Academic Dishonesty

[fazd5]

I know there have been a lot of threads on SDN about Academic dishonesty, but I think that my case is a little different so i want some input.

I was accused of cheating on exam. I fought hard to prove my innocence, and believe me I am innocent, but the honor council took the word of the professor and the other proctors to prove me guilty. I was given an F for the course and I retook it the next semester and got an A (which to me only proves my point further that I am innocent). On the transcript, there is no way to find out if this was due to academic dishonesty, as there is no mark next to the F to indicate an act of academic dishonesty.

Obviously this looks bad. I am in a masters program right now at the same university, so hoping to do well in that program to prove my credibility. My question to you guys should I still disclose this to the adcoms when I apply? I have been in a dilemma since no matter what I say to the adcoms, they still won't believe my story, and will think I cheated. Please guys any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

Idk man... multiple people thought you were guilty (professor and other proctorS). If it's not on your transcript and you dont have an IA then i would say don't mention it. However if there is the slightest possibility that there is a record of this then you're pretty screwed either way. Academic dishonesty is pretty career ending from what ive seen on these forums.

Also passing the class next semester with an A doesn't prove anything lol. You could have cheated again but didn't get caught this time.

 

[fazd5]

Idk man... multiple people thought you were guilty (professor and other proctorS). If it's not on your transcript and you dont have an IA then i would say don't mention it. However if there is the slightest possibility that there is a record of this then you're pretty screwed either way. Academic dishonesty is pretty career ending from what ive seen on these forums.

Also passing the class next semester with an A doesn't prove anything lol. You could have cheated again but didn't get caught this time.

Thanks for your input. There is a record of this in my file with the honor council, but not sure if the record is going to made available to other schools, unless asked specifically for it. As far as the multiple proctors saw me, that was the main thing as to why they considered me guilty, but to me i was extremely anxious on that exam since it was a hard course. I tend to get fidgety at times, which proved to be my downfall. Also I had to take the class again with the same professor (he was the only one who taught the course) and made sure I didn't cheat again by placing me in the front of the class next to no one, so yeah i definitely didn't cheat the next time around lol.

I guess i will have to accept my fate that I am doomed and look at something else. Thanks once again

 

[efle]

Having a record of it with the academic honor council sounds like an IA to me. You need to to ask around your school to find out if that gets attached to transcripts, it may just be reported as an additional page instead of showing anything next to the F in the grade itself. If it doesn't get reported, don't mention the IA, and if asked about the F at interviews you'd probably have to be pretty unethical and fabricate something (missed an exam after the drop date etc) to stand a chance.

 

[fazd5]

Having a record of it with the academic honor council sounds like an IA to me. You need to to ask around your school to find out if that gets attached to transcripts, it may just be reported as an additional page instead of showing anything next to the F in the grade itself. If it doesn't get reported, don't mention the IA, and if asked about the F at interviews you'd probably have to be pretty unethical and fabricate something (missed an exam after the drop date etc) to stand a chance.

There was a asterisk next to the F that indicated academic dishonesty, but since it was my first offense, they allowed me to do a remediation program to remove that asterisk, therefore it now looks like a class I just received an F on. I talked to my advisors about it when I was in undergrad, and they said I would talk about it since you don't want to be caught being a liar, but that to me seems like an answer everyone would say just to be honest. I may have asked about this to the honor council, and if I remember correctly, they did say that this won't show up to other schools, but I will ask around to see if it will get reported for sure or not. Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated!

 

[AdviceMower]

at the end of the day do you want to come clean or hide it? what would adcoms wants to know? the answer is they would want to know the whole story. you know that. so come clean and lay it out.

 

[efle]

Yup talk directly to the honor council and find out if this would get mentioned as any kind of addendum or be mentioned in committee letter if you school writes them. Advisors can't really tell you to lie, but being honest about a cheating violation is an absolute death sentence. If you really are innocent imo it's justified to lie your ass off.

what would adcoms wants to know? the answer is they would want to know the whole story. you know that. so come clean and lay it out.

strongly disagree

P1 truth is he is innocent
P2 the adcoms will not believe he is innocent
P3 the adcoms will not accept someone they believe guilty of cheating
_____________________________________________________
C1 lying to create equivalent perception to innocence (ie, F is not from cheating) is both the only chance to get an accept, and leaves an impression actually closer to the truth.

