Young Applicants

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I was talking to a medical student and he's 27. A 3rd year or 4th yr, I dont remember. But he was telling me that there is no need to rush into medical school. It will always be there. Also he said that patients respect and listen to a doctor thats a little older/mature. They can bring with them past experiences as opposed to sumone [sic] thats just in their early 20's.

That's pretty much the advise most well-into-their-practice docs have given me. That and, "don't do it because it isn't as glamorous as you think, you idealistic fool." 😉

As to the timing, I think it's all about when you feel ready or compelled to jump in. After careful reflection, if now's the time, then do it, otherwise, do it later. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.
 
I don't think that this is true. For example, last year at my school 106/119 seniors were accepted, whereas 104/144 non-trads were accepted (http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/appendix/). It is common knowledge that the pre-med advisor essentially mandates that certain weaker applicants take a few years off to build their application.

Of course there are tons of great applicants that take a year or 2 or 10 off, but I disagree with your assertion that, on the average, people who take time off have a more successful application.

anecdotal evidence..
 
because they want to?

Sure, but then don't feed me the line that "oh it makes me special." You wanted the year off, you got it, end of story. No real difference.

And this explains why no one 'regrets' the year off; if you wanted the year off you took it, and unless you are incapable of making simple choices or something went horribly wrong, you won't regret it since it makes no difference on your app.
 
Sure, but then don't feed me the line that "oh it makes me special." You wanted the year off, you got it, end of story. No real difference.

And this explains why no one 'regrets' the year off; if you wanted the year off you took it, and unless you are incapable of making simple choices or something went horribly wrong, you won't regret it since it makes no difference on your app.

Wrong. I already showed numeric evidence that when adjusting for similar GPA and MCAT people who take a year off are more successful applicants. Whether that comes from maturity, experience, etc. is another discussion but it is a fact that they are more successful at getting into medical school.

But you're right - its a choice. But if someone is waivering and can't make up their mind - knowing that waiting a year usually improves ones desirability as a medical school applicant might help push them to one side of the other.
 
Wrong. I already showed numeric evidence that when adjusting for similar GPA and MCAT people who take a year off are more successful applicants. Whether that comes from maturity, experience, etc. is another discussion but it is a fact that they are more successful at getting into medical school.
No, correlation does not prove causation. They might have better chances of getting in because they were stronger applicants to start with. (Personality, pre-year-off-EC's, things like that).

It may be another discussion, but it would be wrong to assume that taking a year off will improve your application based on the numbers you describe (I haven't seen them).

Which brings me to...
But if someone is waivering and can't make up their mind - knowing that waiting a year usually improves ones desirability as a medical school applicant might help push them to one side of the other.
Right for the wrong reasons. It may not make you stronger, but it will give you more time to make the decision.

And again, I'm not saying it won't make you a stronger applicant to take a year off. I'm saying there's no sweeping rule on this, and that you shouldn't assume taking a year off is 'right' or 'wrong'. Same with applying out of undergrad.

Oh and I hate it when people get too excited with this and start saying they're 'better' than someone else because, look, they're special. They worked in construction for a year, or whatever. 👎
 
Oh and I hate it when people get too excited with this and start saying they're 'better' than someone else because, look, they're special. They worked in construction for a year, or whatever. 👎

I never said I was special. I'm not - I'm workign at a desk job and I didn't take a year off to strengthen anything - I did it because I couldn't afford to apply while in school.

But at least for students from UC Berkeley, people who took a year off have higher success rates. Maybe people who tend to take a year off tend to have better personalities and better ECs than people who don't - I don't know! (but that does sound rather amusing) But the numbers are there:

http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/MedStats.stm

I still say because of age and maturity reasons it makes the vast majority of applicants stronger. And I didn't say people who were waivering on whether they wanted to be a doctor - a lot of people who take a year off aren't waivering at all. I meant people waivering as to whether to take a year off or not. Knowing that in general numbers are higher might encourage them to go ahead and take that year off.
 
