Yale vs. CWRU

[doozy]

I'm in a position where I can only interview at one of these places. Other than location, does anyone have any insight into which is the better program?

Thanks!

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[doctortom]

The Case ophtho residency program was on probation last year so that's a huge minus. Additionally, they were pretty evasive when asked about it. I would interview at Yale.

 

[RestoreSight]

Avoid Case IMO. Yale is on the rise. Dr. Tsai their chairman is a very involved person and a leading clinical glaucoma researcher. Their PD is also pretty solid. New Haven is boring, but Cleveland is even worse. Yale's facilities are pretty good too. Solid program and hands down would choose over Case.

 

[dantt]

Avoid Case IMO. Yale is on the rise. Dr. Tsai their chairman is a very involved person and a leading clinical glaucoma researcher. Their PD is also pretty solid. New Haven is boring, but Cleveland is even worse. Yale's facilities are pretty good too. Solid program and hands down would choose over Case.

Tsai is great. In retrospect, online forums are a terrible place to talk about rumors.

 

[doozy]

This is, I realize, a question that illustrates how new I am to the field...but how do you guys find this stuff out. For instance how well known Dr. Tsai is, rumors of him possibly leaving, etc. This is all great stuff that would be great info for interviews and ranking that is obviously not on the schools' websites. Any good sources for really getting great info on programs? Thanks in advance for any help and thanks for the advice folks.

 

[the vitrector]

Yale > CWRU

 

[dantt]

Told you so.

http://www.mountsinai.org/about-us/...hthalmology-for-the-mount-sinai-health-system

 

[OphthoPractice]

Tsai is great. In retrospect, online forums are a terrible place to talk about rumors.

Told you so.

http://www.mountsinai.org/about-us/...hthalmology-for-the-mount-sinai-health-system

Haha. Nice. The rumors about programs on this forum can get pretty ridiculous. Everyone has their own opinion and at the end it's all hearsay. It's funny hearing what other applicants are saying on the interview trail, especially when you find out they didn't interview at said program they're bashing and later find a random SDN post saying word-for-word what they said to you in person. Moral of the story, make your own opinion when you interview and don't rely on all the rumors on the interview trail and SDN.

So Dr. Tsai is president of NYEE and chair of Mt. Sinai. How does that fit into the NYEE ophtho program since NYEE and Mt Sinai combined? NYEE is still a separate program or are the ophtho programs combining too?

You can't find much about the NYC programs on here. There's pretty much the unfounded rumor that all NYC programs are junk except for NYEE since the area is so saturated? I guess every program on the East coast is junk then based on that logic?

 

[dantt]

Not completely unfounded

 

[OphthoPractice]

Not completely unfounded

Like?

 

[DrZeke]

If he is chair of mount Sinai then who will become chair at Yale?

 

[Ophthimist1]

On the interview trail, both Mt Sinai and NYEE mentioned that changes from the merger with Mt Sinai would not happen in the immediate future but the reality is a bit different I guess.

Wonder what happens to D. McWilliams Kessler, the previous President of NYEE? He was previously hired by NYEE (in 2007) because of his experience with the expansions of Wills Eye and had some clout at Wills?

Ophthopractice, Too many private ophthalmologists are draining the surgical numbers in NY programs. Whether NYEE raises the level of Mt Sinai or does Mt Sinai pull down NYEE remains to be seen. I am hoping the former happens rather than the latter.

 

[OphthoPractice]

Ophthopractice, Too many private ophthalmologists are draining the surgical numbers in NY programs. Whether NYEE raises the level of Mt Sinai or does Mt Sinai pull down NYEE remains to be seen. I am hoping the former happens rather than the latter.

So the same can be said for every major city essentially. All Chicago, DC, Philly, etc. programs.

 

[Ophthimist1]

Yes. This same principle applies to Philly, Chicago, and Boston too.

Georgetown is in a slightly different category since it's not smack in city area unlike the NY programs. There are no subways connecting downtown DC and the area around Georgetown. The only way to get there is to drive through crazy traffic.

 

[OphthoPractice]

Yes. This same principle applies to Philly, Chicago, and Boston too.

Georgetown is in a slightly different category since it's not smack in city area unlike the NY programs. There are no subways connecting downtown DC and the area around Georgetown. The only way to get there is to drive through traffic which is awful.

Yea but those are also the most fun places to live for a few years assuming have no kids. And the difference in numbers you're typically talking 20-30 cataracts, which isn't a big deal. I feel most of these programs still have in the mid-100s, which is pretty solid. You will also be in more urban areas, likely have a county hospital, so you'll have lots of autonomy and see lots of pathology. See more diverse path is more important than 30 cataracts. You'll do hundreds in your first year of practice.

