pathology assistant

[nickto21]

Hey All,
I'm looking into graduate programs, something that's an extension of biochemistry, and I found a program at Ohio State that would make me a pathologist's assistant. It said that I would take gross anatomy, histology, and have to learn how to do a full autopsy.

Sounds pretty neat, but....

I'm not really sure what a pathologist's assistant does.

Do they actually perform autopsy's,etc?

Any insight is much appreciated

[sequela]

Originally Posted by nickto21

Hey All,
I'm looking into graduate programs, something that's an extension of biochemistry, and I found a program at Ohio State that would make me a pathologist's assistant. It said that I would take gross anatomy, histology, and have to learn how to do a full autopsy.

Sounds pretty neat, but....

I'm not really sure what a pathologist's assistant does.

Do they actually perform autopsy's,etc?

Any insight is much appreciated

i think being a PA is a great job. all the PAs i know LOVE their job...great pay for the amount of training and degree of liabilty. from what i've seen, they gross specimens and yes, i have heard of them doing autopsy. i'm not sure how it works in private practice but at teaching hospitals, PAs also get to train residents and so there is opportunity for teaching if that's something you're into.

i'm not clear on the extent of histology that they see, i suppose it depends on where they practice??? at the academic ctrs i've been to, none of the PAs use the microscope.

there are only so many schools that train pathology assistants so you would have geographical limitations if you wanted legitimate, certifiable training.

i think it is a great career path if you know that don't want to do medical training to actually do the rest of what a pathologist does.

this is the extent of my knowledge. good luck.

[yaah]

I would wager most PAs don't do much autopsy in the course of their job, although some do. It is part of training though. Most PAs spend their days grossing specimens - oftentimes they are responsible for all of the tiny biopsies and standard specimens, although at most places they have some large grossing responsibilities. There are also places where PAs do a lot of frozens during the day.

In terms of the autopsies, their role if they participate would probably be as a diener (opening the body, taking measurements, cleaning up, lots of knife work, etc).

In general I think PAs make $60-80k per year.

[rirriri]

Originally Posted by sequela

i think being a PA is a great job. all the PAs i know LOVE their job...great pay for the amount of training and degree of liabilty. from what i've seen, they gross specimens and yes, i have heard of them doing autopsy.

REALLY? nearly all the PA's i've spoken with are dead tired of their job....most of them move around from hospital to hospital quite often and switch jobs. they do get paid well, and at our hospital they do assist in Autopsies, but only when the deaner is off. But the general feeling i get off talking to PA's is that they feel confined to just grossing...i know alot of them wish they could do medical school. Some of them really are very intelligent.

[sequela]

Originally Posted by rirriri

REALLY? nearly all the PA's i've spoken with are dead tired of their job....most of them move around from hospital to hospital quite often and switch jobs. they do get paid well, and at our hospital they do assist in Autopsies, but only when the deaner is off. But the general feeling i get off talking to PA's is that they feel confined to just grossing...i know alot of them wish they could do medical school. Some of them really are very intelligent.

yeah...the ones i've talked to really love their jobs. the majority are at academic ctrs (which are known to treat their staff well) and one is in private practice and absolutely loves her employers.

like anything, i'm sure it all comes down to the work enviornment with some being much better than others, and sometimes even worth a pay cut. so, it is hard to generalize.

i do agree that there is probably a strong possibility one might come to feel confined and eventually earn for a deeper understanding or more integral role in the practice of pathology. i know i would but i am sure there is some population of PAs that are content with the extent of their responsibilities and expertise. and that may have more to do with lifestyle choices and personal priorities than with intelligence.

so, i would always suggest that a person considering such a career choice truly know themselves and know what their ultimate career/professional goals/ideals might be both now and 10-20 yr from now. sometimes circumstance or practical considerations (family, kids, finances, etc) decides these things for you. but if you have the choice and/or opportunity to go to med school, then it's best to think long and hard about the pros/cons of both pathways.

either way, it is a solid career choice when considering various healthare professions.