I never said I was special. ...
But at least for students from UC Berkeley, people who took a year off have higher success rates. Maybe people who tend to take a year off tend to have better personalities and better ECs than people who don't - I don't know! (but that does sound rather amusing) But the numbers are there:

http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/MedStats.stm

Oh would you stop with the Berkeley numbers. They are confounded - I don't think we're going to find definitive statistical evidence either way. And as far as this maturity thing goes, of course medical schools look for more mature applicants, that's why they have interviews and why 19 y.o. applicants have a more difficult time getting into schools. But have you "older" folks even entertained the idea that maturity is not solely based on age, or that it varies with different people? Haven't you met someone 2 years (or heck, 20) years older than you who lacks maturity?

I don't know why you non-traditional applicants (It's called non-trad for a reason) are so vehemently defending your decisions, perhaps showing a sign of regret because there's no turning back? I am applying now, traditionally, and have been fairly succesfull in the process so far. Luckily, I will have the luxury of either choosing to go straight in or perhaps be granted a deferral. I plan to go straight in, but who knows, may change my mind come the end of the year. I'm keeping my options open, as well as my mind to other possibilities. Now that's the true sign of maturity I'm not seeing in the older, "maturer" applicants.
 
It is just plain ignorant to say that the reason that people take time off is bc they couldn't get in the first time. Grow up. There are plenty of people who take time off who would have whipped up the traditional students in the application process in terms of stats/GPA/MCAT etc. They just chose a different route in life. Not better/not worse. I know it may be hard to understand, but not everybody is completely consumed with money, power, prestige, career, etc. I had plenty of reasons for not applying out of undergrad and not one of which were my stats. Maybe it was wanting a family or the thought of having other people's lives in my hands, but it wasn't numbers.

I'm not sure if you were directing this at me or other people, or both, but I wanted to clear up my position. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a year off if that's what you want to do. I don't think there's anything wrong with just applying straight like I am. I went through a phase a couple of months ago thinking that no one would accept me because I was only spending 3 years in college. I've learned more about the process now and think I'll be a decently strong applicant. I may not be, and that's fine.

But not all traditional students are applying right out of college (or rather, in their senior year of college) because they want the prestige, power, or money that comes with being a doctor. Some of us (perhaps even most, or many) just think it the next logical step in becoming a doctor. We want to be doctors, and don't see a need to put off applying for a year or two.
 
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I don't know why you non-traditional applicants (It's called non-trad for a reason) are so vehemently defending your decisions, perhaps showing a sign of regret because there's no turning back?
HumbleMD, I'm sorry if you're feeling victimized here, but I'm not reading any vehemency on the thread.

Seriously, if anyone wants to go straight through to medical school, good for them. If folks want to take a year or a few to explore other things before medical school, good for them.

The whole my way or the highway thing's a bit childish. To each their own.
 
HumbleMD, I'm sorry if you're feeling victimized here, but I'm not reading any vehemency on the thread.

We might not be reading the same thread, because I'm definitely seeing hostility from 'both' sides. I think it's silly, but I do have to smile when I see obviously immature posts from the older members, because one of the reasons touted so far in each page of the thread is an increase in maturity that comes from being a non-trad. They're supposed to be above this - heck, both groups are. But there's definitely animosity here, and if you're not noticing it, I'd like to borrow your credit card number for a minute...just to see it... :laugh:
 
I work 40 hours a week in medical research. I have taken a 4 credit hour class every "semester" since I have graduated. I volunteer 4-6 hours a week in an ER, and 1 hour a week with an after school program for innercity kids. I play in enough organized sports leagues that I am on two teams during every season. Oh my god, I am such an unproductive sack! Even when I was studying for MCATs, working on a senior thesis and taking a full course load I wasn't this busy (or happy). And I still find time to make a ton of new friends and spend time with them 4 nights a week.

