Pathology and PSLF

[spes93]

I’ll need 4-5 years as an attending to qualify for 10-yr PSLF. It would be irresponsible to do anything other than PSLF in my situation, regardless of attending salary.

How hard is it to get a job that qualifies for PSLF? I’m interested in academics but that’s competitive, so in case that’s not possible, how hard is it to find alternative PSLF eligible positions?

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[HmanPath]

VA jobs should qualify. No idea of your subspecialty, but most all forensic path jobs qualify.

 

[octopusprime]

I’ll need 4-5 years as an attending to qualify for 10-yr PSLF. It would be irresponsible to do anything other than PSLF in my situation, regardless of attending salary.

How hard is it to get a job that qualifies for PSLF? I’m interested in academics but that’s competitive, so in case that’s not possible, how hard is it to find alternative PSLF eligible positions?

...what qualifies your situation to be PSLF or bust? "Regardless of attending salary" is not the best way to look at it; you can enter PSLF working for the VA or academics and make sub $200k/yr (perhaps more given the current market) but I wouldn't restrict yourself to one particular job market because you have loads of debt, particularly when you don't know what the government is going to say or do in 5-10 yrs.
Plan your career & life on what you want to do.

You can pay down debt making $4-500k/yr and save lots of money on the side unless you have 5 kids and live in a super HCOL area. Maybe the first few years will be rougher with employee salary, but 'live like a resident' for a few more years, pay down your debt, save some money...don't spend 10 yrs of your life doing something you don't want to do because...PSLF.

Also academics is not competitive FWIW...compared to private practice. Look at the job boards...lots of opportunity and the majority is academic.

 

[spes93]

...what qualifies your situation to be PSLF or bust? "Regardless of attending salary" is not the best way to look at it; you can enter PSLF working for the VA or academics and make sub $200k/yr (perhaps more given the current market) but I wouldn't restrict yourself to one particular job market because you have loads of debt, particularly when you don't know what the government is going to say or do in 5-10 yrs.
Plan your career & life on what you want to do.

You can pay down debt making $4-500k/yr and save lots of money on the side unless you have 5 kids and live in a super HCOL area. Maybe the first few years will be rougher with employee salary, but 'live like a resident' for a few more years, pay down your debt, save some money...don't spend 10 yrs of your life doing something you don't want to do because...PSLF.

Also academics is not competitive FWIW...compared to private practice. Look at the job boards...lots of opportunity and the majority is academic.

Well in my situation the difference between overall payment with PSLF and the second lowest (REPAYE) is about $800,000. The repaye forgiveness after 20 years does not help much given it’s taxed unlike pslf. So I’ll be paying close to a million total if I don’t do PSLF. My financial counselor calculated I’d have to make over 500k a year until retirement to justify it—a long shot in path but esp given my interest in academics.

I thought I read somewhere here academics is hard to get in to. Maybe as DO? Regardless I’m glad to hear it’s not necessarily competitive.

Forensic path and academics are interests, but was looking for alternatives to consider, so good to see pslf is easy overall.

 

[octopusprime]

I'm utterly confused...$800k is the difference between PSLF and normal repayment? Have you looked at consolidating? based on what rate, repayment period and debt?...just how much debt are we talking? and how? I need a little more information about your financial picture as it sounds like you are buried in unfathomable debt.

 

[spes93]

I'm utterly confused...$800k is the difference between PSLF and normal repayment? Have you looked at consolidating? based on what rate, repayment period and debt?...just how much debt are we talking? and how? I need a little more information about your financial picture as it sounds like you are buried in unfathomable debt.

No need to be “utterly” confused, but it is SDN after all so that verbiage is expected I guess. I am in $630000 of student loan debt, 4 year private university, 2 year grad school, and 4 years pricey DO school. In as much debt as possible really.

If you must know, at the end of PSLF I will have paid around 150K total. If at the end of 20 years of repaye (with consolidation of loans) the remainder is forgiven (and taxed) it amounts to close 1m total paid (because of taxes on forgiveness). This is around the same of standard straight payment (without forgiveness).

Regardless from answers I’ve been given over all PSLF seems like a safe bet and the right choice.

 

[sloh]

No need to be “utterly” confused, but it is SDN after all so that verbiage is expected I guess. I am in $630000 of student loan debt, 4 year private university, 2 year grad school, and 4 years pricey DO school. In as much debt as possible really.

Holy f***.

 

[HmanPath]

Wow, that is a lot! I am FP and recently had about 380K forgiven through the PSLF. If you happen to be interested in FP, feel free to PM me. Cheers.

