Academic anesthesiologists - paternity leave

[anbuitachi]

Looking to get some data. How many of you academic anesthesiologists have paternity leave? If you do, how many weeks do you have and is it paid fully or not?

I'm just surprised my institution offers no paid leave (we can do FMLA for unpaid leave). Paid 'maternity leave" is just using sick days, but fathers are not allowed to do so since they arent the one who is 'sick'.

Is this the norm in medicine/anesthesiology (I know its common to have 4+ weeks for paid paternity leave in other well paid careers like tech/finance)? How many paid weeks do you guys get?

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[kidthor]

At my academic place both parents get 6 weeks “fully” paid (they end up underpaying just a bit).

It’s disgusting and disappointing that all academic institutions don’t give their employees paid newborn leave. It seems their mission statements only apply when convenient.

 

[cchoukal]

Academic VA. 12 weeks as a federal employee. Sick leave is another 3 weeks per year, which accumulates.

 

[Justice4all]

No paternity leave here

 

[ambiturner]

Paternity here is 2 weeks, maternity isn’t even 12 you have to use the FMLA/disability/vacation combo. But as previously documented my job is bad.

Both places I trained at offer 12 weeks paid to both mother and father, but pay is bad even by academic standards.

 

[JiPo]

The more I hear about your job, the more I want to stay away from NYC

 

[Wolverines83]

2 weeks paid for both parents.

Yep....new single mother gets 2 weeks. Horse****

 

[ryanjmy]

paternity leave?

 

[coffeebythelake]

Yeah FMLA allows for up to 12 weeks total. I think we get 4 weeks paid at my institution.

 

[GassYous]

Looking to get some data. How many of you academic anesthesiologists have paternity leave? If you do, how many weeks do you have and is it paid fully or not?

I'm just surprised my institution offers no paid leave (we can do FMLA for unpaid leave). Paid 'maternity leave" is just using sick days, but fathers are not allowed to do so since they arent the one who is 'sick'.

Is this the norm in medicine/anesthesiology (I know its common to have 4+ weeks for paid paternity leave in other well paid careers like tech/finance)? How many paid weeks do you guys get?

Are you though?

 

[abolt18]

Are you though?

Lol

 

[aneftp]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

 

[DoctwoB]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

And you're proud of this?

 

[sevo00]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

damn cool story bro. You’re my hero

 

[DoctwoB]

Look, I get it. Someone not working doesn't earn $. Paid parental leave thus means that someone (i.e. the rest of the group) is paying for it. There's no free lunch.

But guess what? That is true in most businesses, where generous parental leave policies apply. It is viewed as a cost of doing business to offer good benefits like this in order to attract good talent. If the culture were such in medicine it would be so as well. I'd argue that a group is better off taking a small $ hit now and again in order to offer some form of parental benefits, which also may reduce turnover, improve job satisfaction and thus reduce hiring/firing costs. Of course, there's also a moral hazard there, because if you're the only group offering great parental benefits you're going to disproportionately attract people who plan to use them extensively.

 

[Wolverines83]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

Cool story brah. Way to be the internet tough guy. You probably walked uphill in the snow both ways.... I'm sure it's a generational thing.

Newsflash: Unless you fought in the battle of the bulge your generation sucks. And that generation was weak to their parents.

And if weak means being a good spouse then yep, sign me up for the "weak crew." Family >>>>>>> work. Every. Single. Day.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never been in a combat zone let alone been in combat. I have as have plenty of my generation (thanks to a bunch of bozo politicians who are probably from your generation...way to go!).

You're calling us the weak ones? Please. We just have our priorities straight.

 

[kidthor]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

That sounds awful, and I‘m sorry America suggests this work setup is acceptable.

 

[aneftp]

Cool story brah. Way to be the internet tough guy. You probably walked uphill in the snow both ways.... I'm sure it's a generational thing.

Newsflash: Unless you fought in the battle of the bulge your generation sucks. And that generation was weak to their parents.

And if weak means being a good spouse then yep, sign me up for the "weak crew." Family >>>>>>> work. Every. Single. Day.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never been in a combat zone let alone been in combat. I have as have plenty of my generation (thanks to a bunch of bozo politicians who are probably from your generation...way to go!).

