Is it morally wrong for a doctor to smoke cigarettes?

[FujiApple]

A friend of mine want to apply to med school in 2 years, and he just started smoking cigarettes. This got me thinking: isn't it wrong for a doctor to use nicotene? Granted, cigarettes are not mind-altering, like pot or any hallucenogin, so they don't technically alter a doctor's performance while on the job. But, if a doctor's responsibilty is the health of his patients, and not smoking cigarettes is one the most important and simplest things that one can do in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, isn't it immoral for a doctor to smoke cigarettes himself? I mean, imagine if a patient with lung cancer or emphysema sees his doctor outside his window on a cigarette break... That hypocrisy has got to nullify anything the doctor told him about how important it is for him to stop smoking, for his own health and for those around him. So, by smoking, a doctor is not only risking his own health, but he's also not doing his best to treat his patients... Am I way off base? Is smoking purely a personal matter that shouldn't have anything to do with being a doctor? Or does smoking while doctoring reek of hypocrisy to anybody else? Sorry for the rant, but I'd appreciate some opinions...

[UCLAstudent]

I guess there shouldn't be any overweight doctors, either.

[PEN15]

Originally Posted by UCLAstudent

I guess there shouldn't be any overweight doctors, either.

Short and sassy... gotta love it!

[FujiApple]

Originally Posted by UCLAstudent

I guess there shouldn't be any overweight doctors, either.

But there are so many reasons why some people can't choose their weight... Thyroid problems, steroid treatments for certain immune disorders or arthritis, crappy genetics... But, smoking (actually, in my friend's case, starting to smoke) is fully within a person's power to choose. So, I don't think that obesity is the best comparison.

[kapil_MD]

Simple answer: Yes its wrong, for the reasons you've already stated.
There are many reasons that contribute to being overweight, there isn't one for smoking. You have the power to choose. So the weight analogy fails.

besides....I wouldn't take a cardiologist who smokes too seriously...

[DeadCactus]

I don't think so.

You would think they of all people would know better though...

[63768]

it's not immoral. maybe hypocritical, but then again maybe not since doctors aren't supposed to do anything about non-compliant patients anyway beyond advising them.

[MWK]

It doesnt quite add up for it. I still find it hard when I see respitory care nurses smoking, its like "are you kidding me". I dont know if its morally wrong, but a educated person in the health field should know way better.

Is it wrong for doctors/future ones to be addicted to coffee/caffiene? If so, we're all in trouble.

[Jacks Mannequin]

If they believe cigarettes are harmful to their health, then yes.

[NonTradMed]

It's hypocritical, but I'm not sure about 'immoral'. People separate their jobs from their personal life all the time. As long as the smoking doesn't affect your professional diagnosis, I don't think it matters too much (well, except to your lungs).

[blackfuryWRX]

Originally Posted by NonTradMed

It's hypocritical, but I'm not sure about 'immoral'. People separate their jobs from their personal life all the time. As long as the smoking doesn't affect your professional diagnosis, I don't think it matters too much (well, except to your lungs).

My thoughts exactly.

[doctolbert]

Is it morally wrong for a doctor to smoke cigarettes?

No.

[evade]

Just because we know better doesn't mean we always make the best decisions for ourselves.

Do you always eat right? Get 8 hours of sleep every night? Exercise a minimum of 30 minutes daily? Drive the speed limit?

Have you ever had too much to drink? Taken any recreational drugs? Done something risky because it was fun?

There's scarcely a single person on this Earth who does everything you're supposed to do to stay healthy, physicians included. We all have vices. Yes, it's harmful to our health to indulge in these, but no, it's not immoral, so long as we're not hurting our patients (operating on them while drunk, blowing smoke in their faces, etc). Doctors aren't saints. They're people who want to help keep you healthy, and so long as a doctor can help smokers quit, who cares if they personally smoke?

[dr.z]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

A friend of mine want to apply to med school in 2 years, and he just started smoking cigarettes. This got me thinking: isn't it wrong for a doctor to use nicotene? Granted, cigarettes are not mind-altering, like pot or any hallucenogin, so they don't technically alter a doctor's performance while on the job. But, if a doctor's responsibilty is the health of his patients, and not smoking cigarettes is one the most important and simplest things that one can do in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, isn't it immoral for a doctor to smoke cigarettes himself? I mean, imagine if a patient with lung cancer or emphysema sees his doctor outside his window on a cigarette break... That hypocrisy has got to nullify anything the doctor told him about how important it is for him to stop smoking, for his own health and for those around him. So, by smoking, a doctor is not only risking his own health, but he's also not doing his best to treat his patients... Am I way off base? Is smoking purely a personal matter that shouldn't have anything to do with being a doctor? Or does smoking while doctoring reek of hypocrisy to anybody else? Sorry for the rant, but I'd appreciate some opinions...

