"You're my third choice program"

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funpebbles

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So I have a number one just because I am familiar with program outside of the interview, but there are a few other programs I plan to rank as 2 or 3, really want to go to, and frankly all I'm really excited about. I was wondering if you guys could help me:

I've been told to say "I plan to rank you highly." If I were a PD, I would interpret this as not number one.

1) If programs contact ME, can I just be honest and say they ARE my number 3 and really do want to go there?

2) For programs that haven't contacted me (some maybe 3-6 on my list), should I contact THEM and tell them I plan to rank highly? How to say? Or is it better to not say anything. I want to express genuine interest, but am afraid if I'm not put on the spot with PD calling me, I might be harming myself by tacitly letting program know they are not my first choice? Or does benefit of continuing to show interest outweigh this risk.

3) Regarding communication in general, 20 days before match I assume most programs have some sort of working list? If they don't call/write/email, does this mean they don't plan to rank me highly? How many days before ROLs are due (Feb 26 this year) is "peak" communication time? From personal experience, did you guys hear from where you ultimately wound up? Some PDs haven't responded to my thank you emails. 🙁

Thank you so much for all your help!
 
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/eras-and-the-nrmp-match.190/

The ERAS/NRMP link above has a lot of valuable info on this. I think the general consensus is that the thank you letters won't really matter (maybe shift you couple spots in the rank list if you tell them they are #1... nothing too significant otherwise). Programs are going to assess/rank you based you on how strong your application is and how well you do during the interview (and a lot of times, these assessments are made right after the interviews). In the broader scope of things, I don't think the thank you letters will drastically change things (eg. shift you from bottom to the top of the pile) and is more of a gesture of courtesy

I sent my #1 program a brief e-mail saying they were so for following reasons. For the rest of the programs, I just tried to express my genuine interest in the program.

To answer your questions, I wouldn't specify #2 vs #3 vs highly. Like dating/prom, I'd be surprised if a program wanted to hear that they were your second choice... I think words like "highly" has become trite as well. You can express genuine interest without specifying ranking imo.

To answer your third question, I haven't heard back from some PDs either, and I don't think it's a big deal. I am sure they are busy, and your letters are nicely placed away in your files. I don't think there is a specified "peak" communication period, but you obviously still have enough time to write them a thank you letter if you haven't, if you think it will put your mind at ease.

Just my view on the process thus far. Personally, I am burned out from writing letters and letting the chips fall where they may. There's always the chance of being disappointed on match day, so I've tried to take a healthier approach of realizing that regardless of where you end up, you are going to be a good psychiatrists, as long as you put in the effort during residency.. [insert other rainbow-esque objects here].

Hope this answered some of the questions, and I am sure other PDs and faculty have more insight on the matter. Best luck to all of us!
 
If you're not telling them you're ranking them #1 it's better not to say anything. They are not allowed to ask where you are ranking them so just don't volunteer that info unless they are your #1.

Programs don't care if you're ranking them "highly," that doesn't really give them any info in terms of helping them sort out their rank list. Knowing they won't drop below you on their list (if they know they're your #1) does give them some info and sometimes can affect how they rank you. Programs also like people who really want to be there, so if it's between you (who are ranking them #1) and someone else they like just about the same, they may rank you instead.

They really don't care though if they're "highly ranked" on your list. That means nothing to them.
 
Whatever communication you do give at this point make it courteous but very brief. Nobody wants to read a three paragraph letter explaining all the reasons you love the program. You're trying to communicate that they are your #1, nothing more, so keep it sweet and simple.
 
I would even go as far as to say that if a program is not your #1 don't communicate at all with them unless contacted. Exactly never in any ranking meeting did anyone ever say, "so and so never emailed after their interview to say how much she loved our program, let's move her down the list."

But I have heard, "so and so sent a bizarre, 2 page letter about things that I'm not even sure are true about our program. Should we rank her at all?"
 