 

[deleted393595]

I know there have been a lot of threads on SDN about Academic dishonesty, but I think that my case is a little different so i want some input.

I was accused of cheating on physiology exam during my senior year. I fought hard to prove my innocence, and believe me I am innocent, but the honor council took the word of the professor and the other proctors to prove me guilty. I was given an F for the course and I retook it the next semester and got an A (which to me only proves my point further that I am innocent). On the transcript, there is no way to find out if this was due to academic dishonesty, as there is no mark next to the F to indicate an act of academic dishonesty.

Obviously this looks bad since its a physiology class, a core class for medical school. I am in a masters program right now at the same university, so hoping to do well in that program to prove my credibility. My question to you guys should I still disclose this to the adcoms when I apply? I have been in a dilemma since no matter what I say to the adcoms, they still won't believe my story, and will think I cheated. Please guys any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

As the wise LizzyM always says, there's more to your story than you're telling us.

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

yeah seriously this doesn't look good for OP. Again, if there's any chance of a record that can be traced back to academic dishonesty then its over. OP can't come clean either because no adcom is going to believe him OR risk accepting him. Why risk such an applicant when there are thousands of non academic dishonesty applicants. Only option is to lie but that would only work if there is no record of this incident.

 

[fazd5]

As the wise LizzyM always says, there's more to your story than you're telling us.

I am being completely honest here. The only other evidence they had was a statistical analysis that showed the probability of me cheating was about 53%. In my defense, I was able to take that evidence out because the way the professor counted that probability was biased. I did some research on the method that he used on how he calculated the evidence, and I was able to come to the conclusion that he is not definitive. In fact, the professor himself told me that this probability is not definitive. Furthermore, the professor is biased towards this analysis because he was the one who came up with it during his masters degree and therefore he thinks my method is true. Also when the honor council was showing me all the analysis during that exam, another student had a 60% probability that he/she have cheated, but since the professor didn't notice that person cheating, he/she is not is not even in the picture. That to me itself proves that this statistical method id crap.

 

[22031 Alum]

Do you realize that the fact that it even came down to analyzing the statistical chance of cheating is not a mark in your favor?

 

[efle]

What in the **** is a statistical analysis for probability of cheating? Like it's supposed to say if a student gets an A when they previously had C's, and the person next to them on exam day also got an A, they have X% chance of having cheated?

Do you realize that the fact that it even came down to analyzing the statistical chance of cheating is not a mark in your favor?

Yeah obvs being accused of cheating isn't a mark in an applicant's favor, but there's no way the system has 0% false positive rate when all you need is preponderance and they're open to things like a probability of cheating algorithm!

 

[deleted393595]

I am being completely honest here. The only other evidence they had was a statistical analysis that showed the probability of me cheating was about 53%. In my defense, I was able to take that evidence out because the way the professor counted that probability was biased. I did some research on the method that he used on how he calculated the evidence, and I was able to come to the conclusion that he is not definitive. In fact, the professor himself told me that this probability is not definitive. Furthermore, the professor is biased towards this analysis because he was the one who came up with it during his masters degree and therefore he thinks my method is true. Also when the honor council was showing me all the analysis during that exam, another student had a 60% probability that he/she have cheated, but since the professor didn't notice that person cheating, he/she is not is not even in the picture. That to me itself proves that this statistical method id crap.

What was the other evidence presented to the honors council?

 

[fazd5]

What was the other evidence presented to the honors council?

multiple proctors stated they saw me cheating.

 

[fazd5]

What in the **** is a statistical analysis for probability of cheating? Like it's supposed to say if a student gets an A when they previously had C's, and the person next to them on exam day also got an A, they have X% chance of having cheated?


