Accepted to PsyD Programs... But Is It Worth It?

[Skvader]

I happened to read this thread last night:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=804394

And it's... discouraging. I've wanted to go into clinical psychology for many years. I told myself that a doctorate was my best bet because 1) there would be more job opportunities and 2) the salaries would be higher (especially in California, where there are sooo many marriage and family therapists). I saw MFT programs as backups, should I not get accepted into any decent PsyD programs.

Well, now I've been accepted into Pacific University and Spalding... but after reading the above thread, I find myself questioning my career path all over again. I absolutely hate this website sometimes, because just when I think I've got everything figured out... someone says something that causes me to doubt myself yet again.

So am I essentially wasting time and money by pursuing a doctorate degree vs. a masters degree in marriage and family therapy? Geez...

And to answer a few questions that I'm fairly sure will pop up...
1. I am interested in research, but not as the focus of my career. I want work with patients to be my main focus.
2. I love the CBT approach, so it's not like I JUST want to use psychotherapy when working with patients.
3. I want to work with adolescent, young adult, couples, and family populations.
4. I want to work with a variety of issues, but mood disorders and anxiety disorders are my passion.
5. I don't have any desire to become a professor/lecturer.
6. I would prefer to work in California, as that is where I have lived my entire life; however, I am willing to move out-of-state (Oregon or Kentucky) to pursue a PsyD degree. Therefore, I imagine I would also be willing to re-locate yet again, should the job market demand it.

Thank you in advance to everyone who takes the time to respond to this thread!
​

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[edieb]

I can only speak to my experiences, but I think you should completely re-think entering into psychology for any reason other than if you wish to conduct research. This is because 1 - There are just too many professions who perform psychotherapy, 2 - The relative total of dollars spent on psychotherapy has been on the decline for the past decade and the decline is continuing, 3 - Psychological testing is not valued in most settings anymore, 4 -Income in psychology, which was already relatively low, is continuing to drop precipitously. Add onto that the fact that Spalding University has a very poor reputation, and I think the decision should be clear cut

If I wanted to work in mental health, I would work in psychiatry. A lot of ppl think that psychiatrists are just pill pushers. However, I have a few friends who are psychiatrists (and one who is a prescribing PhD) who simply do medications for a limited amount of the day in order to generate revenue. Because they can generate so much revenue doing this, they can afford to spend the rest of their day taking a few select psychotherapy or testing cases and do a very good job with them.

 

[HVACPSM]

From what you are saying, a PsyD (or PhD) will not give you anything more than a MFT will. If all you want to do is do psychotherapy (and by the way, CBT is a form of psychotherapy) and have no interest in assessment or research, then why not do an MFT (or LCSW) program. They are much shorter programs and while they do require a lot of supervised training, it is not as structured as it is for psychologists, so you will have much more flexibility in being able to live where you want, rather than having to move for internship and post-doc. Although you might make a bit more money as a psychologist, the costs you will incur getting the degree will almost certainly outweigh the increase in income potential. Also, I have found that many MFTs are trained just as well in therapy - especially if you want to work with couples and families.

 

[O Gurl]

So am I essentially wasting time and money by pursuing a doctorate degree vs. a masters degree in marriage and family therapy? Geez...

And to answer a few questions that I'm fairly sure will pop up...
1. I am interested in research, but not as the focus of my career. I want work with patients to be my main focus.
2. I love the CBT approach, so it's not like I JUST want to use psychotherapy when working with patients.
3. I want to work with adolescent, young adult, couples, and family populations.
4. I want to work with a variety of issues, but mood disorders and anxiety disorders are my passion.
5. I don't have any desire to become a professor/lecturer.
6. I would prefer to work in California, as that is where I have lived my entire life; however, I am willing to move out-of-state (Oregon or Kentucky) to pursue a PsyD degree. Therefore, I imagine I would also be willing to re-locate yet again, should the job market demand it.​

Thank you in advance to everyone who takes the time to respond to this thread!​

Apologies in advance as I was probably one of the commenters in the other thread that caused the panic to begin with.

To be honest (and I am sure others will disagree) I do not see anything in what you've mentioned that would make a doctorate essential to your career goals. It doesn't seem that you are looking to specialize with a niche population, conduct comprehensive assessments, or spend a lot of time in academia. So given just the nuts and bolts of the job landscape for clinicians right now, particularly in well-saturated areas like CA, it may not be the best investment. Unless, of course, you got a solid PsyD program that won't sink you in massive debt. That said, your goals could change once you get exposure to these other areas.

 

[Skvader]

It certainly doesn't help that MFT programs are taking longer to get back to me... so I may be forced to make a decision in regards to the PsyD programs before I know whether or not I've been accepted into Cal State MFT programs. I hate the idea of going into a PsyD program and changing my mind a year later, and I also hate the idea of waiting another year to apply to MFT programs again (doing God-knows-what with a bachelors degree in psychology, in a county/state that has very few decent job opportunities for new graduates).

@HVACPSM: By "assessment", do you mean determining whether or not patients could qualify for diagnoses of mental disorders? Because I certainly am interested in that as well. I figured that marriage and family therapists are somewhat limited because they can't give diagnoses (with the exception of certain states). LCSW preparation does appeal to me, but I'm honestly not interested in the administrative aspects of social work. I don't want to get stuck doing paperwork all day, every day, when my real passion lies with therapy... hence my decision to apply to MFT programs.