Many programs, such as mine, have finished with evaluating candidates. Just rank and cross your fingers. Many people don't get their first or second choice, so be prepared for that.
 
funpebbles said:
3) Regarding communication in general, 20 days before match I assume most programs have some sort of working list? If they don't call/write/email, does this mean they don't plan to rank me highly? How many days before ROLs are due (Feb 26 this year) is "peak" communication time? From personal experience, did you guys hear from where you ultimately wound up? Some PDs haven't responded to my thank you emails. 🙁

Thank you so much for all your help!
Click to expand...

Do not read into whether or what kind of communication you get our don't get. You're as likely to be wrong as you are to be right. At this point, you've interviewed, which means the hardest part is done. For the most part programs already have a good idea about where you'll end up on their lists (usually in terms of "ranked to match, top of the list but not ranked to match, middle, bottom, or not ranked). There is very little chance of you bumping yourself up into a higher category but plenty of things you can do to bump yourself down, all of which involve you contacting the program or otherwise coming to their attention in a negative way.

Some programs will tell you if they're ranking you to match our have you at the top of their list. There is no way to tell which ones will our won't, because programs change up what they do from year to year.

Don't interpret the presence or lack of communication.

Don't reach out to programs unless you have an extremely good reason to do so.

Try, try, try your hardest to just make your ranklist based exactly on where you want to be, then certify your last and wait until Match Day.
 
Pretty much what VMS said--we rank based on who we want and how we felt they would fit in our program, not our conception of whether they would or would not rank us #1 or #3 or "better-than-nothing" last. It is kind of nice to hear that applicants we saw in November are still interested, but frankly, we're not sure whether to believe you no matter what you say about where we're listed, so just a polite "hey, I'm still thinking of you and hope we might be working together" is PLENTY. (And email is sufficient...no need to give Hallmark or the postal service more of your money just to fill my recycling bin...) And yes, you *can* overdo it to the point that someone in the ranking meeting will say "he's over the top", or "she's kind of pushy..." and that likely will drop you a couple of places.
 
great. i sent one sentence follow up to my number one and will not contact my number two and answered my number three's phone call diplomatically.

how concerned should i be that number two did not even respond to thank you interview emails?
 
funpebbles said:
great. i sent one sentence follow up to my number one and will not contact my number two and answered my number three's phone call diplomatically.

how concerned should i be that number two did not even respond to thank you interview emails?
Click to expand...

Wouldn't stress it. Some programs just don't do anything.
What can you do about it anyway?
 
I’m afraid this game is a large waste of time. Programs can be sure of a very small number of applicants at the very top of their lists, but this is in the single digits. Assuming you are not one of these stars, you are probably below a couple of dozen people some of whom have communicated that the program is ranked “very highly”. To cloud things up even more, the star applicants tend to know that they don’t need to tip their hand much so we really cannot look at our list and say... “Let’s see, there is one, two, there you are, oops, sorry”. Applicant post interview communication is not to be trusted, not because people lie so much, but because applicants are still reconsidering things constantly. Just look at how many of you are asking for help with these decisions. I would be willing to bet a pay check that a program director couldn’t accurately predict half of their matches. It is a rare match when there isn’t at least one “you are my #1” that doesn’t come. I don’t suggest doing that, not because we care that much, but you will be a little red faced when we meet again. Most of the programs would be quite pleased with most of the applicants they interview, but they can only get about one in ten of these so being at all thin skinned isn’t possible. As wonderful as you are, we don’t cry much over what could have been. Things tend to work out well for most so don’t worry too much. It will do its own thing at this point regardless of any capacity for magic thinking.

The bottom line, program directors aren’t tight lipped, they just have no idea what will happen. Those that think they have an idea about your chances, are inexperienced.
 
MacDonaldTriad said:
... Most of the programs would be quite pleased with most of the applicants they interview, but they can only get about one in ten of these so being at all thin skinned isn’t possible. As wonderful as you are, we don’t cry much over what could have been. Things tend to work out well for most so don’t worry too much. It will do its own thing at this point regardless of any capacity for magic thinking.

The bottom line, program directors aren’t tight lipped, they just have no idea what will happen. Those that think they have an idea about your chances, are inexperienced.
Click to expand...

This...

