Advanced dental hygiene practitioner

[Taurus]

By the way, different story but I had a chance to speak with an OD that runs an eye clinic in one of the Walmarts and he told me that Walmart doesn't hire him or the other optometrists. They just pay rent to Walmart and they themselves run their office. He told me only the optical section is run by the opticians that are hired by Walmart.

Most of the shops within Wal-Mart are run by independent companies. You can a McD's, Lenscrafters, nail salons, etc there. Wal-Mart does not get into a business unless they see that they can make a profit, wring out inefficiencies from it, and protect itself from liability. Wal-Mart may not run the eye clinic, but they own the pharmacy, grocery store, etc. Did you know that Wal-Mart is now the nation's largest grocer? If Wal-Mart thinks it can do a better job of making money from health and dental clinics than independent companies or sole proprietors who just rent space, don't be surprised to hear one day they are the nation's largest employer of dentists, physicians, and midlevels.

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[blissdental]

Most of the shops within Wal-Mart are run by independent companies. You can a McD's, Lenscrafters, nail salons, etc there. Wal-Mart does not get into a business unless they see that they can make a profit, wring out inefficiencies from it, and protect itself from liability. Wal-Mart may not run the eye clinic, but they own the pharmacy, grocery store, etc. Did you know that Wal-Mart is now the nation's largest grocer? If Wal-Mart thinks it can do a better job of making money from health and dental clinics than independent companies or sole proprietors who just rent space, don't be surprised to hear one day they are the nation's largest employer of dentists, physicians, and midlevels.

Yes I am aware of this because it's a free market but my question was why you think they haven't started getting their hands on dentistry and medicine when they've already started business in pharmacy and opticals a long time ago.
Both Walmart's optical stores and eye exam clinics have been around for a long time. And by the way the OD was speaking and looking at the patient flow of his office I'm pretty sure he's doing pretty good even after paying the high rent. So this made me think on why Walmart isn't taking over the eye clinics..obviously there must be a reason for this and my only guess would be that agian it is a type of service that the OD is selling, not a product. Grocery, glasses and drugs are all products.

For products, as long as the price is low and the quality is ok customers don't really care on who is selling the product. But for service it does matter because there is difference depending on who is delivering the service, especially if it's health related. The mind set of the owner and employees (and especially the employees in huge corporates) is totally different. The owner is more likely to do their best while the employees would do just enough to get the work done to stick around and get their salary.

 

[MeAgain]

Thoughts on this email being sent out?

Dear Friend:
Dentistry is under attack again!
The New Mexico Dental Hygienists’ Association is introducing legislation to create an Advanced Dental Hygiene Practitioner (ADHP). After just two years of extra training, an ADHP would be allowed to perform surgical procedures, including drilling teeth and extractions, right here in New Mexico.
I am outraged by the audacity of the Hygienists’ Association and their followers in Santa Fe to propose such an obvious and dangerous encroachment upon the profession of dentistry.
This hasty and drastic measure could put patients' safety at risk.
For my part, I have personally opened up my checkbook and given to the New Mexico Dental Association’s Political Action Committee (NMDPAC).

 

[armorshell]

Was it actually proposed or is it just something they're talking about. I can't find any legitimate information that there's actually anything on the books.

Let us know who we should write our letters to.

 

[capisce?]

It makes me happy that I am in a conservative state where that will never happen.

So what do they do when they break a root tip and have to get out a surgical handpiece to get it?

How exactly will they be able to differentiate between a simple vs surgical extraction if they've never done both.

Lots of questions, I'm glad it's not something we will need to deal with.

 

[MeAgain]

This was just a portion an email I recieved from Dr. Crook Chairman of NMDPAC New Mexico Dental Association asking for money through a link with the ADA website. They are proposing it with the new hygiene school they are opening at Santa Fe Community College. Not sure where one would send letters but that is a good idea.

 

[armorshell]

It makes me happy that I am in a conservative state where that will never happen.

So what do they do when they break a root tip and have to get out a surgical handpiece to get it?

How exactly will they be able to differentiate between a simple vs surgical extraction if they've never done both.

Lots of questions, I'm glad it's not something we will need to deal with.

The problem is they're getting the ability to do these procedures through legislation as opposed to education. Look at the proposed ADHP curricula, they're absolutely ridiculous. Apparently 16 credits worth of clinical education is enough to practice a good portion of the field of dentistry.

 

[KOM]

Downward spiral.

You're in a conservative state where that will never happen? AK is as conservative as it gets...have you heard the term dental therapist?

 

[Cold Front]

So what do they do when they break a root tip and have to get out a surgical handpiece to get it?

They might as well place an implant while they are at it.

 

[hoss19]

Downward spiral.

You're in a conservative state where that will never happen? AK is as conservative as it gets...have you heard the term dental therapist?

maybe i need some more info on the program, but arent dental therapists limited to only providing service for native alaskans and individuals in remote areas of the state?

 

[makushin]

maybe i need some more info on the program, but arent dental therapists limited to only providing service for native alaskans and individuals in remote areas of the state?

Yes, and that's why New Mexico is probably justifying it. Native populations.

 

[mike3kgt]

Yes, and that's why New Mexico is probably justifying it. Native populations.

That's how medicine justified Nurse Practitioners, Nurse Anesthetists, PAs, etc. It's a slippery slope and down right frightening for the general dentist.

 

[DrJeff]

The problem is they're getting the ability to do these procedures through legislation as opposed to education. Look at the proposed ADHP curricula, they're absolutely ridiculous. Apparently 16 credits worth of clinical education is enough to practice a good portion of the field of dentistry.

What the BIG issue is here is that STATE legislators keep hearing from their poor constituents that are on medicaid that they can't find any dentist that will accept their insurance.