I interviewed at Georgetown too. They actually had lower numbers than most of the big city programs out there. Residents had barely above 100 cataracts. GW has like mid-100s but they also have to drive far to their 2nd VA in DC traffic. Georgetown gets all the trauma and serves the indigent (more path) population. GW has nice facilities and better numbers for a big city program but still not high nationally and they don't get much trauma or see as much path. Both programs had good fellowship matches, although I think GW has the edge. I didn't match at either, but Georgetown seemed better overall probably.

 

[Ophthimist1]

With NY programs, I do hope things don't go downhill, esp NYEE. Unfortunately though, every year, we see one program go on probation or merge with another to keep afloat. NYMC just came under probation right before our application cycle. Mergers rarely occur if programs are doing very well both functionally and financially. Also, occasionally with mergers, they can decrease cumulative residency spots. It's not yet happened with NYEE but we don't know all the changes yet to occur there.

Agree about Georgetown. I didn't rank them high either.

 

[OphthoPractice]

With NY programs, I think the jury is out. Every year, we see one program go under probation or merge with another to keep afloat. NYMC just came under probation just before our application cycle. Mergers rarely occur if programs are doing very well.

Agree about Georgetown. I didn't rank them high either.

Did you interview at GW or hear much about it? Do you agree Georgetown was probably the best program in DC?

 

[Ophthimist1]

I am afraid if I say any more, folks might be able to figure out where I am. LOL.

 

[dantt]

And the difference in numbers you're typically talking 20-30 cataracts, which isn't a big deal. I feel most of these programs still have in the mid-100s, which is pretty solid. You will also be in more urban areas, likely have a county hospital, so you'll have lots of autonomy and see lots of pathology. See more diverse path is more important than 30 cataracts. You'll do hundreds in your first year of practice.

I'd love to see one of the new york programs actually post their numbers. I suspect they're sitting at <100. Nobody in their first year of practice will be doing hundreds of cataracts, certainly not from one of these programs.

 

[OphthoPractice]

I'd love to see one of the new york programs actually post their numbers. I suspect they're sitting at <100. Nobody in their first year of practice will be doing hundreds of cataracts, certainly not from one of these programs.

Na I interviewed at several. Most programs don't report their numbers. You just ask the residents and they tell you. All the programs had 120s. The super small programs were actually a little higher like closer to 150. I'm guessing because they have less residents but at the same time they're also smaller bc they serve less hospitals so IDK. A lot of the "top tier" have similar numbers. NYC also serve very urban underserved populations so see a lot of path.

You're just proving your own point how spreading rumors online is bad when you don't know for yourself.

 

[Ophthimist1]

My advice to future applicants is to apply broadly, interview at as many places as possible and find out the surgical numbers, range of pathology for yourself. The residents (in NY, Philly, midwest and elsewhere) were extremely frank about the surgical volumes. Don't take our answers here as the whole truth. Find out for yourself and keep track of the strengths and weaknesses of programs as you interview. It will be very easy after the interviews to narrow down your top 3 or top 5.

 

[dantt]

According to the ACGME 2012-2013 completion report, the average # of resident cataracts was 155 with a st. dev of 49. This means approximately 15% of residents are doing < 105 cataracts. One resident did only 76. Where do you think these residents are training?

I felt it was inappropriate to reveal/ruminate about a specific person's career plans...not quite the same thing as speculating about a program's #'s when the answer is ask the program when you interview.

 

[OphthoPractice]

According to the ACGME 2012-2013 completion report, the average # of resident cataracts was 155 with a st. dev of 49. This means approximately 15% of residents are doing < 105 cataracts. One resident did only 76. Where do you think these residents are training?

I felt it was inappropriate to reveal/ruminate about a specific person's career plans...not quite the same thing as speculating about a program's #'s when the answer is ask the program when you interview.

It's also inappropriate to assume those are all in NYC. Ask the individual resident and you'll find out for yourself. Like I said the smaller big city programs generally had higher numbers than the big ones. The class of 6 at Georgetown all had around 100. Even some Midwestern programs were as low, ie SLU.

Another thing not taken into account is some programs have international rotations where they do several dozen more cataracts. These are not included as acgme numbers though and this might better experience than doing that many more in the same US hospital as you might get some extra cap experience and deal with more severe cataracts abroad. And then you also don't know how every program is counting primary cataracts. Some numbers are inflated.

This is why med students shouldn't be overly concerned with numbers. Yes you want solid numbers but don't automatically rank programs with higher ones above everything else. Location and pathology exposure are more important than 30 more cataracts. And the large percentile differences in the specialty surgeries are only like 2-3 procedures.

 

[OpthoForMe]

You guys are really oversimplifying the concept of large cities and lower surgical numbers. In NYC, both NYEE and Sinai have moderate to strong surgical numbers and very busy clinics. In MSSM's case it's because they cover the Bronx VA and a community hospital in Queens, which requires a ton of driving but supplies them with good training. In NYEE's case, they get a ton of referrals from clinics around the city due to their 24/7 eye ER and the fact that they are a strong program with a rich history. The other programs (NYU, Cornell, and Columbia) have pretty weak numbers. In other cities, there is typically a program that kind of sucks the air out of the rest of the city and also receive a large number of regional referrals (Philly--Wills, Chicago--IEEI, Boston--MEEI). The DC programs were both ~90-100 if I recall correctly, and then the programs in Baltimore all seemed to struggle for resident numbers based on what I heard, including Wilmer.