Yeah obvs being accused of cheating isn't a mark in an applicant's favor, but there's no way the system has 0% false positive rate when all you need is preponderance and they're open to things like a probability of cheating algorithm!

The method is bayesian analysis and the way he looks at it is by comparing the similarities in the answers in my test and the person i cheated from. Plus based on what he saw, he calculates the whole probability of the likelihood that I cheated on this test. Thats the gist of what I got from how he explained it to me, but like i said, he said this method is not definitive, but along with what I saw, I think its pretty good enough that I cheated. I asked him that if you are pretty sure that I cheated, why does your analysis only show 53% probability, instead of being like 100%? He had no answer, and I just left his office because I knew there was no way I could win this argument.

 

[fazd5]

Do you realize that the fact that it even came down to analyzing the statistical chance of cheating is not a mark in your favor?

Usually its a 50-50 chance that you either cheated or didn't, and sure 53% is higher than 50%, but there is still that 47% chance that I didn't cheat. To me that is way higher when he thinks I have cheated for sure.

 

[IlDestriero]

4 proctors stated they saw me cheating.

Well they all must be wrong.
I don't know what you were doing, but you definitely were doing something bizarre during that test.

 

[efle]

Was this a free response exam or multiple choice?

Well they all must be wrong.
I don't know what you were doing, but you definitely were doing something bizarre during that test.

Probably looking around too much!

 

[fazd5]

Was this a free response exam or multiple choice?


Probably looking around too much!

Multiple choice exam.
And yeah I was looking around too much, but not on the other person's exam (there was only one person next to me, the other side was empty). I was really anxious on that test, but they clearly don't believe that.

 

[fazd5]

If I were to lie about the F, and since I am in a master's program right now, do you guys think adcoms won't think too much about the F being related to academic dishonesty, and just buy the lie i say on the interview?

 

[ruedjgtc]

If I were to lie about the F, and since I am in a master's program right now, do you guys think adcoms won't think too much about the F being related to academic dishonesty, and just buy the lie i say on the interview?

You know, you somehow just made it more plausible to why people think you may have cheated.

*post edit* misinterpreted what the OP might by lying in this case, i.e. "lying to say that they cheated".

 

[IlDestriero]

Lying is always the best way forward, and the best way to enter an honorable profession.
Good luck.

 

[fazd5]

You know, you somehow just made it more plausible to why people think you may have cheated.

If i say the truth what happened, adcoms won't believe my story. If they somehow buy my lie, I have a chance of getting in to medical school. Like I said, I didn't cheat on that test, it was just my **** luck that I m in this situation for something I didn't do.

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

I try to believe people are telling the truth on SDN, i mean there's really no reason to lie. OP's situation seems to be just really bad luck. Sometimes **** happens. But I'm 99% sure if he tells the truth he wont get in. He can tell the truth and claim to be falsely accused but I doubt adcoms would like that. If anything it makes OP look immature and incapable of taking responsibilities for his own actions. He can admit to cheating, take responsibility, and say he's grown and matured since then but that'll make him a high risk applicant. Kind of a lose lose situation =/

 

[efle]

If I were to lie about the F, and since I am in a master's program right now, do you guys think adcoms won't think too much about the F being related to academic dishonesty, and just buy the lie i say on the interview?

There's a good chance they won't believe it, but it's the only chance you've got, much better than admitting to a cheating conviction.

Lying is always the best way forward, and the best way to enter an honorable profession.
Good luck.

Like I said above, assuming he really is innocent, lying makes quite a bit of sense.

 

[ruedjgtc]

If i say the truth what happened, adcoms won't believe my story. If they somehow buy my lie, I have a chance of getting in to medical school. Like I said, I didn't cheat on that test, it was just my **** luck that I m in this situation for something I didn't do.

I stand corrected, I got confused by what you meant by lie (i.e. on the premise that you didn't cheat).

If that's the case, I'm with the universal "lie" to take responsibility. Even if in reality it's BS, because no one is going to believe you once foul has been cried this loudly.