[rirriri]

Originally Posted by sequela

yeah...the ones i've talked to really love their jobs. the majority are at academic ctrs (which are known to treat their staff well) and one is in private practice and absolutely loves her employers.

like anything, i'm sure it all comes down to the work enviornment with some being much better than others, and sometimes even worth a pay cut. so, it is hard to generalize.

i do agree that there is probably a strong possibility one might come to feel confined and eventually earn for a deeper understanding or more integral role in the practice of pathology. i know i would but i am sure there is some population of PAs that are content with the extent of their responsibilities and expertise. and that may have more to do with lifestyle choices and personal priorities than with intelligence.

so, i would always suggest that a person considering such a career choice truly know themselves and know what their ultimate career/professional goals/ideals might be both now and 10-20 yr from now. sometimes circumstance or practical considerations (family, kids, finances, etc) decides these things for you. but if you have the choice and/or opportunity to go to med school, then it's best to think long and hard about the pros/cons of both pathways.

either way, it is a solid career choice when considering various healthare professions.

i agree with alot of what you're saying....but the ones i know range from working at smaller places all the way up to huge academic centers...and they all sort of have the same outlook of feeling trapped within a one-track work week. I think the most common statement i remember hearing is "yeah, but i can't go any further up in my career" (or something to that extent)....which is something i can understand being frustrated about, there aren't really any promotions in being a PA.

but yes...it's a good paying job with alot of jobs available...and definitely a good choice for someone looking for immediate stability and a solid salary with just a 4 year bachelor's degree.

[mcfaddens]

Originally Posted by rirriri

i agree with alot of what you're saying....but the ones i know range from working at smaller places all the way up to huge academic centers...and they all sort of have the same outlook of feeling trapped within a one-track work week. I think the most common statement i remember hearing is "yeah, but i can't go any further up in my career" (or something to that extent)....which is something i can understand being frustrated about, there aren't really any promotions in being a PA.

but yes...it's a good paying job with alot of jobs available...and definitely a good choice for someone looking for immediate stability and a solid salary with just a 4 year bachelor's degree.

From my knowledge of the subject a PA program is a master’s degree program. So you would have to equate 6 years than 4 (4 UNDERGRAD AND 2 FOR MASTERS) I believe that they are now under a certification by the ASCP, which prevents non masters degree PA's to practice widely. Most programs have one year of book work then 1 year of rotations in a clinical environment before graduation and certification. The program up here provides them to rotate in a variety of clinical scenarios including private and academic centers as well as a stent at the ME's office. I have heard of PA's performing autopsies in certain hospitals that don’t have dieners.

[rirriri]

Originally Posted by mcfaddens

From my knowledge of the subject a PA program is a master’s degree program. So you would have to equate 6 years than 4 (4 UNDERGRAD AND 2 FOR MASTERS) I believe that they are now under a certification by the ASCP, which prevents non masters degree PA's to practice widely.

Master's? no. PA's generally have only Bachelor's degrees. If they were required to be Masters, i think our residencies would be much harder with no PA's!! haha

[mcfaddens]

Originally Posted by rirriri

Master's? no. PA's generally have only Bachelor's degrees. If they were required to be Masters, i think our residencies would be much harder with no PA's!! haha

Check it

http://pathology.mc.duke.edu/website...d=AcadProgMain

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1042.xml

http://www.pathology.ecu.edu/Public/.../paprogram.htm

http://www.pathology.med.ohio-state....AP/default.htm

http://66.99.255.20/srhs/pathasst/

This is from their national web site

Q: What exactly is the professional commitment of a Path Asst?

A: Only master level programs can host a Path Asst candidate eligible for ASCP BOR certification.


Q: How do I become an AAPA member?

A: AAPA membership categories include Fellow, Affiliate, and Student members. A member is elevated to Fellow upon passing the ASCP BOR Pathologists’ Assistant Certification Examination. To join the AAPA, you must be a student attending a NAACLS accredited training program. Alternatively, some on-the-job trained (OJT) individuals may still have time to join before the phase out date of December 31, 2007. You must have completed a Bachelor’s program and have had three years of continuous bench experience to become exam eligible through the ASCP BOR. Once exam eligible, you have the option to become an Affiliate member of the AAPA. After 2007, the OJT route will no longer be available. You are not eligible to make the phase out deadline unless you were employed prior to December 31, 2004, and will have completed your Bachelor’s degree by the December 31, 2007, phase out date.

[rirriri]

Originally Posted by mcfaddens

Q: How do I become an AAPA member?

A: AAPA membership categories include Fellow, Affiliate, and Student members. A member is elevated to Fellow upon passing the ASCP BOR Pathologists’ Assistant Certification Examination. To join the AAPA, you must be a student attending a NAACLS accredited training program. Alternatively, some on-the-job trained (OJT) individuals may still have time to join before the phase out date of December 31, 2007. You must have completed a Bachelor’s program and have had three years of continuous bench experience to become exam eligible through the ASCP BOR. Once exam eligible, you have the option to become an Affiliate member of the AAPA. After 2007, the OJT route will no longer be available. You are not eligible to make the phase out deadline unless you were employed prior to December 31, 2004, and will have completed your Bachelor’s degree by the December 31, 2007, phase out date.

interesting...i don't know much about certification and all that stuff. but ALOT of PAs have bachelor degrees only.

there are programs with just bachelor's PA training in school.

http://www.mortsci.wayne.edu/apa_info.htm

one of the biggest sites of training Pathologist Assistants here in New York is here:http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/und...athologist.sju

i think what it may come down to is whether the person decides they wanna be a PA before completing undergraduate (bachelor's) or after a science BS (master's)...but 6 years of school is alot for a PA i think, especially considering Med. School would only be 2 more years....then again, it's tougher to get into...so.....