The legislators who in most case rarely hear from their dentist constituents except to complain about things, and likely don't receive very many campaign contributions from constituent dentists, will in their simplistic view of things think that a mid level practitioner for dentistry can be used as a menas to increase access to care. Of course in their minds, if a Nurse Practitioner can work in medicine, then a similar figure can in dentistry. The scary thing is that there are many models of a mid level dental practitioner around the world where the data supports that they can indeed do competent work. New Zeland has the most successful model of this. It take substantial gov't $$ to make it work though.

In Connecticut where I live and practice, we are a state that in all likelyhood will be seeing legislation introduced to create a mid level practitioner in the not too distant future. In CT, we have a multi-term elected state rep who sits on the health committee, who was a hygienist prior to becoming a state rep. The legislation is all but in place in Alaska and Minnesota already.

This truely is a big picture scheme where dentistry needs to look closely at itself. If we suddenly start just calling our legislators saying "no, no, no", more than likely dentists as a whole will be looked on by the politicians as a bunch of rich, self prserving folks, and they may very well try and control this almost inevitable mid-level practitioner by legislation only. If dentistry as a whole gets behind this, we can provide, guidance and input as to how the training and regulation occurs. Personally I'd rather we have a say than just the legislators.

Another big scheme picture here is that atleast in CT, the talk is that these mid level practitoners will be for public health settings only. If that is indeed the case, well then the cold reality is that the gov't will need to subsidize these mid level practitioners alot based in the state medicaid rates present in many states, and especially in the current economic climate, well find more $$ for programs isn't easy.

Atleast in CT, what we dentists have done which is proving so far to be an easy an effective tool to DECREASE the demand for the mid-level practitioner was a two fold agreement with the legislators. Many of us practicing dentists in CT signed an agreement saying that if the state would up the medicaid reimbursement rates, that many of us would sign up for medicaid (initially we had about 10% of licensed dentists in CT participating). The "old rate" were frankly insulting. Basically they even made dental school fees look high. The new rates are at 70% of the average state rates(what this means is that the rates they they reimburse will meet or exceed those charged by 70% of the practitioning dentists in the state, NOT 70% of what insurance companies deem as usual, customary and reasonable) and for kids under 18, the rates are acceptable(in CT, the medicaid reimbursement rates for adults is 50% of the kids rates). As a result of this, with the last year, the percentage of CT dentists enrolled in medicaid has gone from roughly 10% to almost 50%. The other nice thing is that we can be as selective as we want with choosing what medicaid patients we see in CT. So if I choose, I could literally say that I'm only going to accept 10 medicaid patients between the ages of 13 and 15, and thats fine.

What this issue really requires is that we as a whole in dentistry need to take a deep breath and look beyond the security of our 2,000 sq. foot 4 operatory sanctuaries and look BIG picture for a few minutes. And in reality that big picture involves the question of if we as dentists want to help control the training and regulation of a mid level provider or do we want legislators to control them. Personally I think that we'll do a heck of alot better job than the politicians.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

What the BIG issue is here is that STATE legislators keep hearing from their poor constituents that are on medicaid that they can't find any dentist that will accept their insurance.

The legislators who in most case rarely hear from their dentist constituents except to complain about things, and likely don't receive very many campaign contributions from constituent dentists, will in their simplistic view of things think that a mid level practitioner for dentistry can be used as a menas to increase access to care. Of course in their minds, if a Nurse Practitioner can work in medicine, then a similar figure can in dentistry. The scary thing is that there are many models of a mid level dental practitioner around the world where the data supports that they can indeed do competent work. New Zeland has the most successful model of this. It take substantial gov't $$ to make it work though.

In Connecticut where I live and practice, we are a state that in all likelyhood will be seeing legislation introduced to create a mid level practitioner in the not too distant future. In CT, we have a multi-term elected state rep who sits on the health committee, who was a hygienist prior to becoming a state rep. The legislation is all but in place in Alaska and Minnesota already.

This truely is a big picture scheme where dentistry needs to look closely at itself. If we suddenly start just calling our legislators saying "no, no, no", more than likely dentists as a whole will be looked on by the politicians as a bunch of rich, self prserving folks, and they may very well try and control this almost inevitable mid-level practitioner by legislation only. If dentistry as a whole gets behind this, we can provide, guidance and input as to how the training and regulation occurs. Personally I'd rather we have a say than just the legislators.

Another big scheme picture here is that atleast in CT, the talk is that these mid level practitoners will be for public health settings only. If that is indeed the case, well then the cold reality is that the gov't will need to subsidize these mid level practitioners alot based in the state medicaid rates present in many states, and especially in the current economic climate, well find more $$ for programs isn't easy.

Atleast in CT, what we dentists have done which is proving so far to be an easy an effective tool to DECREASE the demand for the mid-level practitioner was a two fold agreement with the legislators. Many of us practicing dentists in CT signed an agreement saying that if the state would up the medicaid reimbursement rates, that many of us would sign up for medicaid (initially we had about 10% of licensed dentists in CT participating). The "old rate" were frankly insulting. Basically they even made dental school fees look high. The new rates are at 70% of the average state rates(what this means is that the rates they they reimburse will meet or exceed those charged by 70% of the practitioning dentists in the state, NOT 70% of what insurance companies deem as usual, customary and reasonable) and for kids under 18, the rates are acceptable(in CT, the medicaid reimbursement rates for adults is 50% of the kids rates). As a result of this, with the last year, the percentage of CT dentists enrolled in medicaid has gone from roughly 10% to almost 50%. The other nice thing is that we can be as selective as we want with choosing what medicaid patients we see in CT. So if I choose, I could literally say that I'm only going to accept 10 medicaid patients between the ages of 13 and 15, and thats fine.