You're calling us the weak ones? Please. We just have our priorities straight.

This current gen does not want to work. We all know what. Even my sister who’s a couple years older than me. MD only practice for her. She’s working on call Ob 24 hour goes into labor at 5am (on her 22 hour of duty). She delivers at 10pm

she only took 3 weeks off in her private practice and back at work. She was/is a full partner in her practice.

This current gen. The women docs like to take 2 weeks BEFORE DELIVERY to chill.

than wants to take 4-5 months off.

I guess that works for state or federal employees taking that much time off. But private practice it’s tough on everyone.

 

[Airway]

Previous academic job: 6 weeks paid at 2/3 salary or so.
70+ anesthesiologists, so except for my ICU (which I had planned around) time I wasn't missed.

Also (@aneftp ) I definitely don't want to work.

 

[NICMAN]

The real question is how much time off do you give yourself if you own the company? Is there a difference between the time off you would take if you had to pay the cost yourself vs. how much you can take from other people?
Whenever people talk about fairness and justice they usually would do better to talk about Trade-offs and opportunity Costs.

we have a CRNA who randomly calls out frequently because of family. This year alone she has taken more than 30 days sick leave (child care, kid is sick, etc.) in addition to her vacation. We allow it because we are nice and value family. I get the impression she does it because she doesn’t give a crap about our company and will take whatever she can when she can even though last minute call-outs (usually on Monday) cause chaos.

 

[abolt18]

The real question is how much time off do you give yourself if you own the company? Is there a difference between the time off you would take if you had to pay the cost yourself vs. how much you can take from other people?
Whenever people talk about fairness and justice they usually would do better to talk about Trade-offs and opportunity Costs.

we have a CRNA who randomly calls out frequently because of family. This year alone she has taken more than 30 days sick leave (child care, kid is sick, etc.) in addition to her vacation. We allow it because we are nice and value family. I get the impression she does it because she doesn’t give a crap about our company and will take whatever she can when she can even though last minute call-outs (usually on Monday) cause chaos.

So you start docking her pay or taking away vacation days? Because with that many call-ins she's clearly not holding her end of the employment contract.

 

[Wolverines83]

This current gen does not want to work. We all know what. Even my sister who’s a couple years older than me. MD only practice for her. She’s working on call Ob 24 hour goes into labor at 5am (on her 22 hour of duty). She delivers at 10pm

she only took 3 weeks off in her private practice and back at work. She was/is a full partner in her practice.

This current gen. The women docs like to take 2 weeks BEFORE DELIVERY to chill.

than wants to take 4-5 months off.

I guess that works for state or federal employees taking that much time off. But private practice it’s tough on everyone.

You’re partially correct. We obviously want to work because….well….we work. But I have absolutely no intention of working the way you describe. Why? Because it sounds like a waste of a life to me. We value time over family rather than sacrificing our time with family for the sake of money and/or work.

Those kids take their first breath/steps/etc exactly once….miss that for work/money? **** that. If my colleagues can’t understand that then I have a bunch of ****ty colleagues. On the back side of it, you better believe I’ve taken call for my colleagues so they could be with their families. It goes both ways.

While you might view me as “not wanting to work” I view you as someone who is a slave to their job and afraid to stand up for your family time. You’d rather get back to work than know your family. That’s fine if that’s how you want to live. Seriously. You do you. But don’t critique others because we’ve decided we want to live a different way. It’s just a matter of priorities.

 

[ambiturner]

In aneftp‘s defense I think this is a generational thing. I worked tech industry jobs in college in the late 90s and 2 guys had babies and came to work the next day after the delivery. Watch the episode of Mad Men where Don’s wife has a kid. He’s drinking with another dad in the lobby and the nurses don’t invite them back. There was no such thing as paternity leave. Now that there’s more women in the workforce I think men and women should get equal leave since that would promote fairness in pay/time off/etc.

And while it has been an improvement in quality of life for most of us, you can’t deny that the bargaining power of physicians has been deeply eroded as we have started to work less. NPs and PAs only really started to take off after residency work hours were started in 2003 and have made gains as subsequent restrictions were introduced.

