2.87 uGPA, 3.27gGPA raise uGPA to 3.0 or go striaght into SMP?

[Mcs0503]

Hi Everyone,

I am a nontrad at 31, AA, male and 31 years old. I have a 2.87 uGPA(Wayne State), 3.27 M.S in Cell Bio(Eastern Mich) and taught at college level for about 1.5 years or so.

1.)I have a critical question. Is it better for me to raise my uGPA to a 3.0 using a post-bacc and THEN go into an SMP?

2.)OR if I can matriculate into an SMP as I stand can will this trump the 2.87?

I have been chatting with the coordinator for the Wayne State BMS prog and she is aware of individuals that have matriculated with a uGPA the same as mine. Also she did say that my GPA is around the area of possible acceptance. I work at Wayne so I essentially get free tuition. At this point this is the difference between me studying in UG classes or the MCAT to matriculate in the program.

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[TriagePreMed]

Numbers are extremely low for both uGPA and gGPA. Have you addressed the reasons why?

I suggest post-bacc and then SMP.

 

[DrMidlife]

Wayne State has a good program, particularly if you want to go to med school there. If you get in their BMS, then I'd do that instead of more undergrad. There's a fair amount of discussion of this program in the postbac forum.

But I second the advice that you have to address any and all academic shortcomings before you start med school. If it takes a few more years of effort to figure out how to get straight A's in a heavy hard load of science (such as in the BMS), that's worth it. Getting in isn't the hardest part, not at all. It's also worth it to figure out how to get a 30+ on the MCAT whether they require it of you or not, because learning how to test well is critical.

Best of luck to you.

Edit: please don't plan on working during school, certainly not during the BMS. Please focus on your studies and get the most out of the opportunity. If this isn't financially feasible, then you should consider the disadvantaged student programs such as GEMS at Georgetown or similar at Wake Forest. More info in the postbac forum on these.

 

[Mcs0503]

Wayne State has a good program, particularly if you want to go to med school there. If you get in their BMS, then I'd do that instead of more undergrad. There's a fair amount of discussion of this program in the postbac forum.

But I second the advice that you have to address any and all academic shortcomings before you start med school. If it takes a few more years of effort to figure out how to get straight A's in a heavy hard load of science (such as in the BMS), that's worth it. Getting in isn't the hardest part, not at all. It's also worth it to figure out how to get a 30+ on the MCAT whether they require it of you or not, because learning how to test well is critical.

Best of luck to you.

Ok this makes sense. But how would I go about doing this? You're talking about study skills and etc.

Also I am leaning towards postbacc then SMP. I want to remove all doubt about my record and secondly, a 2.8 is still a black eye. On the other hand how realistically could I raise my GPA? I am aiming to take the 22 credits it would take to raise to a 3.0. Of course though that is low as well.

I am very aware that my numbers are low and that I need some work I am pondering the best course of action.

 

[Mcs0503]

Wayne State has a good program, particularly if you want to go to med school there. If you get in their BMS, then I'd do that instead of more undergrad. There's a fair amount of discussion of this program in the postbac forum.

But I second the advice that you have to address any and all academic shortcomings before you start med school. If it takes a few more years of effort to figure out how to get straight A's in a heavy hard load of science (such as in the BMS), that's worth it. Getting in isn't the hardest part, not at all. It's also worth it to figure out how to get a 30+ on the MCAT whether they require it of you or not, because learning how to test well is critical.

Best of luck to you.

Edit: please don't plan on working during school, certainly not during the BMS. Please focus on your studies and get the most out of the opportunity. If this isn't financially feasible, then you should consider the disadvantaged student programs such as GEMS at Georgetown or similar at Wake Forest. More info in the postbac forum on these.

I dont know if I have a choice to not work. I am a nontrad in every sense of the word. I have a job that luckily has ALOT of downtime where I can study. I also am able to take the credits I need in the morning before work.

 

[Mcs0503]

Wayne State has a good program, particularly if you want to go to med school there. If you get in their BMS, then I'd do that instead of more undergrad. There's a fair amount of discussion of this program in the postbac forum.

But I second the advice that you have to address any and all academic shortcomings before you start med school. If it takes a few more years of effort to figure out how to get straight A's in a heavy hard load of science (such as in the BMS), that's worth it. Getting in isn't the hardest part, not at all. It's also worth it to figure out how to get a 30+ on the MCAT whether they require it of you or not, because learning how to test well is critical.

Best of luck to you.

Edit: please don't plan on working during school, certainly not during the BMS. Please focus on your studies and get the most out of the opportunity. If this isn't financially feasible, then you should consider the disadvantaged student programs such as GEMS at Georgetown or similar at Wake Forest. More info in the postbac forum on these.