What this issue really requires is that we as a whole in dentistry need to take a deep breath and look beyond the security of our 2,000 sq. foot 4 operatory sanctuaries and look BIG picture for a few minutes. And in reality that big picture involves the question of if we as dentists want to help control the training and regulation of a mid level provider or do we want legislators to control them. Personally I think that we'll do a heck of alot better job than the politicians.

Thank You! The only problem is that dentists need to act on this and inform our local legislators of this information and develop better relationships with them. How do you suggest we accomplish this nationwide?

 

[MeAgain]

The problem is they're getting the ability to do these procedures through legislation as opposed to education. Look at the proposed ADHP curricula, they're absolutely ridiculous. Apparently 16 credits worth of clinical education is enough to practice a good portion of the field of dentistry.

Wow, this will really change the fabric of the entire profession. How would they guarantee these therapists would enter public health? With existing hygienists making the money they do already, I am assuming the only people able to afford these highly trained hygienists would be dentists rolling in patients and $$$. I know some public health clinics that already pay their hygiene staff $56,000 & other public health clinics offering the dentists a salary of $75,000- 80,000. Not too much of a difference there.

I hope the ADA has enough organization to stop this- they would ultimately lose control of a good portion of clinical practice. Not to mention, sh&! can happen even when you enter a clinical procedure that you think is going to be simple.

If they want to do dental procedures they really should go to dental school. Agree with everyone there!

 

[KOM]

MeAgain - we just hashed all this out recently. I encourage you to do a search.

This generation of dentists will be the end of the "golden era" of dentistry. Changes will occur and as DrJeff stated, dentists will need to accept a certain number of lower re-imbursement rate patients or be prepared for changes happening even sooner.

Many dental schools are state funded. If the dentists they produce aren't serving the state's dental care needs then they will do what they can to make legislators happy.

The UofMN is going to start their ADHP program probably in another couple years. They have already made trips to New Zealand and presented their findings to us.



Guess what...intensive training on "cutting teeth" and "chasing caries" is proving to be better than the alternative...no care at all.

 

[MeAgain]

opps........I encourage everyone to try to stop these hygiene programs even if they can't see the disadvantages to them right now. Signing off......

 

[DrJeff]

Thank You! The only problem is that dentists need to act on this and inform our local legislators of this information and develop better relationships with them. How do you suggest we accomplish this nationwide?

The bottomline is to get involved with your local legislator. I will basically guarentee you that your State Dental Society will have some type of e-mail system in place for you to be able to contact your local state legislator, if they don't, well they should. Using my home State of CT as an example, what the CT State Dental Society has in place is the following. If there is a dental issue up for debate/vote, a mass e-mailing goes out to all of the CT State Dental Association members they have e-mail addresses for. Basically once you open the e-mail, all you have to do is insert your name and if you want any additional comments and a form e-mail is sent to your state rep. The other thing that we in CT have in place is a very good program utilizing the local component societies where basically once every year or two, we have the state reps that cover that society to a dinner where you can talk issues with them one on one. You'd be suprised at how many reps are more than happy to come and speak to a room full of dentists who they perceive as potential campaign donors.

To fight this issue, it is one where we in dentistry will need to have a face to face recognition with our elected officials, and if we just wnat to sit back and do nothing, out reps WILL pass this type of legislation in more states than they won't in the coming years WITHOUT any input from dentists

 

[MeAgain]

don't let this discussion die! Very informative and keep this on top of your priorities. I am worried the ADA has acted a little too slowly with their proposal for 8 more schools.

More dentists not ADHPs!

 

[Rube]

The reality is every couple of years this access to care issue comes up and its not going away. The problem is that for the first time ever in America we have illegitimacy rates approaching 35%... (they were 6% in 1960) that is a breading ground for chronic poverty, the kind of poverty that is high risk for oral disease, heck any disease, the kind of poverty that will almost NEVER be able to afford care without the government. I'm not trying to scare people, but if I were going to do 2 things as a dentist, I'd concentrate on upping medicaid AND on pro family legislation and politicians. Otherwise we are inviting trouble into our profession.

 

[MeAgain]

The reality is every couple of years this access to care issue comes up and its not going away. The problem is that for the first time ever in America we have illegitimacy rates approaching 35%... (they were 6% in 1960) that is a breading ground for chronic poverty, the kind of poverty that is high risk for oral disease, heck any disease, the kind of poverty that will almost NEVER be able to afford care without the government. I'm not trying to scare people, but if I were going to do 2 things as a dentist, I'd concentrate on upping medicaid AND on pro family legislation and politicians. Otherwise we are inviting trouble into our profession.

I think it is best we stay within our realm of dentistry and not veer into people's personal choices.

Let's stay with the task at hand- I am worried the ADA did not put a halt to these hygiene programs early enough. Let's push for an increase in medicaid compensation and more dental schools to address the access to care issue. No one is going to really be able to monitor what goes on in peoples bedrooms or wombs. The world is just too diverse of a place to even try.

 

[Aceofspades]

Hey Mods, shouldn't this thread be merged with the other "Advanced dental hygiene practitioner" thread. It will make it easier for people searching for this topic and to see prior discussions.

 

[malenurse72]

Well I think it is a great idea. why?

Well there are people like me who do not want to spend 4 years in dental school and cannot get into dental school anyway. I may not have the best grades or the brightest mind or whatever b.s. they want or want to spend 4 years in school (the less the better), but I want to be a dentist and enjoy the lifestyle of being a dentist and get paid the same amount of money a dentist does and have people respect me like they do dentists and make the most/more money like a dentist. But I don't want to go through all the b.s.*** school that dentists have to.

Remember fellas:

This is America.

Anybody should be able to be a dentist if they want to. I want to be a dentist. There you go...

 

[malenurse72]

Thoughts on this email being sent out?

