Nonsurvival procedures...?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
LeahUnderTheSea

LeahUnderTheSea

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
I'm thinking about applying to a few different vet schools and am trying to tease apart which ones use research animals for non-survival procedures (i.e. learning to do a surgery on an animal and then euthanizing it), and which ones use shelter animals or other pets scheduled for euthanasia anyway or who actually need the surgeries.

I'm torn. I know performing surgeries on live animals are invaluable learning experiences, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around dogs, for instance, that are bred for that purpose only.

What does your school do? And what are your feelings about it?
Members don't see this ad.
 
Tennessee has one non-survival surgery elective offered in the third year using research beagles. All other surgeries are done on animals that get to wake up--mainly shelter animals being spayed and neutered.

I do not plan to take the elective. I have no plans to be a surgeon.

Since you are trying to determine what, if anything, this means to you, I am not going to share my feelings about it because I think that will serve as a distraction to your getting information about each school. In the end, you need to make your own decision anyway.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
LeahUnderTheSea said:
What does your school do? And what are your feelings about it?
Click to expand...

Glasgow University (Scotland) is an AVMA accredited vet school. Terminal surgeries are not part of the curriculum. You do surgery on client-owned or shelter-owned animals, but far fewer surgeries compared to the US vet schools. However, you are expected to get surgical experience on client-owned animals outside of vet school at several British private practices or shelters.
 
Michigan State University does non-recovery surgeries on beagles that have been bred specifically for that purpose. I believe each student does 2 non-recovery, and then recovery spay/neuter surgeries on shelter animals. This is not an elective, although there is an "alternative" experience. As I have found out from a few people planning to do the alternative, it's more like punishment. You can't take boards with everyone else, or even walk at graduation. It's a lot of extra work, and really isn't a worthwhile experience.
I'm not happy about doing terminal surgery because these dogs were expressly bred for this purpose, but I see the necessity in general. I just wish they would let us use shelter dogs that would definitely have been euthanized anyway. I do know that the beagles are treated with respect, and a candle-light ceremony is held for them at the end of the semester.
I'm freaked out at the prospect of doing surgery at all, and I know that whatever poor pup ends up as my first surgery probably won't want to recover. I've heard horror stories of ligated ureters, huge cutting mistakes, and hack artists on these surgeries so I definitely know why it's done. Unlike medical students, we are expected to be able to perform surgery immediately upon graduation. My professors have already let us know how scary they think that is. I would much rather get my first real experience on a dog that is not someone's beloved pet. Opinions differ wildly on this and I'm not saying mine is any better than the next. Hope this helps.
 
At the U of MN, there is one course with a non-survival surgery, but students can opt to replace the surgery with surgical observations and case write-ups instead. The animals used are beagles that are at the end of their research careers and have been used for non-invasive procedures (i.e. feeding trials). The schools opts to use these animals rather than shelter animals because they are then used as organ donor animals for procedures performed in the hospital such as retinal transplants. Organ donor animals have to have a well-documented history, so to be used for both terminal surgeries and organ donation, they have to be research animals.

The cadavers are also extensively used for labs like dental labs and neurology labs.

Shelter dogs and cats are used for the spay/neuter labs.

I haven't decided yet, but I suspect that when it comes down to it, I won't be able to perform the terminal surgery.
 
Spartanvet4cows said:
Michigan State University does non-recovery surgeries on beagles that have been bred specifically for that purpose. I believe each student does 2 non-recovery, and then recovery spay/neuter surgeries on shelter animals. This is not an elective, although there is an "alternative" experience. As I have found out from a few people planning to do the alternative, it's more like punishment. You can't take boards with everyone else, or even walk at graduation. It's a lot of extra work, and really isn't a worthwhile experience.
I'm not happy about doing terminal surgery because these dogs were expressly bred for this purpose, but I see the necessity in general. I just wish they would let us use shelter dogs that would definitely have been euthanized anyway. I do know that the beagles are treated with respect, and a candle-light ceremony is held for them at the end of the semester.
I'm freaked out at the prospect of doing surgery at all, and I know that whatever poor pup ends up as my first surgery probably won't want to recover. I've heard horror stories of ligated ureters, huge cutting mistakes, and hack artists on these surgeries so I definitely know why it's done. Unlike medical students, we are expected to be able to perform surgery immediately upon graduation. My professors have already let us know how scary they think that is. I would much rather get my first real experience on a dog that is not someone's beloved pet. Opinions differ wildly on this and I'm not saying mine is any better than the next. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


I can't believe they BREED dogs for terminal surgeries :eek:

We don't do any terminal surgeries and I think it would be good if we did- on animals that were going to be put to sleep anyway! I think their deaths may as well have some educational purpose rather than just dying in vain.

But breeding them for the purpose seems sick, not to mention expensive and wasteful with all those poor readily available shelter dogs. :thumbdown:
 
StealthDog said:
At the U of MN, there is one course with a non-survival surgery, but students can opt to replace the surgery with surgical observations and case write-ups instead. The animals used are beagles that are at the end of their research careers and have been used for non-invasive procedures (i.e. feeding trials). The schools opts to use these animals rather than shelter animals because they are then used as organ donor animals for procedures performed in the hospital such as retinal transplants. Organ donor animals have to have a well-documented history, so to be used for both terminal surgeries and organ donation, they have to be research animals.

The cadavers are also extensively used for labs like dental labs and neurology labs.

Shelter dogs and cats are used for the spay/neuter labs.