 

[Student4Life0]

. I don't want to get stuck doing paperwork all day, every day, when my real passion lies with therapy... hence my decision to apply to MFT programs.

Don't want to do paperwork all day? Lol then perhaps clinical psychology is the wrong field for you...

Oh notes, notes, notes! Never ending notes..

 

[Skvader]

Don't want to do paperwork all day? Lol then perhaps clinical psychology is the wrong field for you...

Oh notes, notes, notes! Never ending notes..

I know paperwork is necessary. I guess I'm thinking about a social worker/co-worker I met through the VA Hospital. He spends about 98% of his time making phone calls to board and care facilities and patients, entering data, etc. Basically, what a research assistant would do. And if I wanted that, I'd just stick with the bachelors degree in psychology. I want to have time to see patients throughout the week, not just be stuck in an office all the time filling out paperwork. Again, I realize it's going to be necessary for patient records, billing, etc. but that's why I've shied away from social work. There are some schools that even offer programs geared directly toward administrative duties, and that is NOT what I want. I like interacting with people. If I can't do that on a regular basis - then you're right, I'm picking the wrong career, and I would love it if you could point me in the right direction.

 

[Student4Life0]

It sounds like you'll get the most bang for your buck with a MA in clinical psych, mental health counseling, or maybe mft. That's all that you need in order to practice psychotherapy. A doctoral degree will also prepare you for research, assessment, and possibly academia.

 

[docma]

You also should talk to more social workers. There is a vast array of things you can do with a social work degree (including psychotherapy if you build in an emphasis on that.) Schools like the Smith College School of Social Work are all about a psychodynamic approach, learning to do psychotherapy and social justice as well. (And with them, you could even do your clinical hours in California as they do full time academic year placements all over the country) And California has a shortage of social workers and an abundance/over-population of MFT and PsyD/Phds. And if you are competitive you can get a CalSWEC grant that pays you $18500 for your second year of your masters....NASW has been way out ahead of APA for years on advocacy for students.

 

[HVACPSM]

@HVACPSM: By "assessment", do you mean determining whether or not patients could qualify for diagnoses of mental disorders? Because I certainly am interested in that as well. I figured that marriage and family therapists are somewhat limited because they can't give diagnoses (with the exception of certain states). LCSW preparation does appeal to me, but I'm honestly not interested in the administrative aspects of social work. I don't want to get stuck doing paperwork all day, every day, when my real passion lies with therapy... hence my decision to apply to MFT programs.

No, by assessment I mean doing psych testing and writing testing reports. This is an area that is generally only within the scope of practice of Psychologists. MFTs and LCSWs are certainly able to do diagnosis and treatment in CA.

There are many different types of social workers. Most who work in the VA system do case management, but LCSWs can certainly do therapy and many have private practices. Social Work is a very broad field.

 

[O Gurl]

Wow. So I suppose all of those who accuse doctoral level clinicians (and trainees) of wanted to monopolize therapy can always refer back to this thread.

Anyhoot, back to the topic at hand. I agree with docma about the over-crowding of MFTs in CA as well. You may actually be more marketable with a clinical social work degree. Either option, still, will be a more direct, less time consuming, and less expensive alternative the PsyD.

 

[DrGero]

I agree that if all you want to do is therapy you should avoid a PhD or PsyD and strongly consider a masters degree. I don't agree that those pursuing a PhD or PsyD should only be doing it for the purposes of being full time researchers.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I happened to read this thread last night:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=804394​

And it's... discouraging. I've wanted to go into clinical psychology for many years. I told myself that a doctorate was my best bet because 1) there would be more job opportunities and 2) the salaries would be higher (especially in California, where there are sooo many marriage and family therapists). I saw MFT programs as backups, should I not get accepted into any decent PsyD programs.​

Well, now I've been accepted into Pacific University and Spalding... but after reading the above thread, I find myself questioning my career path all over again. I absolutely hate this website sometimes, because just when I think I've got everything figured out... someone says something that causes me to doubt myself yet again.​

So am I essentially wasting time and money by pursuing a doctorate degree vs. a masters degree in marriage and family therapy? Geez...​

And to answer a few questions that I'm fairly sure will pop up...
1. I am interested in research, but not as the focus of my career. I want work with patients to be my main focus.
2. I love the CBT approach, so it's not like I JUST want to use psychotherapy when working with patients.
3. I want to work with adolescent, young adult, couples, and family populations.
4. I want to work with a variety of issues, but mood disorders and anxiety disorders are my passion.
5. I don't have any desire to become a professor/lecturer.
6. I would prefer to work in California, as that is where I have lived my entire life; however, I am willing to move out-of-state (Oregon or Kentucky) to pursue a PsyD degree. Therefore, I imagine I would also be willing to re-locate yet again, should the job market demand it.​