I just saw your stats you're an inspiration! So I see you took an SMP as well?

 

[DrMidlife]

I just saw your stats you're an inspiration! So I see you took an SMP as well?

Cross your fingers that your path into med school isn't anything like mine: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10984326#post10984326

 

[DrMidlife]

I dont know if I have a choice to not work. I am a nontrad in every sense of the word. I have a job that luckily has ALOT of downtime where I can study. I also am able to take the credits I need in the morning before work.

I recommend that you look harder for ways to solve these problems, if you want to get in and be successful. What do other students do? What do other schools do? The answers are here, and they are plentiful, if you spend some time finding them.

 

[Mcs0503]

Cross your fingers that your path into med school isn't anything like mine: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10984326#post10984326

Very glad to hear you overcame cancer. I work at the Cancer Institute at Wayne so Im near it everyday.

You had a tough road. Congrats on your success.

So how does one address shortcomings? I can't quit my job like you could . luckily I get free tuition because of it.

 

[Mcs0503]

I recommend that you look harder for ways to solve these problems, if you want to get in and be successful. What do other students do? What do other schools do? The answers are here, and they are plentiful, if you spend some time finding them.

I don't see them as problems though. Are you saying it is impossible in terms of difficulty to take 2 SMP classes a semester and work?
I have been looking on these boards alot and it is very helpful.

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't see them as problems though. Are you saying it is impossible in terms of difficulty to take 2 SMP classes a semester and work?

Not at all impossible to do that, but then it's not an SMP. It's a part time course load.

The whole point of an SMP is to do the first year of med school (or as close to the first year of med school as possible) as an audition for med school. It lets med schools evaluate you against med students, in lieu of a favorable evaluation against undergrads. If you go part time, then it's no longer a basis for that second chance comparison.

If you're going to do part time, then do undergrad. After you've proven (to yourself, first and foremost) that you can get and sustain a competitive GPA (3.7+) in hard science classes, then please find a way to demonstrate such a capability in a full time, heavy science load for a year or more: such as the BMS.

And I'll repeat: please don't settle for a below average MCAT, even if you're able to get in with less. Getting in isn't the same as being ready.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Mcs0503]

Not at all impossible to do that, but then it's not an SMP. It's a part time course load.

The whole point of an SMP is to do the first year of med school (or as close to the first year of med school as possible) as an audition for med school. It lets med schools evaluate you against med students, in lieu of a favorable evaluation against undergrads. If you go part time, then it's no longer a basis for that second chance comparison.

If you're going to do part time, then do undergrad. After you've proven (to yourself, first and foremost) that you can get and sustain a competitive GPA (3.7+) in hard science classes, then please find a way to demonstrate such a capability in a full time, heavy science load for a year or more: such as the BMS And I'll repeat: please don't settle for a below average MCAT, even if you're able to get in with less. Getting in isn't the same as being ready.

Best of luck to you.

I was thinking about that the other day .

Office of Graduate Scholars - Basic Medical Science
http://gradprograms.med.wayne.edu/program-spotlight.php?id=34

Well the thing is this is a 2 year program. I will be on track with about 6-8 credits a semester.

Take a look and tell me what you think.

 

[DrMidlife]

Thing one: what the WSU biomedical sciences department will let you do on the way to a plan B masters.

Thing two: what med schools (including WSU) care about when evaluating your performance in a plan B masters.

Not the same thing, necessarily. Right?

At EVMS we took 16 credits first semester, 18 second semester, including completing a library thesis. Take away the library thesis, add anatomy and several other classes, and that's what the M1's did. I don't know of any med schools that allow part time study.

Doing the Wayne State BMS in a year is quite SMP-like and quite likely to improve your chances at med school (if you get great grades). Otherwise it's just more grad school, neither here nor there.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Mcs0503]

Thing one: what the WSU biomedical sciences department will let you do on the way to a plan B masters.

Thing two: what med schools (including WSU) care about when evaluating your performance in a plan B masters.

Not the same thing, necessarily. Right?

At EVMS we took 16 credits first semester, 18 second semester, including completing a library thesis. Take away the library thesis, add anatomy and several other classes, and that's what the M1's did. I don't know of any med schools that allow part time study.

Doing the Wayne State BMS in a year is quite SMP-like and quite likely to improve your chances at med school (if you get great grades). Otherwise it's just more grad school, neither here nor there.

Best of luck to you.

I see...thanks for the input.

So why is this thing set up as a 2yr degree? Was yours set up the same way and you decided to do it in one yr?