I think it would be wrong if the doctor smokes him/herself and told other people not to smoke.

[Vox Animo]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

A friend of mine want to apply to med school in 2 years, and he just started smoking cigarettes. This got me thinking: isn't it wrong for a doctor to use nicotene? Granted, cigarettes are not mind-altering, like pot or any hallucenogin, so they don't technically alter a doctor's performance while on the job. But, if a doctor's responsibilty is the health of his patients, and not smoking cigarettes is one the most important and simplest things that one can do in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, isn't it immoral for a doctor to smoke cigarettes himself? I mean, imagine if a patient with lung cancer or emphysema sees his doctor outside his window on a cigarette break... That hypocrisy has got to nullify anything the doctor told him about how important it is for him to stop smoking, for his own health and for those around him. So, by smoking, a doctor is not only risking his own health, but he's also not doing his best to treat his patients... Am I way off base? Is smoking purely a personal matter that shouldn't have anything to do with being a doctor? Or does smoking while doctoring reek of hypocrisy to anybody else? Sorry for the rant, but I'd appreciate some opinions...

no. Its not immoral, it's just stupid as a regular person smoking.

Plenty of doctors and medical students drink too much smoke too much and exercise to little. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be doctors.

Patients may not take you as seriously though.

[TheProwler]

no

[BeatrixKiddo]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

But there are so many reasons why some people can't choose their weight... Thyroid problems, steroid treatments for certain immune disorders or arthritis, crappy genetics... But, smoking (actually, in my friend's case, starting to smoke) is fully within a person's power to choose. So, I don't think that obesity is the best comparison.

Why don't you do a study and realize that thyroid problems do NOT plauge 70% of Americans. You are fat because you ate too much.

[Sarg's kid]

It's not morally wrong, just really stupid. The same question applies to seeing a really overweight doctor. They should know better.

[Sarg's kid]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

But there are so many reasons why some people can't choose their weight... Thyroid problems, steroid treatments for certain immune disorders or arthritis, crappy genetics... But, smoking (actually, in my friend's case, starting to smoke) is fully within a person's power to choose. So, I don't think that obesity is the best comparison.

People can choose their weight. It's a question of self control. Maintaining a healthy weight is NOT the same as being skinny. A person can maintain a healthy weight through diet and exercise, even with bad genetics. It's doable, it's just not easy.

[estairella]

I would also say no. Doctors have higher suicide rates and overall death rates than the general population, presumably because they are under a lot more stress.

However, one of the first things you learn in a "healthy living" class is that you should reduce the stressors in your life to maintain a healthy immune system, and keep yourself sane.

Being a doctor is stressful. Doctors promote removing stress from their lives. If they were to follow their own advice, they would quit their jobs and become fishermen (the kind that sits in their little rowboats for half a day, catch nothing, and buy live ones at the local grocery store to show their kids at home).

But here's the tricky part, if all doctors quit their jobs by following their own advice, no doctors would be giving that advice anymore (since there wouldn't be any). Paradox!

[BeatrixKiddo]

Originally Posted by trozman

I would also say no. Doctors have higher suicide rates and overall death rates than the general population, presumably because they are under a lot more stress.

However, one of the first things you learn in a "healthy living" class is that you should reduce the stressors in your life to maintain a healthy immune system, and keep yourself sane.

Being a doctor is stressful. Doctors promote removing stress from their lives. If they were to follow their own advice, they would quit their jobs and become fishermen (the kind that sits in their little rowboats for half a day, catch nothing, and buy live ones at the local grocery store to show their kids at home).

But here's the tricky part, if all doctors quit their jobs by following their own advice, no doctors would be giving that advice anymore (since there wouldn't be any). Paradox!

That's the stupidest paradox I've ever heard. Silence yourself.

[msundi83]

Originally Posted by BeatrixKiddo

Why don't you do a study and realize that thyroid problems do NOT plauge 70% of Americans. You are fat because you ate too much.

