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2011 Pod Practice Survey

Discussion in 'Podiatric Residents & Physicians' started by FALL06, May 13, 2012.

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  1. FALL06

    FALL06 Junior Member

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    Hey all,

    I know there's a lot of concern regarding compensation after residency due to high student loan debt. For this reason, I'd like to share some stats with you straight from the 2011 Pod practice survey.

    average income for all podiatrists 2010:
    -approx 196K

    Average for income for Hospital based pods:
    -217K

    Average for Group Practice Pods
    -260K

    Average in academia:
    -170K

    First year associates:
    -approx 80K

    I tried to post the actual survey results but couldn't attach it due to size of the document.

    There are a great deal of things to consider including:

    -Avg number of years in practice for those surveyed
    -Loan debt
    -Geographic location
    -etc

    Just wanted to throw some numbers on the board. You should obtain the document for more specifics.

    best
    Resident
  2. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member

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    How many pods participated in this survey?
  3. GSRaw

    GSRaw

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    Over 1000 podiatrists total, according to the March issue of APMA news. However, it appears from the chart that new associate salary data was compiled from only 108 respondants spanning 2001-2010. I haven't logged in to see the entire document, but I hope there is more recent starting salary data from new associates.
  4. hematosis

    hematosis Slappin Da Bass

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    looks like first year associates are still taking it up the rear end.
    Are these figures after taxes?
  5. MarquetteGuy

    MarquetteGuy

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    I'm reluctantly posting this, but...I think it depends on what type of a job you're looking for. I'm just wrapping up my second year of residency training, with my third year still to complete, and I have already signed my contract with a prominent orthopaedic group to fill the role of a foot and ankle surgeon, and my starting salary is multiples of the above-listed first-year salary. I'm sure I'll get blasted for this post and it'll be called the exception, but from my experience, these "exceptions" have become more and more common lately. This is just my first-hand experience with the whole job process, and I thought I'd share it here. Hopefully it helps others.
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  6. Ankle Breaker

    Ankle Breaker Senior Member

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    Thats nice and all but is the residency program you are coming from a top tier program? Don't you think that might have some influence on the kinds of jobs one can land out of residency?
  7. FALL06

    FALL06 Junior Member

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    Yes, going to a good program helps you get a good job. Geographic location also plays a huge role in your ability to command a higher starting salary. Scope of practice and relationship with Ortho is something to consider as welll.

    With all that being said, I know plenty (maybe top 20-40%) starting at six figures, but I'd say as an average, right out of residency 80K is not far from what one should expect.

    Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
  8. MarquetteGuy

    MarquetteGuy

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    Good question, and I have some thoughts on this now after going through the job process. I am at a very good program, but I think "top teir" is in the eye of the beholder. I will offer this as food for thought from my experiences. If you're looking to join a podiatry group, then the name of your residency program might play an influencial part in your job search, since the people hiring you are familiar with the podiatric residency programs, but when you're only applying to orthopaedic groups, as I did, they couldn't care less what the name of your residency program is. Ortho guys have not the slightest clue what a "big name, top teir" podiatric residency program is. The only thing they care about is what your surgical numbers are, what you can do, and who you trained with in the MD world. For example, my surgical numbers are extremely high, and my training includes working a ton with an MD fellowship-trained foot and ankle orthopaedic surgeon, along with numerous other orthos, and many DPMs. My letters of recommendation include an MD fellowship-treined foot and ankle orthopaedic surgeon, along with other MD orthos and DPMs. I have more MD/ortho letters of recommendation than DPM letters of recommendation. These are the things that set you apart with orthopaedic groups, not the name of your residency program. There have been a lot of so-called "top 10" residency lists posted throughout these podiatry forums over the years, but rest assured that no orthopaedic group would recognize any of these podiatric residency programs by name. The only thing they care about are surgical numbers, what you can do, and who you trained with. I'm speaking only from my personal experience going through the job process, but this is also what I've observed during my time in residency. Just so no one assumes I'm the exception to the rule here, 6 out of our last 7 graduates from my residency program have all joined orthopaedic groups with similar situations to my own. This is how/why I picked my residency program, and it has worked out for me. To each their own, but hopefully this helps others in their initial search.
  9. Podophile

    Podophile R-rated

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    First and foremost, congratulations! I'm sure getting your job wasn't a stroke of luck but was well earned.

