2008 MD/PhD Match

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gstrub said:
What program? Do you know what they were applying for? That blows...
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To be fair, they did match, but into prelim spots. I assume D&G either got an incomplete list via PM or did not want to embarass the program/director.
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unmatched2008 said:
I assume D&G either got an incomplete list via PM or did not want to embarass the program/director.
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To be fair to the program (and no, it isn't mine), I don't think it reflects particularly poorly on the program for some of its students not to have matched. There are quite a few variables in the match and I think it depends more on the individual applicant than on the program they're coming from. Maybe these applicants who didn't match were going after a very competitive residency like derm or radonc and only ranked a few programs. Maybe they completely blew it on Step I or were terrible at interviewing. Maybe they were just unlucky. I don't think a couple of students not matching from a MD/PhD program is necessarily a referendum on that program.
 
unmatched2008 said:
To be fair, they did match, but into prelim spots. I assume D&G either got an incomplete list via PM or did not want to embarass the program/director.
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Some guy who PM'ed me didn't reply to me when I asked for a clarification in regards to the match list for their program, because I couldn't believe that a number greater than one got prelim positions only. The alternative explanation is that these prelim positions referred to those obtained by others in their match list that also received advanced residency positions i.e. dermatology or ophthalmology, of which there was a direct one-to-one correlation between listed advanced positions and prelim positions. Without clarification, the match list from that particular program is incomplete.

In practice, I do not exclude data to protect a particular program or director, and if I did, that would make a mockery of this entire study, and draw into serious question my integrity as a researcher.
 
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physicsnerd42 said:
To be fair to the program (and no, it isn't mine), but I don't think it reflects particularly poorly on the program for some of its students not to have matched. There are quite a few variables in the match and I think it depends more on the individual applicant than on the program they're coming from. Maybe these applicants who didn't match were going after a very competitive residency like derm or radonc and only ranked a few programs. Maybe they completely blew it on Step I or were terrible at interviewing. Maybe they were just unlucky. I don't think a couple of students not matching from a MD/PhD program is necessarily a referendum on that program.
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Recommendations regarding whether or not your CV is up to standards in derm, radonc, or plastics are influenced by advisors, and poor advising can contribute to an unwise decision to attempt to match in a specialty out of your league. Even then, it is not the fault of the MD/PhD program - it is the medical schools advising system that fault can be ascribed, if any is deserved.

But it more often than not that it is the stubborn or misinformed student, not the ignorant or malicious advisor, that leads to this problem. The worst is the myth that a PhD grants a free ticket into any specialty - might have been true 20 years ago, but not so now.
 
This info comes from conversations with students at my interview.

Urology-MCG
Neurosurgery-Stanford
 
UCIrvine (source: website)

Neurology - Johns Hopkins
Radiology - UCLA

Albert Einstein (source: website)

Internal Medicine - NYP Columbia
Internal Medicine - NYP Cornell
Internal Medicine - NYP Cornell
Internal Medicine - NYP Cornell
Internal Medicine - NYP Cornell
Neurology - UCLA
Pathology - Brigham
Pediatrics - LIJ - North Shore
Preliminary - LIJ
Orthopaedic Surgery - Albert Einstein
Orthopaedic Surgery - Albert Einstein
Otolaryngology - Johns Hopkins
Radiation Oncology - Albert Einstein
Radiology - WashU
 
Why do so few MD/PhDs seem to go into psychiatry? It seems like a field ideally suited for translational research.
 
solumanculver said:
Why do so few MD/PhDs seem to go into psychiatry? It seems like a field ideally suited for translational research.
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I wonder this too, it would seem a great research field for Neuroscience PhDs. I'm planning on psychiatry.
 
solumanculver said:
Why do so few MD/PhDs seem to go into psychiatry? It seems like a field ideally suited for translational research.
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Very few psychiatry programs are basic/translation science oriented. In fact, psychiatry in general lacks adequate biochemical explanations for the effects of psychotropics. Of course, some would view this as fertile ground for medical investigation . . .
 
Gfunk6 said:
Very few psychiatry programs are basic/translation science oriented.
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It seems like very few programs in general are basic/translational science oriented, outside of pathology and medicine... that doesn't stop people from matching into radiology and dermatology.

In fact, psychiatry in general lacks adequate biochemical explanations for the effects of psychotropics. Of course, some would view this as fertile ground for medical investigation . . .
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It seems like this can only be interpreted as fertile ground for investigation. How can not understanding psychotropics be used as an argument to not study psychotropics.

Does it seem like the main reason that MD/PhDs don't go into psychiatry is that psychiatry is not seen as a very prestigious field? That's the only explanation that seems really convincing to me...
 
We've had a fair number of psychiatrists come out of our program. I toyed with the idea (but I'm a clinical researcher anyhow). But, there are plenty of areas for research - genetics, imaging, psychopharmacology, psychoneuroendocrinology, neurotransmitters, informatics, psychoneuroimmunology.
 
dantay said:
We've had a fair number of psychiatrists come out of our program. I toyed with the idea (but I'm a clinical researcher anyhow). But, there are plenty of areas for research - genetics, imaging, psychopharmacology, psychoneuroendocrinology, neurotransmitters, informatics, psychoneuroimmunology.
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Where are you? Iowa? I'm planning on going into psychiatry, myself. It kind of seems like a non-traditional path to take for MD/PhDs, though, and I'm really not sure why.
 