It's like trying to predict the results of the 2016 Super Bowl based on Mel Kiper's 2014 mock draft, or filling out your NCAA tournament bracket on the basis of November's pre-season poll.
 
OldPsychDoc said:
This...

It's like trying to predict the results of the 2016 Super Bowl based on Mel Kiper's 2014 mock draft, or filling out your NCAA tournament bracket on the basis of November's pre-season poll.
Click to expand...

…so Duke will be over-rated, Kentucky will have a ton of talent but who knows if they will gel, and at least one or two Big East teams will tank for some unknown reason. 😀
 
funpebbles said:
great. i sent one sentence follow up to my number one and will not contact my number two and answered my number three's phone call diplomatically.

how concerned should i be that number two did not even respond to thank you interview emails?
Click to expand...

Well, my number one did not respond to my thank you emails! I keep wondering if that is what made them #1 on my list. You know, because of the primitive need for validation (they were #3 pre-interview).

I hope not!
 
You will go crazy reading too much into these things.

From "Forgetting Sarah Marshall"

[In response to Matthew the waiter's question about how Aldous liked his CD] Oh, I was gonna listen to your CD (respond to your e-mail), but then I just went on living my life.
 
Okay, so my own psychiatrist (yes, we went over my ROL for 2.5 hours since no one else could understand my thought process!) just told me that psychiatry does not follow the rules and programs ranking me highly will let me know. Secondly, she said every program would want me and just wait a few weeks. Someone please tell me she is wrong about the first statement and keep me in denial (even if you're lying), since I already don't believe the second statement since many programs have already had their rank meetings.
 
Even if your psychiatrist is a training director, he/she is wrong (about the first part). Maybe he/she was told something during his/her match and he/she is extrapolating from an N=1. Oh, the second part is probably true.
 
funpebbles said:
Okay, so my own psychiatrist (yes, we went over my ROL for 2.5 hours since no one else could understand my thought process!) just told me that psychiatry does not follow the rules and programs ranking me highly will let me know. Secondly, she said every program would want me and just wait a few weeks. Someone please tell me she is wrong about the first statement and keep me in denial (even if you're lying), since I already don't believe the second statement since many programs have already had their rank meetings.
Click to expand...

She's wrong.

Yes--wait a few weeks. Six weeks, to be exact.
 
she is in private practice and is older, from pre-match etc days. but in all honesty, if a PD responds to a number one letter to te effect of "thank you," does that mean "no?"

MacDonaldTriad said:
Even if your psychiatrist is a training director, he/she is wrong (about the first part). Maybe he/she was told something during his/her match and he/she is extrapolating from an N=1. Oh, the second part is probably true.
Click to expand...
e
 
funpebbles said:
Okay, so my own psychiatrist (yes, we went over my ROL for 2.5 hours since no one else could understand my thought process!) just told me that psychiatry does not follow the rules and programs ranking me highly will let me know. Secondly, she said every program would want me and just wait a few weeks. Someone please tell me she is wrong about the first statement and keep me in denial (even if you're lying), since I already don't believe the second statement since many programs have already had their rank meetings.
Click to expand...

How would your psychiatrist know this? I think very few of us can speak generally about anything involving the match, especially when we're several years out of the process. Also, it's not not following the rules to tell people how they're ranked. It's probably not that common, though, either. So, yes, she's wrong.
 
!

The answer was nothing. There is nothing you can do at this point. So, just relax, and wait! And if your schedule allows, take a well-deserved vacation!
 
But I'm sure there has to be one resident on here who can tell me (1) Did you sort of get strong hint from your program before match and (2) would you interpret a one sentence response to a number one email to the effect of "thank you" as "thanks but no thanks?"
 
funpebbles said:
But I'm sure there has to be one resident on here who can tell me (1) Did you sort of get strong hint from your program before match and (2) would you interpret a one sentence response to a number one email to the effect of "thank you" as "thanks but no thanks?"
Click to expand...

I am sure that there are people who matched who also got strong hints and indications from PDs, but I have also read accounts here on SDN of people getting a "you are ranked to match" email and then not matching at that program, so take it all with a grain of salt.