A gap year (or two) is what you make of it. In my case it has been incredibly enjoyable and incredibly productive. It has strengthened my app, given me real-world experiences that make me a more well-rounded person, and recharged my scholastic batteries to prepare me for med school.
Your "time off" doesn't sound very exciting at all to me, and I'd rather be in med school (which I am) than doing 40 hours a week of medical research. A LOT of people did take a year off, but the only circumstance in which I would have done that would have been to defer an acceptance. I couldn't have taken these year to galavant around the world anyways - I'm already married, and she works full-time. I do plan to go to Europe in June though. Different strokes for different folks. I think it's good for some people - a lot of people did go all over the place.
 
Wow, such compassion and understanding! Your patients are going to love that condescension.
Ah, this wouldn't be a good SDN argument without the "You're gonna be a bad doctor!" clause.

There is nothing unique about a good GPA and MCAT. This is the base standard for getting in to medical school. The usual volunteer work and ECs has to be checked off as well. I think "decent personality" is much more rare amongst applicants, but you can't really demonstrate that well until interview day.
Please. SDN has jaded you far too much. The average person applies to med school with a 27. While a 3.7/32 might look generic on SDN, it's pretty good in the real world of admissions. It just wouldn't get you into a top 10 without some other strong factors.
 
Please. SDN has jaded you far too much. The average person applies to med school with a 27. While a 3.7/32 might look generic on SDN, it's pretty good in the real world of admissions. It just wouldn't get you into a top 10 without some other strong factors.

👍 For every example quoted by a non-trad as to how trads don't have "perspective", it is equally possible to point to one where a non-trad has *lost* perspective. And FWIW, a 3.7 is significantly above the average GPA held by applicants to m.s.
 
We might not be reading the same thread, because I'm definitely seeing hostility from 'both' sides.
Sorry, I'm just not reading the hostility about the nontrad vs. trad thing. I'm just hearing the usual bickering and sniping. Maybe I'm skimming too much, but I haven't heard too many comments of "Trads are dumb and non original" or "Non-trads are lazy and rejects".

It's a rare thread on SDN that lasts 3 pages without devolving into nastiness. But unlike the AA, DO vs. MD, etc. threads, I haven't heard too much bashing of folks' approach to medical school, be it traditional or non. Maybe my skin is too thick.
 
I'm just not reading the hostility about the nontrad vs. trad thing.

It sounds like you've got one of those odd dictionaries where sniping and bickering doesn't fall under the definition of hostility. :laugh: At well. Whatever works for us all.
 
Please. SDN has jaded you far too much. The average person applies to med school with a 27. While a 3.7/32 might look generic on SDN, it's pretty good in the real world of admissions. It just wouldn't get you into a top 10 without some other strong factors.

And FWIW, a 3.7 is significantly above the average GPA held by applicants to m.s.

I don't think I'm jaded. Not sure where you're getting a 3.7/32 from, Prowler. Certainly not from me. I just mentioned that a good GPA and MCAT are not enough for your app. I've yet to meet an adcom who has disagreed with this. You want to have something more original on your app than a good GPA and MCAT. Regardless of whether you're trad/nontrad.

I agree with Rafa about 3.7 being above average for matriculants at a vast majority of medical schools. 32 is also above average for many medical schools. But I never tossed out 32 and 3.7 as being mediocre.
 
It sounds like you've got one of those odd dictionaries where sniping and bickering doesn't fall under the definition of hostility. :laugh:
I mean that I don't see folks pointing at the fact that the other is a non-trad saying, "Ha! You nontrads are lazy!" nor anyone saying "Ha! You traditionals are boring!". I'm just hearing the usual ego vs. ego thing.

But folks do seem to be getting their feelings hurt, so I'm probably missing a level here.
 
👍 For every example quoted by a non-trad as to how trads don't have "perspective", it is equally possible to point to one where a non-trad has *lost* perspective.
Wow. If non-trads are saying traditional students don't have perspective (and I don't see where they are, but no biggie), this is wrong.