Dear Friend:
Dentistry is under attack again!
The New Mexico Dental Hygienists' Association is introducing legislation to create an Advanced Dental Hygiene Practitioner (ADHP). After just two years of extra training, an ADHP would be allowed to perform surgical procedures, including drilling teeth and extractions, right here in New Mexico.
I am outraged by the audacity of the Hygienists' Association and their followers in Santa Fe to propose such an obvious and dangerous encroachment upon the profession of dentistry.
This hasty and drastic measure could put patients' safety at risk.
For my part, I have personally opened up my checkbook and given to the New Mexico Dental Association's Political Action Committee (NMDPAC).

Well listen buddy if I want to be a dentist you cannot stop me just because I have a passion for teeth does not make me a bad person. And I am NOT doing this mainly for the money. But I DO think we should be paid the same amount as dentists - it is only fair. And I will make sure of it that we do make the SAME amount of money that dentists do. And I did NOT find out about this job by researching highest hourly salary lists on Google or whatever other b.s. I have wanted to be a dentist forever and now my dream is finally coming true. But we do need to work like dentists and make the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY like they do. THAT IS WHAT IS RIGHT. Not that it is the most important thing. It is not. But the money thing NEEDS to be sorted.

 

[armorshell]

Well I think it is a great idea. why?

Well there are people like me who do not want to spend 4 years in dental school and cannot get into dental school anyway. I may not have the best grades or the brightest mind or whatever b.s. they want or want to spend 4 years in school (the less the better), but I want to be a dentist and enjoy the lifestyle of being a dentist and get paid the same amount of money a dentist does and have people respect me like they do dentists and make the most/more money like a dentist. But I don't want to go through all the b.s.*** school that dentists have to.

Remember fellas:

This is America.

Anybody should be able to be a dentist if they want to. I want to be a dentist. There you go...

I want a solid gold sailboat but that doesn't mean I deserve it. If you can't make the grades to be a dentist, or deal with the sacrifice in time and money to become one, you don't deserve to be one. Get over it.

 

[armorshell]

Well listen buddy if I want to be a dentist you cannot stop me just because I have a passion for teeth does not make me a bad person. And I am NOT doing this mainly for the money. But I DO think we should be paid the same amount as dentists - it is only fair. And I will make sure of it that we do make the SAME amount of money that dentists do. And I did NOT find out about this job by researching highest hourly salary lists on Google or whatever other b.s. I have wanted to be a dentist forever and now my dream is finally coming true. But we do need to work like dentists and make the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY like they do. THAT IS WHAT IS RIGHT. Not that it is the most important thing. It is not. But the money thing NEEDS to be sorted.

Just like PA's and NP's make as much as MDs, right? My bad guys, should have read this one first. Clearly a troll.

 

[MeAgain]

Can all move to the other hygiene practitioner thread?

 

[aphistis]

Merging.

 

[zxc1234]

Well I think it is a great idea. why?

Well there are people like me who do not want to spend 4 years in dental school and cannot get into dental school anyway. I may not have the best grades or the brightest mind or whatever b.s. they want or want to spend 4 years in school (the less the better), but I want to be a dentist and enjoy the lifestyle of being a dentist and get paid the same amount of money a dentist does and have people respect me like they do dentists and make the most/more money like a dentist. But I don't want to go through all the b.s.*** school that dentists have to.

Remember fellas:

This is America.

Anybody should be able to be a dentist if they want to. I want to be a dentist. There you go...

Why did you became a nurse instead of a dental hygienist? It is obvious you are not interested in dentistry. Become a CRNA if you want to make a six-figure salary. They don't have to work no more than 40 hours per week.

edit: If you feel that you deserve the same amount of money as the dentist how are you going to convince the patients to come to your office? I wouldn't pay someone that went to school for six years opposed to a dentist the same amount of money for my dental work.

What a dumb ass.

 

[RDH325]

 

[RDH325]

.

 

[RDH325]

Wow! Considering you are only a dental student, I am extremely surprised by your already deamining attitude towards dental hygienists. I always hear comments from individuals who say that dentist are individuals who entered the dental field because they were not smart enough to go to medical school, and as a dental professional I have always taken a stand against people who think that way. I have been in dentistry for twenty years and have had the priviledge to work with several dentists. I must say the biggest deterent for obtaining a successful practice is when the dentist has an arrogant attitude and considers themselves far superior to their "employees" or as stated in the past their "girls." Believe it or not patients are very perceptive and can tell when individuals have "God-like" attitudes, and this really does turn them off.

As a registered dental hygienist, I have the privilege of working with a dentist who treats me as a part of her dental team. She values my expertise and respects me as a dental professional. Because of the respect she has for each individual who works for her, she has been able to build an amazing practice and has a very low staff turnover. Just some advice from me, if you want to one day enjoy the benefits of a successful practice, you need to remember that everyone who makes up your practice is a vital part of your success.

If I were to practice as an advanced dental hygiene practioner, I would expect to have to do more schooling and would not have any issues with that. The fact that you mention that we are not smart enough to go to dental school is extremely deamining and uncalled for. I have a four year undergraduate degree and have taking the same courses you have and guarantee that if I were in dental school I would peform extremely well. My undergrad gpa was a 3.89, I have twenty years of experience with patients, and I guarantee I would peform extremely well on my dental boards. However, I have two wonderful children who are my priority, not going to dental school. By the way, have you ever thought that perhaps we enjoy specializing in the area of preventive dentistry? Always remember that the grades don't say it all! You can have a 4.0 gpa, pass your boards, and be a horrible dentist. It is all about how you are able to interact with individuals and your clinical aptitude in providing care, yes personality is a biggy!

I wish you the best of luck with your studies. You are about to enter a field that is both fulfilling and exciting, and I hope you are able to get past your insecurities.