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a fair number of MD/PhD's go into psychiatry. In general psychiatry isn't very popular.

solumanculver said:
Where are you? Iowa? I'm planning on going into psychiatry, myself. It kind of seems like a non-traditional path to take for MD/PhDs, though, and I'm really not sure why.
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jjmack said:
a fair number of MD/PhD's go into psychiatry. In general psychiatry isn't very popular.
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From this thread, it seems like 10 MD/PhDs matched into psychiatry... I guess it's not the least popular specialty out there.

It just kind of seems like, given the number of people who do their PhDs in neuroscience, psychiatry would see a larger slice of the pie...
 
solumanculver said:
It seems like very few programs in general are basic/translational science oriented, outside of pathology and medicine... that doesn't stop people from matching into radiology and dermatology.
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Radiology and Dermatolgy both have established research tracks (Holman Pathway and 2+2, respectively). Still, I think you've somewhat hit the nail on the head. Rads/Derm have good reimbursement/pay, less so w/ psych unless you are doing urban private practice which is a tough gig to swing.

In any case, my personal opinion is that the "culture" of psychiatry does not exactly encourage basic science. A lot of programs emphasize psychotherapy for instance over pharmacology. In that way folks w/ a background in neuroscience research are better served in neurology/neurosurgery.
 
solumanculver said:
It just kind of seems like, given the number of people who do their PhDs in neuroscience, psychiatry would see a larger slice of the pie...
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From the big list:

Neurology and Psychiatry are even with the previous data and the data so far this year at 83 graduates each. If you combine those two, they would be #2 on the list. Further, Ophthalmology, whose research is typically contained within Neuroscience has 64 graduates.

I don't think Psychiatry is particularly unpopular, there just happens to be multiple specialties that directly look at the CNS.
 
Most recent I could find...

Pediatrics (2): Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (2)
Derm: Hospital of the Univ of Penn
Radiology: Hopkins
Medicine (2): Univ of Pitt Med Center (2)
Neurology: UCLA

Interested to know if anyone as the most recent data?
 
solumanculver said:
Why do so few MD/PhDs seem to go into psychiatry? It seems like a field ideally suited for translational research.
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I feel the same way about Emergency Medicine! :p MSTPs are often herded down the paths of pathology, IM, Neuro, Peds, Rad-Onc, etc. And these are all great fields. But perhaps the places where we can make the most difference is in these nontraditional areas. Psychiatry is a field with many questions that are wholly different from Neuroscience and that are ripe for the answering. The same is true with acute care research, esp with human tissue, which is readily available in the ER. Both of these specialties offer controllable lifestyles conducive to research, as do Derm and Radiology. That being said, even surgery and ob/gyn have wonderful opportunities. I think we should pick the fields we love because there are important questions in each of them.

I'm very proud of my class, I think we will all kick booty. Nearly all of us got our first choice. :cool:
 
Doctor&Geek said:
1) Positions for research-intensive radiology or dermatology residencies are limited, and far more limited than those that might be available for medicine or pathology.
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Argh! Ya got me!

I got hard stats on the RO Holman pathway. There's only 1-2 students per year that join the RO Holman Pathway in DR. There's another 5 or so per year in Radiation Oncology.

Disheartening...
 
hey Neuronix

I was looking at Penn's match list from past years for the MSTP kids...why is this year's group so much smaller? Normal fluctuations?
 
I don't know the answer for that. It is a very small match list for us so I speculate it must have just been a fluctuation. It seems there will be ~25 people graduating in my cohort (assuming I graduate in 2010).
 
Neuronix said:
Argh! Ya got me!

I got hard stats on the RO Holman pathway. There's only 1-2 students per year that join the RO Holman Pathway in DR. There's another 5 or so per year in Radiation Oncology.

Disheartening...
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Not only that, over the entire history of the Holman pathway, you could probably count the number of programs that have even allowed a Holman resident on one hand. Failed to match there? Tough.

Furthermore, since you aren't guaranteed a Holman position until after PGY-1 is done in most cases, they can offer the "option" of entering Holman when applying for residency, then pressure you to not take the pathway when they have you in residency. On the other hand, most fast-track programs offer you the research heavy option as a guarantee on match day, not to mention the number of programs guaranteeing salary support during postdocs comparable to residency, AND bridge funding to faculty.
 
Doctor&Geek said:
Not only that, over the entire history of the Holman pathway, you could probably count the number of programs that have even allowed a Holman resident on one hand.
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I have the list in front of me and it's actually two hands and a few toes.