Everyone has perspective. Just different ones. The 19 year old applying to medical school after early high school graduation and a three year BA has a different perspective than the 21 year old applying as he graduates has a different perspective than the 25 year old applying after three years in the work force.

Age doesn't instill you with wisdom any more than youth gives you with all the right answers.

To each their own. I've been saying it repeatedly, but apparently on deaf ears (no one in particular). I'm off...
 
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LOL - HumbleMD's avatar is hilarious. I mean I saw it before, I just never really payed any attention to it or even looked at what it was :laugh:

It's so cute 🙂
 
Ah, this wouldn't be a good SDN argument without the "You're gonna be a bad doctor!" clause.


Please. SDN has jaded you far too much. The average person applies to med school with a 27. While a 3.7/32 might look generic on SDN, it's pretty good in the real world of admissions. It just wouldn't get you into a top 10 without some other strong factors.



👍

👍

on both parts, dude. I can't stand when people tell each other that on this forum. "I don't agree with you. You're going to be a terrible doctor!"
 
LOL - HumbleMD's avatar is hilarious. I mean I saw it before, I just never really payed any attention to it or even looked at what it was :laugh:

It's so cute 🙂

??? I don't see the humor in it. It's a bird sitting of a stick.
 
this thread is becoming quite pointless... "Humble"MD will still feel personally attacked, and neither side is going to concede that the other side is possibly making good points.
 
me neither. btw, didnt your avatar used to be that gorgeous girl? if so, bring her back.

lol... wtf? no... I think you're thinking about yourmom25.
 
I know my pop culture and can't think of the what a bird on a stick is referring to.

Get your mind out of the gutter, it's just a bird on a stick. It's cute, thats all.

When I first saw it some time ago it never even registered that it was a bird, so when I actually looked at it I was like "whoa..." 😳
 
To me, the debate between taking time off is a bit analagous to the debate over whether or not to have children. Those people who have children rarely regret it, like those who take time off, but that doesn't mean taking time off is right for everyone, just like having children is not necessarily right for everyone. Okay, I know the comparison is bizarre, but I had to say it. 🙂
 
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I don't think I'm jaded. Not sure where you're getting a 3.7/32 from, Prowler. Certainly not from me. I just mentioned that a good GPA and MCAT are not enough for your app. I've yet to meet an adcom who has disagreed with this. You want to have something more original on your app than a good GPA and MCAT. Regardless of whether you're trad/nontrad.

I agree with Rafa about 3.7 being above average for matriculants at a vast majority of medical schools. 32 is also above average for many medical schools. But I never tossed out 32 and 3.7 as being mediocre.
I didn't say you said they were mediocre - I was referencing those as being the good GPA/MCAT that you said doesn't make you unique.

In fact, I'm going to make a thread about this.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=325430
 
My question to these older folks applying is, do you really want to be 35 when you officially start your career/life?

At 24 I guess I qualify as "older". I think the point I've come to realize that is missing in your post is that life doesn't begin when you start your career. While my case is a little different in that I wasn't ready to apply to med school right after college (I hadn't finished my prereqs), I've gained an immense amount of memories and experiences by spending extra time traveling, doing additional research, and other activities that I may not have as much time to complete in medical school (at least during certain clinical rotations anyway). Life doesn't start when you start your career. Instead, it's there all along to be cherished or wasted as you please.
 
I didn't say you said they were mediocre - I was referencing those as being the good GPA/MCAT that you said doesn't make you unique.
No, they're not. Where are you getting the 3.7 and 32 from? I never said this. A 3.7/32 is good for a matriculant at almost any medical school, let alone for an applicant.