    My question is whether you will be allowed to partner in the future. One of the drawbacks of an ortho group can be that a pod often can't climb out of the "employee" position which provides a great starting salary but limits opportunity for growth.

    In contrast, private podiatry groups generally have lower starting salaries but claim to have a higher ceiling and will allow partnership.
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
  10. FiveOVicryl

    FiveOVicryl

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    :thumbup:

    Question: What are some (list of 5?) residency programs out there that will provide such opportunities for joining ortho groups?
  11. MarquetteGuy

    MarquetteGuy

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  12. MarquetteGuy

    MarquetteGuy

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    Good question, and yes, I am guaranteed partnership, which includes partnership rights in our group's outpatient surgery center, MRI, physical therapy department, digital x-ray, etc.... I will be a full partner, the same as every other partner in the group. That being said, partnership isn't for everybody either. There can be a lot of added headaches that can come along with being a partner too, and you may not want to deal with that. That's an individual decision for each person to make. But yes, I do have guaranteed partnership.
  13. JackedUp

    JackedUp

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    Where can we get access to this Survey?
  14. jdikis

    jdikis

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    Congrats on the job, however I'm not sure I agree with this statement.
    Ortho groups would likely recognize highly respected institutions, such as the following:

    Beth Israel Deaconess
    Mass General
    Cedars Sinai
    Ohio State University
    Penn Presby
    Univ of Texas Health San Antonio
    Univ of Pittsburgh Medical Center
    Univ of Cincinnati
    Swedish Medical Center

    These are just a few examples of well known hospitals that also have a podiatry residency. I would imagine any ortho group would recognize these names and think more highly of them because of their reputation. Some highly thought of podiatric residencies are only "highly thought of" in the pod world.
    I have no idea if this is actually true - it's just a thought.
  15. MarquetteGuy

    MarquetteGuy

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    Thanks. This may be correct to a small degree, but from my experience, the things that ortho groups really wanted to talk about were surgical numbers and extensive experience with our foot/ankle ortho, and to a lesser extent, the general orthos we do foot/ankle cases with, rather than the name of my residency hospital institution. The name of a prestigious hospital institution on your resume might get an ortho group to look a little further into it, but when it comes down to it, all they really care about is your training, surgical numbers, and foot/ankle ortho experience. Just my experience here.
  16. GSRaw

    GSRaw

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    Not necessarily, as I stated the data seems to be compiled from associates who started in 2001-2010. Starting salaries have changed since 2001, so if more respondants were associates during that time it makes sense that the overall average is lower than today.

    Regarding the source of the data, I found it with a simple google search. If you look at the March 2012 issue of APMA news the chart I'm referencing is there. If you are an APMA member (which as a student I believe is free) you can log in and see the entire report.

    Regarding which residencies will land you in ortho groups, do your research when evaluating the type of program people suggest. Several of the ones listed on this thread, while the institution name or several attendings might be known within the podiatry circle, are relatively unknown to the orthopedic community. Word of mouth is huge during the job hunt, which is why it's important to look at the attendings at your residency program when evaluating whether or not your goals match the type of patients they see. Keep in mind many residents do 1 year fellowships to get more experience in recon/rearfoot if they feel they lacked the trauma experience. Bottom line is that you will be keeping a log of your surgical cases for your job interviews and the group of doctors you're interviewing for will see your rearfoot numbers. If you're not comfortable with those cases, it doesn't matter that you went to a university based hospital. Dr. Fleming (Aria) probably does the most trauma on the East Coast, his practice is almost exclusively reconstructive/rearfoot. Ask where graduates are practicing after residency, it's a good indicator of what your potential will be as well.
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  17. Traum

    Traum

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    The key is not to be an associate. You have a very strong likelihood of being taken advantage of, and will work very hard for very little and get the bosses' scraps, and doing all the cases she/he does not care to do. NO, it's not 'paying your dues' or other corporate drivel. Podiatry has a historical tendency to eat its' young. Numerous experiences, both direct/indirect back this up.

    Most in podiatry, have huge student loans, living expenses, etc..you need to earn a minimum of 120-150K gross to start paying those loans back, and earn middle class living.

    For comparison an IM/FP (same 3 year residency) gets fresh out of residency starting offers of ~180K.