 

[BPlaysItCool]

I was thinking about that the other day .

Office of Graduate Scholars - Basic Medical Science
http://gradprograms.med.wayne.edu/program-spotlight.php?id=34

Well the thing is this is a 2 year program. I will be on track with about 6-8 credits a semester.

Take a look and tell me what you think.

Hey man. I hope Dr.Midlife gets back to you on this. PM her if she forgets to.

Me and her go way back. And we essentially faced the same credentialing questions. She went one direction, I another, and we're both in med school. Very nearly the same one.

She is telling you straight about the SMP route. It is the equivalent of driving straight to the hole and dunking on the defense. Nuts in their face. When they knew ahead of time you were going to so.

You can pick up the charge. You can get stuffed, forget the open guy. etc. But the pay off is money. And it's the quckest game changer in the low gpa play book.

I'm 37. And a rising 2nd year. And took the much more conservative approah. Think white dudes from farmville indiana with horned rimmed glasses. Passing furiously. Meticulously wearing down the defence. Until some gets an open set shot. Took me 7 years. Could of done it in 5 if I didn't get f'd up at work hoisting rotund american bodies around the hospital. Like giant fat writhing slugs. I can't go into primary care because of it. I just don't care about people eating themselves to death. I'm digressing.

But I could not stop working to finance it. Not conscientiously. As a husband. It is possible to scrape some kind of existence out doing it on credit. But I don't see that type of thing happening too often. Or hear of it even. SMP's are generally for the upper middle class. For people with at least some savings. As is med school in general come to think of it.

That's something that's much more managable as a future MD than as an MD hopeful.

One thing that she says that is really true, is how one must be ready. Psychologically as well. It's pretty tough. I think there's an ego bias into making it seem easy.

Although the Energy of Activation (yes I did....just dork out) is definitely getting in. The reaction is still endothermic. (ok just punch me in the nose).

Good luck figuring it out. I think the program you linked looks great. Wayne has a great medcial program. And they tend to like their own. I'd say go for it.

edit. damn I type slow as f@ck. she already answered.

 

[Mcs0503]

Hey man. I hope Dr.Midlife gets back to you on this. PM her if she forgets to.

Me and her go way back. And we essentially faced the same credentialing questions. She went one direction, I another, and we're both in med school. Very nearly the same one.

She is telling you straight about the SMP route. It is the equivalent of driving straight to the hole and dunking on the defense. Nuts in their face. When they knew ahead of time you were going to so.



You can pick up the charge. You can get stuffed, forget the open guy. etc. But the pay off is money. And it's the quckest game changer in the low gpa play book.

I'm 37. And a rising 2nd year. And took the much more conservative approah. Think white dudes from farmville indiana with horned rimmed glasses. Passing furiously. Meticulously wearing down the defence. Until some gets an open set shot. Took me 7 years. Could of done it in 5 if I didn't get f'd up at work hoisting rotund american bodies around the hospital. Like giant fat writhing slugs. I can't go into primary care because of it. I just don't care about people eating themselves to death. I'm digressing.

But I could not stop working to finance it. Not conscientiously. As a husband. It is possible to scrape some kind of existence out doing it on credit. But I don't see that type of thing happening too often. Or hear of it even. SMP's are generally for the upper middle class. For people with at least some savings. As is med school in general come to think of it.

That's something that's much more managable as a future MD than as an MD hopeful.

One thing that she says that is really true, is how one must be ready. Psychologically as well. It's pretty tough. I think there's an ego bias into making it seem easy.

Although the Energy of Activation (yes I did....just dork out) is definitely getting in. The reaction is still endothermic. (ok just punch me in the nose).

Good luck figuring it out. I think the program you linked looks great. Wayne has a great medcial program. And they tend to like their own. I'd say go for it.

edit. damn I type slow as f@ck. she already answered.

Wow thanks for this. So you think I am shooting myself in the foot taking 6 creds instead of 12 or more? I may PM you as well.

So you WORKED while doing the SMP you did? How did you manage it? 12 credits? 6?

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Wow thanks for this. So you think I am shooting myself in the foot taking 6 creds instead of 12 or more? I may PM you as well.

So you WORKED while doing the SMP you did? How did you manage it? 12 credits? 6?

Yeah. Sorry. My conversational skills are limited to my own metaphorical tastes without regard for detail of what people are saying--including myself.

I worked full time. 40-50 hours a week at 2 jobs. while doing 12 hours a semester or so. give or take. all undergrad work. Had 2 split careers. one fizzled without a degree. Came back to get the degree. Explored heavily the idea of doing an smp. but couldn't justify it with my financial clout. which is like zero. i was barely making ends meet in san francisco. all my money belongs to the land owning class there.