[mcfaddens]

Originally Posted by rirriri

interesting...i don't know much about certification and all that stuff. but ALOT of PAs have bachelor degrees only.

there are programs with just bachelor's PA training in school.

http://www.mortsci.wayne.edu/apa_info.htm

one of the biggest sites of training Pathologist Assistants here in New York is here:http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/und...athologist.sju

i think what it may come down to is whether the person decides they wanna be a PA before completing undergraduate (bachelor's) or after a science BS (master's)...but 6 years of school is alot for a PA i think, especially considering Med. School would only be 2 more years....then again, it's tougher to get into...so.....

True, but if they arent grandfathered in or finish a path assistant BS by december of next year then they cant be a PA. I am gonna have to disagree with you on the length of training issue. Gross diagnosis and prosection In my opinion is so crucial to providing a proper pathologic examination. A million mistakes could be made before the slide ever reaches your eyes, and a good PA with a soild educational background is vital to your sucess as a diagnostician. I dont know what the feeling is among residents around the country but a good gross inspection is so valuable and I would personally want someone with good soild training (ie a masters or some grad degree) to be involved in that.

Yes med school is only 2 more years but you forget about residency years and a significantly larger med school loan debt.

[nickto21]

Thanks for the replies.

nickto21.

[Joseph Goff]

Hi,

I graduated from the Pathologist Assistant program at Wayne State University in Michigan and currently work as a PA at a large teaching hospital. I think I might be able to shed some light on some of the queries presented in this thread.

First, there are only 7 accredited Pathologists' Assistant programs in the US, all of which are taught at the Master's level with the exception of Wayne State University that is still at the Bachelor's level. From what I understand,
WSU is also in the process of converting their program to the graduate level.

It is not uncommon for allied health programs to be taught at the graduate level. Take, for instance, the field of physical therapy. Initially this program was offered at the Bachelor's level and now all PT programs are converting to Doctor of Physical Therapy programs. The same is true for Pharmacists. Physician Assistant programs are now mostly taught at the Master's level, too. Don't forget, doctor's still have a residency to do after medical school and so the education is not complete with 8 years.

In regards to autopsies--yes, we are able to do complete autopsies on our own without a pathologist directly present. We are able to serve in the capacity as autopsy assistant, prosector, or both. We are trained extensively in performing hosptial and forensic autopsies. At most hospitals, PA's normally serve as the prosector and dissect the organ block looking for a cause of death. At my previous position at the Detroit Medical Center, I served as prosector during autopsy and had an autopsy attendant working with me to eviscerate the organ block and clean up afterwards. Of course, this role could change depending where you are. At my current position, we have pathology residents that are required to do 50 autopsies each and so we do not have to do autopsies. I volunteered to fill in as the autopsy assistant when he is on vacation, though.

As far as grossing in concerned, we gross everything from simple biopsies to the most complex cases. We do this without direct supervision of a pathologist. As long as the pathologist is available by phone for consult if we need it, we are able to gross any case that comes in.

Frozen section coverage depends on where you are located. At my previous position, I prepped the specimen, took sections for microscopic evaulation in consult with the pathologist, froze and stained the sections. At my current position, the histotechs mainly cut the frozens but the residents have to do the prep work.

I disagree with PA's not being happy with their chosen career. The job can be stressfull, but overall I would say most of us are thrilled to be working in this field. Don't confuse on-the-job trained PA's without formal education or certification with PA's certified by the AAPA. I've seen more than once where histotechs are trained to gross simple specimens like biopsies, placentas, etc., but they are not doing the complicated stuff. If all I did day in and day out was gross biopsies, I don't think I'd enjoy my career much either.

Hope this helps! If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me. I do not check this forum regularly.

Joseph Goff
joseph.goff@comcast.net

[Joseph Goff]

St. John's program is no longer accredited by NAACLS.

[anencephalic]

Originally Posted by Joseph Goff

I disagree with PA's not being happy with their chosen career. The job can be stressfull, but overall I would say most of us are thrilled to be working in this field. Don't confuse on-the-job trained PA's without formal education or certification with PA's certified by the AAPA. I've seen more than once where histotechs are trained to gross simple specimens like biopsies, placentas, etc., but they are not doing the complicated stuff. If all I did day in and day out was gross biopsies, I don't think I'd enjoy my career much either.