    DPMs.....do NOT settle with <100K gross and empty, inflated promises of "bonuses" commissions, hoop jumping, or other nonsense. You need dinero, a contract, and hire a lawyer to read through EVERYTHING. Protect yourself so you don't wreck yourself.

    Good luck.
  18. Ferocity

    Ferocity

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    Dr. Traum,

    What is one to do when the loan repayment clock is ticking yet no higher starting offers have come in?
  19. flyhi

    flyhi

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    IBR - Income Based Repayment, which is the same you will do while you are in residency.
  20. Ferocity

    Ferocity

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    http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml

    And the interest being accrued after those three years (which would be used for the three years in residency)?
  21. 165007

    165007

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    Sorry, but I have to comment on this one.
    If you know anything about UTSA, you would not have included it in your list. Two out of the three 4th year residents are still looking for jobs, and the one that got a job is working in a private practice pod group with a less than 100K pay.

    Umpc is a good program, but it seems like the ones graduating out of the program with ortho group positions are the ones who did the 1 year f/a fellowship with Wukich.

    Penn Presby is the only program on your list who is continually getting ortho group offers.
  22. GSRaw

    GSRaw

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    Really? I'm curious to know who because I'm not familiar with any recent grad who joined an ortho group.
  23. 165007

    165007

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    Pm me
  24. PADPM

    PADPM

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    I'm really tired of those who perpetuate the urban legend of podiatrists eating their young. I believe it's an overstated and unsubstantiated legend.

    There are those who "eat their young" in EVERY profession, from podiatry to urology to plumbing. But it doesn't exist in podiatry any more than other fields. Additionally, for every case of a DPM "eating the young", I can come up with as many cases of a young DPM screwing an older DPM. I know of many cases where a young DPM was made an excellent offer, performing lots of great surgery, great benefits, etc., only to have the young DPM steal (yes it's stealing) a list of patients from the computer, and opening as a competitor.

    Additionally, via a relationship I have with the director of a major university hospital medical dept chairman, who is a residency director, I can tell you that there aren't many (if any) family practice residents starting with 180K, and there aren't that many internal medicine residents (who make more) gettting starting offers of 180K. And those who are close to that number, STAY at that number for a long time, vs. podiatric residents who are getting offers all over the spectrum, but earning a decent amount a few years out.

    You always paint a doom and gloom picture of podiatry, and I simply haven't witnessed the horrible scenario you always discuss.
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  25. PADPM

    PADPM

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  26. PADPM

    PADPM

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    GSRaw,

    You wouldn't happen by any chance to be a resident at Aria would you?????? At the very least, you do have knowledge of the Philadelphia scene, since both programs are in Philadelphia (I believe Aria is in Philly).

    I know Justin Fleming personally for many years from seminars, professional organizations, etc. I see him a few times a year and can tell you that Justin is one of the nicest and most modest docs you'll ever meet. He is a true gentleman and an extremely bright guy.

    I would agree, from the numbers I've seen, speaking with Justin and speaking with former residents, etc., Justin is very busy with trauma. He is very fortunate that he landed with an orthopedic group who recognized his skills and his value to the practice. Justin has an excellent reputation and is a work horse, who according to residents, puts in some crazy long hours.

    I can't comment on the Penn Presby residents landing orthopedic jobs or other jobs. However, I also know Mike Downey very well (another true gentleman) and can call him to get more accurate information. I don't know much about the Penn Presby program, but I can tell you without a doubt, that ANYONE who trains with Mike will receive excellent training. Don't know the numbers, breakdown of cases, etc., but if Mike had anything to do with your training, you had an amazing teacher.

    Not sure if there are any other really high quality programs in Philadelphia or surrounding areas, but I can't imagine anyone can go wrong being trained by Mike or Justin.
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  27. GSRaw

    GSRaw

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    I am not at Aria, but I do KIT with my colleagues who are there. I also spent time at both hospitals during my 4th year and while they both had excellent attendings, the volume of trauma month to month wasn't even comparable. Dr. Fleming, as part of a larger ortho group, took all their FA trauma. I know for a fact that at least 5 of the last 9 graduating Aria residents are at ortho practices and 2 others chose not to go that route. I'm happy to be wrong about Penn Grads, as I said I don't know of anyone recently that is with an ortho group but that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen from time to time. However, if you are looking for a trauma intense program I don't think there's anyone in the area who will disagree that Aria sees the most.
  28. misskittyPA

    misskittyPA

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    2007 graduate of Penn-Presby
    http://mmidocs.com/meet-our-physicians/damian-roussel

    2008 graduate of Penn-Presby
    http://www.tahoefracture.com/MeetourSpecialists/KeithCardDPM/tabid/20465/Default.aspx

    His co-resident that year Dr. DeWaters joined Hal Ornstein's group. In 2009, Penn started taking 4 residents a year (previously had only been 2). Some of these grads joined multi-speciality groups or other large podiatry groups. I know some of these had ortho offers but chose to go other routes.