Anyway, hope the new thread works out for you, but please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know where you're getting these GPAs and MCATs from, but it wasn't me.
 
i think some people in this forum are neglecting the fact that some people don't have a choice in when they have to apply. i have to apply traditionally because i want to have children early for health reasons and because my parents cannot afford to support me while i enjoy life for a year. i guess thats sad but true. also, i want to be available for my mother, father, and grandmother as they get older as well as my brother who sometimes has trouble supporting himself financially. if i dont get in this year -thats it. ill have to find another job.
 
I'm saying this from my perspective as a person who skipped the third grade with a "late" birthday. I will be 20 yrs old when I graduate. I do want to go to med school, but I also want to join the Peace Corps. Would I still consider joining the Peace Corps if I were a couple years older upon graduation? I really don't know. But I am a younger student with the option of going str8 into med school or taking a yr off, and I choose to take a yr off... not to strengthen my app or gain maturity... but because I think the Peace Corps is hella cool.
 
I think the point I've come to realize that is missing in your post is that life doesn't begin when you start your career. ... Life doesn't start when you start your career. Instead, it's there all along to be cherished or wasted as you please.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. This is really the only point I even wanted to get across. For me, I remember being 18 yrs old with the potential to graduate in three years and thinking the exact same thing, "When I get done with this or that, my life will begin." And, "Why is that 30 year old in my class. He must have f*cked up somewhere along the road in life. I'm going to be something when I'm that age." Somewhere along the way, I realized my life had already began with or without me and that those thirty year olds weren't as incompetent as I once thought. They had just chosen different routes in life and actually had a lot of wisdom to impart. I was merely trying spread a little bit of what I've learned after recovering from being that type-A anal personality, do-everything-perfect person. It's really cruel torture to the psyche. Having a child with autism will change your perspective on everything. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but there is absolutely no reason why anyone should comment on other people's familial choices while in residency or assume that non-trads or those that take a few years off have lesser stats than those that don't. Or that surfing and the people you may meet and affect in life while on the beach is any less valuable than than the people you affect while being a physician.
I don't know why I've fallen prey to this SDN thing.
 
I'm a non-trad with more than my share of regrets. The thing for each individual is to do what they feels is best for them and go with it. If you see you screwed the pooch a few years from now-try something else. I work for Wal-Mart(slave-ville) it was really a good job; paid me good with benefits. I just got burnt out and was thinking of why the heck didn't I stay in school and try medicine? So I quit and I'm going back to do it. Sure I learned somethings I would not have; but I also could be on a different curve in life now-good or bad. But I really believe there are those teenagers that can do it and those that can't. I see non-trads that do it because they have done the things they wanted and are ready for something else(not trying to say it is fad) and those that should probly go be a PE coach-I think of it often🙂 . Just do what you feel bc in 12 years you'll be doing what you want or not. If you think this is it do.
 
because my parents cannot afford to support me while i enjoy life for a year.

I understand that there are ALWAYS extenuating circumstances of one form or another pushing people towards whatever direction is best for them, but not having your parents to support you for another year after graduating college being a reason for going straight into medical school, while perhaps easier on the surface (and potentially more pragmatic in the short-term) than incuring debt, finding a way to support yourself, etcetera, is ultimately a choice.
 
I still say because of age and maturity reasons it makes the vast majority of applicants stronger. And I didn't say people who were waivering on whether they wanted to be a doctor - a lot of people who take a year off aren't waivering at all. I meant people waivering as to whether to take a year off or not. Knowing that in general numbers are higher might encourage them to go ahead and take that year off.

I think taking a year off should be thought of in terms of regaining sanity and just having fun as opposed to hey its going to make me a better applicant. Leave it to sdners to think about everything in terms of admission chances...

But have you "older" folks even entertained the idea that maturity is not solely based on age, or that it varies with different people? Haven't you met someone 2 years (or heck, 20) years older than you who lacks maturity?

👍


What's wrong with 19-yo applicants? 😳

nothing. fault lies in the applicant, not the age.
 
