2014 billing update

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duct I gotta agree with emd.Of course our debate is not based purely on logic but also on emotions and personal ideals. emd and I will be personally greatly affected by this dramatic pay differential based on site of service whereas you, a hospital employee, has little to lose.

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im sorry, i didnt realize it was 2014 already. i thought it was December 28th, 2013. are people are already paying 7 times more already, even though the rules dont go into effect for another week? (ps the posts i am commenting on state that).


its not about you, the doctor. the idea is to make healthcare affordable for the average american. id guess the average pain PP does not take medicaid, definitely does not take "FINA". the ACA's current iteration sucks, of course, but access to healthcare is for this demographic - 16-20% of the US population.

essentially, this argument is petty. just because PP pain docs wont take the little money they will be given by an insurance that they dont take, then "we'll show you" and the PP clinics that stay in business will be the opioids ones. "Waa waa if you dont give me what i want, i wont love you any more!!"

this is not the argument an established and intellectually competent specialty wants to present.

the implicit assumption is also that pain as a profession can be "bought". if you pay us less, then the profession will do what it needs to stay afloat, and that is to prescribe more opioids.

after reading your post, i now feel it is unethical to threaten CMS, congress, the american public with this suggestion.



Correct me if I'm wrong but:

You've said you are hospital employed so none of this affects you or your patients. Of course you think it's great that CMS will pay your hospital owned Pain department and employer 4-7 times more for the same service as provided by others and any counter argument to that as an outrage and "unethical."

This will have the hardest effect on those who just started or are about to start practices, who prescribe opiates conservatively, utilize procedures conservatively, those who have not "gamed the system," and those who made the financial investment to spend a year training in fellowship. For them, the goal will be how to practice good Medicine and survive.

You've said you're a supporter of single payer.

That being said, it's easy to sit back, unaffected, while private practice doctors who are already providing the same services at 1/4 the cost, be punitively targeted no matter how qualified, highly-trained or conservative in their practices, while such services will be driven to the hospital setting where they can be performed in identical fashion, now at a cost to the American taxpayer at 7 times the cost. It is no consolation knowing it's for the end of achieving single payer any cost, which in it's supposed nobility, justifies any means.

It's also easy to pretend it will never affect patients or have any unintended negative societal consequences and call anyone who even argues otherwise "unethical."

It's a form of an ad hominem attack to throw around an accusation of being "unethical" for even voicing an argument or viewpoint that isn't politically correct or in agreement with yours. The goal is to shut people up by intimidation. Did you it was "unethical" and a "threat" for those that warned 25 years ago that the plan to radically increase opiate prescribing would lead to adverse effects and overdose deaths?

Those who are truly unethical, running pill mills and procedure mills, aren't here on SDN Pain debating ideas. Save the name calling for them. The vast majority of us are plenty ethical, and to play the "ethics card" every time someone disagrees with your viewpoint renders the term meaningless.
 
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duct I gotta agree with emd.Of course our debate is not based purely on logic but also on emotions and personal ideals. emd and I will be personally greatly affected by this dramatic pay differential based on site of service whereas you, a hospital employee, has little to lose.

Little to lose at this moment. Reading that article from Forbes which was recently posted shows that CMS is well aware of the large gap between PP and hospital reimbursement. However, they will still be in the physician round up phase of the plan prior to dropping the hammer on hospitals. And when that hammer drops, it will all roll downhill. Because I'm pretty sure that none of the 20 RN VPs will be taking a paycut. Our only hope is to vote out the socialists prior to the completion of the round up phase of the master plan.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but:

You've said you are hospital employed so none of this affects you or your patients. Of course you think it's great that CMS will pay your hospital owned Pain department and employer 4-7 times more for the same service as provided by others and any counter argument to that as an outrage and "unethical."

This will have the hardest effect on those who just started or are about to start practices, who prescribe opiates conservatively, utilize procedures conservatively, those who have not "gamed the system," and those who made the financial investment to spend a year training in fellowship. For them, the goal will be how to practice good Medicine and survive.

You've said you're a supporter of single payer.

That being said, it's easy to sit back, unaffected, while private practice doctors who are already providing the same services at 1/4 the cost, be punitively targeted no matter how qualified, highly-trained or conservative in their practices, while such services will be driven to the hospital setting where they can be performed in identical fashion, now at a cost to the American taxpayer at 7 times the cost. It is no consolation knowing it's for the end of achieving single payer any cost, which in it's supposed nobility, justifies any means.