Joseph Goff
joseph.goff@comcast.net

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that all PA's that are OJT (On-the-job trained) are inferior to those that are program trained. There are those individuals who claim to be "Pathologists' Assistants" who do nothing more than transferring small biopsies into cassettes. Others think PA's clean the morgue.

There is a vast disparity between the quality of OJT PAs, hence the move to phase out the OJT route and standardize who can call themselves a "PA (ASCP)" through a Master's level program, and rightly so. Doing so ensures the viability of the PA profession as well as sets higher standards of education and will produce graduates who demonstrate consistency in training and ability.

As an OJT Path Assistant who holds both ASCP and AAPA certification, 9+ years professional experience and on my way to Pathology residency, I can attest to the fact that there are MANY OJT trained PAs who can hold their own against Master's program trained individuals. OJT does not necessarily imply inferiority.

[SLUsagar]

most of the top notch PA schools are in the east coast. There is a massive shortage of PAs in the west coast, and trust me, if they're a certified PA, they can make bAnK in the west, esp. cali. Near 6 figures.

[LADoc00]

Most pathologist assistants want near 50 bucks an hour (~100K year) + benefits + 1.5x overtime (can be up to 20K in overtime) on the west coast. Given the time to get the degree, standard 8-5 hours, relative stress free lifestyle when compared to something like nursing, being a PA actually beats out being a full PATHOLOGIST for many people. Crazy but true. Sort of like how a CRNA will make 2x as much as many peds docs.

Imagine being 25 years old, being able to cherry pick your location for a low cost of living and pulling down 120K/year. Almost no profession can match that.

I would say ANY PA degree probably would equal more income improvement than 90% of the law and B-schools.

[DrBloodmoney]

I know about 3 who absolutely love their jobs and they are great at it. I suggest trying to contact one or two and try to shadow them for a week.

[PathOne]

I'd have to agree that relative to the training required and the working hours, PA is one of the most attractive allied healthcare professions you can enter. I have also heard of the 100K+ salaries, and it's unlikely that demand should decline in the forseeable future, so if you don't want to be a Pathologist, it's a nice option (and you can have fun and make $$$ for 7-8 years, while your friends struggle through med school, residency and fellowship).
Downside is, of course, that you don't get to do real diagnostic work.

[Joseph Goff]

Originally Posted by anencephalic

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that all PA's that are OJT (On-the-job trained) are inferior to those that are program trained. There are those individuals who claim to be "Pathologists' Assistants" who do nothing more than transferring small biopsies into cassettes. Others think PA's clean the morgue.

There is a vast disparity between the quality of OJT PAs, hence the move to phase out the OJT route and standardize who can call themselves a "PA (ASCP)" through a Master's level program, and rightly so. Doing so ensures the viability of the PA profession as well as sets higher standards of education and will produce graduates who demonstrate consistency in training and ability.

As an OJT Path Assistant who holds both ASCP and AAPA certification, 9+ years professional experience and on my way to Pathology residency, I can attest to the fact that there are MANY OJT trained PAs who can hold their own against Master's program trained individuals. OJT does not necessarily imply inferiority.

Hi,

I think you might have misunderstood. I meant that program trained or certified (implying OJT PAs who passed the AAPA or ASCP exam) individuals should not be lumped together with so-called PAs who have not met the education requirements or passed the board exam.

Joseph Goff

[anencephalic]

Originally Posted by Joseph Goff

Hi,

I think you might have misunderstood. I meant that program trained or certified (implying OJT PAs who passed the AAPA or ASCP exam) individuals should not be lumped together with so-called PAs who have not met the education requirements or passed the board exam.

Joseph Goff

Agreed.

[hallwe]

I am thinking about applying to PA school. How tough is it to get in? I have a Masters in Cytology. I currently work as a Cytotech at a Reference Lab. It can be kind of stressful at times but it is not bad the pay is alright could be better but there is always the stress of missing a cancer and getting fired.

[yaah]

Originally Posted by hallwe

I am thinking about applying to PA school. How tough is it to get in? I have a Masters in Cytology. I currently work as a Cytotech at a Reference Lab. It can be kind of stressful at times but it is not bad the pay is alright could be better but there is always the stress of missing a cancer and getting fired.

PAs have similar stressors - you can mess up a gross dictation and dissection about 50 different ways that could impact diagnosis.

I'm sure PA school is fairly tough to get into but not that bad if you have good qualifications, like everything else.