Thank you in advance to everyone who takes the time to respond to this thread!​

Hi Skvader,

I wanted to give you a perspective from a current PsyD candidate so you have all perspectives to consider. You do not need a doctorate to practice psychotherapy. If psychotherapy is all you want to do, then a masters degree in counseling, clinical or counseling psychology, social work or marriage or family therapy will help you reach your goals. Master's level clinicians (at least in the area where I live in on the East coast) can give diagnoses becasue insurance billing requires it, so you can diagnose with an MA.MS, MFT, or MSW. I went into clinical psychology because I want to do assessment (e.g. assessment of cognitive functioning/IQ/Achievement, in-depth psychological evaluations) in addition to therapy. If you want to do any kind of psychological testing, a doctoral degree in clinical psychology (or counseling psychology in some states) is required. If I were to choose a mental health masters, I would choose an MSW because you also need to consider whether you want to practice independently. Social workers in my area on the east coast can practice independetly after adequate supervision (around 2 years). Counselors can only practice under supervision and never can practice independently. Social workers can practice independently and have third party (insurance) reimbursement privileges in 47 states and can do the same things therapy wise as a licensed psychologist. I have an MSW and this is why I chose an MSW as opposed to a degree in counseling or MFT because I have the option to practice as an independent practitioner. I hope this helps your decision. By the way, not all PsyD programs are diploma mills with poor training models. I attend a University-based PsyD program and it is not like those described by other members.

 

[Markro311]

How about any interests in moving up the administrative ladder during your career? Certainly people with other degrees can do this as well, but I believe a doctorate in clinical psych will be the surest bet to moving up administratively in the mental health world (compared to MSW, MFT, etc.). There's more to this degree than just psychotherapy, assessment, research, and academia. But administrative duties are often overlooked.

 

[busybusybusy]

How about any interests in moving up the administrative ladder during your career? Certainly people with other degrees can do this as well, but I believe a doctorate in clinical psych will be the surest bet to moving up administratively in the mental health world (compared to MSW, MFT, etc.). There's more to this degree than just psychotherapy, assessment, research, and academia. But administrative duties are often overlooked.

Great point and something that I hadn't even thought about. Although I work with many LCSWs who provide clinical treatment, those that are spearheading programs and creating curricula are all psychologists.

 

[O Gurl]

I agree that if all you want to do is therapy you should avoid a PhD or PsyD and strongly consider a masters degree. I don't agree that those pursuing a PhD or PsyD should only be doing it for the purposes of being full time researchers.

No one said that.

It has been stated many times that PhD/PsyD can prepare someone for testing/assessment, research, program development, teaching, administration. If someone wants to provide therapy only, then it is not worth it.

 

[DrGero]

No one said that.

Well.... someone did say something like that:

I think you should completely re-think entering into psychology for any reason other than if you wish to conduct research.

It has been stated many times that PhD/PsyD can prepare someone for testing/assessment, research, program development, teaching, administration. If someone wants to provide therapy only, then it is not worth it.

Right. Agreed.

 

[O Gurl]

Not sure how I missed that one. I stand corrected and also completely disagree with edieb's comment.

 

[EJG941SRQ]

If I were to choose a mental health masters, I would choose an MSW because you also need to consider whether you want to practice independently. Social workers in my area on the east coast can practice independetly after adequate supervision (around 2 years). Counselors can only practice under supervision and never can practice independently. Social workers can practice independently and have third party (insurance) reimbursement privileges in 47 states and can do the same things therapy wise as a licensed psychologist. I have an MSW and this is why I chose an MSW as opposed to a degree in counseling or MFT because I have the option to practice as an independent practitioner.

This is very interesting. I did not know this. Can anyone tell me any insight as to how PsyD application committees tend to look upon applicants who are applying with a MSW? Favorably vs unfavorably?

 

[kea2115]

Counselors can only practice under supervision and never can practice independently.

Not true, actually. I graduated in May with my masters in counseling (mental health specialization), and I am completely license elligbile in many, many states, if not all. I graduated from school in NY, so my program was geared towards licensure there. You have to get a preliminary license akin to an LMSW, and after accruing 3000 hours under supervision, you can sit for licensure to become a LMHC (licensed mental health counselor). Actually, I advise this degree over social work for those who strictly wish to do therapy because it is much more oriented towards the counseling process, teaches assessment, and spends less time looking at the policy-type stuff associated with social work. I think you may be thinking of a masters in clinical psych, which is almost useless, unless you want to be a research assistant for the rest of your life.

To the original poster, a lot of members offered some wonderful advice and insight. I would advice doing some more research before making a definitive decision because it seems that you are a little hazy as to the roles and responsibilities of different mental health professionals. But, like everyone else did say, I would say a masters program seems best for what it is that you say you're looking for. Especially since they are often more marketable in the psychotherapy world than doctorates because they cost the employers less money.

 

[berlin81]

Not true, actually. I graduated in May with my masters in counseling (mental health specialization), and I am completely license elligbile in many, many states, if not all. I graduated from school in NY, so my program was geared towards licensure there. You have to get a preliminary license akin to an LMSW, and after accruing 3000 hours under supervision, you can sit for licensure to become a LMHC (licensed mental health counselor). Actually, I advise this degree over social work for those who strictly wish to do therapy because it is much more oriented towards the counseling process, teaches assessment, and spends less time looking at the policy-type stuff associated with social work. I think you may be thinking of a masters in clinical psych, which is almost useless, unless you want to be a research assistant for the rest of your life.