I also think you should not interpret anything you received (or did not receive) in any post interview email or phone call as a good or bad indication of where you stand on their rank list. Frankly, given the recently renewed effort to discourage this stuff, I think a PD would be nuts to send out a misleading email that could come back and bite him in the butt if a rebuffed applicant made a stink about it.
 
funpebbles said:
But I'm sure there has to be one resident on here who can tell me (1) Did you sort of get strong hint from your program before match and (2) would you interpret a one sentence response to a number one email to the effect of "thank you" as "thanks but no thanks?"
Click to expand...
(1) no
(2) no

You're trying to read tea leaves here.
 
I'm def aware of the false promise stories (an attending told me one even back from his day), and have gotten strong hints at some programs and mo response at all from others. I guess better questions would be (1) Did anyone match at a program that did not contact them? (2) What and when before match, if anything, did your current program say to you?

funpebbles said:
But I'm sure there has to be one resident on here who can tell me (1) Did you sort of get strong hint from your program before match and (2) would you interpret a sentence to the effect of "thank you" as "thanks but no thanks?"
Click to expand...
Psychotic said:
I am sure that there are people who matched who also got strong hints and indications from PDs, but I have also read accounts here on SDN of people getting a "you are ranked to match" email and then not matching at that program, so take it all with a grain of salt.

I also think you should not interpret anything you received (or did not receive) in any post interview email or phone call as a good or bad indication of where you stand on their rank list. Frankly, given the recently renewed effort to discourage this stuff, I think a PD would be nuts to send out a misleading email that could come back and bite him in the butt if a rebuffed applicant made a stink about it.
Click to expand...
 
funpebbles said:
I'm def aware of the false promise stories (an attending told me one even back from his day), and have gotten strong hints at some programs and mo response at all from others. I guess better questions would be (1) Did anyone match at a program that did not contact them? (2) What and when before match, if anything, did your current program say to you?
Click to expand...

My program doesn't contact people any more, so I'm guessing everyone who matches here won't be contacted. There are a ton of variables involved in this process. Either way, you're probably going to match, so whatever, it works out.
 
funpebbles said:
I'm def aware of the false promise stories (an attending told me one even back from his day), and have gotten strong hints at some programs and mo response at all from others. I guess better questions would be (1) Did anyone match at a program that did not contact them? (2) What and when before match, if anything, did your current program say to you?
Click to expand...
(1) yes
(2) nothing. "Thanks for coming, we really liked you" on interview day. No further contact. And there doesn't need to be.
 
Listen all applicants. This is fruitless. Rank your programs and stop worrying about communication. Forget communicating. You've made your impression. The die is cast.

You can contact your #1 and tell them they are your #1, otherwise don't contact anyone. Leave it at that.
 
OldPsychDoc said:
I liked the DBT answer better...
Click to expand...

Some radical acceptance of the idea that there is nothing you can do to control this situation. Crisis survival skills might also be useful in the day approaching match. Maybe a pro and con list about obsessing on SDN versus another activity. 🙂
 
funpebbles said:
she is in private practice and is older, from pre-match etc days. but in all honesty, if a PD responds to a number one letter to te effect of "thank you," does that mean "no?"


e
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. Even if it does, you should change your list any with this information. If you want to go there, leave your list alone. It will not change your outcome if it does mean no. What it does mean is that they have no idea and don't want to break rules or miss lead you.
 
When is the best time to tell a program they are our #1? I don't want to wait until after their rank list has been made, but I also want to be sure of my decision (I am 90% sure this program is my #1, but I would like to wait to hear if any other programs would really like me to go there. Don't think this would change my mind, but I'd still like to play it safe. I don't want to be someone that has to call up a program saying, "Sorry, I have changed my mind. You are no longer my #1."). I also understand that we should take what we hear from programs with a grain of salt. Thanks in advance!
 
nata723 said:
When is the best time to tell a program they are our #1? I don't want to wait until after their rank list has been made, but I also want to be sure of my decision (I am 90% sure this program is my #1, but I would like to wait to hear if any other programs would really like me to go there. Don't think this would change my mind, but I'd still like to play it safe. I don't want to be someone that has to call up a program saying, "Sorry, I have changed my mind. You are no longer my #1."). I also understand that we should take what we hear from programs with a grain of salt. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
And this illustrates why we take what we hear from applicants with a grain (or two) of salt!