I totally agree. I would go as far as to say very few people absolutely can loose body fat safely and effectively. Poor genetics are a crutch. There is an amount of exercise and an amount of food that yields safe and adequate fat loss for most anyone. People who think they are cursed genetically are reaching for a crutch in most cases. Even those with subclinical thyroid problems can reach a healthy bodyfat percentage...its just more difficult and takes a lot more effort that they may not be ready to exert. Sorry for the slightly off topic rant.

No...its not immoral IMO...just not advisable. There back on topic.

[msundi83]

Originally Posted by Sarg's kid

People can choose their weight. It's a question of self control. Maintaining a healthy weight is NOT the same as being skinny. A person can maintain a healthy weight through diet and exercise, even with bad genetics. It's doable, it's just not easy.

I'll give ya an AMEN on that...

[BeatrixKiddo]

Originally Posted by msundi83

I totally agree. I would go as far as to say very few people absolutely can loose body fat safely and effectively. Poor genetics are a crutch. There is an amount of exercise and an amount of food that yields safe and adequate fat loss for most anyone. People who think they are cursed genetically are reaching for a crutch in most cases. Even those with subclinical thyroid problems can reach a healthy bodyfat percentage...its just more difficult and takes a lot more effort that they may not be ready to exert. Sorry for the slightly off topic rant.

No...its not immoral IMO...just not advisable. There back on topic.

It's not only that, I think obesity has taken on the ADD complex. The percentage of people with real medical problems is much less than claimed.

[FujiApple]

Originally Posted by BeatrixKiddo

You are fat because you ate too much.

Whoa, hey, no need to insult me. I'm not fat. Actually, I'm quite svelte.

So, perhaps I jumped the gun here with my word choice. The consensus seems to be that smoking is unadvisable and hypocritical, but not immoral. Sounds reasonable to me.

I do, however, disagree with the comparisons to obesity and caffeine. There is nowhere near the overwhelming body of evidence for caffeine that there is for nicotene showing deleterious health consequences and facility and strength of addiction. As for obesity, granted, it's probably the country's biggest health problem, but the choice of whether or not to pick up that first cigarette is far more cut and dry than the daily, difficult, often uninformed decisions over whether to order the side of fries or the side salad. All I'm saying is, I think doctors shouldn't smoke so they set a good example for their patients, and I think that the decision to be a non-smoker may be easier to carry out than the decision to be thin. So, if it's this simple, I think it's wrong for doctors not to make this choice. Sorry for the run-ons.

[FenderHM]

thats ridiculous smoking is in no way immoral look up immoral there's a difference between prescribing a drug to a pateint because the pharm company send you to hawaii once a year versus making one bad choice that doesnt affect your doctoring ability.

if smoking is immoral so is eating fatty foods, not sleeping 8 hours a night having sex with multiple partners, drinking alcohol, eating grilled meat, and not exercising everyday for at least thirty minutes

[chevaliermalfet]

I am not even sure that a doctor smoking is hypocritical, much less immoral. The decision to begin smoking was a personal choice, made by the doctor. Of course he knows it is unhealthy, but it's not his job to keep himself healthy, it is his job to keep his patients healthy. People respect doctors, but they should hopefully understand that they are human too, with human vices and human problems. My dad used to smoke, and he didn't need to quit to tell me that it sucked.

Perhaps it is hypocritical on the level of one person who smokes to tell another person not to do it, but I don't think the irony is any worse if that smoker happens to be a doctor.

[MossPoh]

This question has come up a few times. It defintley depends on the era of the doctor, as well as the field. I have met a couple docs that are in very high stress areas that feels it relaxes them. Most call it stupid but back in the day, as late as the late 70s-early 80s smoking is just what you did...especially nurses, xray techs etc...you went and had a smoke break and talked. I despise cigs and think it is disgusting but it is merely annoying to have a doc with the "do as I say, not as i do" philosphy

[etf]

i don't think it's morally wrong, or any other type of wrong. doctors are human beings. just because they don't give an s about their health doesn't mean they can't do their job and advise you on yours. i wouldn't mind if my cardiologist smoked - as long as i don't have to smell it, and he knows what he's doing when it comes to my health.