 

[GravelRider]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

Just sounds like bad financial planning to me. You couldn’t afford to take a couple weeks off to make sure your family is settled in after a major life event?

 

[GravelRider]

In aneftp‘s defense I think this is a generational thing. I worked tech industry jobs in college in the late 90s and 2 guys had babies and came to work the next day after the delivery. Watch the episode of Mad Men where Don’s wife has a kid. He’s drinking with another dad in the lobby and the nurses don’t invite them back. There was no such thing as paternity leave. Now that there’s more women in the workforce I think men and women should get equal leave since that would promote fairness in pay/time off/etc.

And while it has been an improvement in quality of life for most of us, you can’t deny that the bargaining power of physicians has been deeply eroded as we have started to work less. NPs and PAs only really started to take off after residency work hours were started in 2003 and have made gains as subsequent restrictions were introduced.

Maybe. But aren’t PAs, NPs, CRNAs, etc just capitalism and the free market at work? Someone comes in and says we can do the same job for cheaper. Midlevels are all about adding efficiency to the market. It sucks for us, but that’s how it goes.

 

[AnesRunner]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

While I completely agree with you about young grads and their utter revulsion to doing basic work, parental leave is a little different. I do support that. Unfortunately, it goes hand-in-hand with young grads' entitlement and feeling that the world revolves around them and their schedule. Complete disregard for staffing and how their actions affect others. Residency programs now cater to residents' "demands" and their unending schedule requests. It's gotten out of control.

For those of you in PP, I don't know how you do it. How you deal with these new hires who have no interest in working. They won't work in training and expect to be coddled, and must be in for culture shock when they get to PP.

 

[anaesthetic]

You millennial guys are weak. We have no family support when my kids were born. I worked all day (private). Wife went into labor. Delivered at 5pm (we also had a 2 year old. A distant relative came to help watch the 2 year old from 4pm-10pm that night.

I came home. Watched the 2 year old. While wife in hospital with c/s with newborn who was born at 5pm. I went to work the next day. And distant relative helped with the 2 year old from 6am-5pm.

I went home from work next day to 5pm to take care of 2 year old and distant relative went home. Thank god it was Friday. Picked up wife 1.5 days in hospital c/s.
Took 1 week off

back to work after 1 week off.
That’s the private practice life.

You were home by 5pm every day? Weak.


Sincerely,
A millennial who works harder than you.

 

[dabears505]

We have 3 under 40 in our small-medium size pp group on a 7-3 track. That track pays more than enough to live really well, so it almost doesn't make sense to not do that. I think I'm the early 90s it was tough getting jobs, so you took what you could get and did whatever hours were needed. Then you just get used to it.

 

[kidthor]

OK boomers…. It used to be that you were loyal to your company and they were loyal to you. That’s certainly not the case anymore - employers will drop you whenever convenient. So why why slave away needlessly when you’re a commodity to the man?

 

[deleted126335]

OK boomers…. It used to be that you were loyal to your company and they were loyal to you. That’s certainly not the case anymore - employers will drop you whenever convenient. So why why slave away needlessly when you’re a commodity to the man?

Except for the OK boomers part... I totally agree. Devotion to work used to be rewarded tangibly and intangibly. Now not so much.
Just as employers continually evaluate the cost/benefit ratio of salary/benefits to us and keeping us employed or replaced, We do the cost/benefit on loyalty and devotion to them. The MBAs, CPAs, JDs have taught us well.

 

[nimbus]

One of my partners just returned from a 9month leave of absence. She had a baby with special needs so she needed extra time off. But we have 100% production based pay so she wasn’t paid during her time off.

 

[cchoukal]

A friend of mine tells a similar story. Twins, premature, pre-term labor, bed rest for a couple months, followed by delivery and 2 months in the NICU. PP, so no pay, and I think even the health insurance benefit became an issue. I guess, like anything, those sorts of factors/risks would need to be weighed when people compare jobs, just like comparing investments. One the one hand, maybe the EWYK PP job has more salary potential, but that has to be weighed against the risk of no pay or benefits in the event of a prolonged medical issue, or, in the case of OR shutdowns during COVID, salary reductions resulting from public health disasters.