I think you should do what makes sense to you. you can do it either way. you just have to keep improving your academic record. until you get your shot.

if someone puts in the effort that me or Dr.midlife put in. you'll get your shot. plus. you're a brother. that's like being a mohican in this game. If you get your creds up to snuff. somebody will take a chance on you. no gaurantee. But if your want it. you can get it. just depends if you decide to quit before that happens.

 

[Eik Ooc]

But if your want it. you can get it. just depends if you decide to quit before that happens.

It was easy getting myself to this point. I hardly remember the last two years of 50 hour work weeks and 18 hour semesters let alone the nearly sleeping on my feet ER volunteer work. Doing *this* another two years...I can't imagine.

I rather think that quitting your job and taking private loans has the true utility of a scorched earth tactic: no retreat.

 

[Scottish Chap]

And I'll repeat: please don't settle for a below average MCAT, even if you're able to get in with less. Getting in isn't the same as being ready.

Not sure that I agree with this. While I'm definitely a fan of preparedness, I found the MCAT to be a hurdle only, and completely irrelevant to one's performance in medical school, the USMLE, and as a physician (BTW, I had an average MCAT). You have to give the test respect because medical schools take it very seriously but it's just a test and, if the medical school admits you, you should be just fine if you apply yourself (if you don't medical school will bury you instantly). Bottom line: good test takers tend to stay good test takers, but anyone can have a bad day, and the occasional person can get lucky.

 

[DrMidlife]

Not sure that I agree with this. While I'm definitely a fan of preparedness, I found the MCAT to be a hurdle only, and completely irrelevant to one's performance in medical school, the USMLE, and as a physician (BTW, I had an average MCAT). You have to give the test respect because medical schools take it very seriously but it's just a test and, if the medical school admits you, you should be just fine if you apply yourself (if you don't medical school will bury you instantly). Bottom line: good test takers tend to stay good test takers, but anyone can have a bad day, and the occasional person can get lucky.

I appreciate your informed input here. I'm reacting (overreacting?) to a number of people on SDN and in reality who have an MCAT in the low 20's, and are not in any hurry to retake if they don't have to. Mostly these are also low-GPA comebacks.

And I'm reacting to having done one single physio shelf so far, and to being around a lot of M2's for the last month or so, as they do step 1 prep, which makes MCAT prep look like kindergarten.

So, I'm advocating for mastering hurdle jumping skills as part of med school prep. From where I sit I think it's crucial to have the experience of successfully preparing for a long-ish standardized exam such that a bad test day doesn't cost more than, what, a standard deviation.

Or let me put it another way: would you want to go into a board exam having never done well on any hours-long test?

Best of luck to you.

 

[Mcs0503]

Yeah. Sorry. My conversational skills are limited to my own metaphorical tastes without regard for detail of what people are saying--including myself.

I worked full time. 40-50 hours a week at 2 jobs. while doing 12 hours a semester or so. give or take. all undergrad work. Had 2 split careers. one fizzled without a degree. Came back to get the degree. Explored heavily the idea of doing an smp. but couldn't justify it with my financial clout. which is like zero. i was barely making ends meet in san francisco. all my money belongs to the land owning class there.

I think you should do what makes sense to you. you can do it either way. you just have to keep improving your academic record. until you get your shot.



if someone puts in the effort that me or Dr.midlife put in. you'll get your shot. plus. you're a brother. that's like being a mohican in this game. If you get your creds up to snuff. somebody will take a chance on you. no gaurantee. But if your want it. you can get it. just depends if you decide to quit before that happens.

Dam bro! 40-50 AND 12 creds? You must have worked mostly at night! Thanks for your input. I wish I could send you PMs!

Thanks everyone too! I don't know if I could take that many credits(12) anyway as my work schedule just wont allow for some classes to be taken.

Also I am still wondering this how does one go about assessing academic deficiencies anyhow?

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Dam bro! 40-50 AND 12 creds? You must have worked mostly at night! Thanks for your input. I wish I could send you PMs!

Thanks everyone too! I don't know if I could take that many credits(12) anyway as my work schedule just wont allow for some classes to be taken.

Also I am still wondering this how does one go about assessing academic deficiencies anyhow?

I accidentally set my messaging to restricted status. I think it's fixed.

You shouldn't take 12 credits of that level of courses. I always had a fluff course in the mix.