[etf]

Originally Posted by chevaliermalfet

I am not even sure that a doctor smoking is hypocritical, much less immoral. The decision to begin smoking was a personal choice, made by the doctor. Of course he knows it is unhealthy, but it's not his job to keep himself healthy, it is his job to keep his patients healthy. People respect doctors, but they should hopefully understand that they are human too, with human vices and human problems. My dad used to smoke, and he didn't need to quit to tell me that it sucked.

Perhaps it is hypocritical on the level of one person who smokes to tell another person not to do it, but I don't think the irony is any worse if that smoker happens to be a doctor.

whoops, i just basically repeated your post. at least i'm not the only one.

[Terpskins99]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

Whoa, hey, no need to insult me. I'm not fat. Actually, I'm quite svelte.

So, perhaps I jumped the gun here with my word choice. The consensus seems to be that smoking is unadvisable and hypocritical, but not immoral. Sounds reasonable to me.

I do, however, disagree with the comparisons to obesity and caffeine. There is nowhere near the overwhelming body of evidence for caffeine that there is for nicotene showing deleterious health consequences and facility and strength of addiction. As for obesity, granted, it's probably the country's biggest health problem, but the choice of whether or not to pick up that first cigarette is far more cut and dry than the daily, difficult, often uninformed decisions over whether to order the side of fries or the side salad. All I'm saying is, I think doctors shouldn't smoke so they set a good example for their patients, and I think that the decision to be a non-smoker may be easier to carry out than the decision to be thin. So, if it's this simple, I think it's wrong for doctors not to make this choice. Sorry for the run-ons.

Wow, no love for nicotine, huh? Since when did it suddenly become carcinogenic? All it does is get ya hooked up. I'm all for nicotine, just not the 500+ other chemicals that get thrown in there that can actually f-up my lungs.

Oh, and in terms of health... did you know that caffeine-addiction is the #1 cause of headaches in the united states. Think how much of a burden that puts on the average american consumer. If you just get rid of caffeine in the US, then advil, bayer and tylenol effectively go out of business.

I guess its a little bit early, but there are plenty of other drugs that doctors love to get high with. Most of you guys know about dentists' love for nitric oxide. And a couple more about oxycontin. How about fentanyl and anesthesiologists?

And man, if you thought that smoking in front of your patients was bad... Did you know that 2% of all doctors sell controlled substances to their patients on the side without reporting it?

[BeatrixKiddo]

Originally Posted by Terpskins99

Wow, no love for nicotine, huh? Since when did it suddenly become carcinogenic? All it does is get ya hooked up. I'm all for nicotine, just not the 500+ other chemicals that get thrown in there that can actually f-up my lungs.

Oh, and in terms of health... did you know that caffeine-addiction is the #1 cause of headaches in the united states. Think how much of a burden that puts on the average american consumer. If you just get rid of caffeine in the US, then advil, bayer and tylenol effectively go out of business.

I guess its a little bit early, but there are plenty of other drugs that doctors love to get high with. Most of you guys know about dentists' love for nitric oxide. And a couple more about oxycontin. How about fentanyl and anesthesiologists?

And man, if you thought that smoking in front of your patients was bad... Did you know that 2% of all doctors sell controlled substances to their patients on the side without reporting it?

oMG WHAT KIND OF WORLD ARE WE LIVING IN HERE ?!!??! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:sca red:

[twohearted]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

But there are so many reasons why some people can't choose their weight... Thyroid problems, steroid treatments for certain immune disorders or arthritis, crappy genetics... But, smoking (actually, in my friend's case, starting to smoke) is fully within a person's power to choose. So, I don't think that obesity is the best comparison.

Most people who are overweight are so not because of such problems but because of overeating/lack of excercise/lifestyle. In that way, the majority of overweight people are overweight because of choice much like smokers smoke because of choice. Obesity is a lifestyle issue for most people not a thyroid/genetics problem. I think obesity is just as much a choice as smoking, with those few exceptions (genetics/thyroid probs.) To quit smoking takes will-power but still is within one's personal choice. This is the same with obesity. It may be very difficult, but it is the obese individual's choice whether or not to get off the couch and exercise a little and/or stop consuming more calories than they use. I think obesity is a pretty good comparison.

[Seanses]

Originally Posted by BeatrixKiddo

Why don't you do a study and realize that thyroid problems do NOT plauge 70% of Americans. You are fat because you ate too much.

My hero.

My home state is easily top 5 for fattest states. Not because every person has the same background, it's just too cold to do anything else.

