2015-2016 Current Events in Veterinary Medicine

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- In terms of stories relevant to vet med and which garnered huge amounts of public comment: Texas vet that posted the picture of the cat she killed online. I can see lots of discussion of ethics, professionalism, social media issues, etc. from that story.

- An Ohio specific story: Ohio Dept. of Ag. confiscating exotic animals from some owners who failed to register with the state before the deadline put forth by the 2012 Dangerous Wild Animal Act. A lot of push back against the state by one owner who made inflammatory comments to the media and who continues to sue the state to get his animals back. It's an interesting drawn out story that has been in regional and sometimes national news for months and months.

- Ebola

- Animal abuse registries

- Avian influenza quarantines in various states (some have been recently lifted)

- Entomology stuff that falls into med/vet and has been in the news lately:
  1. Kissing bugs and Chagas disease in Texas
  2. Sterile male technique and malarial mosquitoes
  3. Tick-borne diseases in general, but a lot of media on Powassan virus earlier this year

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Omg. Sounds awful. I've seen a lot of "she is my child, I will spend ANYTHING to get her better!!" But never "she's my child but I can't afford it!". I'm sure the vets I've worked for have though. The clinic I worked in was the most expensive in town, so I'm sure we had a different clientele than lower cost ones too. Interesting!

I'm not sure how I feel about humans being the "guardians" of animals instead of "owners", because you do normally buy your pets. I think of my pets as my children/friends and would spend any amount of money to fix them if it was possible, and I try to give them a little sense of independence when I can.... But I don't think it would work well legally.

Most of these cases aren't that they absolutely can't afford it. It's that they're not willing to pay for it.

The people who legitimately can't afford anything will listen to me and try to work with me to try and find a way to do something. I had a kitty recently that I suspected had diabetes, but could just as well be kidney or hyperthyroid. The labwork I wanted on the cat was going to cost $330 including my exam. The owner told me she moved around money in her bank account just to be able to bring the kitty in and she only had around $100 (I was like ****... Just cost of exam and single BG costs about that much). She was also concerned kitty's paws were painful, so I told her I would at least go and do a complimentary nail trim, take a close look at her paws, and apply some complimentary flea preventative. I went ahead and just took a BG to confirm my suspicions. When I brought kitty back, the owner said she just made some phone calls, and wants to run that bloodwork. So I told her kitty was diabetic, and cost of care at least initially was significant so if she wanted to treat, we need to be smart about how to stretch her dollar. As much as I wanted that super package of diagnostics, I didn't want it at the cost of not being able to treat kitty. So I went through all the possible blood panel/urine packages to have the most cost effective way to check the values I wanted, called around for costs of lantus/prozinc insulin, syringes and antibiotics, looked up cost of glucometer. Let her know the cost of everything to get started safely would cost $400 and what that would mean in terms of intensive management on her end. She was very thankful and scraped up enough money to do that.

The people who legitimately can't afford anything are thankful when I point them to resources for people who are truly low income, or if I put together donated meds and free samples for a shoot and pray approach. They also appreciate when I point them to over the counter things they can try. They understand limitations due to finances.

The people who give me the "but she's my child, you have no idea (as if my kitty weren't the most important thing to me in this world)" guilt trips usually have no intentions of compromising anything. They don't want to pay for a single thing. They also want best care for the cost of nothing. They end up leaving really huffy declining everything, or they begrudgingly pay for everything and then scream at us for days to come about negative diagnostics if the pet feels better, or even more if the pet wasn't better and needed more care. You just can't win with these people.
 
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There's a bill being sponsored recently - they want to make it required for vets to write RXs before offering a medication from their own pharmacy/clinic.

Social media in general - how it relates to suicide in our profession.
 
Omg. Sounds awful. I've seen a lot of "she is my child, I will spend ANYTHING to get her better!!"

Free pro tip: The people who tell you in the exam room that "money is no object, do whatever it takes" or "I don't care how much it costs, do whatever you need to do" <most> of the time will turn around and throw a fit when they see the actual cost. There are some that genuinely mean it, but they are the minority.
 
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Free pro tip: The people who tell you in the exam room that "money is no object, do whatever it takes" or "I don't care how much it costs, do whatever you need to do" <most> of the time will turn around and throw a fit when they see the actual cost. There are some that genuinely mean it, but they are the minority.

