender studies majors should pay less for their degree for the same reason.
Dude, no one with half a brain is racking up $70k/yr in debt getting a degree in art history. I went to a small liberal arts school with a huge sticker price...I got a ton of financial aid/scholarships that made it cheaper than my public state school. My friends that paid full price had rich parents and less debt. If you actually want/need a degree in a field that makes $50-70k/yr mid-career, go to a public school and it is totally affordable. The problem with med school is that there are almost 0 scholarships or financial aid that make any difference and medical schools are more expensive than undergrad on top of that. Just look at the debt for a public 4-year degree.

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<1% have debt over $100,000.

The average debt for a 4-year bachelor's degree in the US is $29k.

The average amount of debt for a SGU medical school grad is $311,857, median is $385,980. Only 77% of students graduate on time. Remember this is the "top" carib school. For a MEDICAL SCHOOL, that graduation rate is not much better than the rates for bachelor's degrees, especially because the quality of students at a medical school should be much much higher and the enormous cost difference for an extra year in med school vs undergrad. "The official four-year graduation rate for students attending public colleges and universities is 33.3%. The six-year rate is 57.6%. At private colleges and universities, the four-year graduation rate is 52.8%, and 65.4% earn a degree in six years." On top of that, 50% of Caribbean students don't match, which essentially makes them unemployed for the purposes of their degree. 50% of 4-year college grads are not unemployed.

I wish I found this data sooner because it completely ends the argument that "Caribbean schools are not more predatory than undergrad degrees in the US." Caribbean degrees literally cost more than 10 times on average than a 4-year public undergrad degree with worse outcomes.
 
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The economy isn't the reason for Japan's reduced birthrate, it is multifactorial and the result of a lot of disparte factors that aren't particularly relevant to the US. Saying Japan's birthrate is low because they have too many people in technical jobs is like saying Saudia Arabia's environment is mostly desert because their major economic product is oil, it just isn't a statement that holds water
Their economy is the main reason for their birthrate. I didn't say their birthrate was only because of a lot of tech jobs. All I said is that Japan is not a country I want to emulate in any way, especially not their economy.
 
See this
Also, that's ~$60k per year x ~30-40 years working, or $1,800,000 to $2,400,000 over the course of one's career. I HIGHLY doubt that one couldn't pay off their debts with a bachelor's degree.


Yeah well people also spend money on other things, including food, housing, cars, kids, taking care of their parents, ect. Depending on where you like 60k can go far it doesn't have to go anywhere. Also, simply because they *can* pay off this debt doesn't mean it's worthwhile debt. A house is a good investment, a gender-studies degree arguably is not.

Lets not forget that we all pay taxes too.
 
Because it requires roughly the same number of credit hours, professor hours, etc
Sure, but we're trying to address the issue of students taking on the same amount of student loans entering into a field with low earning potential, as their counterparts entering higher earning fields. "Because its the same" doesn't really help much when trying to address that issue.
 
75% of graduates from private, nonprofit colleges had loans as of May 2018 (average debt of $32,300)
88% of graduates from for-profit colleges had loans as of May 2018 (average debt of $39,950)

There is the data for private, nonprofit and for-profit. Still about 9-10x cheaper than a Caribbean medical school degree for less risk.

The idea that a domestic undergrad degree is as predatory as a Caribbean medical degree is laughable when you actually look at the numbers...not just "I was a wildfire firefighter for a few years and made more than my sister with an art degree."
 
I have come across foreign born and trained medical doctors, who immigrated to USA with the intention of becoming a US licensed physician. Usually 1 fail on a step exam means that is a dead dream and they do jobs below their capacities for years or decades.
There are also the US medical graduates with too many fails on step exams.
And the doctors barred from ever working again due to addiction or crime.
It's not just the US citizens who went to Caribbean medical schools.
And I believe US military service doesn't cover any foreign medical school debt for US citizens.
And, I have come across US citizens and US permanent residents who attended medical school in Ireland, India, and South Korea, I presume, because they held citizenship in those countries, and couldn't gain acceptance in a US medical school.
 
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Yeah well people also spend money on other things, including food, housing, cars, kids, taking care of their parents, ect. Depending on where you like 60k can go far it doesn't have to go anywhere. Also, simply because they *can* pay off this debt doesn't mean it's worthwhile debt. A house is a good investment, a gender-studies degree arguably is not.

Lets not forget that we all pay taxes too.
Taxes are only ~20% of income, and you get a refund every year. Without getting into the minutiae of budgeting, again, I HIGHLY doubt that people can't pay off their students loans because they have to pay rent. That is why federal programs like IBR exist. The rest is regular adulting--making and sticking to a budget, etc.
 
Yeah well people also spend money on other things, including food, housing, cars, kids, taking care of their parents, ect. Depending on where you like 60k can go far it doesn't have to go anywhere. Also, simply because they *can* pay off this debt doesn't mean it's worthwhile debt. A house is a good investment, a gender-studies degree arguably is not.

Lets not forget that we all pay taxes too.
A person who makes $60k/year and has a slightly above average student loan burden of $50k for their 4-year degree will have a monthly payment of $297/month and will be debt free in 16-17 years of payments. That is extremely manageable.
 
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