I just hope my doctor doesn't blow that caine behind my back like Tony Montana.

[psipsina]

I dunno, while it is hypocritical to ask patients to stop a behavior that you haven't managed to stop (i.e. not excersizing enuf, smoking cigarettes etc), having experienced the struggle your patients are having may make you a better doctor for them. I smoked and I quit successfully after many tries, and I think when I tell a patient they need to quit in the future it will have more levity than someone who has never experienced the addiction. Even if I hadn't been successful and was still struggling with it, I feel like I could be more in touch with my patient's experience. Sometimes when doctors tell their patients that they need to modify behaviors that are very difficut to modify, they do it a bit flippantly, and that maybe in the patient's head, their thinking that the doctor has no clue what their experience is like and doesn't take it to heart as much, whereas if the doctor really understood what they were asking of the patient, maybe they could express that and have a deeper impact on that patient. Anyway, I'm rambling, point being, I don't think doctors should be encouraged to participate in unhealthy habits, but we are all human and are bound to do something that we wouldn't reccomend to our patients, so maybe we can utilize our personal struggles to understand our patients at a deeper level and be able to connect more meaningfully with them when trying to help them overcome their struggles.

[FujiApple]

Originally Posted by psipsina

I dunno, while it is hypocritical to ask patients to stop a behavior that you haven't managed to stop (i.e. not excersizing enuf, smoking cigarettes etc), having experienced the struggle your patients are having may make you a better doctor for them. I smoked and I quit successfully after many tries, and I think when I tell a patient they need to quit in the future it will have more levity than someone who has never experienced the addiction. Even if I hadn't been successful and was still struggling with it, I feel like I could be more in touch with my patient's experience. Sometimes when doctors tell their patients that they need to modify behaviors that are very difficut to modify, they do it a bit flippantly, and that maybe in the patient's head, their thinking that the doctor has no clue what their experience is like and doesn't take it to heart as much, whereas if the doctor really understood what they were asking of the patient, maybe they could express that and have a deeper impact on that patient. Anyway, I'm rambling, point being, I don't think doctors should be encouraged to participate in unhealthy habits, but we are all human and are bound to do something that we wouldn't reccomend to our patients, so maybe we can utilize our personal struggles to understand our patients at a deeper level and be able to connect more meaningfully with them when trying to help them overcome their struggles.

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, and I think you're absolutely right. Your advice will definitely carry more weight, seeing as you've gone through the struggle yourself.

My original point, and one we've kinda strayed from, is that my friend is just starting to smoke... It started with bumming an occasional cigarette, now he's starting to buy his own and smoking several a day. Far from a pack a day, I know, but this is how it starts. Knowing that he wants to become a doctor, I think he's making a bad decision.

PS, I actually just talked to him about it, and hopefully convinced him to lay off the cancer sticks.

[Depakote]

Doctors are not saints.

Yes it would great if every doc was their ideal body weight, didn't smoke, drink and did everything they were supposed to. But we're human and we don't suddenly stop being human when we get the letters behind our names, esp when we're working 80hr weeks in residency. We eat comfort food, we resort to the same stress habits that everyone else does.

This doesn't mean you can come in smelling like a pack of cigarettes and expect your patient to take you seriously if you tell them to quit smoking. You have to excersize some amount of common sense and professionalism, but your personal decisions and your professional life should remain separate.

[psipsina]

Originally Posted by FujiApple

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, and I think you're absolutely right. Your advice will definitely carry more weight, seeing as you've gone through the struggle yourself.

My original point, and one we've kinda strayed from, is that my friend is just starting to smoke... It started with bumming an occasional cigarette, now he's starting to buy his own and smoking several a day. Far from a pack a day, I know, but this is how it starts. Knowing that he wants to become a doctor, I think he's making a bad decision.

PS, I actually just talked to him about it, and hopefully convinced him to lay off the cancer sticks.

