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York vs Kalamazoo?
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This is a tangential answer, but I would also consider which program you think you want to go to more as a resident. I know that's extremely difficult to answer right now, but you might have something of an inkling based solely on reputation and/or geography.
My (again tangential) anecdotal evidence for you is: I turned down an away at Denver health after being accepted so that I could do an away at a place I thought I would like more. Did not get an interview from Denver during interview season, so maybe they blackballed me. I also turned down another away offer at SUNY Downstate. I did get an interview offer there, so this blackballing thing certainly isn't universal if it even exists. I wound up matching at the place I did my away which was the goal, so yay there.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but I thought it might be something for you to consider.
My (again tangential) anecdotal evidence for you is: I turned down an away at Denver health after being accepted so that I could do an away at a place I thought I would like more. Did not get an interview from Denver during interview season, so maybe they blackballed me. I also turned down another away offer at SUNY Downstate. I did get an interview offer there, so this blackballing thing certainly isn't universal if it even exists. I wound up matching at the place I did my away which was the goal, so yay there.
I know this doesn't answer your question, but I thought it might be something for you to consider.
Kalamazoo still interviewed me even though I dropped my rotation there. The program is big into EMS (like really big into it) so if that's what you're looking for and/or you like that location, then I'd do that rotation. I know nothing about the others
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I know York is an excellent experience. I interviewed there and it was completely obvious that they get a *much* better education than their rathe rural and not-near-any-major-facilities location would suggest. BUT, Id think if you just want a SLOE out of it, you may do better at kalamazoo. I dont have a factual basis for this thought, but I assume kalamazoo's opinion of you carries more weight than York's.
Now with that said, I've been to K-Zoo (the city, not the EM program) and even though it is somewhat of a city, I'd rather BE at York (and I'm a city guy) for that program than be at K-Zoo (even though I only know the city, not the program). So its sort of hard. I think York's SLOE would be worthwhile, but KZoos would be more worthwhile. But neither is a slam-dunk place for a SLOE, and York is a place that definitely thinks well of those who rotate with them.
Plus York is a common landing spot for DOs in the ACGME match, so its always a plus to be at a program that likes your degree.
Now with that said, I've been to K-Zoo (the city, not the EM program) and even though it is somewhat of a city, I'd rather BE at York (and I'm a city guy) for that program than be at K-Zoo (even though I only know the city, not the program). So its sort of hard. I think York's SLOE would be worthwhile, but KZoos would be more worthwhile. But neither is a slam-dunk place for a SLOE, and York is a place that definitely thinks well of those who rotate with them.
Plus York is a common landing spot for DOs in the ACGME match, so its always a plus to be at a program that likes your degree.
As someone who rotated at both, go to W Mich. Better month, better (and MUCH faster SLOE... like days after the rotation) and if Dr. Overton still writes the letter it carries a lot more name recognition. York is a good month and whoever writes your letter there will write a good one and you'll learn a lot but just overall a better experience, both learning and program wise, at W Mich. York is definitely not bad and honestly of the scenarios you described I'd dump one of the other rotations you mentioned and do both York and W Mich over the others.
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I know nothing of either program, but I like saying Kalamazoo.
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Lol.
I was jealous my roommate interviewed there. I wanted him to bring back something with their name on it for me.
That being said - I didn't even apply anywhere out of the southeast so it wasn't going to happen without his help
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We are happy to have you GTP!!! haha. kalamazoo kalamazoo kalamazoo kalamazoo
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He is leaving. He's supposed to still be super involved in the residency but he's gonna be helping with the new medical school so he's stepping down. I think one of the APDs is becoming the new PD
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Interesting, wonder what this means for the future of the program.
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We were basically told that he is still going to be VERY VERY involved. He said to me "this program is my baby," I wont be gone. So yeah, maybe as "the figurehead" of the program hell be gone, but hes still going to be completely involved. So dont worry about it guys.
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What about Kalamazoo vs Lehigh? Can only pick one due to the antics of the VSAS gods that be (electives offered at same time). Both seem to be good programs. Which would you guys pick? Plan to do both matches but don't have any DO or dual rotations set up, hence why Lehigh might be a better choice.