I haven't decided yet, but I suspect that when it comes down to it, I won't be able to perform the terminal surgery.
Click to expand...

Hmm okay just read this one, its good they use them for other things as well. Still makes my skin crawl though!!!
 
Hollycozza said:
I can't believe they BREED dogs for terminal surgeries.
Click to expand...

They're not bred specifically for terminal surgeries, they're bred for laboratory use in general. But yeah, the situation sucks. And almost everyone with any sense recognizes it would be better to use shelter animals that are going to be euthanized anyway for this purpose.

But politics is usually not decided by anyone with any sense. Several groups, including some animal rights groups decided we shouldn't use unwanted animals for this since at one time they may have been someone's pet. And many shelters worry about the bad PR if shelter animals were used for research or teaching.

So instead, these animals are just euthanized and we have to turn around and breed even more animals to use for laboratories and teaching. And with lab dogs going for about $1000 each in some situations, all this is much more expensive and guess who pays for that?
 
Hollycozza - I couldn't agree with you more on that front. It has to do with a law that basically requires that you can't use shelter dogs for "research" purposes. It was meant to protect adobtable dogs from being sold to shady dealers and such, but now it's hurting the academic world. I'm pretty sure that residents use at least some of the beagles for other things after the surgery, so we're not the only ones that use them. I'm pretty sure some of the animals have been involved in trials at some point. I think they are purchased from a company that breeds for research colonies. It sucks, really and I know I'm going to bawl like a baby when I have to put the animals to sleep. I have a hard enough time walking by the cages with the beagles on surgery mornings. I get misty every time. :(
 
I totally agree with what has been said. It really raises my hackles, what has happened to what animals we can use and where we can get them.

We used to be able to use shelter dogs as teaching dogs (things like palpation, physical exam practice, catheter placement, spay/neuter, etc, nothing terminal, we don't even do terminal stuff here at Va-Md) and then try to adopt them out. Usually we did - we could only use animals that were about to be euthanized anyway and were of good temperament. So in essence, the animals got a second chance. But, as always, AVAR and PETA and all those idiots petitioned and bullied the VA lawmakers and got it made illegal to use shelter animals. Why? I don't know. They're idiots. So now, in order to teach, we need to use purpose-bred dogs. And if they can't be adopted out after their 3 -year term of service, guess what has to happen, since we lawfully cannot use them more than that? At least, if we could still use shelter animals, we would be giving second chances. Not anymore. Lord....I cannot stand animal rights activists. Animal welfare? By all means. But not stuff like this that doesn't help anyone.
 
Thanks so much for all of your opinions, and the links too. I've done a bit more research, and it seems like a lot of the schools in the states, like Tufts, have moved past using research animals for terminal surgeries, or like a lot of your schools, opt not to do terminal surgeries at all.

It's frustrating in Canada, because we don't have much choice about which school we go to, since you're not allowed to apply to one that doesn't cover your province of residence. And Guelph does have their students perform "nonsurvival" procedures on beagles. I love that term too, "nonsurvival". Just say terminal for goodness sake.

I can't help but agree with this:

WhtsThFrequency said:
Animal welfare? By all means. But not stuff like this that doesn't help anyone.
Click to expand...

A lot of the time people are so passionate about the immediate goal that they don't even bother trying to imagine the long term implications. And that's bad for everyone involved. :mad:

Anyway, thanks again for this great discussion. It's nice to know that this is something that (a) not every school does, and (b) that isn't easy for everyone. :)
 
Like critter said, we don't have to do terminal surgeries here at TN. At first, when I went to my Auburn interview, and they asked me about terminal surgeries, I assumed that they were performed on shelter animals. They explained why they weren't, which was pretty much the same reason Bill59 said. (They could be someone's pet, etc.)

At first, when I came to vet school, I was opposed to terminal surgeries, but now I think I may take that class. Not because it will be easy to terminate an otherwise healthy animal's life, but because it would be a good learning experience for me. These beagles serve a noble purpose in life. They provide necessary information that helps all our pets and ourselves lead better lives through pharmaceutical research. (At least the ones we get here at TN.) The will be euthanized anyway at the end of the research, and if their life can help another one be saved through education of future vets, then why not take the opportunity? It won't be easy, but I may just do it.

Also, we learn regular anesthesia, physical exam, and spay/neuter on adoptable animals from a local shelter. Many of the students adopt their first spay/neuter for themselves or their family!
 
Also, we learn regular anesthesia, physical exam, and spay/neuter on adoptable animals from a local shelter

Lucky :( We aren't allowed here in VA to use/keep shelters dogs for that, unless we are just speutering them for a rescue/adoption/the shelter itself. We need to use lab dogs due to recent legislation.
 
YOU ARE ALL SOOO LUCKY! Dear colleagues, what would you say if you can't even watch any operation during your schooling. Don't even mention that you want to perform it! Only way to learn surgery is to find some good older DVM in private practice who is willing to show you or if you have a luck even give it to you to do anything! Why is that? I really don't know!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

Incis0r
Would you allow clients to sit in on a minor surgical procedure?
2
Replies
61
Views
8K
iamapm
I
M
Vet Ophthalmologist - what is the most common procedure you perform?
Replies
2
Views
1K
racccjlm
racccjlm
C
What procedures and services are most profitable?
2
Replies
51
Views
13K
sumstorm
sumstorm
T
Procedures after graduation
Replies
3
Views
1K
Capella
Capella
Top