Nicotene is so surprisingly addictive, it can really sneak up on you, and your friend might not realize just how deep he is until its too late, and then will probably be in denial about it since it will be hard to face for a while. I think you are doing the right thing by talking to him and trying to keep this from turning into an addiction, but beware of crossing the line and alienating him by being too agressive about it. If he is alread hooked, he may be feeling pretty crappy about it and be sensitive to being judged about it. My little bro and his fiance both smoke, I gave them one big speach once, and then every once in a while I remind them of how much I love them and how much it frightens me that they smoke and then I let it go so I don't push them away. They've both tried to quit a few times but haven't had that one successful time yet. I hope that each time I remind them it plants the seed for them to try again sometime soon, and eventually one of those tries will be the one that works. I feel like if I push them away by being too agressive or preachy, then I won't be there to plant the little seeds. My two cents, good luck

[Karina 07]

It might be morally wrong *because* it leads patients to not take their advice seriously.

Just a thought.



(Also, clearly, nobody is a paragon of virtue, and everyone has their bad habits, but the fact that everyone has bad habits of some sort or other doesn't make the bad habits GOOD. For those of you pursuing the line of reasoning that it's too tough on doctors/they shouldn't be expected to... this isn't about expectations, it's about what's ideally right.)

[FutureDoctorJ]

Originally Posted by Karina 07

It might be morally wrong *because* it leads patients to not take their advice seriously.

Just a thought.



(Also, clearly, nobody is a paragon of virtue, and everyone has their bad habits, but the fact that everyone has bad habits of some sort or other doesn't make the bad habits GOOD. For those of you pursuing the line of reasoning that it's too tough on doctors/they shouldn't be expected to... this isn't about expectations, it's about what's ideally right.)

Well if the doc greeted patients with a pack of NEWPORTS in his jacket pocket yes. However, there is no difference from one using caffeine or nicotine morally wise IMO.

[spicedmanna]

Originally Posted by FutureDoctorJ

Well if the doc greeted patients with a pack of NEWPORTS in his jacket pocket yes. However, there is no difference from one using caffeine or nicotine morally wise IMO.

Well, the only problem with your argument, if you are connecting the morality of the consumption of a product (i.e., coffee, tobacco) with a doctor's commitment to promoting wellness in himself and others, is that clinical studies have indicated that greater than 90% of people studied who smoke cigarettes eventually develop COPD. Drinking coffee in excess can certainly be detrimental, but I don't think drinking one cup a day really impacts one's overall wellness or mortality rate. Indeed, there are studies that indicate beneficial effects of drinking coffee/tea.

[DrZeke]

I used to go to a Chest Hospital for my asthma, and whenever I would walk up to the main entrance, I was shocked and disappointed by the amount of employees (nurses, orderly's...) who were smoking. When you see emphysema patients and people sucking down oxygen day in day out, you think that would be incentive, but I guess some people are just hooked...

Either way, I agree, it's not immoral, because doctors are human. Yes, they should lead by example, so it's hippocritical, but what can you do?

[spicedmanna]

Originally Posted by jessy_erin

I used to go to a Chest Hospital for my asthma, and whenever I would walk up to the main entrance, I was shocked and disappointed by the amount of employees (nurses, orderly's...) who were smoking. When you see emphysema patients and people sucking down oxygen day in day out, you think that would be incentive, but I guess some people are just hooked...

Yeah, I feel you. I used to work at the clinical center (building 10) at NIH and was floored by the amount of people who smoked around the builiding, particularly the sun deck. It seemed as if very few professions at the center were immune: I saw clinicians, researchers, nurses, and *gasp* respiratory therapists. Talk about hypocracy at the Nation's top healthcare research facility.

I couldn't resolve that illogic until I became a smoker myself. Cigarette tobacco is darn addictive, both chemically and psychologically. Most people would rather die than quit. And that's precisely what happens in the majority of cases of people who continue to smoke: slow asphixiation resulting from COPD, or lung cancer. I have watched people with COPD exacerbation and people with end-stage lung cancer and they look like they are in such misery from the "oxygen hunger". A lot of people put in DNR's for that. So, yeah, basically nothing works to help a person quit smoking unless they are completely willing to quit; that's the bottom line. BTW, I quit a long time ago, thank God.

Originally Posted by jessy_erin

Either way, I agree, it's not immoral, because doctors are human. Yes, they should lead by example, so it's hippocritical, but what can you do?

You know, I don't even want to assign morality to the smoking phenomenon. Nobody should smoke. Period. It's known clinically to hasten death and suffering. As doctors, what we can do is to set a good example by not smoking, by breaking through the noise made by the "big tobacco" and delivering the facts, and being clear to our patients just how terrible smoking can be to their health. A message delivered by someone who has their integrity intact is much louder and clear, in my opinion; it's tough to be a strong advocate for the patient when a doctor is undermining their own health through the same smoking addiction that plagues their patients. Education and prevention must start early. But you are right, it's going to be a tough battle to say the least.