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Having rotated at both Lehigh and Kalamazoo I would say in my experience Kalamazoo >> Lehigh. Just my experience though. Lehigh had us do some sim cases etc. but I much preferred my Kalamazoo rotation and during interviews my SLOE from Kalamazoo was always mentioned as being strong but never heard a word regarding my SLOE fork Lehigh. Also had some friends that rotated at Lehigh who were questioned on their SLOE and one was even asked why it had grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors. Anyways that's my 2 cents and only one opinion.
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Thanks!
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My N=1 experience with LVH wasnt very positive. People there seemed very very pretentious. I know im not the only person who felt this way, as a bunch of people I met along the trail said this about LVH. The enriched rotation was full of good stuff, but also a lot of busywork that had very little value in my opinion. At the end of the rotation, the rotation director wrote a very nice eval for me, that was more or less like a SLOE. But he closed the LOR (after saying all this really nice stuff) with "student was asked on multiple occasions to wear his white coat" "student showed up late to one shift due to snow." Like WTF....that stuff really rubbed me the wrong way. I know a lot of people really like LVH though and its a good program....just behind honest about my experiences.
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The snow comment is bogus, but, did they have to ask you more than once? If they did, whomever sees the letter has to wonder if you are either inattentive, or oppositional. Remember, programs are looking for a reason to reject you. That one doesn't sound too out of line.
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Yep. That's that region for you. Born/raised not far, and had family all around that area. The Lehigh attitude is "we're Ivy-league, but we're too cool for Ivy-league." Attitude is pretty pervasive throughout that region... they think they're the NYC uppity-crowd.
West Pennsylvania FTW.
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I *am* NYC uppity crowd and even I know if the weather goes to ****e, expect residents to make it when they can. That's silly.
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If you feel the need to mention in a letter of eval that a student was once late, due to snow, a circumstance beyond their control... then it says something about you.
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Gonna go and take this one step further.
To Espana: Its eastern PA, not the "upper east side" that we're talking about, here. When the snow comes down and your car doesn't start... you don't just walk down to the subway station and get into "downtown". I remember (as a youth) calling into work because "I cannot get my car door open; they're frozen shut." It was a situation which was only remedied by carrying boiling water outside (in the pot) and pouring it down the door-cracks.
*Done*;
Now, to the general crowd:
Everyone cried and whined and (lolz) sued over the storms that hit NYC over the past year-or-so. I wrote a letter to NYC after hearing the nonsense that came out of there...
...
Dear NYC,
"Here's a shovel, now go buy some salt... its gonna be a bit. Try not to sue anyone on your way out of your driveway. Also, when you think that you've had enough... talk to Wisconsin/Minnesota."
Signed, sincerely,
- Everyone west of the Delaware Water Gap.
...
Now, continuing my hate-parade on eastern PA... I remember going to undergrad in PA. There was a very clear demarcation in mindset between those "west of State College" and those "east." ... it broke down to a very clear socio-economic gradient. The "Old Money" eastern children (who, had never actually worked a day in their lives) clustered together, and had a clear distaste for anyone who... say.. knew how to change a tire... navigate a snowy road... catch a fish... whatever. I remember going to eleventeen parties wherever and asking *random girl* - "Hey... where are you from?"
"Philadelphia."
"Okay, whereabouts?"
"Allentown. (1+ hour from PHI, for the record) Near there. Bethlehem, but not quite."
"K.Thx.Bye."
By that point, I was generally saying to myself": "Dude, you should have seen this across the room from her 200+ dollar boots and her general inability to spell "C-A-T"... but hey, take a pass... you've been drinking. She said she was a "physiology" major... but that really just means "physical therapy and sports and lolz." anyways."
Yep.... that's Eastern PA in a nutshell for yah... all of the drama, all of the "Lolz, NYC! xdhxhxdd!" nonsense... none of the practicality of the rest of the region.
To Espana: Its eastern PA, not the "upper east side" that we're talking about, here. When the snow comes down and your car doesn't start... you don't just walk down to the subway station and get into "downtown". I remember (as a youth) calling into work because "I cannot get my car door open; they're frozen shut." It was a situation which was only remedied by carrying boiling water outside (in the pot) and pouring it down the door-cracks.
*Done*;
Now, to the general crowd:
Everyone cried and whined and (lolz) sued over the storms that hit NYC over the past year-or-so. I wrote a letter to NYC after hearing the nonsense that came out of there...
...
Dear NYC,
"Here's a shovel, now go buy some salt... its gonna be a bit. Try not to sue anyone on your way out of your driveway. Also, when you think that you've had enough... talk to Wisconsin/Minnesota."