Sorry OP

 

[fazd5]

To make matters even worse, my permanent resident application is pending, so I know most MD schools are out of the picture anyway. The only real shot i have is DO schools, and there is not that many in the country that I can afford (I can't get student loans because I am not a citizen). So yeah I know I am really screwed.

 

[fazd5]

I stand corrected, I got confused by what you meant by lie (i.e. on the premise that you didn't cheat).

If that's the case, I'm with the universal "lie" to take responsibility. Even if in reality it's BS, because no one is going to believe you once foul has been cried this loudly.

Sorry OP

Like MyNameWasUsed said, if I say the truth i m done. Sure they may give me points for being honest, but there is no way they will accept a student who has an IA, when there are countless other applicants well qualified and no IA on their record. At this point, all I can think of is to lie to somehow have any chance of getting in.

 

[Goro]

You're stuck in between a rock and a hard place, I'm afraid.

First off, if an Adcom knows about this IA, your medical career is over, for at least a good 5-10 years.

But the problem you're facing is the risk of what happens if you don't mention the IA.

A single F in a sea of good grades will probably elicit questions from interviews ("so what's up with that F in Physiology, Faz?") What are you going to do? Lie??

Admissions deans check up on candidates or acceptees. IF you are accepted, and it's discovered that you lied about this, your acceptance can be rescinded. You could be expelled if it's discovered after you matriculate. Can you take the chance that a LOR writer will mention this ("Faz has improved wonderfully as a student and person since his conviction of the dishonesty charge years ago; you wouldn't believe he's the same person...")

My standard advice is to think strongly about your Plan B, and if Medicine is truly your goal, that you display from now on exemplary behavior, especially in positions of authority, like being a TA, teacher, some other supervisory role, or in Finance. Or join the military once you get your green card.

I know there have been a lot of threads on SDN about Academic dishonesty, but I think that my case is a little different so I want some input.

I was accused of cheating on physiology exam during my senior year. I fought hard to prove my innocence, and believe me I am innocent, but the honor council took the word of the professor and the other proctors to prove me guilty. I was given an F for the course and I retook it the next semester and got an A (which to me only proves my point further that I am innocent). On the transcript, there is no way to find out if this was due to academic dishonesty, as there is no mark next to the F to indicate an act of academic dishonesty.

Obviously this looks bad since its a physiology class, a core class for medical school. I am in a masters program right now at the same university, so hoping to do well in that program to prove my credibility. My question to you guys should I still disclose this to the adcoms when I apply? I have been in a dilemma since no matter what I say to the adcoms, they still won't believe my story, and will think I cheated. Please guys any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cardingel]

To make matters even worse, my permanent resident application is pending, so I know most MD schools are out of the picture anyway. The only real shot i have is DO schools, and there is not that many in the country that I can afford (I can't get student loans because I am not a citizen). So yeah I know I am really screwed.

So just do DO. You will be a doctor either way

 

[flatbear]

I know there have been a lot of threads on SDN about Academic dishonesty, but I think that my case is a little different so i want some input.

I was accused of cheating on physiology exam during my senior year. I fought hard to prove my innocence, and believe me I am innocent, but the honor council took the word of the professor and the other proctors to prove me guilty. I was given an F for the course and I retook it the next semester and got an A (which to me only proves my point further that I am innocent). On the transcript, there is no way to find out if this was due to academic dishonesty, as there is no mark next to the F to indicate an act of academic dishonesty.

Obviously this looks bad since its a physiology class, a core class for medical school. I am in a masters program right now at the same university, so hoping to do well in that program to prove my credibility. My question to you guys should I still disclose this to the adcoms when I apply? I have been in a dilemma since no matter what I say to the adcoms, they still won't believe my story, and will think I cheated. Please guys any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

you should have taken legal action if you felt that their proceedings were unfair

 

[fazd5]

You're stuck in between a rock and a hard place, I'm afraid.

First off, if an Adcom knows about this IA, your medical career is over, for at least a good 5-10 years.

But the problem you're facing is the risk of what happens if you don't mention the IA.

