Yet another "do I have a chance" thread

[mitoman]

Hey everyone, sorry, I know these type of threads get really old but I really do appreciate your input as I don't really know anyone else to ask. Here's my situation:

-IMG graduated from non-English speaking school in 2001.
-Took steps I, II, and III and barely passed all 3 (184, 197, 194).
-Since 2003 I have been in U.S. doing basic science reseach and have accumulated 1 1st author pub, about 6 non-first author pub, and ~7 posters at national meetings. None of this was in path, it was mitochondrial bioenergetics etc.

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

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[KeratinPearls]

Hey everyone, sorry, I know these type of threads get really old but I really do appreciate your input as I don't really know anyone else to ask. Here's my situation:

-IMG graduated from non-English speaking school in 2001.
-Took steps I, II, and III and barely passed all 3 (184, 197, 194).
-Since 2003 I have been in U.S. doing basic science reseach and have accumulated 1 1st author pub, about 6 non-first author pub, and ~7 posters at national meetings. None of this was in path, it was mitochondrial bioenergetics etc.

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

I am going to be brutally honest:

I would recommend you to get letters of recommendation from pathologists in the US. You need to do a rotation in pathology. You can call programs up and ask them if they will let you do a rotation. I think they may only offer an observership which isn't going to help you. You need to do an actual rotation in pathology and obtain a letter of recommendation from the pathologist. You might be able to do a rotation with a pathologist in private practice or in a community hospital, but if you don't know any personally, that might be difficult to do. You definitely need strong letters of recommendation from US pathologists in order to hedge those low board scores. I recommend all three of your letters be from US pathologists. Forget getting a letter from a clinician. You need to demonstrate a sincere interest in pathology and a letter from a pediatrician saying how well you worked with children will get you nowhere.

Research in mitochondrial bioenergetics will get you nowhere in terms of getting into a path residency. Since you have low board scores, your chances of getting into a path residency are limited to community hospitals. Since community programs aren't research-oriented, pathology research will not make much of an impact for your application. It will only demonstrate that you have a genuine interest in pathology. Programs will wonder why you are choosing pathology considering your research in mitochondrial bioenergetics. Although it is scientific research you are working on, and since many medical students who are scientifically-oriented tend to go into pathology, "mitochondrial bioenergetics" is a little out there. Research may open some doors for you. If you do research with the chair or PD of a pathology program, you can ask them if you could do a month of rotation (depending if they like you/you do a good job).

Pathology is getting competitive and University programs are getting well qualified US and FMG applicants. You need to apply to all community programs across the country and hope you get an interview.

What pathology-related experience do you have? If you do get an interview, you have to be able to sincerely demonstrate a genuine interest in pathology.

On the brighter side, at least you passed Step 3. Are you ECFMG certified? You definitely need to be ECFMG certified to maximize the number of interviews.

I am wondering why you decided to do research in mitochondrial bioenergetics?

 

[gbwillner]

I am going to be brutally honest:


Research in mitochondrial bioenergetics will get you nowhere in terms of getting into a path residency. Since you have low board scores, your chances of getting into a path residency are limited to community hospitals. Since community programs aren't research-oriented, pathology research will not make much of an impact for your application. It will only demonstrate that you have a genuine interest in pathology. Programs will wonder why you are choosing pathology considering your research in mitochondrial bioenergetics. Although it is scientific research you are working on, and since many medical students who are scientifically-oriented tend to go into pathology, "mitochondrial bioenergetics" is a little out there. Research may open some doors for you. If you do research with the chair or PD of a pathology program, you can ask them if you could do a month of rotation (depending if they like you/you do a good job).

I'm going to go ahead and disagree on this one. While everything you say here makes sense, the fact of the matter is that FMGs still had a pretty reasonable time getting path residencies this year. I doubt many of them had any path experience, except for those who are already pathologists elsewhere and are bucking the system (I think they are a minority). I personally know a few people who matched into path at GREAT places this year, were FMGs, and had ZERO path experience OR LORs from pathologists. The most pertinent question to the OP is... DO you have a PhD? Because if you do you will get a interviews somewhere, and probably somewhere good. The second question is... how well do you speak English? If you can do both, you will likely get in somewhere- likely in a major research institution who will bank on you doing research in the department. that means you should really boost up your research work, and your LORs should reflect that.

While your USMLE scores suck hard, many places will still look at you anyway, IMHO. Sometimes there is a cut-off for step 1, and it's usually around 200...