    I didn't go further back from 2007 b/c I figured that would miss the point of "recent" grads.
  29. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

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    Sorry to bump this old thread, but are all of you pod students/residents out there expecting to be paid <100k your first year out?

    Edit: Okay, to clarify, I'm not asking what young associates make. I'm asking if the residents/pod students on these forums are EXPECTING to make less than 100k after residency, or if they believe they will be the exception/work hard/land good residencies, etc.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  30. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Sadly, Master Jedi, this is NOT an Urban Myth at all. You are correct that this happens in all professions, and not just the one we've chosen. That does not make in any less disturbing.

    I also find it quite hard to believe that "many" cases of these Young Jedi leaving their original Master's place of business to go across the way and open on their own, whether they "steal" or not. I am well versed in this scenario and I believe you to be inflating the truth.

    Additionally, what is a Young Jedi to do??? Is it greed? Perhaps it is, but perhaps there are many other factors. that you are ignoring. If a Young Jedi is working hard and asks for additional funds, is it so unusual for the Master Jedi to not want to give anything more to the Young Jedi, even though it is available? In your language, to not give a bit more of the "piece of the pie" in order to keep such a young, motivated Jedi? Or to decide to hire an even Younger Jedi who will work equally hard, but will not demand a new financial incentive to stay on? The variables in these situations are astounding, least of all that the Young Jedi has uprooted to accommodate the Master Jedi, not the contrary. What is the Master Jedi concerned about. If they have years of experience behind him or her, so why even worry about a Young Jedi at all with respect to "opening up next door"?

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Master, just providing an alternate reality.

    As a side point, you also seem to be contradicted yourself, Master. On one hand you are saying it's unsubstantiated, but on the other hand you say everyone does it in every profession. So does it occur or not, Master?
  31. FiveOVicryl

    FiveOVicryl

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    Welcome back Kidsfeet.
  32. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Who is this? I am being called all sorts of names on this Intergalactic media outlet. That one seems to be the most prominent. I have no idea who this person is although from the reaction I'm getting that I am this person, he or she must have been lost in some galactic struggle I am not aware of.

    Who WAS this person and how do I find them??????????
  33. Sig Savant

    Sig Savant

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    Have you checked podiatrytoday.com or PM News?
  34. FiveOVicryl

    FiveOVicryl

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    You can find him in a galaxy far, far away.
  35. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    I rarely have time to peruse anything outside of my own interests, which neither of those two sites qualify. My job as a sidekick keeps me extraordinarily busy. Intergalactic scoundrels are everywhere!

    Is there really a Master or Padawan on either of those sites called "Kidsfeet"?
  36. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Which galaxy exactly?? I've traveled to many and have never encountered anyone by that name. Please advise.
  37. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member

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    I guess I'm a huge sucker with my base of <$100k in a private DPM office then, huh? I must be crazy... how will I ever pay my loans and have a decent life for my family on that? I guess I'll be slaving away for decades, putting mac n cheese on my kids plates every night, having imaginary vacations, driving a 97 Dodge Stratus, and foolishly hoping for scraps from "the man," right?

    It's hard to generalize about contracts in private practice... or anywhere else. Which of the following is the best:
    $50k base and then 30% of your gross collections over $100k with no health insurance plan available?
    $100k base and then 25% of gross collections over $300k?
    $70k base and then 25% of gross collections over $200k and 35% over $300k?
    No base, on your own for malprac and CME and licenses and benefits... just straight 40% of gross collections and, increased 44% when you reach $250k+?
    $150k base and then 15% of collections over $300k but an understaffed office and zero autonomy over payers/staffing/marketing?
    $80k base and then 75% of net collections over $200k
    $200k base and then 25% of gross collections over $500k with opportunity to buy into an outpatient surg center but every other weekend on call?