It's always the extremes with those.

The money is no object because I don't have any and don't intend to pay for anything. (Doesn't burn you as much in an ER setting if your hospital requires payment first. But in the GP setting where we go forth with everything as long as estimates are signed... We get people who still go up front afterwards and leave without paying because they don't have money).

And the money is no object because it really isn't people. I had one person who said we're not going to talk about money because it is vulgar. That it doesn't matter how much it will cost, it is getting done. Probably spent 15k in the next few weeks.
 
It's always the extremes with those.

The money is no object because I don't have any and don't intend to pay for anything. (Doesn't burn you as much in an ER setting if your hospital requires payment first. But in the GP setting where we go forth with everything as long as estimates are signed... We get people who still go up front afterwards and leave without paying because they don't have money).

We actually do it the same way you described - we get a signed estimate and then provide the service and then collect payment. Exception is hospitalized patients, where we do collect the low end of the estimate at time of hospitalization (so those are paid ahead). It's rare that people won't pay up on a signed estimate, but ... it definitely happens.

They usually try and blame us ("you didn't tell me .....") or they try and play us against the RDVM with some version of "Well, my REGULAR vet [takes payments, bills me, cuts corners on this or that, etc.]."

There's a reason our staff tell each and every person when they call that the initial cost will be X, after which an estimate will be provided for further diagnostics and therapy, and that payment is due at time of service. But some people just ignore the whole spiel ... I think in their heads they're thinking "I'll get Fluffy taken care of, then I'll find some way to deal with that persnicky payment issue."
 
We actually do it the same way you described - we get a signed estimate and then provide the service and then collect payment. Exception is hospitalized patients, where we do collect the low end of the estimate at time of hospitalization (so those are paid ahead). It's rare that people won't pay up on a signed estimate, but ... it definitely happens.

They usually try and blame us ("you didn't tell me .....") or they try and play us against the RDVM with some version of "Well, my REGULAR vet [takes payments, bills me, cuts corners on this or that, etc.]."

There's a reason our staff tell each and every person when they call that the initial cost will be X, after which an estimate will be provided for further diagnostics and therapy, and that payment is due at time of service. But some people just ignore the whole spiel ... I think in their heads they're thinking "I'll get Fluffy taken care of, then I'll find some way to deal with that persnicky payment issue."

It always flabbergasts me when the estimate is signed, they're told payment is due at time of service, that there are no payment plans. And they nod yes yes yes yes. And then they go, well yeah I agreed to all of this, but I just don't have the money to pay it. As if we're supposed to go, yeah of course.
 
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I used to be a huge fan of Blue Buffalo. I realize that they are not the first nor the last food to contain byproducts, but how sickening to base your industry off of the "fact" that the food doesn't! I was already suspicious when I found out the food was owned by MARS.

Welcome to the food industry and marketing in general, human or animal.
 
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I just want to address the "owned by MARS" comment. Other than that Blue is not, being owned by a multi-billion dollar company is not necessarily a bad thing. Hills Science Diet is owned by Colgate, Purina is owned by Nestle, Iams/Eukanuba was owned by P&G and is now owned by MARS, and Royal Canin is owned by MARS. What do these guys have in common? They all had pretty successful pet food businesses with research before being bought and the all have a good deal of research behind all of their products. They have all been responsible with any issues regarding their foods and their prescription diets are invaluable.
 
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Something that might be pretty popular in this year's interviews: Subway banning antibiotic use by its meat suppliers.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...joins-the-fast-food-antibiotic-free-meat-club and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/subway-antibiotic-free-meat_5626a723e4b0bce34702bc85 to read up on it if you haven't heard it yet!

I think it's going to lead to poor animal welfare, higher meat costs (although you could just not eat at Subway), and a whole lotta herd health problems.

Edit: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/safe/overview.html more reading. I want to point out that Subway is not only banning sub-therapeutic use, but also actually therapeutic use for when an animal falls ill.