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as an actual young med student (19) who goes to school with a few other med students who are quite young (17-21), i can say that there is no place that i'd rather be than here. we are all very serious about our education, but it's not like once you enter med school, life ends. in fact, i can say for sure that i have had as many memorable experinces in the last 2 months as i did in all of undergrad. it's all what you make of it.

SDN is very good about maintaining a group mentality, which i had discovered just last year. there is a lot of negativity and criticism towards people who don't venture to other countries or lifestyles because somehow, you can't be a good doctor or even a med student unless you're thoroughly satisfied that you don't want to do anything else and be anywhere else. and that in itself is pretty narrow-minded.

in terms of maturity or social awkwardness, i assure you, my classmates constantly (almost irritatingly) forget that i am not yet 21 because i talk and act exactly like they do.

my advice to young applicants though, if you are confident of your reasons to pursue medicine as your career, and have no doubt of where you want to be 10-20 years from now, do it. don't let people on the internet who don't even know you detract you from doing what is best for you. but approach this process and the rest of your lives with humility.

good luck you guys. :luck:

thank you rex
 
interesting thread. definitely thought provoking. i know when i initially thought of applying to med school at the tender age of 21, it scared the living beejeezus out of me. that's when i decided to attend a different college (small liberal arts) and try out another career pathway just to make certain this is what i truly wanted to do. personally, i knew i was not in a state of maturity to handle the responsibilities of a doctor.

now i'm 23 and will apply immediately after turning 24. by no means have i "arrived" but one thing i do know for definite is i am a much more mature, wiser, understanding, and non judgemental individual than i was previously. and these characteristics could only come by the life experiences i was able to be a part of because i did wait and explore my options.
 
No, they're not. Where are you getting the 3.7 and 32 from? I never said this. A 3.7/32 is good for a matriculant at almost any medical school, let alone for an applicant.

Anyway, hope the new thread works out for you, but please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know where you're getting these GPAs and MCATs from, but it wasn't me.
Engrish? A matriculant post applicant if school not online? Your post GPA was MCAT yesterday?

Carry on, chap.
 
^ But...jobs suck. If it comes down to applying to med school out of college or waiting a year (or two or three or more) and working all the while, and *then* applying, I'd do it in college hands down. Note: no, not all jobs suck. But the ones I've had have. So if it came between having those while *not* being in college or applying traditionally...well, my answer is above.
 
Or uh, you could get a job and support yourself like some of us did through college.

uhh I've had a job since my sophomore year. I just can't fully support myself. I live in the bay area of California. Its kinda expensive, like the most expensive in California.
 
uhh I've had a job since my sophomore year. I just can't fully support myself. I live in the bay area of California. Its kinda expensive, like the most expensive in California.

Yeah but its totally doable - I've been doing it for 4 years and am now doing it during my year off with plenty of spending money. And I have a pretty ****ty paying desk job.
 
Furthermore, I find your post rather antagonistic. Please do not assume things about my life or judge me.
 
Alwaysangel,
Look, whether its doable or not, I cant. Its just not a fesible option for me. I'm glad everyone else can do it, but I cant.
cus
(1) my MCAT expires, and i will do worse in a year
(2) i will shoot myself if i have to fill out these app again next year
(3) my parents refuse it
and, yes, im an adult and can tell them no, but i love them and cant isult them by wasting all the money they have spent on me
 
Alwaysangel,
Look, whether its doable or not, I cant. Its just not a fesible option for me. I'm glad everyone else can do it, but I cant.
cus
(1) my MCAT expires, and i will do worse in a year
(2) i will shoot myself if i have to fill out these app again next year
(3) my parents refuse it
and, yes, im an adult and can tell them no, but i love them and cant isult them by wasting all the money they have spent on me

Thats fine. You don't have to wait a year - its great that you're not and you'll be a year younger than I will be when you finish.

But to say that supporting yourself in the bay area is impossible is just plain silly - pretty much every person I know is doing it right now because they all stayed in Berkeley while either taking a year off or figuring out what they wanted to do.
 
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