    Hmmm, by your standards, you'd immediately cross off anything with a base under $100k right away? Don't want to get "taken advantage of," right? Right?

    In reality, the "best" choice in the deals above totally depends on the situation and who you are working with...
    -will they be giving you a decent % of new patients scheduling with the practice?
    -will they market you to local PCPs, existing patients, hospital staff, and the community?
    -will you be seeing the hiring partners' post-op patients on a regular basis?
    -will they give you some of their existing recurring patients (at risk C&C, CDFE pts, etc) to get you going?
    -will you have much of any autonomy and will your ideas for the office be valued at all in meetings?

    There is so much to consider. I think that you have to evaluate each situation individually. In the end, you have to decide what's right for you. You can have all the attorney reviews of the contract, high base salary, or promises of buy in and getting you new patients, but you have to go out on a limb nonetheless? Is the office staff a good team with positive chemistry? Does the practice have growth potential? Are they looking for a partner to bring in new services or just a grunt worker to cover them on vacation and see the poorly insured and staff the wound centers and go see the assisted living and ECF pts?

    I certainly don't have all the answers, but nobody does. You have to think about what you want and where the practice might set you up in the longer term, not just how much your first paycheck, rent, and student loan bill will be. GL ;)
  38. RockFoot

    RockFoot

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    max i may be naive and foolish but of course i am planning on a salary well above 100k straight out of residency. i also plan on a 4.0 and a badass residency along with great reviews and recs from all faculty and staff.i meet. you sell yourself short if you plan for mediocrity.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile
  39. jonwill

    jonwill SDN Senior Moderator Moderator Emeritus

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    I think what Feli is pointing out is that there are a lot of things to consider in a contract. Sure you want a good base salary to where you can live but you should never trade a higher base salary for production. If it is a busy practice, you can do very well on production bonuses. If your first year base is 80K but after 240K of production, you get 35%, you can do real well. I think I produced 500K my first full year. With those numbers I would make 80K base plus 91K bonus = 171K salary. IF the very same practice offered you a first year salary of 150K with no bonus structure, you just lost 21K!!!! The funny thing is that I bet a lot of residency grads would go for the 150K salary as opposed to the 80K base. So be careful and don't just jump at the higher number.
  40. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

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    Thanks for the posts, everyone.

    I was just curious because if you make 80k a year, you take home about 60k, then pay about 25k in loan repayments and that leaves you with ~35k to live off. Not to be flip, but if I wanted to make 35k a year I would have skipped college and debt and became the manager of Arby's.
  41. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Ohhhh...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAHAhahahahaha...*sniffle*.....ohhhh....
    haha...ha...*sniffle*..*snicker"...ha...ho...haha...

    My apologies Young Padawan, but you sound JUST like the Younglings we are beginning to train at the Jedi Academy on Corescant.

    "Youngling, what do you want to be when you grow up?"

    "I want to be the BIGGEST, BADDEST, RICHEST Jedi Master, EVER!!"

    For a Youngling, this is an appropriately enthusiastic reply, but for some one in your position, it is cause for worry. Particularly with how much disrespect you are showing to those who are only trying to help.

    Your quip about "mediocre" is very poorly placed, and shows your arrogance, which is the path to the Dark Side. The only ones who will judge your mediocrity is those that seek your care. Also, if you insist on judging your success only by how many Galactic Credits you collect, you will become bitter and unhappy. This is a sure sign that you will begin to fall to the Dark Side and become a Master Sith. There is more to life than Galactic Credits. We have plenty of Sith in our midst, so perhaps you will be in good company. Many of those look to Greed and less than noble ways to attain their goals. Proceed with caution, Young One.

    Young Master Feli,
    You are wise well beyond your years, and for this, the Jedi Council will watch your career very closely. You have the potential to be a great Master Jedi one day. Much respect. -bow-.
  42. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Then you should have pursued that career path.

    Settle down Young One. Better times ahead and no cause for worry. The Force is with You.
  43. MaxillofacialMN

    MaxillofacialMN Osteopathic Foot Dentist

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    Haha, thanks.
  44. PADPM

    PADPM

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    1) I do not believe I've contradicted myself. I still believe that podiatry eating it's young is an urban legend. Even if it does happen at time, similar to any other profession, the urban legend is that's the norm, not the exception.