I'm at an academic VA, as above, and I do some weeks at the University ICU, so my overall pay is lower than the surrounding PPs, but I took 5 months of banked sick time when my twins were born, and got paid the same during COVID. I suppose these one-time things don't balance out against years of higher salary, but there you are.

 

[nimbus]

A friend of mine tells a similar story. Twins, premature, pre-term labor, bed rest for a couple months, followed by delivery and 2 months in the NICU. PP, so no pay, and I think even the health insurance benefit became an issue. I guess, like anything, those sorts of factors/risks would need to be weighed when people compare jobs, just like comparing investments. One the one hand, maybe the EWYK PP job has more salary potential, but that has to be weighed against the risk of no pay or benefits in the event of a prolonged medical issue, or, in the case of OR shutdowns during COVID, salary reductions resulting from public health disasters.

I'm at an academic VA, as above, and I do some weeks at the University ICU, so my overall pay is lower than the surrounding PPs, but I took 5 months of banked sick time when my twins were born, and got paid the same during COVID. I suppose these one-time things don't balance out against years of higher salary, but there you are.

Yeah we assume all the production risk in private practice. We also pay for our own benefits out of our collections. Our collections taper off for 4 months after we stop working so benefits are paid out of collections during that time. After that we need to write checks to cover our benefits. When we restart work, it again takes about 4 months for our collections to ramp up.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Maybe. But aren’t PAs, NPs, CRNAs, etc just capitalism and the free market at work? Someone comes in and says we can do the same job for cheaper. Midlevels are all about adding efficiency to the market. It sucks for us, but that’s how it goes.

Then don't hide the fact that they are not physicians and pretend their outcomes are the same. Why these midlevel wanabees always trying to pretend they are doctors

 

[GravelRider]

Then don't hide the fact that they are not physicians and pretend their outcomes are the same. Why these midlevel wanabees always trying to pretend they are doctors

What? Why make shoes that vaguely look like Nikes? Why make a watch that resembles a Rolex? Why make a computer that almost looks like a Mac?

 

[coffeebythelake]

What? Why make shoes that vaguely look like Nikes? Why make a watch that resembles a Rolex? Why make a computer that almost looks like a Mac?

I don't care so much that might look alike, but these wanabees are actually saying they are the real deal when they are a cheap knockoff

 

[GravelRider]

I don't care so much that might look alike, but these wanabees are actually saying they are the real deal when they are a cheap knockoff

Why shouldn’t they? Unless there is a law saying they can’t.

I don’t really want to get into a midlevel discussion. I was merely responding to the idea that somehow enforcing resident work hour limits opened the gates for midlevels. I don’t believe that not torturing trainees with sleep deprivation and taking a couple weeks off when your kid is born is the reason we have midlevels. There are many more economic forces in play that have opened things up for midlevels. Midlevels have sold themselves both to the CEOs and the public by saying they add more efficiency at a lower cost compared to physicians. That’s their ad campaign…I’m neither agreeing with it nor disagreeing with it. Whether they are right or wrong is a debate for another thread.

 

[Volatile]

In the military you get 3 weeks paternity leave that is separate from your regular leave

 

[nimbus]

Why shouldn’t they? Unless there is a law saying they can’t.

I don’t really want to get into a midlevel discussion. I was merely responding to the idea that somehow enforcing resident work hour limits opened the gates for midlevels. I don’t believe that not torturing trainees with sleep deprivation and taking a couple weeks off when your kid is born is the reason we have midlevels. There are many more economic forces in play that have opened things up for midlevels. Midlevels have sold themselves both to the CEOs and the public by saying they add more efficiency at a lower cost compared to physicians. That’s their ad campaign…I’m neither agreeing with it nor disagreeing with it. Whether they are right or wrong is a debate for another thread.

I don’t think it was the midlevels that made the sales pitch. Private practice surgeons and proceduralists (cardiology+GI) love midlevels to do their scut for for them. For them it’s like having a permanent long-term resident who knows your practices and preferences and caters to your every whim. Some of them get hospital employed midlevels as part of their contract so they are freed up to do more procedures. The NPs on these services collect all the data, write the H&Ps, round, write the orders, write daily progress notes, write the discharge summary, etc. About the only thing the proceduralists do themselves is the procedure and the procedure note.