A single F in a sea of good grades will probably elicit questions from interviews ("so what's up with that F in Physiology, Faz?") What are you going to do? Lie??

Admissions deans check up on candidates or acceptees. IF you are accepted, and it's discovered that you lied about this, your acceptance can be rescinded. You could be expelled if it's discovered after you matriculate. Can you take the chance that a LOR writer will mention this ("Faz has improved wonderfully as a student and person since his conviction of the dishonesty charge years ago; you wouldn't believe he's the same person...")

I agree with you, but I am really hoping that they don't find out about this if they do check, since they gave me the opportunity to remove the asterisk from my transcript, which gives me the slightest of hope that other schools won't find out about my IA. As far as the LOR, I haven't mentioned this to any of those people about my IA since they will be my mentors for the master's program. I really don't know if mentioning this would strain the relationships I have built with those people and may hinder them from writing a good LOR.

 

[deleted407021]

So just do DO. You will be a doctor either way

I mean, it's not as if Osteoptahic schools won't see the red flag, as well

@fazd5 , do you mean you can't afford DO schools in terms of applying or in terms of tuition? B/c a doc should be able to manage med school debt from any program.

 

[fazd5]

So just do DO. You will be a doctor either way

I don't have a problem with DO schools. I would take that opportunity with both hands. I just can't afford most of them since their tuitions are mostly high and I have no way of getting loans. And the IA that I may have on my record makes it extremely hard.

 

[fazd5]

I mean, it's not as if Osteoptahic schools won't see the red flag, as well

@fazd5 , do you mean you can't afford DO schools in terms of applying or in terms of tuition? B/c a doc should be able to manage med school debt from any program.

In terms of tuition. Since I am not a permanent resident, some DO schools I have looked at want to see some sort of financial statements that show you have the money to pay for the four years. I clearly don't have 300K in my bank account.

 

[deleted407021]

In terms of tuition. Since I am not a permanent resident, some DO schools I have looked at want to see some sort of financial statements that show you have the money to pay for the four years. I clearly don't have 300K in my bank account.

I've never heard of this. It sounds odd, because how could they ever expect you to have the money for your entire education, up front?

 

[fazd5]

you should have taken legal action if you felt that their proceedings were unfair

I really thought about doing that, but I don't know how lawyers would go about it, since whatever proof they have is against me, and clearly no one is taking my word for it. I event talked to the vice provost of the university, the one who overseas the honor council, and she wasn't very helpful either.

 

[fazd5]

I've never heard of this. It sounds odd, because how could they ever expect you to have the money for your entire education, up front?

Yeah it is odd, but they consider me as an international student, which to them creates a doubt whether this student will stay for the entire 4 years and be able to pay our fees. They rather pick someone who's a citizen, because they know they can get loans and will stay for the entire duration of the program.

 

[Gibbward]

Yeah it is odd, but they consider me as an international student, which to them creates a doubt whether this student will stay for the entire 4 years and be able to pay our fees. They rather pick someone who's a citizen, because they know they can get loans and will stay for the entire duration of the program.

Why not wait until you get your green card until you apply? Do you know how much longer of a process it'll be? Also, are you doing an adjustment of status or are you petitioned by family? I was in this exact same situation, was waiting for the green card for 6 years (4 years UG, and 2 years during my Masters), and received my green card just last month! You might want to just wait it out and that'll give you more options in terms of where you can apply.

 

[fazd5]

Why not wait until you get your green card until you apply? Do you know how much longer of a process it'll be? Also, are you doing an adjustment of status or are you petitioned by family? I was in this exact same situation, was waiting for the green card for 6 years (4 years UG, and 2 years during my Masters), and received my green card just last month! You might want to just wait it out and that'll give you more options in terms of where you can apply.

I would wait, but there is no definitive answer to how long it will take. The AOS is done thru my dad, who got sponsored H1B. As of now I am 4 years behind the priority date, but I have seen that for the past couple of years, so there is not much movement within USCIS. I feel that by the time I get my green card, I may have lost the desire and motivation to become a physician, given all the **** that is happened to me.