I don't understand how Subway could issue that decision and not understand that it would mean any animal that falls sick will be killed instead of treated because the meat can't be sold afterwards, EVEN IF you observe normal withdrawal periods and all that. I think it's totally reasonable not to use sub-therapeutic doses that are supposed to be preventative but are just contributing to creating more antibiotic resistant bacteria but... it doesn't make sense to say that any animal who has ever had an antibiotic is unsafe for human consumption. What?!?!
 
I don't understand how Subway could issue that decision and not understand that it would mean any animal that falls sick will be killed instead of treated because the meat can't be sold afterwards, EVEN IF you observe normal withdrawal periods and all that. I think it's totally reasonable not to use sub-therapeutic doses that are supposed to be preventative but are just contributing to creating more antibiotic resistant bacteria but... it doesn't make sense to say that any animal who has ever had an antibiotic is unsafe for human consumption. What?!?!
isn't it great what grassroots movements that don't understand medicine and the food industry can do when they band together?

(that was sarcasm, btw)
 
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I had a waiter who started going on and on about how they use locally sources ingredients (which was all very nice) and la di da~ and they use chicken that are raised free range without any hormones. And I couldn't stop myself and blurted, oh how nice. but no poultry operations use hormones. It's illegal. Just so you know.
 
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I had a waiter who started going on and on about how they use locally sources ingredients (which was all very nice) and la di da~ and they use chicken that are raised free range without any hormones. And I couldn't stop myself and blurted, oh how nice. but no poultry operations use hormones. It's illegal. Just so you know.
YES OH MY GOD I WANT TO SHOUT THIS FROM A MOUNTAINTOP EVERY TIME
 
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I don't understand how Subway could issue that decision and not understand that it would mean any animal that falls sick will be killed instead of treated because the meat can't be sold afterwards, EVEN IF you observe normal withdrawal periods and all that. I think it's totally reasonable not to use sub-therapeutic doses that are supposed to be preventative but are just contributing to creating more antibiotic resistant bacteria but... it doesn't make sense to say that any animal who has ever had an antibiotic is unsafe for human consumption. What?!?!
Chipotle pulled this **** too. The carnitas in our area is from a source that does use antibiotics therapeutically, so they had a special sign posted that was like a warning or whatever that the particular source didn't adhere completely to their antibiotic standards :rolleyes:
 
I don't understand how Subway could issue that decision and not understand that it would mean any animal that falls sick will be killed instead of treated because the meat can't be sold afterwards, EVEN IF you observe normal withdrawal periods and all that. I think it's totally reasonable not to use sub-therapeutic doses that are supposed to be preventative but are just contributing to creating more antibiotic resistant bacteria but... it doesn't make sense to say that any animal who has ever had an antibiotic is unsafe for human consumption. What?!?!
The secret main reason sub-therapeutic use occurs is because it results in some significant increases in production. If you eliminate sub-therapeutic doses but still allow the treatment of sick animals, we're still looking at potential economic crises.

Either way, people seem to easily look past our human doctors, who hand out antibiotics at the sound of a sniffle. Antibacterial soaps, clothing, sprays, etc. are all contributing as well. That PBS link also has a quote that says hospital workers are likely receiving constant low-level exposure to antibiotics at work, too.
I had a waiter who started going on and on about how they use locally sources ingredients (which was all very nice) and la di da~ and they use chicken that are raised free range without any hormones. And I couldn't stop myself and blurted, oh how nice. but no poultry operations use hormones. It's illegal. Just so you know.
And our vision of "free-range" is very different from what poultry farms consider "free range."
 
I think there is an opportunity for tit for tat, though. If a "guardian" brings in a sick animal and then declines care, I think they should be culpable under the law for withholding care; in other words, if people are reclassified as guardians, I think they should be legally obligated to provide a minimum standard of care to their guardianships.

It ought to cut both ways. We shouldn't be held to higher liability if owners won't be held to higher standards of care. But cynical LIS thinks it would only be directed at us and our liability and owners would still be allowed to provide as little care as they wanted.