 

[octopusprime]

Jesus tapdancing Christ.
I think the bigger question is why have you gone through your education/life/career to this point with reckless financial abandon?
I mean I guess that's a common millenial/gen Z approach, but the aggregate of life decisions that have led you to nearly 3/4 of a million $ in debt--in your presumed 30s--is more concerning to me, and suggests you need more sound & brutally honest but helpful financial advice than you're going to find on this forum.
I suggest lurking around, and potentially posting on, the WhiteCoatInvestor forum...no doubt you will get harsh advice & comments, so if that's going to 'trigger' you nvm... But $630k is staggering and warrants a deeper dive.

 

[octopusprime]

Salty Gen X gripe to follow...just ignore it if you're going to be triggered or opine back with some long winded retort on 'using the tools available' and 'big business get breaks all the time' and etc etc poor unsuspecting students that just happen to amass scradillions of debt by age 34.

This is the tremendous problem I have with PSLF...and student debt forgiveness in general. It does nothing to tackle the actual problem (skyrocketing tuition costs imposed by unscrupulous politicians, universities and banks), offloads mounds of debt upon the taxpayers, and encourages students to do whatever their hearts desire--regardless of costs--with the intent of paying back as LITTLE as possible.

Tuition wasn't $500/yr when I went to college...it was less than today but still would have amounted to $100-150k had I gone to a private school, which influenced my decision to a.) attend a small public school, and b.) spend a few years in the military. Result: no debt.

Med school wasn't $50-60k/yr like now, but it was $30-40k. And the rates were about 4-5%. There was no PSLF, or deferment in residency, you just paid the $200-$300k you accrued once you finished. Consolidate with a private lender for a better rate. Spend 10 yrs paying it off, living like a resident for a few years, owning the lot you cast yourself.

 

[spes93]

Salty Gen X gripe to follow...just ignore it if you're going to be triggered or opine back with some long winded retort on 'using the tools available' and 'big business get breaks all the time' and etc etc poor unsuspecting students that just happen to amass scradillions of debt by age 34.

This is the tremendous problem I have with PSLF...and student debt forgiveness in general. It does nothing to tackle the actual problem (skyrocketing tuition costs imposed by unscrupulous politicians, universities and banks), offloads mounds of debt upon the taxpayers, and encourages students to do whatever their hearts desire--regardless of costs--with the intent of paying back as LITTLE as possible.

Tuition wasn't $500/yr when I went to college...it was less than today but still would have amounted to $100-150k had I gone to a private school, which influenced my decision to a.) attend a small public school, and b.) spend a few years in the military. Result: no debt.

Med school wasn't $50-60k/yr like now, but it was $30-40k. And the rates were about 4-5%. There was no PSLF, or deferment in residency, you just paid the $200-$300k you accrued once you finished. Consolidate with a private lender for a better rate. Spend 10 yrs paying it off, living like a resident for a few years, owning the lot you cast yourself.

I was desperate to become a doctor, and did what I had to do. I didn't do it blindly, they were tough decisions I made because being a doctor was the only thing I wanted to do. I didn't go into it thinking PSLF will save me, I honestly didn't realize there would be a "bail out" and just lived with the thought of being in debt until retirement in the back of my mind, but I was ok with the price of my profession. So maybe don't blame PSLF or similar programs for collective debt or "attitude" of millennials. Exorbitant tuition is the problem more than PSLF, but I hope salty Gen Xers don't have the motivation to get rid of social programs like PSLF, despite exorbitant tuition, just because they didn't need "bail outs" and there's a tax burden on you because of it.

 

[octopusprime]

I was desperate to become a doctor, and did what I had to do. I didn't do it blindly, they were tough decisions I made because being a doctor was the only thing I wanted to do. I didn't go into it thinking PSLF will save me, I honestly didn't realize there would be a "bail out" and just lived with the thought of being in debt until retirement in the back of my mind, but I was ok with the price of my profession. So maybe don't blame PSLF or similar programs for collective debt or "attitude" of millennials.

I agree that tuition sky rocketing is ultimately the problem, but I'm sorry I just don't agree that the decisions that lead to $630k in debt are unavoidable and that you had your hands tied, and it was the most feasible option. There are insane numbers of people that make hard choices every day, and the decision to attend costly private schools and amass that kind of debt is not the plight of altruism or a childhood dream...it's poor decision making, and even if you think I'm a heartless a-hole, I still stand by a strong recommendation to seek some serious financial advice and develop a plan on how to live because your situation warrants more consideration than just PSLF or REPAYE.
Do you have any long-term savings? Roth IRA? What kind of car do you drive? What are your monthly expenses? Single or family? Do you have a 5 and 10 year plan? These are questions I'm not asking you necessarily directly but ones you have to ask yourself and that you should talk with about somebody.