I agree in regards to a counseling degree. Like most SW's, counselors seem have more flexibility in terms of moving around of the country and being able to obtain licensure in other states. And although an MA in clinical psych has its limits in some states, it can be useful in others. As I have stated in previous threads, there are several states that license master's level psychologists and are able to do much of what doctoral-level psychologists do. Yes, we can all debate on whether or not master's psychologists should be doing what PsyD/PhD psychologists do, but the fact is that some states will license you if you meet their educational and post-master requirements. I just don't want others thinking literally that master's psychologists only get jobs as research assistants. That is not true.

 

[cheeze]

I know an MFT who does the hiring for MFTs in UCSF. He basically told me to not go for a PsyD (not that my intention was to ever get a PsyD). His reasoning was his jobs for MFTs are getting PsyD applicants but he'll always pick the MFT because the MFT fulfills his needs and the PsyD is over qualified/cost too much.

So if your happy doing what an MFT can do, then a PsyD can actually harm you.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

This is very interesting. I did not know this. Can anyone tell me any insight as to how PsyD application committees tend to look upon applicants who are applying with a MSW? Favorably vs unfavorably?

It depends.l When I applied to PsyD programs with an MSW, I got mostly positive feedback. I asked several professors about how an MSW looks to a PsyD program and all agreed that it helps an applicant, as opposed to hurting an applicant. One professor at my undergrad university (which is a big research 1 school) has an MSW. However, there are always one or two people who don't look at an MSW favorably. One interviewer at one PsyD program could not get past the MSW. Her response was "what did you get an MBA for" when I corrected her on my masters she responded "what did you do that for?" She was not able to get past the MSW even thought the program highly valued diversity in training and student body. Needless to say I did not accept an offer from this program when I was off the wait list. My current program director calls my degree choices a "perfect marriage." The hardest part of interviewing with an MSW (as opposed to an MA in psyc) was justifying the MSW. Clinical psychology was always my goal; however my GRE scores kept me from even getting into a master's program. So, another psychologist who was formerly an LICSW (licensed clinical social worker) advised me to get an MSW because in my area in the Southeast/mid Atlantic recognized LICSWs as independent practitioners and I could provide psychotherapy with similar freedom to licensed psychologists. Since clinical psychology is so competitive, I chose an MSW just in case I got rejected again. I got an MSW because I was rejected from PhD, PsyD, and MA programs in clinical psyc (with the exception of a free standing school which I turned down) and I had no plan. No job lined up, nothing. It was April 15 and the application deadline for the MSW program at my undergrad university was May 1. I applied and got in. I finished the degree because I finish what I start. I took my GREs five more times and got into a PsyD program last year. The MSW program has useless courses, but my practicum was the best I could have asked for. I did psychotherapy in a substance abuse program within a medical school. I got training in family therapy and substance abuse that my current doc program does not offer. Everyone has been supportive of my degree. The only trouble I had was that one interviewer who could not get past the MSW. Now, my concern is how internship directors will view an MSW. I hope that the MSW will help me.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I was not insinuating that all counselors cannot practice independently. I was referring to my area in the mid atlantic/southeast. We do not have an LMHC license, so MA counselors cannot practice independently as an LPC in my state. I did not mean that this was true for all states. In my area, LICSWs are the independent masters level practitioners. This may be different than others. My point was that those who want to practice psychotherapy with a masters should look at the licensure levels in their state so that they find a program that meets those requirements. For my state, LICSWs are the only therapist who can practice independently as a psychotherapist other than a licensed psychologist. This is in my state, not everywhere.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

Not true, actually. I graduated in May with my masters in counseling (mental health specialization), and I am completely license elligbile in many, many states, if not all. I graduated from school in NY, so my program was geared towards licensure there. You have to get a preliminary license akin to an LMSW, and after accruing 3000 hours under supervision, you can sit for licensure to become a LMHC (licensed mental health counselor). Actually, I advise this degree over social work for those who strictly wish to do therapy because it is much more oriented towards the counseling process, teaches assessment, and spends less time looking at the policy-type stuff associated with social work. I think you may be thinking of a masters in clinical psych, which is almost useless, unless you want to be a research assistant for the rest of your life.

To the original poster, a lot of members offered some wonderful advice and insight. I would advice doing some more research before making a definitive decision because it seems that you are a little hazy as to the roles and responsibilities of different mental health professionals. But, like everyone else did say, I would say a masters program seems best for what it is that you say you're looking for. Especially since they are often more marketable in the psychotherapy world than doctorates because they cost the employers less money.

You did not read my whole post. I was not insinuating that all counselors cannot practice independently. I was referring to my area in the mid atlantic/southeast. We do not have an LMHC license, so MA counselors cannot practice independently as an LPC in my state. I did not mean that this was true for all states. I specifically stated that in my original post. In my area, LICSWs are the independent masters level practitioners. This may be different than others. My point was that those who want to practice psychotherapy with a masters should look at the licensure levels in their state so that they find a program that meets those requirements. For my state, LICSWs are the only therapist who can practice independently as a psychotherapist other than a licensed psychologist. This is in my state, not everywhere.