I'm not so sure that holding owners legally liable for care is necessarily a good thing, either. Humans have access to resources if their child needs medical care, and they're unable to provide it. Without a support system to take care of cases where guardians can't afford treatment, you'd basically be limiting pet guardianship to those who are able to afford the minimum standard of care, regardless of the circumstance. Some people really do believe that the poor and middle class don't "deserve" to own pets unless they can pay for all expenses, even a foreign body surgery or emergency hemilaminectomy, but I disagree. And even if I did agree, how do you logistically limit pet guardianship to that subset of people who can afford pets? What kind of enforcement would you need? What would happen to pets who were denied care? Would you fine the owners? And what would happen after that? Are people going to have to pay a fine AND pay for treatment? What happens to repeat offenders? If the animals are seized, where do they go, and who then covers treatment?

And how do you work a shelter system around this legal and ethical argument that pets are entitled to a minimum standard of care? If the shelter becomes the guardian by taking them in, how do you rearrange everything for them to be in compliance? Or do you make an exception for shelters and end up with a system where a shelter can euthanize a diabetic cat because it doesn't have the resources to manage the case but a guardian who can't afford to treat their diabetic cat gets fined? Wouldn't that just encourage surrenders? If you know you're going to get hit with a fine if you can't afford treatment, why not just dump the animal or drop it off at the shelter and let them deal with it?

This discussion has reminded me of a client I've seen a few times. She has an older dog with a rectal mass who has been beating the odds and hanging in there. After the first time I saw her, the doctor I was working with told me that about a year prior, this woman hit a very rough patch in her life. She lost nearly everything and was living in her car. But she'd still try to scrape up as much money as she could to pay for an exam fee so he could be seen. The doctor and my clinic helped her out a great deal, but there were serious limits to what we could do as far as treatment went. By the time I saw her, she was living over an hour and a half away in her new apartment that she secured after climbing her way out of that hole and landing a good job. She was so thankful for our help that she still comes back. I don't think holding a person like her legally responsible for being temporarily unable to pay for care would do much good.

edit: And talk about legislation. ;) Imagine being called into court to establish what the minimum standard of treatment is for such-and-such because Owner Whatshisface declined this or that but Owner Whatshisface is having Dr. McFluffyPants testify that they did meet the minimum standard of care. And imagine the animal equivalent of all of the cases of parents denying medical treatment for their children based on religious grounds.

You don't think that people would be willing to spend more money if their pets were more like their children?

Like LIS said, what the law says has no bearing on the bond people have with their animals. You could give dogs legal rights equal to human beings, and you'd still get the "it's just a dog" and "she doesn't hunt so well anymore so get rid of her" people. You can't really alter people's relationships with their pets or their views on animals any more than you can their politics. Some people may be open-minded and may change, but the law has nothing to do with it. And none of that has any bearing on how much money someone has in their bank account and how willing they are to part with some of it.
 
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I'm not so sure that holding owners legally liable for care is necessarily a good thing, either. Humans have access to resources if their child needs medical care, and they're unable to provide it. Without a support system to take care of cases where guardians can't afford treatment, you'd basically be limiting pet guardianship to those who are able to afford the minimum standard of care, regardless of the circumstance.

Exactly. And that's part of what makes it such a bad thing. I don't <actually> think that guardians should be held culpable for a minimum standard of care (beyond the level of 'cruelty' that people are already held to), but I do think that people shouldn't have it both ways: they shouldn't be able to sue us for hundreds of thousands in emotional distress, but then not be legally obligated to provide a minimum standard of care for their pets. That's not fair to us, and it would be an unequal application of the concept of people as guardians.

That, to me, is contradictory.
 
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Right, agreed.

It's like all of those people who think that emergency hospitals should be legally obligated to treat all pets, just as human emergency rooms are required to treat all humans. Aside from the fact that ERs only have to stabilize people and not actually treat every condition, obligation to treat needs to mean obligation to pay, and with no government subsidy, that means you, owner buddy! In my experience, people shut up real quick or turn beet red when you point that out...
 
There are GI issues in my experience. But the bigger thing that I'm concerned about is that almost every case of crystals in the urine that I have seen have been feeding Blue. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but...higher protein content would make a better environment for them to form in a way that makes sense. More protein = more ammonia = more pH disruption to the urine. I'd really like to see studies on this.
How does one go about starting a study that would potentially ruin a brand?

Side note: I've been trying to get my sister to switch from Blue Buffalo for years. She tells me I'm an idiot. Why wouldn't you want to feed a brand that does legitimate feeding trials?
 
How does one go about starting a study that would potentially ruin a brand?