Re-read http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/youre-my-third-choice-program.1054115/#post-14878974
and recite the first line to yourself. Aloud. Repeatedly.
 
Ok, OPD, point taken. I'll try to not add any more madness to this "game" and will simply wait until I'm 100% sure before I tell my #1 of my decision. Thanks!
 
Even so, I don't think it does anything. At best, assuming you are truthful, it assures a PD that if he/she gets to where they have ranked you in their list, they will have one slot that's a sure thing. While I don't mind that reassurance, if I had you at #39, but my interviewers liked #38 a bit better, I'm not going to move you up ahead of her just because you told me our program was your top choice--even if #38 hasn't said Boo to me since interview day. We're submitting a rank list based on our preferences, and so should you.
 
Hummmm. So OldPsychDoc's #38 is a female, so how should that change my list? Darn, this match thing is so hard!
 
MacDonaldTriad said:
Hummmm. So OldPsychDoc's #38 is a female, so how should that change my list? Darn, this match thing is so hard!
Click to expand...
So when are we going to get together for our secret meeting to talk about all the candidates and which ones wore the wrong color suit to our interviews and might be telling us both that they're ranking us #1? :naughty:
 
Psychotic said:
However...clearly some of this stuff matters to some programs because they engage in the sending of emails, if not making phone calls, to applicants in this last gasp period leading up to the rank deadline. I know, because, well...I don't want to trigger any more anxiety on this thread, but, as of late last week, let's just say I know.
Click to expand...

This. It is especially anxiety provoking when programs only call the top few. Three from our class interviewed at the same top program in the south, and it is the top choice for all three of us. I have now received a call from the program while the other two haven't. Of course that doesn't mean they won't match at the program - they are both stronger candidates than me on paper with higher scores on everything. But it has caused this slight rift between us that I don't think is going to resolve until the match. And maybe not even then, even if we match at the same program. There should really be a NRMP rule prohibiting programs or candidates to have any communication after the interview day is over. It would really reduce the headache for all of us. I've been a long term lurker here and I just registered to rant (of all things I could've registered for).
 
Look at it from the perspective of the PD or program coordinator. Many of them get several phone calls a day, some of them from the same person, and it could be highly frustrating. Don't over-communicate and don't push it unless you have reason to believe they want to talk to you more.

As for the entire process, several candidates will state they're putting the program high up or first when there's no truth to a lot of truth behind it. It's all part of the process and it's like a game in many ways for better or worse.

I believe that many medstudents make this process much more frustrating for themselves than it has to be because their last frame of reference in something like this was getting into medical school. While residencies can be competitive, the stress and competition is far less than getting into medical school, and it's not hard to get into residency. It could be very hard to get into a specific spot/first choice but it's not hard to get into a program. The process, of course, needs to be taken seriously, but if someone were to guide the applicant, it'd be like having a wedding coordinator vs doing it all by yourself not knowing how any of ins/outs works.

They really don't care though if they're "highly ranked" on your list. That means nothing to them.
Click to expand...
Agree that this is likely the case for most programs. I have seen a few new green PDs take this process too personally. The PD at my residency program, for example, was told by a medstudent she would rank the program #1. She went somewhere else (proving she didn't rank the program as #1 because she was ranked #1 by my PD), and my PD was furious, and yelled out something to the effect of "I'll never trust an applicant again!"

I was actually kind of shocked by that because I thought someone in her position and age would've had enough experience to know the thing is a game. She really allowed herself to attach to some residents and students inappropriately as if they were BFFs.
 
/slight tangent... I am taking comlex 2 pe or usmle 2 cs in january. scores come out in march. I know a number of students doing this. only one school has said something to me so far. 12 MD interviews. what do? you think? how many programs will knock me out? will I match. more mid tier programs, maybe some low tier ones too? perhaps a few are reputable. I am quite confident that I will pass as I am preparing. good scores on step 1 and 2 [around average]
 
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