Now, if you have neither a PhD nor communication skills, you will have a very hard time getting in. Why do you want to go into path anyway?

 

[Tiki]

Having a medical school graduation date of 2001 may hurt the OP, as some places have 5 year cutoffs.

 

[exPCM]

Hey everyone, sorry, I know these type of threads get really old but I really do appreciate your input as I don't really know anyone else to ask. Here's my situation:

-IMG graduated from non-English speaking school in 2001.
-Took steps I, II, and III and barely passed all 3 (184, 197, 194).
-Since 2003 I have been in U.S. doing basic science reseach and have accumulated 1 1st author pub, about 6 non-first author pub, and ~7 posters at national meetings. None of this was in path, it was mitochondrial bioenergetics etc.

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

I have seen people with similar USMLE numbers get into pathology residencies. So strictly from a numbers standpoint you do have a chance. I think that rotating with a pathologist is a fine idea. It is very important for a pathologist to have excellent communication skills. Are you able to speak in English as well as you write in English?

 

[pathstudent]

You probably don't stand a chance of even getting considered at a "top 5" program (BWH, UCSF, Penn, Univ of Wash, JHU), but 40% of spots go to FMGs so you got hope. Plus if you are willing to say you are hell bent on being an academic researcher, you will likely get a lot more play as programs are desperate for researchers.

 

[raspberry009]

I would love to bust out my violin.

Sure your scores are below average and you’re an IMG. But honestly, will you not apply if people tell you that you don’t have a chance?? Apply anyway! You definitely will not get accepted if you don’t apply. Sure it’s a risk, but go for it anyway. I’m so happy my close friend matched and she failed her step 2!! Not only that, she got into her top choice!!

Just go for it. What do you have to loose?

 

[yaah]

I don't think anyone can give you a realistic estimate of your chances only knowing some things about you. You posted a lot, and what you did post suggests you will have difficulty, but how much is uncertain. Your message was written in a way that suggests english is not a terrible problem for you (not many non-americans know the term "beef up.")

But I agree with the above you need to get US pathology experience, whether that is an observership or research with a pathologist or whatever. That will open more doors for you.

 

[Nilf]

Hey everyone, sorry, I know these type of threads get really old but I really do appreciate your input as I don't really know anyone else to ask. Here's my situation:

-IMG graduated from non-English speaking school in 2001.
-Took steps I, II, and III and barely passed all 3 (184, 197, 194).
-Since 2003 I have been in U.S. doing basic science reseach and have accumulated 1 1st author pub, about 6 non-first author pub, and ~7 posters at national meetings. None of this was in path, it was mitochondrial bioenergetics etc.

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

c'mon guys... I think you're being too rough on this guy, because your perspective is skewed by the fact that most of you are from top programs.

IMO any person who breathes, has MD after his name and passed the boards can match in pathology.

 

[docbiohazard]

I think you've been given good info from both sides here. Also, as someone who didn't look like the "best" med school applicant, I tend to pull for the motivated underdog. If you want some sound data, you can look at the NRMP's "Charting Outcomes from the Match 2007" [the 2008 version isn't out yet] ... but it gives you the characteristics, in terms of Step 1, Step 2, publications, etc, of US and "Independent Applicants" and their performance in the Match in 2007.

Check out the data there... your step scores for 1 and 2 are below the 25th percentile, but you took and passed step 3, so that has to be a bonus (no worries for a program that you won't pass it). It also seems that about half the "independent applicants" match and half don't, and that it's irrespective of number of publications or research experiences (means aren't significantly different). The other trend is that the more ranks you have, the more likely you are to successful match, so the more interviews you can get the better.

Like other posters have said, I think your best bet is to try to build connections / relationships with American pathologists. If the NRMP data indicates anything, it's that more research/publications won't be much help, more than likely.

Good luck
BH

 

[mitoman]

I think you've been given good info from both sides here. Also, as someone who didn't look like the "best" med school applicant, I tend to pull for the motivated underdog. If you want some sound data, you can look at the NRMP's "Charting Outcomes from the Match 2007" [the 2008 version isn't out yet] ... but it gives you the characteristics, in terms of Step 1, Step 2, publications, etc, of US and "Independent Applicants" and their performance in the Match in 2007.