I feel bad for Yale because Dr. Tsai was the huge draw for that program and they seem to be losing a number of faculty members in a very short period of time. Their geographic position between NYC and Boston seems to hurt their volume as well. I'm really confused about what Dr. Tsai's position is now and what the consequences are for the current Chairmen at both NYEE and Sinai. Presumably Dr. Jab is leaving Sinai? Is Dr. Sidoti staying as the Chair of NYEE? The two programs would be extremely difficult to merge as they are now, but maybe they'll figure something out in the future. I would love to know what they told Dr. Tsai about the future plans for the institutions in order to be able to recruit him. Definitely a major period of flux for both programs.

 

[topycer]

Interesting comparison about the New York schools, I'm curious about Cornell, Columbia, NYU, given that Cornell has such a big hospital and Columbia has "Harkness" and NYU has MEETH/Manhattan VA. Do Cornell/Columbia have a VA? I'm applying this coming cycle, so any insight into that would be appreciated!

 

[OpthoForMe]

Interesting comparison about the New York schools, I'm curious about Cornell, Columbia, NYU, given that Cornell has such a big hospital and Columbia has "Harkness" and NYU has MEETH/Manhattan VA. Do Cornell/Columbia have a VA? I'm applying this coming cycle, so any insight into that would be appreciated!

Columbia/Harkness is good for research, but I don't believe that it's ideal for those who also want strong clinical training. It is also a small program with 3 residents per year right now. Cornell and NYU just had relatively low surgical numbers when I visited and the residents did not seem very busy. The plus-side of this is that you have more time for research or studying. I don't believe that either Cornell or Columbia have an affiliation with a VA. This contrasted sharply with NYEE where the seven residents/year were super, super busy, especially in the first year. Their housing is also excellent and is attached to the hospital, so that's either extremely convenient or terrible depending on how you look at it. You see a very indigent patient population at NYEE, and their surgical numbers were at or slightly above the national average in most categories. I also really like their location and program director, although NYEE is rumored to be pretty malignant. The current residents suggested that, while the program was malignant in the past, there had been recent changes in the program and it was not nearly as bad now. Sinai's numbers were about the same as NYEE, but the reputation of the program has always seemed to lag behind the other programs in Manhattan. Having Dr. Tsai should be helpful.

Sorry to hijack thread. This has also been discussed elsewhere: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/best-nyc-programs-for-ophtho.835148/

 

[ophtho838]

NYEE gave a handout with surgical #s at their interview. I recall the numbers were actually better than I expected (slightly below natl avg, which is saying a lot in NYC). I'm curious as to why people say it's malignant.
I thought NYU had pretty volume as well because they have several hospitals to pull from, though I didn't see any hard numbers. Didn't interview at Cornell/Columbia, but I got the impression the volume was on the lower end (though they only need to satisfy 3 residents/year).

I think numbers can get overrated on trail. Phaco numbers at most places are in the mid-100s, with a small handful giving you 200+ (no harm going to one of these places), and probably a smaller handful giving you <120 (be more cautious about these)

 

[DrZeke]

I think numbers can get overrated on trail. Phaco numbers at most places are in the mid-100s, with a small handful giving you 200+ (no harm going to one of these places), and probably a smaller handful giving you <120 (be more cautious about these)

I was impressed by programs providing numbers for procedures other than phacos. I urge future applicants to pay attention to this. Pathology and patient population are also important when considering a program - someone mentioned this earlier.

 

[Member0.000001]

Hi,
Could some of you who are already Ophtho residents shed some light on the impact of having several fellows in the same institution? Do any of you feel that they are taking away some of the volume and most interesting cases? What is your experience on having multiple fellows at the same institution? Overall good or bad or no impact at all?

 

[Hamachi]

Did you interview at GW or hear much about it? Do you agree Georgetown was probably the best program in DC?

Is Georgetown the best? I interviewed at both. GW residents match incredibly well in comparison to Georgetown. When considering whether a program is the best, remember all of your mentors who advise you to go with your gut feeling.

 

[DrZeke]

Hi,
Could some of you who are already Ophtho residents shed some light on the impact of having several fellows in the same institution? Do any of you feel that they are taking away some of the volume and most interesting cases? What is your experience on having multiple fellows at the same institution? Overall good or bad or no impact at all?

This is highly program dependent. You need to talk to the residents at the program of interest.

 

[JayZBlue]

This is highly program dependent. You need to talk to the residents at the program of interest.

I agree, it depends on the program. But remember that if there are fellows, there are usually strong faculty in that subspecialty, which will help tremendously when/if you are applying for fellowship.

 

[Dusn]

Georgetown sees the most pathology out of the DC programs.