The remainder of your post are points well taken. I'm still not going into any of the traditional MD/PhD fields, but this pushes me into more strongly considering Radiation Oncology.
 
j-weezy said:
hey Neuronix

I was looking at Penn's match list from past years for the MSTP kids...why is this year's group so much smaller? Normal fluctuations?
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Hey, that's my class. The reason is because we were the first fully-funded class (there used to be halfers), so they took 14 and built up from there, as well as a few graduating early/late. So fluctuation, plus some bonified changes in the program. Uh, I take it you're coming to Penn? :smuggrin:
 
Hard24Get said:
Hey, that's my class. The reason is because we were the first fully-funded class (there used to be halfers), so they took 14 and built up from there, as well as a few graduating early/late. So fluctuation, plus some bonified changes in the program. Uh, I take it you're coming to Penn? :smuggrin:
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duh!

Looking back at my interview, I may be way off base but did you go to the "on-campus" dinner with applicants in December (CAMB)?
 
j-weezy said:
duh!

Looking back at my interview, I may be way off base but did you go to the "on-campus" dinner with applicants in December (CAMB)?
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might have. Neuronix would know better than I would. I just show up, eat, and talk everyone's ears off without noting the date :p. PM me.
 
When you come you'll get the please volunteer for recruiting e-mails. It seems like they're always begging for more women to participate (and it's true, there's already fewer women and they participate even less!), so you can get as much free stuff as you like.
 
Neuronix said:
When you come you'll get the please volunteer for recruiting e-mails. It seems like they're always begging for more women to participate (and it's true, there's already fewer women and they participate even less!), so you can get as much free stuff as you like.
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That's great news for me - I love participating in recruitment events and i LOVE free food!
 
j-weezy said:
That's great news for me - I love participating in recruitment events and i LOVE free food!
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you are totally coming to the right program and will love it here - I have! :)
 
Doctor&Geek said:
EDIT: And can I get a copy of that list? ^_^
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My apologies but I'm afraid I cannot give out that list. It was given in private communication and I did not ask for permission to redistribute. It sounded like my questions were very infrequent, so she would probably know it was me if this was recirculated.

If you'd like to get the contact info for the source, PM me.
 
Neuronix said:
My apologies but I'm afraid I cannot give out that list. It was given in private communication and I did not ask for permission to redistribute. It sounded like my questions were very infrequent, so she would probably know it was me if this was recirculated.

If you'd like to get the contact info for the source, PM me.
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Rats...
 
Rad Onc - MCW
Anesthesia - MCW
Anesthesia - MGH
 
I would agree. Unfortunately, given the personally identifiable nature of this issue and the potential for pissing someone off at the ABR and screwing my career, I'm not in the position to make it publicly available.
 
Neuronix said:
I would agree. Unfortunately, given the personally identifiable nature of this issue and the potential for pissing someone off at the ABR and screwing my career, I'm not in the position to make it publicly available.
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The RSNA maintains a public list of its grant recipients here. Although this is not a list of Holman pathway residents per se the majority of them are. This should give you a good idea of the the # and institutions where current/past Holman residents are present.

When you are accepted for the Holman pathway, your name is automatically forwarded to the RSNA where your application will be favored for a Resident grant.
 
Gfunk6 said:
When you are accepted for the Holman pathway, your name is automatically forwarded to the RSNA where your application will be favored for a Resident grant.
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I'm looking at this list and the list of Holman Pathway students and they don't really line up. I will say this, the list of schools that have sponsored Holman Pathway students in Diagnostic Radiology are not the schools you would think. The vast majority are not top-10 by any metric (I would have only guessed 2 of them). The one with the most Holman pathway DR students isn't one I think of a research powerhouse and I never see on the top research Radiology programs.

This is perplexing. I'm not even sure what do with my career anymore... I was always under the impression that my desire to have a mostly basic research career would be strongly desired by residency programs. I thought that me wanting to go into Holman would certify me as a strong research student and put me on the right path for research. In Radiology it all seems like a farce, and everyone in DR is trying to steer me away from the Holman pathway. Strangely, my contact at ABR has no clue this is the case.
 
UW MSTP Match List for 2008:
Internal Medicine - UCSF
Internal Medicine - Hopkins
Internal Medicine - Beth Israel Deaconess (MA)
Pediatrics - UCSF
Pediatrics - UW/CHRMC
Emergency Medicine - UCSF
Pathology - UW
Dermatology - UC Davis
 
Towel said:
UW MSTP Match List for 2008:
Internal Medicine - UCSF
Internal Medicine - Hopkins
Internal Medicine - Beth Israel
Pediatrics - UCSF
Emergency Medicine - UCSF
Pathology - UW
Dermatology - UC Davis
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Towel, I like your name. It's inspired
 
Towel said:
UW MSTP Match List for 2008:
Internal Medicine - UCSF
Internal Medicine - Hopkins
Internal Medicine - Beth Israel
Pediatrics - UCSF
Emergency Medicine - UCSF
Pathology - UW
Dermatology - UC Davis
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I met that EM girl. I like her alot :)
 
Picklesali said:
Towel, I like your name. It's inspired
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Thanks, one of my favorite unheralded literary characters. ;)
Doctor&Geek said:
There's more than one. Can you specify? (i.e. NY, MA, etc.)
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I edited the post - it's the BID (MA).
Hard24Get said:
I met that EM girl. I like her alot :)
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She's awesome. I'm really glad she's going to be in the SF contingent next year. Did you meet her on the interview trail somewhere?
 
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