 

[cloudmurder1]

Lesson to all: when taking tests, don't even make it look like your cheating. Refusing to cheat in your mind is not enough.

 

[Goro]

Medical schools (MD and DO) often do this for non-citizens, because they want to know that the candidates can pay for med school since they can't get loans. So yes, they do expect the money to be there, but just do not demand that it be paid all at once.

I've never heard of this. It sounds odd, because how could they ever expect you to have the money for your entire education, up front?

 

[aalamruad]

you should have taken legal action if you felt that their proceedings were unfair

Yup. Doesn't really matter whether or not you were innocent, if you were convicted. Should have fought it harder. And just fyi, a lot of schools have policies against "looking around" during tests, even if you're not really cheating. You can't expect them to give you the benefit of the doubt. And in the future, seek testing accommodations if your anxiety prevents you from focusing on your own test and looking around the room.

 

[piii]

If i say the truth what happened, adcoms won't believe my story. If they somehow buy my lie, I have a chance of getting in to medical school. Like I said, I didn't cheat on that test, it was just my **** luck that I m in this situation for something I didn't do.

It's not even bad luck. You clearly lacked the proper judgement needed to not make suspicious behaviors during an exam. And now you're going to lie.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Bro, my suggestion is to just move on. Do you want to waste all the money applying to find out no one wants you if you decide to tell the truth? Do you want to experience the emotional roller coaster of getting accepted and then get your acceptance rescinded because they find out about your lies? Or do you really want to live through your medical career with the constant fear that they'll find out about how you lie and then take away your degree along with giving you a 300k debt? My answer to all of this is hell no. It is tragic but I strongly urge you to give up this career and find other options. Best of luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Lying is always the best way forward, and the best way to enter an honorable profession.
Good luck.

I thought blackmail was the best way, followed by kidnapping and murder. Lying is more like fourth best. Although cheating is up there too.

It doesn't even matter if OP is guilty. If it comes out he cheated his career is over. If he lies about it and gets caught, his career is over. So lying isn't a good option (this shouldn't have to be said). All he can really do is (a) be silent about it, hope it never comes up, and run for luck, but I think it would come up, (b) wait a decade or so and then apply to med school using totally new LORs and hope it just looks like ancient F from when he was young and stupid, (c) go offshore to a place that doesn't care and hope that it never comes up again.

 

[efle]

Can admissions deans really just call up a university and get information on applicants not present in their transcript? Like if a student is accused but not convicted of cheating or assault or some such, an admissions dean might hear about it despite not being in the submitted paperwork?

 

[candbgirl]

...And the IA I have on my record makes it extremely hard.

So it is on your record?

 

[Satire5Texul]

If you are asked about an IA then go ahead and report it. If you are not asked directly for it, then I would not bring it up in your secondaries that ask for

Can admissions deans really just call up a university and get information on applicants not present in their transcript? Like if a student is accused but not convicted of cheating or assault or some such, an admissions dean might hear about it despite not being in the submitted paperwork?

I am going to go on a whim and say no. First of all who the hell out of the numerous people that have the input into the decision will actually do this ?
And for what applicant ? Random roll-call ? None. Too much time wasted. Background check everyone and the class is a go.
This is why the "be honest" thing is likely pushed hard, because no one actually tries to dig up dirt on a 4th year medical student in hopes of getting them kicked out.

I dont have attempted murder charges on me, nor do I have anything to hide, I am genuinely interested to know the truth about this because it comes up a lot on SDN.

Can someone out of curiosity, please provide examples of where an applicant was kicked out of medical school mid-way for something they did not disclose such as an IA, that the admissions found out about later ?

The only posts/circumstances of getting kicked out I have seen is the "I failed an exam". Just used the search function too.
And your home school/home medical school have channels of communication that are used outside of the scope of AAMCAS as one can imagine.

 

[Law2Doc]

Can admissions deans really just call up a university and get information on applicants ...

Of course they can. But is this something they do for every applicant? Of course not -- they'd have to get a whiff of something first.