[DrZeke]

Originally Posted by spicedmanna

Yeah, I feel you. I used to work at the clinical center (building 10) at NIH and was floored by the amount of people who smoked around the builiding, particularly the sun deck. It seemed as if very few professions at the center were immune: I saw clinicians, researchers, nurses, and *gasp* respiratory therapists. Talk about hypocracy at the Nation's top healthcare research facility.

I couldn't resolve that illogic until I became a smoker myself. Cigarette tobacco is darn addictive, both chemically and psychologically. Most people would rather die than quit. And that's precisely what happens in the majority of cases of people who continue to smoke: slow asphixiation resulting from COPD, or lung cancer. I have watched people with COPD exacerbation and people with end-stage lung cancer and they look like they are in such misery from the "oxygen hunger". A lot of people put in DNR's for that. So, yeah, basically nothing works to help a person quit smoking unless they are completely willing to quit; that's the bottom line. BTW, I quit a long time ago, thank God.



You know, I don't even want to assign morality to the smoking phenomenon. Nobody should smoke. Period. It's known clinically to hasten death and suffering. As doctors, what we can do is to set a good example by not smoking, by breaking through the noise made by the "big tobacco" and delivering the facts, and being clear to our patients just how terrible smoking can be to their health. A message delivered by someone who has their integrity intact is much louder and clear, in my opinion; it's tough to be a strong advocate for the patient when a doctor is undermining their own health through the same smoking addiction that plagues their patients. Education and prevention must start early. But you are right, it's going to be a tough battle to say the least.

Very well said spiced mama. I agree with you, I just didn't go so far as to say the part about leading by example, because like with the weight thing, sometimes that stuff is hard. As a med student, I know I'll be hitting the gym and trying to eat right, but sometimes we find ourselves in a rut, with bad habits or because of genetics and weight control is difficult. I'm in pretty bad shape right now - I haven't worked out in a while, and I'm heavy for me...although I'm still within the normal weight range. LOL, apps have been stressful...

I guess why I'm bringing up weight is because that is something that doctors should lead by example with as well, but it can be hard for many reasons, and that's why I say we are human.

But, in the case of smoking, I think leading by example is important, and I don't have much sympathy for smokers...I do think it has a lot to do with will-power. Like you said, people will quit when they are ready. So, yeah, NOBODY should smoke

[newlifedrj]

I think that this is completly morally wrong, and Doctors should reconsider if they want to smoke or not. It is a choice a choice that Doctors should make for morals, and their patients. How can a doctor who smokes 2 packs a day and smells like an ash tray tell one of his patients who is suffering from severe lung cancer to stop smoking??? huh huh, the patient is gonna hear what the doctor tells him and then completly forget it later because he knows that the Doctor is a complete hippocrite. So the patient lets say continues smoking and dies in the end due to a Doctor that could have saved him by not smoking but instead chose to smoke and influence a patient in a way that lead him to his death!!! Just my 2 centz...

[e_phn]

shouldn't the doctors who smoke cigarettes set a good example (by not smoking) for everyone to follow? hopefully they know what is right or wrong. moreover, smoking is bad for your health, anyway.

edit: i wasn't reading anyone's posts, so i pretty much reiterated what some people had said....

[notdeadyet]

Physicians are every-day slobs like the rest of us. No wings, no halo's, no magic powers. They have the same vices and problems that the rest of the public has.

The sooner folks stop elevating physicians on unfair pedestals, the less disappointed they'll be.

[nevins]

"I think it would be wrong if the doctor smokes him/herself and told other people not to smoke."
Now how do you figure this one. All patient's should be advised of the harms of smoking, to not start, or to quit; assistance should be offered for those who wish to quit. This is basic universal health care. Why should it be withheld merely because the physician himself is a smoker? Would it be hypocritical of the physician smoker? Only if the physician were critical of the patient. If the physician is acting as an agent for the patient's health and is providing the advice because it is sound then there can be no hypocritical component.

[Falco2525]

you would think physicians would know the health benefits of not smoking and that should be enough...morally no

[MadameLULU]

i find this interesting b/c my respiratory professor smokes. im sure the patients at the VA with COPD take her seriously....