First off, my question is if the state of Minnesota allows this ADHP thing to go through, why not put a absolute designation on where these dental student wannabes should practice. Since their arguement is about lack of access in these underserved areas, the government should put them in those areas and let them eat their words. And I'll bet anyone that these wannabes will start begging for working rights in all areas. They (those who never made it to dental school or think they can't get in or don't work hard enough to get in) should make a better arguement. Why won't they just flat out say they want a life of a dentist but are too ******ed to go to dental school. It's so true that dental HYGIENE should be all about hygiene. Everyone knows that a dentist just like their couterparts in the medical profession (MD's) have a broad-based education. We go through undergrad and them some 4 or more years in PROFESSIONAL school. So if these hygienist want to become ADVANCED, sure get better at cleaning. That should just be it. What these people are essentially asking for is to perform the same tasks as a general dentist. Heck, to prove that they are not adequate in terms of knowledge to provide the services they proclaim they can do, why not have them take the same boards as we dental students do, and have them take the same state licensing exams. I guarentee more than 95 percent of those ADHP peeps would not past.

But if all else fails. Guest what, we dental students and dentist shouldn't have to worry, because the only reason a consumer would ever go to these ADHP people is if they don't have access to a regular dentist. Common sense tells anyone that if they have the money or dental insurance, they are only going to go to a ADHP if they can't access a dentist or if the ADHP charges their services at a much lower price than a dentist. But guess what these ADHP people are not going to by any means charge at a lower price. The only reason there in this position is to make money quick and easy. So rest assure we as true dental professionals will not lack patients or income. Everyone knows the difference between a fine Mexican restuarant and a Taco Bell. Same goes for a dentist and a ADHP.

And watch when these ADHP people start seeing patients with numerous health probelms, their going to be opening up a big can of worms and then rest assure the government will step in some how.

 

[RDH325]

I feel that the only ones who have a chip on their shoulders are the dentist and dental students who are posting deamining comments about dental hygienists. I feel that dental school is being glorified a bit too much here. Let's face the reality of the schooling...the first four years of undergraduate are the same any other science major student would have to complete. The biology courses, chemistry courses, physics courses, organic chem courses.....as a registered hygienist, I have done those. O.K. so what does a dentist have over me, well two additional years of school. Remember during your first two years of dental school you are taking the same courses that dental hygienist had to take, dental anatomy, dental radiology, dental materials, histology, pharmacology, perio, etc. etc. During your last two years you concentrate on the restorative aspect of dentisry. Do you not think that if this law were to pass, there wouldn't be a requirement for further education in restorative dentistry for the hygienist? Remember, we will have to go to school for another two years to even practice in this capacity. I just wish you would all see that it is all about patients. The only ones mentioning money here are the dentist...suprise..suprise. If you are excellent denstists and have gained the trust of your patients then there is no need to worry, for those of you who have such insecurities, I wonder about your relationship with your patients.

Wow! Somebody has a chip on her shoulder. Why does it make a difference that you are in your 30's. Many of my classmates were in their 30's and a few were in their 40's. You mention work commitments. If you have time to hold down a job during school - you are NOT getting equivalent training. Not possible.

This isn't about hygienists not being smart enough. I know construction workers smarter than some of my dental school classmates. It is about training. Either dentists are needlessly overtrained or the ADHP is undertrained. Take your pick, but there is no middle ground there.

 

[RDH325]

I am assuming you have a pretty high turnover when it comes to your hygienists. The reality of the situation is this: in the future there will be an expansion of the duties performed by dental assistants, expanded function dental assistants, and dental hygienists. As a hygienist, I know that eventually assistants will be performing procedures that I currently perform. The funny thing is that dentist don't have an issue with fighting for legislation that allows an uneducated assistant to perform supragingival scaling or dental hygiene procedures. I wonder why dentist would want this, could it be so they can schedule more patients and get more money? I would think that they would be concerned that an expanded functions dental assistant could harm a patient if they did this, since there training is more geared towards restorative dentisry. As to community college education for dental hygiene, I would love for you to enroll in a dental hygiene program and breeze right through it. Just like dental school is rigorous, dental hygiene school demands just as much.

Remember there are those of us who have undergraduate degrees and are pursuing graduate degrees. If you were a neurosurgeon or chemical engineer I may be more apt to bow down at your feet, but you are not those things. You are a dentist who works on teeth! The hardest thing about dentistry is in dealing with difficult individuals. It doesn't take rocket science to learn how to prep a tooth and restore it. Let's face reality if we were to give those of you who have been practicing dentistry an exam on the things you learned in dental school or even in dealing with medical emergencies, you would fail miserably. Although, I feel we are all capable of dialing 911 so that the experts in dealing with "medical" emergencies could handle the situation.

A doctorate for a CRNA, doesn't that just defeat the entire point of why the profession was created in the first place!?!

A doctorate in hygiene, no disrespect to hyg but you have go to be kidding me! It's a job that requires a 2 year assoc degree from community college. If you want to further your education then go for the bachelor's degee. But a freakin' Ph.D... we already have them anyways, they're called PERIODONTISTS. If I interviewed a hygienist and she put that on her resume, I'd laugh out loud and promptly toss it in the can... actually maybe I'd call her just to see what the deal was as to why she didn't just go to dental school in the first place out of curiosity. I can only imagine the ego of a phD hygienist running around and office. She's probably too good in her mind to do prophies on anyone under the age of 18 and wants to do subgingival cultures on every patient. God help the whole profession if there's a bunch of these folks running around, ADHP will look like a walk in the park compared to these people.

 

[it'sme]

!