Also, a masters in clinical psychology is not only for researchers. There is a doc program model in clinical psych that trains practitioners (PsyD). An MS or MA in clinical psyc will prepare graduates for further training in a clinically oriented clinical psyc doc program. You're right about the social policy and other crap in social work programs but there are some good clinical social work programs out there that have psychotherapy oriented courses. To be honest, I think counseling is not any better for preparing therapists than psychology. In my oppinion, psychology better prepares therapists.

 

[2012PhD]

I happened to read this thread last night:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=804394

And it's... discouraging. I've wanted to go into clinical psychology for many years. I told myself that a doctorate was my best bet because 1) there would be more job opportunities and 2) the salaries would be higher (especially in California, where there are sooo many marriage and family therapists). I saw MFT programs as backups, should I not get accepted into any decent PsyD programs.

Well, now I've been accepted into Pacific University and Spalding... but after reading the above thread, I find myself questioning my career path all over again. I absolutely hate this website sometimes, because just when I think I've got everything figured out... someone says something that causes me to doubt myself yet again.

So am I essentially wasting time and money by pursuing a doctorate degree vs. a masters degree in marriage and family therapy? Geez...

​

Even though this is discouraging to hear now, isn't it better to know this now before investing 6 years of your life? How do you plan on paying back 200K on a psychotherapy salary? You don't want to bust your ass getting a PsyD, getting into 200K Debt, and land a therapy job for 40K. I have met people in this boat and you don't want to be there. If you want to only do psychotherapy (without the research and assessment), the salary is generally pretty low and california is oversaturated. You will lose 6 years of income and then have morgage size loans at any of these school. MFT is only 2 years so its more reasonable.

 

[2012PhD]

I happened to read this thread last night:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=804394

And it's... discouraging. I've wanted to go into clinical psychology for many years. I told myself that a doctorate was my best bet because 1) there would be more job opportunities and 2) the salaries would be higher (especially in California, where there are sooo many marriage and family therapists). I saw MFT programs as backups, should I not get accepted into any decent PsyD programs.

​

Your reasons for wanting the PsyD are not good reasons to enter a doctoral program. PsyD's do not have more psychotherapy job opportunities compared to MFT's. The salaries for those doing psychotherapy are not higher if you consider the 200K debt level of a psyd and the fact that you are in school for 6 years vs. 2 years.

Also, consider that you will have to write a dissertation and do a good number of assessment batteries in a PsyD program. To land an apa internship, you'll need a good number of assessments and good training in assessment. If your true passion is psychotherapy, you will be spending a fair amount of time on these other requirements and may dislike the program.

 

[2012PhD]

No job lined up, nothing. It was April 15 and the application deadline for the MSW program at my undergrad university was May 1. I applied and got in. I finished the degree because I finish what I start. I took my GREs five more times and got into a PsyD program last year. The MSW program has useless courses, but my practicum was the best I could have asked for. I did psychotherapy in a substance abuse program within a medical school. I got training in family therapy and substance abuse that my current doc program does not offer. Everyone has been supportive of my degree. The only trouble I had was that one interviewer who could not get past the MSW. Now, my concern is how internship directors will view an MSW. I hope that the MSW will help me.

Let me get this straight...you finished an MSW program then you took the GRE 5 more times just to get into a PsyD program???? What is the rationale for doing a PsyD after an MSW. You can just get post-grad therapy training for way cheaper at institutes while still earning an income. Did you want to get teh assessment training? I don't get this route at all unless one is independently wealthy.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

Let me get this straight...you finished an MSW program then you took the GRE 5 more times just to get into a PsyD program???? What is the rationale for doing a PsyD after an MSW. You can just get post-grad therapy training for way cheaper at institutes while still earning an income. Did you want to get teh assessment training? I don't get this route at all unless one is independently wealthy.

I went back to psychology because I want to do testing in addition to therapy. Clinical psychology was my goal in the first place. I didn't really want the MSW. I always wanted to be a clinical psychologist. Clinical psychology is competitive and I finished the MSW (instead of applying to PhDs and PsyDs again) because I knew with an LICSW I could do therapy independently in most places in case I never got into clinical psychology. I am in a university based PsyD program and I receive a tuition waver and a small stipend, so my loans are not going to be 200,000+. I admit I took the detour route instead of the interstate to clinical psychology, but I am determined to become a clinical psychologist because I want to do testing and therapy. I am not independently wealthy by any means.