There's a machismo, which might have some reality to it, that tells you to kill yourself. I don't agree with that notion. I suffered poor health from my course of work/study. Many people brag about these things here and leave out the fact that they're a slob with ****ty or non-existant relationships. That's part of medical culture unfortunately. A bunch of unreflective, overly ambititous, stressed out slobs, charged with the responsibility of convincing people to abide their health.

In this light. Assessing one's deficiencies is tenuous. Given that achieving the goal can very easily leave one grossly deficient as a human.

You're making a deal with the devil here. No way around it. Certainly crafty negotiation to loose as little as possible of yourself, would be a good outcome. Hard to know where the line is when you your going before judge and jury to even have the option of going forward.

Hard to know.

 

[Mcs0503]

I accidentally set my messaging to restricted status. I think it's fixed.

You shouldn't take 12 credits of that level of courses. I always had a fluff course in the mix.

There's a machismo, which might have some reality to it, that tells you to kill yourself. I don't agree with that notion. I suffered poor health from my course of work/study. Many people brag about these things here and leave out the fact that they're a slob with ****ty or non-existant relationships. That's part of medical culture unfortunately. A bunch of unreflective, overly ambititous, stressed out slobs, charged with the responsibility of convincing people to abide their health.

In this light. Assessing one's deficiencies is tenuous. Given that achieving the goal can very easily leave one grossly deficient as a human.

You're making a deal with the devil here. No way around it. Certainly crafty negotiation to loose as little as possible of yourself, would be a good outcome. Hard to know where the line is when you your going before judge and jury to even have the option of going forward.

Hard to know.

Yeah I mean It seems like I am in the same spot you were financially. i may be working EVEN MORE. 6-8 creds Post bacc and SMP seems reasonable to me.

Edit: Not that I dscount anyone's advice here. I may be calling the office at Wayne to see what they say about course load. It is a valid point.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Yeah I mean It seems like I am in the same spot you were financially. i may be working EVEN MORE. 6-8 creds Post bacc and SMP seems reasonable to me.

Edit: Not that I dscount anyone's advice here. I may be calling the office at Wayne to see what they say about course load. It is a valid point.

It does seem reasonable. Just explain yourself working/school self in your personal statement. you must do well in the courses you are taking. If you get A's you're good. It'd be hard for them to say you couldn't do well in more course hours in your have to work full-time.

Anyone you insists you must go 70 G' in the hole and loose all of your financial ability to go forward with an application cycle--hugely expensive by the way--just to be considered worthy or consideration.... Well, f@ck them.

I'm not hating on those who go that route. It takes somes nuts. But it's not the only way. I submit myself as exhibit A in that claim.

But you've got to kill the coursework you are doing to pull it off. You have to. And perform on the MCAT. Or they move on to the guy who did bet huge on the SMP. That's the hot seat your in. Buckle up. Get comfrotable.

 

[Reno]

Hey man. I hope Dr.Midlife gets back to you on this. PM her if she forgets to.

Me and her go way back. And we essentially faced the same credentialing questions. She went one direction, I another, and we're both in med school. Very nearly the same one.

She is telling you straight about the SMP route. It is the equivalent of driving straight to the hole and dunking on the defense. Nuts in their face. When they knew ahead of time you were going to so.

You can pick up the charge. You can get stuffed, forget the open guy. etc. But the pay off is money. And it's the quckest game changer in the low gpa play book.

I'm 37. And a rising 2nd year. And took the much more conservative approah. Think white dudes from farmville indiana with horned rimmed glasses. Passing furiously. Meticulously wearing down the defence. Until some gets an open set shot. Took me 7 years. Could of done it in 5 if I didn't get f'd up at work hoisting rotund american bodies around the hospital. Like giant fat writhing slugs. I can't go into primary care because of it. I just don't care about people eating themselves to death. I'm digressing.

But I could not stop working to finance it. Not conscientiously. As a husband. It is possible to scrape some kind of existence out doing it on credit. But I don't see that type of thing happening too often. Or hear of it even. SMP's are generally for the upper middle class. For people with at least some savings. As is med school in general come to think of it.

That's something that's much more managable as a future MD than as an MD hopeful.

One thing that she says that is really true, is how one must be ready. Psychologically as well. It's pretty tough. I think there's an ego bias into making it seem easy.

Although the Energy of Activation (yes I did....just dork out) is definitely getting in. The reaction is still endothermic. (ok just punch me in the nose).

Good luck figuring it out. I think the program you linked looks great. Wayne has a great medcial program. And they tend to like their own. I'd say go for it.

edit. damn I type slow as f@ck. she already answered.

Ahahahahahhah I LOVE that basketball / SMP analogy. Good advice and interesting perspective all around in this post, thanks for sharing!