 

[jwk]

The real question is how much time off do you give yourself if you own the company? Is there a difference between the time off you would take if you had to pay the cost yourself vs. how much you can take from other people?
Whenever people talk about fairness and justice they usually would do better to talk about Trade-offs and opportunity Costs.

we have a CRNA who randomly calls out frequently because of family. This year alone she has taken more than 30 days sick leave (child care, kid is sick, etc.) in addition to her vacation. We allow it because we are nice and value family. I get the impression she does it because she doesn’t give a crap about our company and will take whatever she can when she can even though last minute call-outs (usually on Monday) cause chaos.

How much time off do you give your CRNA's????? 30 days sick time is already six weeks. AND they get vacation? We use a PTO system that combines all days off - vacation and sick time. 4-9 weeks (20-45 days) based on seniority.

Your system has nothing to do with "nice and value family". You're letting an individual abuse the system. Why do you even tolerate this?

 

[deleted126335]

How much time off do you give your CRNA's????? 30 days sick time is already six weeks. AND they get vacation? We use a PTO system that combines all days off - vacation and sick time. 4-9 weeks (20-45 days) based on seniority.

Your system has nothing to do with "nice and value family". You're letting an individual abuse the system. Why do you even tolerate this?

Probably because they can. Do a search for intermittent FMLA.

 

[ambiturner]

Why shouldn’t they? Unless there is a law saying they can’t.

I don’t really want to get into a midlevel discussion. I was merely responding to the idea that somehow enforcing resident work hour limits opened the gates for midlevels. I don’t believe that not torturing trainees with sleep deprivation and taking a couple weeks off when your kid is born is the reason we have midlevels. There are many more economic forces in play that have opened things up for midlevels. Midlevels have sold themselves both to the CEOs and the public by saying they add more efficiency at a lower cost compared to physicians. That’s their ad campaign…I’m neither agreeing with it nor disagreeing with it. Whether they are right or wrong is a debate for another thread.

And my point was that, when residents worked 120 hours for below minimum wage, there was no economic reason to have mid levels.

This graph tells you all you need to know. Remember, the resident work hours went into effect in 2003.

But I also didn’t mean to derail this into a midlevel discussion so let’s leave it at that.

 

[deleted697535]

Diff country. Fee for service. 0 pat leave. 0 sick pay. 0 pension

 

[NICMAN]

How much time off do you give your CRNA's????? 30 days sick time is already six weeks. AND they get vacation? We use a PTO system that combines all days off - vacation and sick time. 4-9 weeks (20-45 days) based on seniority.

Your system has nothing to do with "nice and value family". You're letting an individual abuse the system. Why do you even tolerate this?

Because we need people to staff the ORs and she is still cheaper than a Locums.

 

[dannyboy1]

2 weeks. AMC employee. Does not come off regular PTO. took every day. Can’t imagine not taking every day you are entitled to. Of course if I was in a PP, things would be different, but I am an employee and will act like one.

 

[narcotics999]

2 weeks. AMC employee. Does not come off regular PTO. took every day. Can’t imagine not taking every day you are entitled to. Of course if I was in a PP, things would be different, but I am an employee and will act like one.

Medicine sucks. I just look at Microsoft parental leave policy: 20weeks for mom and 12 weeks for dad. Paid.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Medicine sucks. I just look at Microsoft parental leave policy: 20weeks for mom and 12 weeks for dad. Paid.

Microsoft is a worldwide conglomerate that will keep going no matter what. Local yokel private practices are not. If somebody is out on leave then someone else is picking up the slack.

 

[nimbus]

Medicine sucks. I just look at Microsoft parental leave policy: 20weeks for mom and 12 weeks for dad. Paid.

 

[lakersbaby]

Private practice is mainly eat what you kill how do you expect the group to pay you paternity leave? they should accomodate time off and you claim FMLA but i wouldnt expect my group to somehow pay me a stipend for not bringing any revenue in. Academics and salary positions are different obviously.

 

[kidthor]

Private practice is indeed its own thing… but academics and salary positions likely all don’t come close to that Microsoft leave.