 

[CitoPsych]

It depends.l When I applied to PsyD programs with an MSW, I got mostly positive feedback. I asked several professors about how an MSW looks to a PsyD program and all agreed that it helps an applicant, as opposed to hurting an applicant. One professor at my undergrad university (which is a big research 1 school) has an MSW. However, there are always one or two people who don't look at an MSW favorably. One interviewer at one PsyD program could not get past the MSW. Her response was "what did you get an MBA for" when I corrected her on my masters she responded "what did you do that for?" She was not able to get past the MSW even thought the program highly valued diversity in training and student body. Needless to say I did not accept an offer from this program when I was off the wait list. My current program director calls my degree choices a "perfect marriage." The hardest part of interviewing with an MSW (as opposed to an MA in psyc) was justifying the MSW. Clinical psychology was always my goal; however my GRE scores kept me from even getting into a master's program. So, another psychologist who was formerly an LICSW (licensed clinical social worker) advised me to get an MSW because in my area in the Southeast/mid Atlantic recognized LICSWs as independent practitioners and I could provide psychotherapy with similar freedom to licensed psychologists. Since clinical psychology is so competitive, I chose an MSW just in case I got rejected again. I got an MSW because I was rejected from PhD, PsyD, and MA programs in clinical psyc (with the exception of a free standing school which I turned down) and I had no plan. No job lined up, nothing. It was April 15 and the application deadline for the MSW program at my undergrad university was May 1. I applied and got in. I finished the degree because I finish what I start. I took my GREs five more times and got into a PsyD program last year. The MSW program has useless courses, but my practicum was the best I could have asked for. I did psychotherapy in a substance abuse program within a medical school. I got training in family therapy and substance abuse that my current doc program does not offer. Everyone has been supportive of my degree. The only trouble I had was that one interviewer who could not get past the MSW. Now, my concern is how internship directors will view an MSW. I hope that the MSW will help me.

Bless your heart. This statement gives me hope for the future when I decide to look at PhD programs, since my GRE scores have never been so hot. Keep on keeping on!

Edit: Oh and I wanted to add, in my state (FL), those who pursue a MA in Clinical Psych are elgible for the same lincensure that a LMHC obtains.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

Bless your heart. This statement gives me hope for the future when I decide to look at PhD programs, since my GRE scores have never been so hot. Keep on keeping on!

Edit: Oh and I wanted to add, in my state (FL), those who pursue a MA in Clinical Psych are elgible for the same lincensure that a LMHC obtains.

Glad to give hope in such a competitve field. Don't give up

 

[2012PhD]

I went back to psychology because I want to do testing in addition to therapy. Clinical psychology was my goal in the first place. I didn't really want the MSW. I always wanted to be a clinical psychologist. Clinical psychology is competitive and I finished the MSW (instead of applying to PhDs and PsyDs again) because I knew with an LICSW I could do therapy independently in most places in case I never got into clinical psychology. I am in a university based PsyD program and I receive a tuition waver and a small stipend, so my loans are not going to be 200,000+. I admit I took the detour route instead of the interstate to clinical psychology, but I am determined to become a clinical psychologist because I want to do testing and therapy. I am not independently wealthy by any means.

I think its great that you got into a PsyD program with a tuition waver and stipend. That is really the way to go! Personally, i think its a bad choice with the 200,000 in loans or if one ONLY wants to do therapy afterwards. The income doesn't justify morgage type debt from an unfunded PsyD.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I think its great that you got into a PsyD program with a tuition waver and stipend. That is really the way to go! Personally, i think its a bad choice with the 200,000 in loans or if one ONLY wants to do therapy afterwards. The income doesn't justify morgage type debt from an unfunded PsyD.

I agree. There are not many PsyD programs with a tuition waver and stipend.

 

[wigflip]

There are PsyD programs with tuition waivers and stipends? Anyone know if Pepperdine is one of them?

 

[2012PhD]

There are PsyD programs with tuition waivers and stipends? Anyone know if Pepperdine is one of them?

I know rutgers and baylor have some tuition remission and stipend. Baylor has full tuition remission and a stipend for 4 years i believe. Rutgers doesn't fully fund for all years, but is a state university. This is the only logical way to go if you are doing the PsyD, unless you have 200K to spare. Plus, these schools have excellent reputations and outcomes.

pepperdine is a good PsyD program, but doesn't have funding aside from loans. I know some people who went there. Plus, you need a master's before getting into pepperdine. Its going to be pretty expensive.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

There are PsyD programs with tuition waivers and stipends? Anyone know if Pepperdine is one of them?

The only ones I know of are:

Marshall University (my school, but this may change fon incoming students depending on our recent funding cuts)

Indiana University of PA

Baylor

Rutgers

James Madison (MA required and will go to a PhD in 2012)

Xavier (wavers and stipends to select sudents and the max you can get is a 2/3 waver, which is small comapred to the 20,000+ a year tuition)

VA consortium/Old Dominion University (will go PhD in 2012)

Indiana State

Wright State (funding for first year only, but cheap tuition for Ohio residents)

I applied to these schools about three years ago, so check their websites to see if there are any changes. I am not sure about Pepperdine

 

[wigflip]

Thanks, PsyDLICSW and 2012PhD! That was my hunch too--they don't charge that much per unit only to give a lucky few a break. Lemme tell ya, it's a drag to have geographic limitations.