Signed, sincerely,
- Everyone west of the Delaware Water Gap.
...
Now, continuing my hate-parade on eastern PA... I remember going to undergrad in PA. There was a very clear demarcation in mindset between those "west of State College" and those "east." ... it broke down to a very clear socio-economic gradient. The "Old Money" eastern children (who, had never actually worked a day in their lives) clustered together, and had a clear distaste for anyone who... say.. knew how to change a tire... navigate a snowy road... catch a fish... whatever. I remember going to eleventeen parties wherever and asking *random girl* - "Hey... where are you from?"
"Philadelphia."
"Okay, whereabouts?"
"Allentown. (1+ hour from PHI, for the record) Near there. Bethlehem, but not quite."
"K.Thx.Bye."
By that point, I was generally saying to myself": "Dude, you should have seen this across the room from her 200+ dollar boots and her general inability to spell "C-A-T"... but hey, take a pass... you've been drinking. She said she was a "physiology" major... but that really just means "physical therapy and sports and lolz." anyways."
Yep.... that's Eastern PA in a nutshell for yah... all of the drama, all of the "Lolz, NYC! xdhxhxdd!" nonsense... none of the practicality of the rest of the region.
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Pretty sure DocEspana was agreeing on cutting people slack when there is bad weather...
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Haha. Yea I was. Was saying even the uptight new york people with the magic of underground public transport realize that when the inclement weather comes a resident will make it in "when they can" and its not their job to overcome nature to preserve perfect punctuality.
Plus I'm originally from lake effect region of upstate NY. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Snow fall inches per hour that sound impossible.
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I was asked ONE time, and after that wore the coat. It is what it is. I didnt match there, and ended up somewhere I am quite happy with! Just seemed rather petty to write all this "student is at intern level blah blah" stuff and then close the LOR with that. It is what it is.
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I am a PCOM soon to be grad and I wholehartedly agree with you. I did a few rotations with LVHN and although a great hospital with really nice facilities, I really couldnt see myself training up there. I am a pretty relaxed and easy going guy, who aspires to be a community EM doc in the trenches. I LOVE backpacking/hunting/shooting the Lehigh Valley/Del Water Gap region and I will certainly miss it...but the wifey and I are excited to explore a new part of the country we more than likely never would have seen!
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Dont know if you were talking about me here, but I too was born and raised in Albany/Syracuse and went to undergrad in CNY as well. I have a Subie WRX with snowtires on it and will drive in conditions that would amaze most people. But when I am ripped on for showing up literally 15 minutes late in a blizzard when commuting 45 mins from Philly.....and then it ends up in a LOR that really rubs me the wrong way. LVH has awesome facilities and gets awesome cases, and I am sure its a sick place to train...I just personally didnt see myself loving working there.
I showed up for my UBuffalo EM interview in a blizzard when all of the other applicants cancelled except for me and 2 other people.....and then drove back to Albany thru the south towns and took Rt 20 east all the way to Albany because the thruway was closed. So snow definitely never stops me unless it physically stops ol rexy!
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I love it! I've experienced the same thing. Im usually the one showing up early mid-snow storm becauseI know how to prepare. But I've never seen anyone in any of my EM rotations (I did EM exclusively near NYC, some in the city some in the suburbs) get ripped for being late because of snow. They get it here that snow blows. I'd almost think they'd be less understanding in the snowbelt (where you have to learn eventually) than in NYC. So if eastern PA is going to make believe they are NYC they need to 1) relocate someone with a better sandwich option than Wawa and 2) stop being more anal than us about stuff. We realize that NYC is anal about being 'the best', but even we know that inclement weather means everyone works together to cover for everyone else because its better to be late and safe then coming in as a MVC trauma.
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I'm a bit slow in replying in regards to the comments about Kalamazoo's PD stepping down but wanted to chime in. It really won't change much, I don't think. People make it sound like he's "leaving" to go to the new medical school, but that's really a bit of a stretch. He is (and will continue to be) the Chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine. The department consists of 6 full time faculty members, plus 7-8 core faculty members (docs who are primarily employed at one of the two hospitals but devote a significant amount of time to resident education. He will continue to work shifts in the ED and I suspect his name will still be on med student SLOE's. The EM department faculty are heavily involved in the new med school (as in three EM faculty are Deans of some sort) and have significant input into the development of the curriculum.