 

[aphistis]

I feel that the only ones who have a chip on their shoulders are the dentist and dental students who are posting deamining comments about dental hygienists. I feel that dental school is being glorified a bit too much here. Let's face the reality of the schooling...the first four years of undergraduate are the same any other science major student would have to complete. The biology courses, chemistry courses, physics courses, organic chem courses.....as a registered hygienist, I have done those. O.K. so what does a dentist have over me, well two additional years of school. Remember during your first two years of dental school you are taking the same courses that dental hygienist had to take, dental anatomy, dental radiology, dental materials, histology, pharmacology, perio, etc. etc. During your last two years you concentrate on the restorative aspect of dentisry. Do you not think that if this law were to pass, there wouldn't be a requirement for further education in restorative dentistry for the hygienist? Remember, we will have to go to school for another two years to even practice in this capacity. I just wish you would all see that it is all about patients. The only ones mentioning money here are the dentist...suprise..suprise. If you are excellent denstists and have gained the trust of your patients then there is no need to worry, for those of you who have such insecurities, I wonder about your relationship with your patients.

Are you seriously suggesting that, just because hygiene and DDS/DMD students both take a course with the same name, they're absorbing the same breadth and depth of information? If so, you're living in a fairy tale.

I mean for this to be informational and not condescending, but the difference between undergraduate- and professional- level coursework is substantial. You've probably heard the expression "you don't know what you don't know," and it applies here. Until you have the education and training to understand it, don't expect dentists to pay any attention when you complain about how easy and brainless our profession is.

 

[emc2a]

The courses hygienists must take are introductory courses. Intro to / Principles of Chemistry, Intro to / Principles of Biology, Intro to / Principles of Organic Chemistry, etc. and only one semester at that. Do you really want to imply that these classes are as difficult as one year of the real thing? I know of a few people who took these intro courses and later took the basic courses and failed / had to drop them.

Anyway, that is just talking about undergrad. The same principle translates to graduate school. As others stated, you are disillusioned if you think the training in a masters in dental hygiene program is equivalent to the training received in a doctorate in dentistry program. Basically you said that the reason you think the ADHP idea is great is because your family is a priority and you don't have to go to 4 years of school. In other words, you want to take a shortcut. Well, wouldn't anybody? Dentists invest much more time into their careers and skills.

 

[RDH325]

Just to bring you down from your cloud...my undergraduate degree included Chem I & II for science majors, Bio I & II for science majors, Organic I & II, Physics I & II, and Calculus, as well as Anatomy & Physiology I & II, and Microbiology...so I now exactly what it is to sit through coursework that requires intense studying. For those of you entering dental school with no prior dental experience...I now for a fact that I would excel in dental school...I am definately smart enough to get through it and for those of you who are book smart, let me have you face the facts...."GETTING A'S IS NOT ENOUGH." You can do great in your book work, but if your personality is not great...good luck establishing a practice. I left the last practice I was working in because the dentist had such an arrogance about him, I couldn't stand to look at him. The funny thing is patients had great issues trusting him because of his personality. He would leave the room and they would look to me "the individual inferior to you dentists" to reasure them that what the dentist was saying was actually needed. I find it interesting that patients actually had more trust in me as a dental hygienist than they did the dentist who went to school for "8 years."

If any of you want to finance my education and help me raise my children, I would be happy to challenge you in dental school. I am completing my master degree because I love learning and it is a continous process, of course except for those of you who already think you are "God."

The courses hygienists must take are introductory courses. Intro to / Principles of Chemistry, Intro to / Principles of Biology, Intro to / Principles of Organic Chemistry, etc. and only one semester at that. Do you really want to imply that these classes are as difficult as one year of the real thing? I know of a few people who took these intro courses and later took the basic courses and failed / had to drop them.

Anyway, that is just talking about undergrad. The same principle translates to graduate school. As others stated, you are disillusioned if you think the training in a masters in dental hygiene program is equivalent to the training received in a doctorate in dentistry program. Basically you said that the reason you think the ADHP idea is great is because your family is a priority and you don't have to go to 4 years of school. In other words, you want to take a shortcut. Well, wouldn't anybody? Dentists invest much more time into their careers and skills.

 

[RDH325]

I find it condesending that you can call hygienist brainless; however, when you get it back you have great issues with this. I feel real sorry for those of you who are in dental school and have such negative attitudes towards the individuals who can help you in building your practice. I think it is insulting and makes me sick to my stomach that individuals who haven't even graduated from dental school already have such a great arroagance about themselves. You should try to be a little more humble, it may get you further in your careers!

Are you seriously suggesting that, just because hygiene and DDS/DMD students both take a course with the same name, they're absorbing the same breadth and depth of information? If so, you're living in a fairy tale.

I mean for this to be informational and not condescending, but the difference between undergraduate- and professional- level coursework is substantial. You've probably heard the expression "you don't know what you don't know," and it applies here. Until you have the education and training to understand it, don't expect dentists to pay any attention when you complain about how easy and brainless our profession is.

 

[RDH325]

O.k. we must admit that a tooth is a tooth is a tooth. You can't tell me that your dental courses were any different from the ones that we took....Come on periodontal disease is what it is. The causes the last I looked are the same, the bacteria, yep probably the same that you learned. Dental radiology...yes I think we learned the same concepts...exposing them, the chemistry behind them, how to read them. Dental materials, well I bet dental auxilaries understand them more then dentists since they are the ones mixing them. You must admit that dentistry is what it is. Yes we have a shift in how individuals are treated for dental caries or periodontal disease, but that knowledge comes with reading peer reiviewed journals given us new information on treatment modalities. If you are a student, you need to realize that every person in your practice will contribute to your sucess and until you learn to respect what each individual can contribute to your practice, you will not get too far. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your concerns regarding the dental hygiene practioner, and as a hygienist I would except that there will be strict educational requirements and guidelines that will need to be followed. I get concerned when dentist push for assistants to be able to perform dental hygiene services without the education because I know the great wealth of information that I learned in dental hygiene school to gain my expertise in this area. I just wish you would all have a little more respect for us as dental professionals.