 

[MWMFT]

Hi,
this discussion comes up SO often and it is very confusing bc several states have different criteria for MFT vs PsyD. I am a LMFT in CA -I am not certain what state you are considering your MFT, A little background: I have private practice (yes diagnose, treat ect , I am trained in CBT, DBT, BCT, EMDR, PET..and many more..certifeid in several tests) and work for a hospital (the largest in the country) as a pyshciatric clinician- my role at the hospital is LMFT, psychologist and 1 LCSW- we are all interchageable- we ALL diagnose, do medicial decisional capacity, do testing (whoever said LMFT can't do testing is inaccurate- yes some testing is restricted but when I've contacted the BBS the scope indicates that I can do any testing as long as I am trained, certified and it is applicable to my work with patients) 5150, and consult with the medical team for medication consults etc. I received my degree and license prior to psyD programs being mainsteam...and most clinicians who did not want to publish, do research etc opted for the MFT track, THEN psyD became the option for clinicians who wanted to focus on psychotherapy (some assesment) diagnosis etc. I wanted to go back to obtain my psyD and submitted my transcripts and obtained the program from several programs and they found that my 85 units of graduate work (current MFT can be as little as 60 units) are NEARLY identical to the psyD track (which is 90 units in many program) the difference 1 advanced testing class (1!!)and "field internship"of 4-5 classes (in the 120 unit programs) (which I was required to do as well-but more recent MFT do not require) A 100 page disertation, instead of my 70 page Thesis..3000 our intership for both license. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating that these earlier MFT programs are nearly identical to the current PsyD degrees...I truly WISH they would change the national standard and mandate only 1 clinical degree for clinicians wanting to focus on all these items listed above, but not pusblishing or research (phD)...I hope they figure this out ASAP and perhaps delete the MFT programs and keep just the psyD..it makes no sense to lower the standards of the current MFT programs to differentiate between the MFT and pysD...what about the tens of thousands of us who have nearly the identical training of the current psyD programs..confusing to EVERYONE...and those of us who want advanced degrees ...we are out of luck bc the psyD doesn't give us any additional education- esp if we've taken that 1 advanced testing class, and obtained certification is various modalities/testing.. my opinon- have the MFT's with those "older standards" take any classes/standards that are missing from the current psyD track..convert their license and mandate a totally different scope for current programs between MFT and psyD if they want to keep the 2.however my opinion stands that MFT's and psyD's in CA should just not exsist....it causes the most confusion...I am always frustrated...

 

[erg923]

Hi,
this discussion comes up SO often and it is very confusing bc several states have different criteria for MFT vs PsyD. I am a LMFT in CA -I am not certain what state you are considering your MFT, A little background: I have private practice (yes diagnose, treat ect , I am trained in CBT, DBT, BCT, EMDR, PET..and many more..certifeid in several tests) and work for a hospital (the largest in the country) as a pyshciatric clinician- my role at the hospital is LMFT, psychologist and 1 LCSW- we are all interchageable- we ALL diagnose, do medicial decisional capacity, do testing (whoever said LMFT can't do testing is inaccurate- yes some testing is restricted but when I've contacted the BBS the scope indicates that I can do any testing as long as I am trained, certified and it is applicable to my work with patients) 5150, and consult with the medical team for medication consults etc. I received my degree and license prior to psyD programs being mainsteam...and most clinicians who did not want to publish, do research etc opted for the MFT track, THEN psyD became the option for clinicians who wanted to focus on psychotherapy (some assesment) diagnosis etc. I wanted to go back to obtain my psyD and submitted my transcripts and obtained the program from several programs and they found that my 85 units of graduate work (current MFT can be as little as 60 units) are NEARLY identical to the psyD track (which is 90 units in many program) the difference 1 advanced testing class (1!!)and "field internship"of 4-5 classes (in the 120 unit programs) (which I was required to do as well-but more recent MFT do not require) A 100 page disertation, instead of my 70 page Thesis..3000 our intership for both license. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating that these earlier MFT programs are nearly identical to the current PsyD degrees...I truly WISH they would change the national standard and mandate only 1 clinical degree for clinicians wanting to focus on all these items listed above, but not pusblishing or research (phD)...I hope they figure this out ASAP and perhaps delete the MFT programs and keep just the psyD..it makes no sense to lower the standards of the current MFT programs to differentiate between the MFT and pysD...what about the tens of thousands of us who have nearly the identical training of the current psyD programs..confusing to EVERYONE...and those of us who want advanced degrees ...we are out of luck bc the psyD doesn't give us any additional education- esp if we've taken that 1 advanced testing class, and obtained certification is various modalities/testing.. my opinon- have the MFT's with those "older standards" take any classes/standards that are missing from the current psyD track..convert their license and mandate a totally different scope for current programs between MFT and psyD if they want to keep the 2.however my opinion stands that MFT's and psyD's in CA should just not exsist....it causes the most confusion...I am always frustrated...