Side note: I've been trying to get my sister to switch from Blue Buffalo for years. She tells me I'm an idiot. Why wouldn't you want to feed a brand that does legitimate feeding trials?
You wouldn't have to discredit a brand. Any grain free high protein diet could potentially do the same thing over the life of a dog or cat. Would be interesting to see if they have increased incidences of renal disease or if it is just anecdotal
 
Free pro tip: The people who tell you in the exam room that "money is no object, do whatever it takes" or "I don't care how much it costs, do whatever you need to do" <most> of the time will turn around and throw a fit when they see the actual cost. There are some that genuinely mean it, but they are the minority.
True story. We had a guy call a few weeks ago saying he was on his way because his dog had a broken leg. Since he'd never been to us before, I started to give him the standard spiel about the cost of an office visit and x-rays, that we don't do payment plans, etc. and he cuts me off like "I don't care, I'll do whatever I need to get her fixed up." Okay, great. Then after his dog's been seen and her leg splinted, somehow his total ended up being ~$100 more than he expected. (I wasn't in the room, so I don't know what the doctor discussed with him as far as cost or where he got the idea that it was going to be less than it was.) He was annoyed, but he paid, and then a few days later I guess he called back and talked with one of the morning receptionists about having to come back for rebandaging, and he was pissed about having to spend more money on her and told us to fax his records to a different clinic. Okay, whatever. :rolleyes: He was also very short with me when I did the standard call a couple days after we'd seen the dog to check on how she was doing.
 
Right, agreed.

It's like all of those people who think that emergency hospitals should be legally obligated to treat all pets, just as human emergency rooms are required to treat all humans. Aside from the fact that ERs only have to stabilize people and not actually treat every condition, obligation to treat needs to mean obligation to pay, and with no government subsidy, that means you, owner buddy! In my experience, people shut up real quick or turn beet red when you point that out...
This is true in vet med, we are obligated to provide emergency treatment. We cannot turn people away at the door.

That means "stabilize" or euthanize. We're not obligated beyond that.
 
This is true in vet med, we are obligated to provide emergency treatment. We cannot turn people away at the door.

That means "stabilize" or euthanize. We're not obligated beyond that.

I didn't know that. Does this vary from state to state? I don't recall this being the case at the emergency/specialty place I worked at. We had owners decline euthanasia and treatment on things like a hemoab, usually due to financial concerns, and we did nothing and sent them home after getting an AMA signed.
 
You are not obligated to take the pet in for life saving surgery. Or give transfusions or anything like that. How much actual care you provide without requiring payment will depend on you and your employer.
 
Ah, gotcha. I was interpreting it in a different way, like in human medicine where someone bleeding out internally would be taken straight to surgery without any concern for ability to pay. So triage and assessment do count as some form of service/treatment, then. I didn't realize that was a legal obligation. Pretty sure we turned away some loons here and there without so much as a triage, but the one I remembered vividly had a dog that wasn't his (plus he kept saying, "This is the President's dog!!!!") and that wasn't sick at all, so that probably doesn't count. :p
 
Pretty sure we turned away some loons here and there without so much as a triage, but the one I remembered vividly had a dog that wasn't his (plus he kept saying, "This is the President's dog!!!!") and that wasn't sick at all, so that probably doesn't count. :p
That reminds me, the other day we got an amusing record faxed to us from the local emergency clinic that described how the client was convinced their security cameras were put there by ISIS to spy on him, among other strange behavior. o_O
 
I agree with a lot of the previously noted reasons why guardianship would be a challenge for owners, veterinarians, and vet techs alike. I also acknowledge the equity issue for chronic or emergency care patients.

But I'm curious if there would be any improvements if there were a shift from ownership to guardianship. There have been many instances where laws did not necessarily render immediate cultural/public service change of an ethical issue, but did offer a foundation for policy and social change to sow. I'm thinking suffrage for women, the elimination of segregation in public educational institutions after Brown vs. Board of Education, and most recently last summer, the Supreme Court Decision to require all states to issue and recognize gay marriage. I'm convinced that without the lawful enactment of the aforementioned policies local, state, and federal government bodies would not have bothered to explore how to logistically and lawfully execute the services each law required.