Are you seriously suggesting that, just because hygiene and DDS/DMD students both take a course with the same name, they're absorbing the same breadth and depth of information? If so, you're living in a fairy tale.

I mean for this to be informational and not condescending, but the difference between undergraduate- and professional- level coursework is substantial. You've probably heard the expression "you don't know what you don't know," and it applies here. Until you have the education and training to understand it, don't expect dentists to pay any attention when you complain about how easy and brainless our profession is.

 

[ldsmbhc]

I find it condesending that you can call hygienist brainless; however, when you get it back you have great issues with this. I feel real sorry for those of you who are in dental school and have such negative attitudes towards the individuals who can help you in building your practice. I think it is insulting and makes me sick to my stomach that individuals who haven't even graduated from dental school already have such a great arroagance about themselves. You should try to be a little more humble, it may get you further in your careers!

RDH325, I hope this doesn't sound mean but I find your responses contradict your argument. Listen to your tone. It is extremely condescending. I am assuming you feel oppressed and want to take it out on someone...please do it somewhere else.

 

[aphistis]

I find it condesending that you can call hygienist brainless; however, when you get it back you have great issues with this. I feel real sorry for those of you who are in dental school and have such negative attitudes towards the individuals who can help you in building your practice. I think it is insulting and makes me sick to my stomach that individuals who haven't even graduated from dental school already have such a great arroagance about themselves. You should try to be a little more humble, it may get you further in your careers!

I'm going to assume you're addressing someone else in this post, because I never said hygiene was brainless. Read what I wrote, not what you want to see.

 

[aphistis]

O.k. we must admit that a tooth is a tooth is a tooth. You can't tell me that your dental courses were any different from the ones that we took....Come on periodontal disease is what it is. The causes the last I looked are the same, the bacteria, yep probably the same that you learned. Dental radiology...yes I think we learned the same concepts...exposing them, the chemistry behind them, how to read them. Dental materials, well I bet dental auxilaries understand them more then dentists since they are the ones mixing them. You must admit that dentistry is what it is. Yes we have a shift in how individuals are treated for dental caries or periodontal disease, but that knowledge comes with reading peer reiviewed journals given us new information on treatment modalities. If you are a student, you need to realize that every person in your practice will contribute to your sucess and until you learn to respect what each individual can contribute to your practice, you will not get too far. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your concerns regarding the dental hygiene practioner, and as a hygienist I would except that there will be strict educational requirements and guidelines that will need to be followed. I get concerned when dentist push for assistants to be able to perform dental hygiene services without the education because I know the great wealth of information that I learned in dental hygiene school to gain my expertise in this area. I just wish you would all have a little more respect for us as dental professionals.

Like I said before: you don't know what you don't know, and I think you'll find few dentists interested in arguing about it.

 

[emc2a]

Just to bring you down from your cloud...my undergraduate degree included Chem I & II for science majors, Bio I & II for science majors, Organic I & II, Physics I & II, and Calculus, as well as Anatomy & Physiology I & II, and Microbiology...so I now exactly what it is to sit through coursework that requires intense studying. For those of you entering dental school with no prior dental experience...I now for a fact that I would excel in dental school...I am definately smart enough to get through it and for those of you who are book smart, let me have you face the facts...."GETTING A'S IS NOT ENOUGH." You can do great in your book work, but if your personality is not great...good luck establishing a practice. I left the last practice I was working in because the dentist had such an arrogance about him, I couldn't stand to look at him. The funny thing is patients had great issues trusting him because of his personality. He would leave the room and they would look to me "the individual inferior to you dentists" to reasure them that what the dentist was saying was actually needed. I find it interesting that patients actually had more trust in me as a dental hygienist than they did the dentist who went to school for "8 years."

If any of you want to finance my education and help me raise my children, I would be happy to challenge you in dental school. I am completing my master degree because I love learning and it is a continous process, of course except for those of you who already think you are "God."

If you think you could go through dental school (and I believe you), then that is what I think you should do instead of hurting the profession by making these shortcuts acceptable.

 

[ou_jay]

Without intending to be rude or condescending towards hygienists in general, I would like to offer an analogy to point out the silliness of your argument.

Maybe they should start advanced Dental Assistant programs. They could do an extra three months of training and learn to do scaling & root planing and administer local anesthesia. I mean, in dental assisting school they take the same classes as dental hygienists. For example, the dental assisting program at UAB lists Anatomy & Physiology, Dental Materials, and Dental Radiology.

 

[QCkid]

Its common in human nature and getting more common in our society that people want to get the most out of doing the least that they can. In dental school we had several hygenists that were going through dental school, couple of them told me they had the same attitiude as the RDH that has been posting here. Dental school changed that. A dentist isn't just a doctor thats cuts and fills a tooth, granted some dentist reduce themselves to this kind of practitioner, but their is so much more to what a dentist does and the knowledge that is required. The courses in Hygiene and Dentistry are NOT equivelant.

 

[makushin]

.

 

[RDH325]

Obviously, many are interested by my postings so keep reading......

Like I said before: you don't know what you don't know, and I think you'll find few dentists interested in arguing about it.

 

[RDH325]

My point in writing the statement you quoted below is that dentist are pushing for assistants to be able to do my job and are not at all concerned with the level of expertise they have achieved, so how is this any different? Why do dentist feel it is fine for assistants to perform dental hygiene services without training or "on the job training" I am sorry, yet when there is a possibility of hygienists stepping into their area it becomes a grave concern.