    2) Regardless of what you believe, my experience and reality is that I know of "many" docs who have been screwed by an associate. One of my partners was screwed by his former associate and I have a long list of similar scenarios. Apparently my reality and yours differ, and I take offense at your inference that I am inflating the truth, which is a stones throw from lying. Just because your experience doesn't parallel mine, doesn't mean I have in any way altered the facts.

    3) A young associate opening next store is not always a threat as you implied, but any loss of business based on connections/relationships developed by the employer is certainly not appreciated. However, it simply speaks of integrity. Whether or not a non compete clause is enforceable is not relevant. The bottom line is that the associate voluntarily signed the agreement and opening "next door" is an ethical issue in my opinion. This is even more valid when an associate is given training, introduced to attendings and PCP's, etc., and takes advantage of that opportunity by opening next door and attempting to in essence take business from those who gave him the opportunity in the area and opened all the local doors.

    4) Yes, I believe any employee should eventually be rewarded financially or with some other type of reward such as potential partnership, etc. However, it's not always as cut and dry as an associate believes. Most associates I know believe that the other doctors are making much more than the actual number. The associate also does not always understand the increasing cost of doing business, and simply knows he is working harder and should automatically be making more money. Are the senior members of the practice sitting back or are they also working hard? Is it "okay" if some of the senior members of the practice who have paid their dues, take advantage of their own past hard work? You also state that the Jedi should be rewarded by the Master since the funds are "available". My question is how does the Jedi know the funds are available? Has the Jedi seen the bank account of the practice? Once again, I do agree that anyone in any profession should be rewarded for hard work and dedication, but as previously stated, it's not always that simple. And the statement that the Jedi should be rewarded since the funds ARE available infers some resentment of the Jedi based on assumptions, not necessarily fact.

    5) In my past experience, the majority of associates start off very happy, until they or their wives start counting the money of the partners/employer. The associate forgets about the financial investment of the employer/partners, the YEARS it took to establish their success and the daily financial burdens to maintain a practice. They also forget any past bad experiences they've had in the past and don't fully understand the benefits of their new gig.

    6) Did the young "Jedi" uproot to satisfy his master? Really, is that what you believe? The young Jedi was never forced to uproot but made that decision voluntarily and without being coerced. He had the opportunity to seek employment closer to his roots, but decided to take an offer elsewhere. Is the relationship truly one way to ONLY satisfy the master? What about the opportunity given to the young Jedi to work hard, make a decent living and learn about a successful practice? I see it quite differently. The uprooting was a decision made by the young Jedi to hopefully prosper from an opportunity offered, not a demand of the Master.

    7) The bottom line is that very few employees are ever truly satisfied since their efforts always seem unappreciated. Similarly, most employers would like to have the employee fully understand the cost of doing business and that profits may not be as expected. If any employee or young Jedi feels that he is being taken advantage of, he can always seek greener pastures. That's often not what the employer/Master wants or would like to see, but if the young Jedi is really unhappy, that may be the only solution. But the young Jedi should also remember his roots or past experiences before moving on.


    8) These comments and writing style seem eerily familiar.
  45. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Sometimes a Master and Sidekick disagree. Sometimes a Master sees things in a different light than a Sidekick does because of the perspective each sees. That is unequivocal. I am not attempting to insult you Master. nor trying to offend you in any way. These are just my thoughts based on my many years of experience as well.

    If you don't appreciate my discussions and think I am trying to offend you in any way, that is your perception and your perception alone. If you continue to be offended by my words regardless, I will back away as a good Sidekick should. That being said, I certainly appreciate your input, and hope you will take mine into consideration as well.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  46. PADPM

    PADPM

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    I take my integrity very seriously, and do not inflate my comments on this site. To say your perception is different is a valid response, but telling me that you believe I have inflated the numbers is questioning my integrity.....and that is my perception.

    If the relationship dissolves, it is almost universally the fault of both parties involved. The employee must understand that as a calculated risk that is expected in any new venture. However, I had originally simply addressed your point that the employee "uprooted", and that was the choice of the employee and the employer certainly can't be blamed for that decision. Although there are always exceptions, I believe most employers have good intentions, and don't plan on a failure of the relationship. Yes, an employee can absolutely teach new ideas or concepts to the employer, and any good relationship will start out symbiotic, though it's intuitively obvious that the employer will have the upper hand considering the fact that the employer is established with stability and presumably greater finances. That is no one's fault, just reality.