On another side of the issue, these laws and their resultant policies/services also likely supported a cultural and philosophical shift. I'm sure there's some out there that can speak to this better than I can, but I've noticed that demographics and race are a major consideration in most organizations, that women are occupying the work place and are attempting to reach equal pay, and LGBT groups are finding some political recognition and gaining better access to health care.

I guess I'm curious if shifting the responsibility to guardianship legally can similarly affect the welfare of the animal in the future if we could create or inspire resources/services for clients, pets, and veterinary providers.
 
That reminds me, the other day we got an amusing record faxed to us from the local emergency clinic that described how the client was convinced their security cameras were put there by ISIS to spy on him, among other strange behavior. o_O
Why would that be in a medical record?
 
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Because sometimes, you need to put in history that matters.
Don't see how that's relevant to the patient's medical history, but I guess putting an alert on the record that questions the patient's sanity is okay?

Whenever we've had a client who had strange behaviors, we tried to avoid noting things like that in a legal record about their pet unless it interfered with treatment or the client was a threat to staff (in which case, we would make an alert to no longer schedule appointments). Just my two cents.
 
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We always put notes of strange/inappropriate behavior on the client account so that way, the doctors were aware of said behavior in future interactions with the client and have a heads up
 
Don't see how that's relevant to the patient's medical history, but I guess putting an alert on the record that questions the patient's sanity is okay?

Whenever we've had a client who had strange behaviors, we tried to avoid noting things like that in a legal record about their pet unless it interfered with treatment or the client was a threat to staff (in which case, we would make an alert to no longer schedule appointments). Just my two cents.

I would personally really appreciate a heads up that the client bringing in an animal for follow-up thinks they're being spied on by ISIS.
 
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But I'm curious if there would be any improvements if there were a shift from ownership to guardianship.

I think most of us agree that there would be an negative impact on animal welfare.

Also, how would animal slaughter work if animals were under guardianship? The cattle ranchers are able to sell their animals for slaughter because they own them. If they were guardians instead, would that even be legal (depending on how far we let this rabbit hole go)?
 
Don't see how that's relevant to the patient's medical history, but I guess putting an alert on the record that questions the patient's sanity is okay?

Whenever we've had a client who had strange behaviors, we tried to avoid noting things like that in a legal record about their pet unless it interfered with treatment or the client was a threat to staff (in which case, we would make an alert to no longer schedule appointments). Just my two cents.
you don't think that a paranoid and/or delusional person may impact their pet's health? I think it's absolutely pertinent. Just my 2 cents.
 
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We always put notes of strange/inappropriate behavior on the client account so that way, the doctors were aware of said behavior in future interactions with the client and have a heads up
I've always been taught that putting personal observations about a client/their mental health into a medical record is inappropriate unless, again, if the client was a true threat or just was intolerable in the clinic. We've received/made phone calls to other clinics regarding those situations.
 
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I've always been taught that putting personal observations about a client/their mental health into a medical record is inappropriate unless, again, if the client was a true threat or just was intolerable in the clinic. We've received/made phone calls to other clinics regarding those situations.

What constitutes a true threat? Grey strikes again.
 
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I think most of us agree that there would be an negative impact on animal welfare.

Also, how would animal slaughter work if animals were under guardianship? The cattle ranchers are able to sell their animals for slaughter because they own them. If they were guardians instead, would that even be legal (depending on how far we let this rabbit hole go)?


I just assumed there would be a specified state by state mandate that would apply for each animal, depending upon type. So for food animals, many of them necessarily will be slaughtered; guardianship (variant upon the state) would hold the guardian responsible for preventative care and illness up until a specified date, as determined by the guardian and probably approved by some other entity. For companion animals, maybe guardianship (again, variant upon state) would mandate preventative care, including spay/neuter and pallative/chronic/emergency care as possible.