 

[spes93]

I agree that tuition sky rocketing is ultimately the problem, but I'm sorry I just don't agree that the decisions that lead to $630k in debt are unavoidable and that you had your hands tied, and it was the most feasible option. There are insane numbers of people that make hard choices every day, and the decision to attend costly private schools and amass that kind of debt is not the plight of altruism or a childhood dream...it's poor decision making, and even if you think I'm a heartless a-hole, I still stand by a strong recommendation to seek some serious financial advice and develop a plan on how to live because your situation warrants more consideration than just PSLF or REPAYE.
Do you have any long-term savings? Roth IRA? What kind of car do you drive? What are your monthly expenses? Single or family? Do you have a 5 and 10 year plan? These are questions I'm not asking you necessarily directly but ones you have to ask yourself and that you should talk with about somebody.

I come from a poor and uneducated family. I wanted to go to NYU because it was near home, a "dream school" and my parents didn't know better than to tell a 17 year old "no." It was recommended by a pre-med advisor to do an SMP instead of just applying MD/DO out of college (the latter would have increased my chances at both anyway), and recommended a program in Boston that was supposed to set me up well. The DO offer closest to home I ended up getting was expensive (the alternative was in the deep South, also expensive). I'm not sure how you expect someone from a disadvantaged background that didn't have much time to work more than minimum wage jobs to be a miser financially. You need money to have a good budget, I'm just getting by with what I'm given. People with Roth IRA while in medical school have rich parents. Alternatively, if you're taking out enough loan refund to put it into a Roth IRA that is an equally dumb decision (and I think illegal). All these plans you mention are for privileged people and/or people who work in industry 5+ years before medical school. I just didn't think about finances much because I was following my dream and my loved ones.

 

[HmanPath]

FWIW, I did indeed go to public, instate institutions for undergrad and medical school and still ended up with 380K (100K of which was accrued interest) in debt. The cumulative interest rate on the government loans was 7%. If I would have gone the PP route, I would definitely have refinanced and plowed through the loans, but since FP almost universally qualifies for the PSLF, why not?

 

[spes93]

FWIW, I did indeed go to public, instate institutions for undergrad and medical school and still ended up with 380K (100K of which was accrued interest) in debt. The cumulative interest rate on the government loans was 7%. If I would have gone the PP route, I would definitely have refinanced and plowed through the loans, but since FP almost universally qualifies for the PSLF, why not?

Yeah very toxic posters. I should have known better than to post here with these trolls who have no empathy because they obviously weren't challenged in the same ways. If they had made better decisions it is likely they had better options, or at least better guidance. No one is born knowing how to navigate medicine. So if there are social programs to balance this out for those who willing to put in the work and service, I'm so sorry for your piddling increase in taxes because of just PSLF (there are so many more expensive programs with a more significant impact on taxes, like the bank bailouts they themselves admitted to).

 

[octopusprime]

I come from a poor and uneducated family. I wanted to go to NYU because it was near home, a "dream school" and my parents didn't know better than to tell a 17 year old "no." It was recommended by a pre-med advisor to do an SMP instead of just applying MD/DO out of college (the latter would have increased my chances at both anyway), and recommended a program in Boston that was supposed to set me up well. The DO offer closest to home I ended up getting was expensive (the alternative was in the deep South, also expensive). I'm not sure how you expect someone from a disadvantaged background that didn't have much time to work more than minimum wage jobs to be a miser financially. You need money to have a good budget, I'm just getting by with what I'm given. People with Roth IRA while in medical school have rich parents. Alternatively, if you're taking out enough loan refund to put it into a Roth IRA that is an equally dumb decision (and I think illegal). All these plans you mention are for privileged people and/or people who work in industry 5+ years before medical school. I just didn't think about finances much because I was following my dream and my loved ones.

So basically it's everyone else's fault--parents, advisors, etc--for you doing what you did. You're clearly academically smart, but having "poor and uneducated parents" doesn't confer lack of responsibility. This is not a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" GOP perspective (I'm a moderate democrat/independent)--there are AMPLE people that grow up with poor and uneducated parents that still don't amass $630k of debt. Dave Ramsey would sh** himself.