    If the young employee sees the employer(s) driving nice cars, buying boats, taking exotic vacations, etc., it is simply unfair to the employer. The employee is making an assumption that all those material goods are directly related to the income derived from the practice. It could be from prior investments, it could be from inheritance, it could be from a wealthy spouse, etc. Sometimes there are other sources of income unknown to the new associate.

    I have witnessed wives, or to be more fair, spouses destroy excellent employee/employer relationships and even partnerships. The spouse believes that Dr. A is working very hard, and sees that Dr. B is taking more vacations, driving a nicer car, lives in a bigger home, etc., and becomes bitter and/or resentful. I have unfortunately witnessed this and once again, the spouse may have no real idea where the revenue was being generated.

    Once again, it is obvious that an established employer will most likely usually have the upper hand simply since the employer has a successful business, greater finances, etc. And once again this is unfortunately a risk that any employee must take when entering into any new venture. There are no guarantees. Similarly, there are no guarantees that a new employee will maintain the standards that were established by the employer. Both parties assume risk, but unfortunately the employee usually has the greater potential loss since the employee entered the venture with skills and knowledge, but no material wealth/local roots.

    An employee always has the opportunity to seek greener pastures if he believes there are greater opportunities. This can and does impact the employer who has invested time and money in the employee. Inevitably, in most honest ventures that go sour, both parties suffer damages.

    It's not relevant who has a similar writing style and looked familiar. It's simply my observation and not an accusation.

    I have absolutely no problem with a "sidekick" who disagrees, as long as the disagreement remains civil. I don't believe you are attempting to offend me, though as previously stated I take my integrity seriously, and did not feel the "inflated" comment was necessary.

    I do appreciate your past posts and have commented on that fact. At this time, I believe we agree on more than it appears in this thread, and would recommend that we would simply agree to disagree on some of the above points, since there really is no true right or wrong, just opinions based on experiences and perception.
  47. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says,

    Point taken, Master. -bow-
  48. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member

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    I wouldn't say it's "much easier" for the employing doctor(s) than an associate doc when the relationship ends. There are factors to consider on each side.

    Assuming a decent contract (which is almost invariably what it requires to attract conscientious and intelligent employees), then employing doctor's practice has invested many thousands of dollars into credentialing, hospital dues, CME, APMA + ACFAS etc, malpractice, marketing, support staff, and other costs associated with the associate. That money is all spent before the associate has ever generated a penny of revenue for the employer, so in the early goings, the practice is always losing money on the associate doc. There's also the issue of unemployment compensation if the associate was terminated by the practice and possibly fees incurred to enforce the non-compete clause.

    That's not to even consider the significant time and resources the practice spent to attract, interview, negotiate, check out, and contract a practice associate doc in the first place... which the office now probably need to do again in order to find another reasonable quality associate. Good employees don't grow on trees. We all know of DPMs who float from associate job to associate job to nursing home service to associate job, and they are generally unable to pass boards, lazy, poorly trained, negligent, just a volatile personality that does not work well with anyone... or all of the those things. That's a fact, and most hiring practices know to avoid those hirings since they will lose money, local practice reputation, patient satisfaction, and valuable time by creating a relationship with those people.

    I get job emails and mailings and phone calls frequently, and I could also find dozens more positions quick through networking efforts and online search if I were to ever go looking for them. Also, anyone who has decent credit or family support and responsible savings funds could also just start their own office or join another practice as an independent contractor (which is greatly facilitated after the previous employer's practice has gotten them credentialed with most of the local insurance payers and local hospitals). If an associate leaves a practice - or gets fired, then it's truly not too difficult to "fend for themselves" if they have a quality skill set and good work ethic. I don't buy the argument that it's totally one-sided; it's a mutually beneficial relationship with risks and benefits on each end.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  49. RockFoot

    RockFoot

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    i stand by my statement that to plan for mediocrity is not doing justice to one's self. If I try for a 4.0 and only get a 3.9, guess what i did great and my high goal let to my success. Why would i go into this career saying i am only going to be a middle of the road podiatrist?? I want to be a great podiatrist with a great income. sorry if thats amusing kidsfeet.

    Sent from my SPH-D600 using SDN Mobile
  50. TheWookie

    TheWookie

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    The Wookie says:

    Both sides of the story, Master.
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