It's also easy to pretend it will never affect patients or have any unintended negative societal consequences and call anyone who even argues otherwise "unethical."

It's a form of an ad hominem attack to throw around an accusation of being "unethical" for even voicing an argument or viewpoint that isn't politically correct or in agreement with yours. The goal is to shut people up by intimidation. Did you it was "unethical" and a "threat" for those that warned 25 years ago that the plan to radically increase opiate prescribing would lead to adverse effects and overdose deaths?

Those who are truly unethical, running pill mills and procedure mills, aren't here on SDN Pain debating ideas. Save the name calling for them. The vast majority of us are plenty ethical, and to play the "ethics card" every time someone disagrees with your viewpoint renders the term meaningless.
You have made multiple assumptions that invalidate your main points. At least clubdeac had a reasoned response.

First, I am fully aware that cuts are occurring to facility based physicians - not as much as PP, but the physician fee of facility based doctors has always been what 1/3rd of the global fee. What went up is not the doctor pay - it is specifically pay to the hospital.

Second, anyone is just plain dumb if they don't see that cuts will be made to the hospital in the future. I'm not that dumb.

Third, I never said I favored a single payor system. I favor a system that allows almost all Americans to get some kind of healthcare. Those who can afford should be able to buy better coverage; insurance companies should be not- for-profit and stop r$(ing the US.

What is unethical is the argument that if the cuts are put in place , that our profession will resort to writing more opioids. Pain as a specialty needs to clearly define themselves as using opioids appropriately - suggestions that the profession will in essence be forced to write more drugs because they will get paid less does not further the image of pain medicine.

If u dont see the line this crosses, then u are too far gone.

Argue that there will be less access (will happen, not immediately as not a lot of PP rely in Caid/care for financial solvency).

Argue that what a pain physician does and the malpractice risks he takes on require better reimbursement then what is planned.

Argue that abuse of the system needs to be combated via certifications and not by cutting reimbursements to appropriately trained doctors.

Argue that the AMA RUC truly underestimates the time it takes to do these injections safely (as it seems that is a big basis for the cuts - ppl are doing these injections way too fast to justify the $/time spent ).

There are many cogent arguments to be made against the cuts.
 
In order to control something, you must own it. This reimbursement incentivizes what "the system" wants...hospital employed docs.

After our initial shock and anger wears offs, I think the next important question is, of those with 20-30 years left to work, how many of us will jump ship (within the next 1-5 years). Not from medicine entirely, but from private "pain" practice, in the traditional sense.
 
Here is the breakdown as far as RVU cuts from 2013 to 2014 I received this from ISIS. It shows that the liability component was cut for both ILESIs and CESIs from .16 to 0.1 and 0.09 respectively. I would be very interested to know what the liability RVU is for other procedures in other fields. I was talking with an ob/gyn friend of mine over the weekend and was told he gets reimbursed ~$200 to inject a subq norplant (which takes 1 minute to insert)!!! Something needs to seriously be done here!

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/spinalinjection.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/advocacy/epidural_cuts.pdf
 
Guys-

Just FYI. This is what they want us to do. In fighting.

Divide and conquer.

This shouldn't really matter if you are private practice or hospital based. Eventually, if we let the bean counters do the math, they want ALL physicians to take a hit.

What we do on a daily basis with needles is dangerous. This is a very high risk speciality, anatomy needs to be intimately known. This requires added training and I think being compensated fairly is important as what we do does improve people's quality of living.
 
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Guys-

Just FYI. This is what they want us to do. In fighting.

Divide and conquer.

This shouldn't really matter if you are private practice or hospital based. Eventually, if we let the bean counters do the math, they want ALL physicians to take a hit.

What we do on a daily basis with needles is dangerous. This is a very high risk speciality, anatomy needs to be intimately known. This requires added training and I think being compensated fairly is important as what we do does improve people's quality of living.


shut up dick, no we are not. You suck!!!! ohh wait. shiiitt, they got me again!
 
Question:

Just read the ASIPP e-newsletter that went out today and they wrote this:

"Another issue we hoped to would be resolved by the year end is the draconian 2014 reimbursement cuts. However, we can share the good news that we have a 3-month reprieve, giving us additional time to keep up the letter writing and advocacy efforts. "

I had heard this, but assumed it was the SGR cuts which never happen anyways, but this reads like it's a delay in the procedure codes cuts.

Does anyone know, is this a delay in the IPM fee schedule cuts, the SGR cuts or both?
 
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