For goodness sake son, use paragraphs!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Hi,
this discussion comes up SO often and it is very confusing bc several states have different criteria for MFT vs PsyD. I am a LMFT in CA -I am not certain what state you are considering your MFT, A little background: I have private practice (yes diagnose, treat ect , I am trained in CBT, DBT, BCT, EMDR, PET..and many more..certifeid in several tests) and work for a hospital (the largest in the country) as a pyshciatric clinician- my role at the hospital is LMFT, psychologist and 1 LCSW- we are all interchageable- we ALL diagnose, do medicial decisional capacity, do testing (whoever said LMFT can't do testing is inaccurate- yes some testing is restricted but when I've contacted the BBS the scope indicates that I can do any testing as long as I am trained, certified and it is applicable to my work with patients) 5150, and consult with the medical team for medication consults etc. I received my degree and license prior to psyD programs being mainsteam...and most clinicians who did not want to publish, do research etc opted for the MFT track, THEN psyD became the option for clinicians who wanted to focus on psychotherapy (some assesment) diagnosis etc. I wanted to go back to obtain my psyD and submitted my transcripts and obtained the program from several programs and they found that my 85 units of graduate work (current MFT can be as little as 60 units) are NEARLY identical to the psyD track (which is 90 units in many program) the difference 1 advanced testing class (1!!)and "field internship"of 4-5 classes (in the 120 unit programs) (which I was required to do as well-but more recent MFT do not require) A 100 page disertation, instead of my 70 page Thesis..3000 our intership for both license. It's INCREDIBLY frustrating that these earlier MFT programs are nearly identical to the current PsyD degrees...I truly WISH they would change the national standard and mandate only 1 clinical degree for clinicians wanting to focus on all these items listed above, but not pusblishing or research (phD)...I hope they figure this out ASAP and perhaps delete the MFT programs and keep just the psyD..it makes no sense to lower the standards of the current MFT programs to differentiate between the MFT and pysD...what about the tens of thousands of us who have nearly the identical training of the current psyD programs..confusing to EVERYONE...and those of us who want advanced degrees ...we are out of luck bc the psyD doesn't give us any additional education- esp if we've taken that 1 advanced testing class, and obtained certification is various modalities/testing.. my opinon- have the MFT's with those "older standards" take any classes/standards that are missing from the current psyD track..convert their license and mandate a totally different scope for current programs between MFT and psyD if they want to keep the 2.however my opinion stands that MFT's and psyD's in CA should just not exsist....it causes the most confusion...I am always frustrated...

It sounds like you are comparing your training at the highest tier of MFT to the lowest tier of psychologists. If you had become a psychologist then maybe you would have learned more about comparing group differences and overlapping distributions. Isn't it possible that some people opt for the lower degree because they don't have the ability to make into a highly competitive field? Not everyone can or should be a doctor. Although in California they are making it way too easy to become a psychologist and that might cause problems for everyone down the road.

 

[deleted343839]

I have private practice (yes diagnose, treat ect , I am trained in CBT, DBT, BCT, EMDR, PET..and many more..certifeid in several tests) and work for a hospital (the largest in the country) as a pyshciatric clinician- my role at the hospital is LMFT, psychologist and 1 LCSW- we are all interchageable- we ALL diagnose, do medicial decisional capacity, do testing

It sounds like the administration at your facility is clueless.

 

[erg923]

It sounds like the administration at your facility is clueless.

This is clearly not appopriate utilization of resources and talent, but is also not uncommon in many clinical settings.

 

[deleted343839]

This is clearly not appopriate utilization of resources and talent, but is also not uncommon in many clinical settings.

Rest assured, you'll never catch me expecting a clinical administrator to devise a coherent behavioral healthcare strategy.

 

[WisNeuro]

Wait, is that a claim of being trained in PET imaging? Also, that degree cannot do a good deal of testing/assessment. Many people cannot even legally buy some of the tests unless they meet certain qualifications. Some are limited to doctorates in psychology, or specialized instruction in the area that constitutes more than an online course or weekend workshop. Although, CA is the wild west of healthcare in terms of letting anyone do whatever they want as long as they sent in the requisite number of cereal box tops, so maybe it's true.

 

[deleted343839]

Wait, is that a claim of being trained in PET imaging?

Ha, I thought the same thing until I considered the alternative that PET could stand for Prolonged Exposure Therapy. Who knows, though. In any case, that's a heck of a lot of different therapy approaches to have mastered!

 

[WisNeuro]

Maybe, but I've never seen it referred to in that way. And I've published in the area and was trained by one of Foa's protegees. Also, I'm wary of people "trained" in EMDR.

 

[deleted343839]

Maybe, but I've never seen it referred to in that way. And I've published in the area and was trained by one of Foa's protegees. Also, I'm wary of people "trained" in EMDR.

Of course. I expect to see the acronym PE, not PET. But the person who posted using the acronym PET is clearly neither a psychologist nor an academic grandchild of Edna Foa, so maybe they're not too familiar with the lingo... just a hunch.

PE also stands for premature ejaculation, but seeing as "premature ejaculation therapy" isn't a thing I'm sticking with my first hypothesis.

 

[WisNeuro]

Physical Education Therapy? Project Engineer Therapy? Program Evaluation Therapy? Pulmonary Edema Therapy?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm still wondering what BCT stands for. When I googled it I came up with some interesting acronyms one of them was breast conserving therapy and a few from the military were too inappropriate to post. The alphabet soup thing is not a good sign and I agree with Wisneuro and view EMDR training as a red flag. Perhaps more important though, is what is the motivation behind this type of posting resurrecting a 4 year old thread and it being this person's one and only post? Very odd.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'm still wondering what BCT stands for. When I googled it I came up with some interesting acronyms one of them was breast conserving therapy and a few from the military were too inappropriate to post. The alphabet soup thing is not a good sign and I agree with Wisneuro and view EMDR training as a red flag. Perhaps more important though, is what is the motivation behind this type of posting resurrecting a 4 year old thread and it being this person's one and only post? Very odd.

Typo for CBT?