I don't think this legislation is going to allow hygienists to step into areas where there are dentist practicing. In Pennsylvania Gov Rendell passed legislation that will allow us to practice as public dental hygiene practioners without the direct supervision of a dentist. Under this new legislation we are not permitted to go out and open up our own "offices"; however, we are permitted to work in nursing care homes, government agencies, free clinics, schools, without the supervision of the dentist. I don't see us being able to take away from your practices, but instead helping in areas were there is great need. Trust me, I don't see were me prepping a tooth for a crown is going to help with the problem of access to care, and I don't see this being allowed. I am also very big on making sure that I am experienced in the services I provide, so I wouldn't extract a tooth, perform a root canal, or whatever else you are all mentioning. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the restrictions that will be set in place regarding the advanced dental hygiene practioner. However, you must admit that if we are helping to treat those individuals who don't have the funds to go to the high end dental offices, you will be able to concentrate on treating patients who can actually pay you for your services. Most of the individuals who this new level of hygienists will be able to treat are on government insurance programs or hmo's. I am sorry but I have tempted at offices that take HMO's and it is a disgrace that offices schedule them for 30 minute appointments, but this is how the dentist needs to schedule in order to run his practice and make money. Unfortanately for these patients, they don't receive the thorough service they deserve. I have stopped taking temporary jobs at these practices because I feel the offices require me to take shortcuts that I feel are unethical. I grew up on welfare myself, so I know what these individuals go through on a daily basis. If there were more options for them, it would be huge! I also speak Spanish and many patients have mentioned they would love if there were more dentists out there who spoke Spanish as they feel they are at the will of these dentist. YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE! Nobody is trying to take your jobs away from you!

So if the ADHP were to go mainstream, what role do you see for the DDS? Do you think the current DDS degree with its heavy didactic emphasis is obsolete?

Do you believe the ADHP will only practice in rural areas? If so, please suggest why this is plausible.

Finally, can you appreciate the irony in this statement you made?

"I get concerned when dentist push for assistants to be able to perform dental hygiene services without the education because I know the great wealth of information that I learned in dental hygiene school to gain my expertise in this area"

I look forward to your responses.

 

[RDH325]

By the way, I don't think the dentist role will be obsolete at all. They are millions of Americans in this country who need dental care. With the new role of hygienists in PA, we have to refer the patients we see to a dentist on a yearly basis or more if there are problems that need to be taking care off immediately. So, in sense this is going to help you as a dentist. We are going to be seeing patients who would normally not go to a dentist. We are going to be establishing relationships with them and with the dentists in the area. I have seen it over and over were patients tend to be very comfortable with their hygienists, so if we make a refer them to a dentist who we have built a relationship with, they are going to trust or recommendation and go to get the treatment they need. I feel dentist will become much more busy because of this. We will serve to educate individuals on the importance of receiving dental care. I feel this can be a wonderful way to establish strong relationships between dentist and hygienists. Trust me, I am not saying that we are equal individuals educationally, I am saying that hygienists are also very intelligent individuals and don't deserve being called "airheads" by the dental community. As you mentioned, they are bad practioners in both the dental and dental hygiene community, and that no one can fix; however, I feel that both professions are capable of making a huge difference in treating individuals who do not have access to dental care. I personally would concentrate on the pediatric and special needs individuals in lower income communities and Spanish speaking communities. I just feel there is so much that can be done if we just came together and worked towards this goal.

So if the ADHP were to go mainstream, what role do you see for the DDS? Do you think the current DDS degree with its heavy didactic emphasis is obsolete?

Do you believe the ADHP will only practice in rural areas? If so, please suggest why this is plausible.

Finally, can you appreciate the irony in this statement you made?

"I get concerned when dentist push for assistants to be able to perform dental hygiene services without the education because I know the great wealth of information that I learned in dental hygiene school to gain my expertise in this area"

I look forward to your responses.

My point in writing the statement you quoted below is that dentist are pushing for assistants to be able to do my job and are not at all concerned with the level of expertise they have achieved, so how is this any different? Why do dentist feel it is fine for assistants to perform dental hygiene services without training or "on the job training" I am sorry, yet when there is a possibility of hygienists stepping into their area it becomes a grave concern.

I don't think this legislation is going to allow hygienists to step into areas where there are dentist practicing. In Pennsylvania Gov Rendell passed legislation that will allow us to practice as public dental hygiene practioners without the direct supervision of a dentist. Under this new legislation we are not permitted to go out and open up our own "offices"; however, we are permitted to work in nursing care homes, government agencies, free clinics, schools, without the supervision of the dentist. I don't see us being able to take away from your practices, but instead helping in areas were there is great need. Trust me, I don't see were me prepping a tooth for a crown is going to help with the problem of access to care, and I don't see this being allowed. I am also very big on making sure that I am experienced in the services I provide, so I wouldn't extract a tooth, perform a root canal, or whatever else you are all mentioning. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the restrictions that will be set in place regarding the advanced dental hygiene practioner. However, you must admit that if we are helping to treat those individuals who don't have the funds to go to the high end dental offices, you will be able to concentrate on treating patients who can actually pay you for your services. Most of the individuals who this new level of hygienists will be able to treat are on government insurance programs or hmo's. I am sorry but I have tempted at offices that take HMO's and it is a disgrace that offices schedule them for 30 minute appointments, but this is how the dentist needs to schedule in order to run his practice and make money. Unfortanately for these patients, they don't receive the thorough service they deserve. I have stopped taking temporary jobs at these practices because I feel the offices require me to take shortcuts that I feel are unethical. I grew up on welfare myself, so I know what these individuals go through on a daily basis. If there were more options for them, it would be huge! I also speak Spanish and many patients have mentioned they would love if there were more dentists out there who spoke Spanish as they feel they are at the will of these dentist. YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE! Nobody is trying to take your jobs away from you!