(FYI I'm not talking about those plans in medical school, I'm talking about them in residency, when you had a mid-5 figure income.)

Listen, you can make excuses all day long, and I can sit here and deride you for many of them, but bottom line you need to take a different approach to life and finances than you have in the past, or you're going to be one of those broke azz physicians that's going to wake up and realize when he/she is 55 yrs old that you can't retire for another 20 years, and you've been taken advantage of your whole life financially. If you don't care, and just want to go through life taking bad advice or not owning decisions, nvm just keep on the same track.

You need a plan, advice from a financial planner and ideally have a mentor in the field/medicine (even if it's anonymous WCI forum stuff) that can convince you to change course.

 

[octopusprime]

Yeah very toxic posters. I should have known better than to post here with these trolls who have no empathy because they obviously weren't challenged in the same ways. If they had made better decisions it is likely they had better options, or at least better guidance. No one is born knowing how to navigate medicine. So if there are social programs to balance this out for those who willing to put in the work and service, I'm so sorry for your piddling increase in taxes because of just PSLF (there are so many more expensive programs with a more significant impact on taxes, like the bank bailouts they themselves admitted to).

Lol that is classic victim mentality...all my better decisions are just because I had better options.
I have empathy but only for people that OWN their decisions. You can't control who your parents are, but everything from 18 onward is on you buddy. Not your parent's lack of guidance, your academic advisor, or the mean brutally honest "trolls" on SDN.

Also LOL, you tell that story to and try to get sympathy from my father in law, who's childhood stories would make you embarrassed for breathing air, and he'd laugh you out of the room.

 

[spes93]

So basically it's everyone else's fault--parents, advisors, etc--for you doing what you did. You're clearly academically smart, but having "poor and uneducated parents" doesn't confer lack of responsibility. This is not a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" GOP perspective (I'm a moderate democrat/independent)--there are AMPLE people that grow up with poor and uneducated parents that still don't amass $630k of debt. Dave Ramsey would sh** himself.

(FYI I'm not talking about those plans in medical school, I'm talking about them in residency, when you had a mid-5 figure income.)

Listen, you can make excuses all day long, and I can sit here and deride you for many of them, but bottom line you need to take a different approach to life and finances than you have in the past, or you're going to be one of those broke azz physicians that's going to wake up and realize when he/she is 55 yrs old that you can't retire for another 20 years, and you've been taken advantage of your whole life financially. If you don't care, and just want to go through life taking bad advice or not owning decisions, nvm just keep on the same track.

You need a plan, advice from a financial planner and ideally have a mentor in the field/medicine (even if it's anonymous WCI forum stuff) that can convince you to change course.

ok this is true. And you're right, so I'm following up with a financial counselor. Sorry to harp on this, but the only way forward to have financial freedom right now is through PSLF. The big financial things to me were vague and abstract, and even though I did the small things correctly, I did not appreciate the consequences of the big decisions, I could not see them clearly for a number of reasons with I suppose definitely is my responsibility at least in part but I don't think I can say 100% was because I was irresponsible. Everyone comes at the same problem from drastically different perspectives. War veterans that make millions, "rags to riches" financial gurus, CEOs that "pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps" all have had something external that has guided their success, be it the right place at the right time/meeting the right people etc, whether they laugh you out of the room for disagreeing or not.

 

[octopusprime]

ok this is true. And you're right, so I'm following up with a financial counselor. Sorry to harp on this, but the only way forward to have financial freedom right now is through PSLF. The big financial things to me were vague and abstract, and even though I did the small things correctly, I did not appreciate the consequences of the big decisions, I could not see them clearly for a number of reasons with I suppose definitely is my responsibility at least in part but I don't think I can say 100% was because I was irresponsible. Everyone comes at the same problem from drastically different perspectives. War veterans that make millions, "rags to riches" financial gurus, CEOs that "pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps" all have had something external that has guided their success, be it the right place at the right time/meeting the right people etc, whether they laugh you out of the room for disagreeing or not.

Many, I would argue, have had external guidance. I wouldn't say "all". But excluding those with a financial gift from well off family members, being in the "right place at the right time" is tantamount to "life", essentially. There are always opportunities out there, some people find them by looking, others stumble upon them. But the personality traits of those successful people you referenced (excluding the aspergers/autistic Elon Musk geniuses) are pretty consistent, and it's not like those people would have ended up under a bridge in a cardboard box had they not just stumbled into some opportunity. Many to most would have had something pay off at some point. Sounds like a Malcolm Gladwell book.