Check out the data there... your step scores for 1 and 2 are below the 25th percentile, but you took and passed step 3, so that has to be a bonus (no worries for a program that you won't pass it). It also seems that about half the "independent applicants" match and half don't, and that it's irrespective of number of publications or research experiences (means aren't significantly different). The other trend is that the more ranks you have, the more likely you are to successful match, so the more interviews you can get the better.

Like other posters have said, I think your best bet is to try to build connections / relationships with American pathologists. If the NRMP data indicates anything, it's that more research/publications won't be much help, more than likely.

Good luck
BH

Thanks for all your help guys. I won't lie, it's not like I have a lifelong dream to be a pathologist and I don't know much about it but I am looking into it because I think it might be interesting and I have heard I might have a chance to get in. That being said, I do enjoy analytical work and all kinds of research, I enjoyed path in med school, and I don't really have a burning desire to see lots of patients every day, so I think it would be a good field for me.

I chose mitochondria simply because I had someone in this lab that wanted to help me out and give me a job. I do not have a PhD but my English and communication skills are good.

 

[JPR22]

I know of IMGs in similar situations who have gotten into programs after making donations to the program.

 

[Pathrough]

hi, I am an IMG and went through the process and finally got one position. My scores are better (both over 90s), lots of publications. However, I felt so depressed in the interview season. I only got 2 IVs. I thought I might get into Havard or JHKs since I have so many publications and quite good scores. So do not think that research will get you a position in Path, work on connections which is the only way you can get Ivs. Otherwise you will have trouble to get any Ivs even the worst programs, which also can get hundreds of applicants.

 

[yeasterbunny]

I know some anesthesiology people at my school who do a lot of mitochondrial studies. Anesthesia is certainly tough to get into but if you have extensive research in something related you may want to give it a try.

 

[gbwillner]

Thanks for all your help guys. I won't lie, it's not like I have a lifelong dream to be a pathologist and I don't know much about it but I am looking into it because I think it might be interesting and I have heard I might have a chance to get in. That being said, I do enjoy analytical work and all kinds of research, I enjoyed path in med school, and I don't really have a burning desire to see lots of patients every day, so I think it would be a good field for me.

I chose mitochondria simply because I had someone in this lab that wanted to help me out and give me a job. I do not have a PhD but my English and communication skills are good.

Perhaps you should look into internal medicine or Family medicine. Both will be easier for you to match into than Path.

 

[pathdoc68]

c'mon guys...
IMO any person who breathes, has MD after his name and passed the boards can match in pathology.

Very funny, but very true

 

[Nilf]

c'mon guys... I think you're being too rough on this guy, because your perspective is skewed by the fact that most of you are from top programs.

IMO any person who breathes, has MD after his name and passed the boards can match in pathology.

ooops... instead of 'boards', I meant Step I-II, of course.

To the OP: do not worry, apply and I'll see you in next 1-2 years at USCAP. I am betting diamonds against pistachio nuts that you will match in pathology.

 

[ResDame]

Thanks for all your help guys. I won't lie, it's not like I have a lifelong dream to be a pathologist and I don't know much about it but I am looking into it because I think it might be interesting and I have heard I might have a chance to get in. That being said, I do enjoy analytical work and all kinds of research, I enjoyed path in med school, and I don't really have a burning desire to see lots of patients every day, so I think it would be a good field for me.

Ouch! If that's your reason you'll be spotted a mile away.

 

[mcfaddens]

You should probably save your time and money and stay in research. Day to day path is nothing like the med school course and you will have to be in constant communication with those who you provide service to in residency. Dont do something you think you might be interested in. Your gonna kill yourself in the process. You could do something shorter like public health or fam med or GP (im not even sure that exists still) and then get a research gig somewhere. Good luck

 

[Rosenthal]

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

Pathology does not have a prelim year. If you think Path is an easy speciatly and want to use it as a back up, your chance is probably not that great. IM, FM Peds and psychiatry may all be good choices for you.

On the other hand, if you can show your commitment to Pathology, get some clinical experience and a few good letters from US pathologists, you will have a good chance. If your local department doesn't offer a formal rotation for foreign grads, you can always just go to their conferences. Once you get to know people, you will surely find someone willing to let you sit with them at the microscope. At least you'll get a better idea whether you'll like this kind of work or not. If you do well, you will probably get to see more stuff, and get some good letters. If you still decide to apply, you should apply broadly due to your low scores.

