3rd year grades

[WilburSK]

How does your school do third year grades? Is there a good thread/website about the different school policies?

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[Jlaw]

Shelf score only. Preceptor review doesn't factor in unless they fail you and then you fail the rotation and have to repeat regardless of your shelf result.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Shelf score only. Preceptor review doesn't factor in unless they fail you and then you fail the rotation and have to repeat regardless of your shelf result.

Holy crap are you serious? What school do you go to, I need to look into their transfer policy.

 

[DermViser]

Shelf score only. Preceptor review doesn't factor in unless they fail you and then you fail the rotation and have to repeat regardless of your shelf result.

 

[Jlaw]

Holy crap are you serious? What school do you go to, I need to look into their transfer policy.

KCUMB, they didn't feel like preceptors were grading uniformly because our clinical sites are all over the country..i.e. a surgeon at a sleepy practice KS might give someone a high pass while a student on the same rotation at a level 1 center in Denver might perform equally and only get a pass. I assume they saw a disconnect between written evals and shelf scores when comparing different sites so now they just go by our NBME score for core rotations. Preceptor evals can still fail you if they are bad but they can't help you if they are good, other than being mentioned in your deans letter. Not sure how it works for non core where we don't have to take a shelf.

 

[hallowmann]

Some people here (LECOM) told me 70/30, preceptor-eval/shelf. Can't for the life of me find it documented anywhere though.

 

[Kaustikos]

KCUMB, they didn't feel like preceptors were grading uniformly because our clinical sites are all over the country..i.e. a surgeon at a sleepy practice KS might give someone a high pass while a student on the same rotation at a level 1 center in Denver might perform equally and only get a pass. I assume they saw a disconnect between written evals and shelf scores when comparing different sites so now they just go by our NBME score for core rotations. Preceptor evals can still fail you if they are bad but they can't help you if they are good, other than being mentioned in your deans letter. Not sure how it works for non core where we don't have to take a shelf.

You're the exception, not the norm. Shelf + evals +/- whatever else bull**** like handjobs, class, homework, professionalism.

 

[DermViser]

KCUMB, they didn't feel like preceptors were grading uniformly because our clinical sites are all over the country..i.e. a surgeon at a sleepy practice KS might give someone a high pass while a student on the same rotation at a level 1 center in Denver might perform equally and only get a pass. I assume they saw a disconnect between written evals and shelf scores when comparing different sites so now they just go by our NBME score for core rotations. Preceptor evals can still fail you if they are bad but they can't help you if they are good, other than being mentioned in your deans letter. Not sure how it works for non core where we don't have to take a shelf.

Now PDs will know to take less stock in KCUMB grades.

 

[572776]

I take that back

 

[Jlaw]

Yeah its a shortsighted policy that overlooks the fact that 3rd year not so much about being a good test taker as it is about developing intangibles such as building rapport, working as part of a team, and handling the day to day things that come with being a doctor. It rewards the book smart student while ignoring the fact that a lot of the time the book smart students don't make the best clinicians. I think the majority of my classmates feel this way about it.

 

[Raryn]

Now PDs will know to take less stock in KCUMB grades.

To be honest, I bet a good portion of the schools have systems that basically amount to the same in the end. My school had the shelf count from anywhere from 20-50% of the grade, but basically everyone else got 100% on the bull**** portions (small groups, papers, whatever) and most people got pretty similar preceptor evals. So, assuming you weren't a total rockstar or dip**** (or just really really unlucky/lucky with preceptors), your grade in the end for the majority of the core clerkships probably correlated pretty well to your shelf score.

 

[DermViser]

To be honest, I bet a good portion of the schools have systems that basically amount to the same in the end. My school had the shelf count from anywhere from 20-50% of the grade, but basically everyone else got 100% on the bull**** portions (small groups, papers, whatever) and most people got pretty similar preceptor evals. So, assuming you weren't a total rockstar or dip**** (or just really really unlucky/lucky with preceptors), your grade in the end for the majority of the core clerkships probably correlated pretty well to your shelf score.

Yes but to only have to get a "Pass" on the evals, and get a high enough on the shelf and still get Honors bc your grade is 100% the shelf exam score?

 

[DermViser]

Yeah its a shortsighted policy that overlooks the fact that 3rd year not so much about being a good test taker as it is about developing intangibles such as building rapport, working as part of a team, and handling the day to day things that come with being a doctor. It rewards the book smart student while ignoring the fact that a lot of the time the book smart students don't make the best clinicians. I think the majority of my classmates feel this way about it.

Perfect for the SDNer who believes standardized exam scores are your self worth when it comes to residency.

 

[Raryn]

Yes but to only have to get a "Pass" on the evals, and get a high enough on the shelf and still get Honors bc your grade is 100% the shelf exam score?

Yeah, that wouldn't happen to us. But you could easily get a high pass from the shelf alone. You generally needed to do well in every section (but especially the shelf) to get an H.

That said, evals were of course a large/the largest portion of the grade in theory. It's just that there wasn't enough variation for them to actually matter that much in practice. People ranging from a 7-9 on a 9 point scale was nothing like people ranging from 1st percentile to 99th percentile on the shelf, and that wide variation made the points the shelf gave you the ones that were generally most needed to push you over into the next grade category.

 

[DermViser]

Yeah, that wouldn't happen to us. But you could easily get a high pass from the shelf alone. You generally needed to do well in every section (but especially the shelf) to get an H.

That said, evals were of course a large/the largest portion of the grade in theory. It's just that there wasn't enough variation for them to actually matter that much in practice. People ranging from a 7-9 on a 9 point scale was nothing like people ranging from 1st percentile to 99th percentile on the shelf, and that wide variation made the points the shelf gave you the ones that were generally most needed to push you over into the next grade category.

The shelf's main purpose is to help the HPs into the H category. Unlike KCUMB above though, it would never be 100% of the grade. If it was, med students would do even less than they do now.

 

[Kaustikos]

The shelf's main purpose is to help the HPs into the H category. Unlike KCUMB above though, it would never be 100% of the grade. If it was, med students would do even less than they do now.

Like never go to the hospital.

 

[Psai]

Like never go to the hospital.

I've considered this