With a cultural shift in expectations of animal welfare and lawful reinforcement, resources and services to meet the emergency care/chronic care financial hurdles may manifest due to demand.
 
you don't think that a paranoid and/or delusional person may impact their pet's health? I think it's absolutely pertinent. Just my 2 cents.
I'm not trained to determine the mental status of a client. I can make assumptions based off of brief interactions, but that's it. A completely mentally healthy client can also negatively impact their pet's health.
What constitutes a true threat? Grey strikes again.
You can assume a client who seems paranoid may be a threat to you, but then we're looking at that darn mental illness stereotype. Just because someone may or actually does have a mental illness doesn't mean they will ever pose a threat to you or staff. It's true that they could, but that goes for any human being. If we're going to walk around assuming every person muttering under their breath or talking about security cameras is a potential threat, then we're part of the problem. Based off of Lyra's post, either the clinic didn't give her much detail, or he didn't do anything further than saying he felt watched by ISIS/whatever other behaviors he exhibited. If he was a legitimate threat (not just the general discomfort people experience around someone they believe to be mentally ill) at the previous clinic, the police should have been called.
 
I guess at the end of the day it's really dependent upon what kind of legal action "guardianship" necessitates.
 
I'm not trained to determine the mental status of a client. I can make assumptions based off of brief interactions, but that's it. A completely mentally healthy client can also negatively impact their pet's health.
the note never said that they were unhealthy mentally. They described the behavior, which may indicate other impacts on the pet's health.
 
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I'm not trained to determine the mental status of a client. I can make assumptions based off of brief interactions, but that's it. A completely mentally healthy client can also negatively impact their pet's health.

You can assume a client who seems paranoid may be a threat to you, but then we're looking at that darn mental illness stereotype. Just because someone may or actually does have a mental illness doesn't mean they will ever pose a threat to you or staff. It's true that they could, but that goes for any human being. If we're going to walk around assuming every person muttering under their breath or talking about security cameras is a potential threat, then we're part of the problem. Based off of Lyra's post, either the clinic didn't give her much detail, or he didn't do anything further than saying he felt watched by ISIS/whatever other behaviors he exhibited. If he was a legitimate threat (not just the general discomfort people experience around someone they believe to be mentally ill) at the previous clinic, the police should have been called.

I've always been taught to document everything. That way there is no he said/she said, and it's all there for the vets and practice manager to see. Doesn't matter if mental status is involved or not, I document everything!
 
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I'm not trained to determine the mental status of a client. I can make assumptions based off of brief interactions, but that's it. A completely mentally healthy client can also negatively impact their pet's health.

You can assume a client who seems paranoid may be a threat to you, but then we're looking at that darn mental illness stereotype. Just because someone may or actually does have a mental illness doesn't mean they will ever pose a threat to you or staff. It's true that they could, but that goes for any human being. If we're going to walk around assuming every person muttering under their breath or talking about security cameras is a potential threat, then we're part of the problem. Based off of Lyra's post, either the clinic didn't give her much detail, or he didn't do anything further than saying he felt watched by ISIS/whatever other behaviors he exhibited. If he was a legitimate threat (not just the general discomfort people experience around someone they believe to be mentally ill) at the previous clinic, the police should have been called.
Notes are just that. Notes. It comes to no harm if the client is eccentric and everyone is fine, but what about when it comes down to something happens and that medical record is valuable evidence? Writing everything down is fine in my mind, because it is useful in one way or another to the people who read it. Does it mean that the next vet who reads your observations may be biased, yes. But that is where being a supposedly intelligent person having made it through medical training should come into play and said person acts accordingly and then makes up their own mind.
 
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Notes are just that. Notes. It comes to no harm if the client is eccentric and everyone is fine, but what about when it comes down to something happens and that medical record is valuable evidence? Writing everything down is fine in my mind, because it is useful in one way or another to the people who read it. Does it mean that the next vet who reads your observations may be biased, yes. But that is where being a supposedly intelligent person having made it through medical training should come into play and said person acts accordingly and then makes up their own mind.
You would hope.
 
I guess at the end of the day it's really dependent upon what kind of legal action "guardianship" necessitates.

I agree. The problem is that the main groups pushing for guardianship (PETA as the prime example), would not allow for a difference in treatment between pets and food animals.
 
I'm not trained to determine the mental status of a client. I can make assumptions based off of brief interactions, but that's it. A completely mentally healthy client can also negatively impact their pet's health.

I would never write "client delusional, or mental stability of client questionable" or anything of that nature as I'm not qualified to assess such things. Those are interpretations.

But I log client communications objectively in the medical record. These things matter if things go south.
 
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