 

[Rosenthal]

Any chance at all? If not, what would you recommend I do to beef up my app? I think perhaps my biggest weakness is my lack of clinical experience in the US which has made it hard for me even to get a prelim year. Do you think local pathologists would be willing to let me rotate through even though I'm not a student? I do work for the med school.

Thanks in advance.

Some programs use USMLE scores as a screening method. Contact programs before you apply to make sure your application will be looked at.

 

[Arctic Char]

hi, I am an IMG and went through the process and finally got one position. My scores are better (both over 90s), lots of publications. However, I felt so depressed in the interview season. I only got 2 IVs. I thought I might get into Havard or JHKs since I have so many publications and quite good scores. So do not think that research will get you a position in Path, work on connections which is the only way you can get Ivs. Otherwise you will have trouble to get any Ivs even the worst programs, which also can get hundreds of applicants.

so you finished med school in 6 months? not bad. (Pre-Med, joined october 2007 . . . ?) just bustin' your chops, take no offense

 

[Rosenthal]

so you finished med school in 6 months? not bad. (Pre-Med, joined october 2007 . . . ?) just bustin' your chops, take no offense

Dude. What are you talking about?

 

[Arctic Char]

Dude. What are you talking about?

pathrough says he/she is in a path residency. however, their screename status says "Pre-medical" with an SDN join date of october 2007. if they were indeed pre-med when he/she joined, and they are in fact in residency, that would suggest that med school was a pretty short ride . . .

 

[KeratinPearls]

hi, I am an IMG and went through the process and finally got one position. My scores are better (both over 90s), lots of publications. However, I felt so depressed in the interview season. I only got 2 IVs. I thought I might get into Havard or JHKs since I have so many publications and quite good scores. So do not think that research will get you a position in Path, work on connections which is the only way you can get Ivs. Otherwise you will have trouble to get any Ivs even the worst programs, which also can get hundreds of applicants.

This is true. I know of IMGs who have few interviews despite applying to many programs. The worst programs get applications from those with 99/99 board scores.

Less competitive path programs will invite 30-40 applicants to interview. They receive hundred+ applications.

Your scores are set in stone. The only thing you can do here on out is to get strong letters of recommendation and get path-related experience. PDs don't want to recruit someone who doesn't know what they are getting into...in other words, they'd rather not lose a resident during the year because "pathology wasn't for him/her."

Since you are years from graduation, your chances of getting in FP and IM are getting slimmer and slimmer with each passing year. That is a big reason why you may have trouble getting into FP and IM programs. Programs will not even look at your application if you are more than X number of years from graduation.

Path is different because you aren't expected to know anything going into residency. Maybe just the basics, but it's not like IM or FP, where you should know how to approach common medical conditions.

If you sincerely want to do Path the rest of your life, get some path experience and letters of rec.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Perhaps you should look into internal medicine or Family medicine. Both will be easier for you to match into than Path.

As stated above...not entirely true. The OP graduated in 2001. That means he/she is out of school for 7 years. I've heard of programs having a cutoff of 5 years. It's not as easy as you think, although definitely possible.

 

[mitoman]

... Dont do something you think you might be interested in....

Of course, this goes without saying. Hopefully I will get a better idea of how well I like it when I do some rotations.

Not to change the subject, but what is it that is most appealing about the field to you all?

 

[mcfaddens]

Of course, this goes without saying. Hopefully I will get a better idea of how well I like it when I do some rotations.

Not to change the subject, but what is it that is most appealing about the field to you all?

For me it is the pure challenge of a good case (even the mundane ones are fun to look at). You get to fill in the blanks that the clinical folks could'nt do and get to inform others of things they might not have known or confirm suspicion. Also the way to communicate your findings is key. You kind of in a way get to play scientist, psych, surgeon, lawyer, judge and business man all in one nice package. Its not for everyone though, can be overwhelming with the sheer ammount of information you have to learn (if you want to be good that is)

 

[mitoman]

I know some anesthesiology people at my school who do a lot of mitochondrial studies. Anesthesia is certainly tough to get into but if you have extensive research in something related you may want to give it a try.

Oh yeah, I meant to say, my research here is with the anesthesia department. I applied this year but did not get in.

 

[Pathrough]

pathrough says he/she is in a path residency. however, their screename status says "Pre-medical" with an SDN join date of october 2007. if they were indeed pre-med when he/she joined, and they are in fact in residency, that would suggest that med school was a pretty short ride . . .

You will be a very good pathologist since you are so carefull. I don't even know that I am a 'Pre-medical' and when I join in this forum.