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AF JSGME IFB info... MUST READ for AF Applicants/HPSPers

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by towellman, Jul 14, 2006.

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  1. mar8d

    mar8d

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    Thanks for the numbers. I had read Luke Ballard's website already, but I (naively) thought there would be something more solid out there rather than a rough estimate.

    We just had our 4th year orientation regarding interviews and getting ready for applying for the match next year. Now after reading these threads, I'm really freaked out. Oh well, hopefully everything will turn out ok and I won't get screwed.:eek: Haha
  2. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    I feel your pain. I'm only an M2 right now, but I'm scared ****less that I'm going to get stuck with a 4-year stint as a flight surgeon.
  3. island doc

    island doc Senior Member

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    I had the same fear when I was in your position, and that fear came true, but not as a FS but as a GMO.
  4. dude44

    dude44

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    I'm a 4 year flight doc- hpsp- now out of the Air Force for 2 years-- so I'll give you a retrospective view--- If you end up doing flight med for whatever reason--- remember a couple of things----- live it up while you can you can't get back into residency any faster by complaining--- when your deployed and have extra time- write case reports, submit to the blue journal and get something published-- that way when you apply for the residency you want as a civilian or in the military your app is that much stronger.
    Being a flight surgeon can be tough in terms of quality of work, seemingly endless routine complaints like knee and back pain, filling out forms ect,--- but at the end of the day you will have done something that most have not--- serve your country--- I am completing my residency now but the experiences I have had in medicine that I am most proud of- came during my FOUR deployments in the Air Force------
  5. caguamo

    caguamo

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    If you complete your 4 years of pay back and then match in an AF residency, would you owe the AF additional time? if so how much?
  6. finnyel

    finnyel

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    That's a good question - doesn't 4yrs as a flight doc fill the requirement of 4yrs active duty?
  7. finnyel

    finnyel

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    Oh, and this forum needs psych counseling - lets everyone name 5 things we like about our lives.

    we signed up for this - none of this is new - I was told point blank that everything but family practice medicine was hit or miss as a residency unless you do a fight med tour, and even then don't join if your heart is on derm. or rad.

    its depressing just reading this forum! we signed the documents, can we make the best of it please?
  8. Galo

    Galo Senior Member

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    I think its a must anyone reading this warning about GME see this post:

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=385725

    It talks about surgical residencies that are not RRC approved. So not only is it possible you will get stuck doing something you do not want to do, but on the off chance you do, you may be doing it in a non RRC-certified program.

    This affects everyone who is a potential ushus/hpsp'r.

    Military GME is dead just like military medicine.
  9. rlwebb

    rlwebb Member

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  10. sethco

    sethco Senior Member

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    The most simple answer is the AF is moving more towards opertional deployable medicine. The number of residency spots will only decrease unless something drastic happens. They are especially cutting EM, Anesthesia, Radiology among others. This is only compounded by the large hospitals closing and turning into "super clinics". So, the options is either send the AF docs to civilian programs to be trained or use them as FSO/GMO. This will continue to happen with the exception of primary care positions. Please keep in mind, this is pure speculation, but I am sure most people in military medicine (in particular, the AF), will not disagree with me. My suggestion, it is not the end of the world if you forced into a GMO billet (Even though it is primary care hell). This may actually be for the better in some cases as you can go into residency afterward and be free to choose whereever you want to go for residency, instead of being at the mercy of the JSGME
  11. USAFGMODOC

    USAFGMODOC Attending physician

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    Military GME uses those GREAT stats like 98% get first choice--- that's BS...

    What those stats mean really,

    If you apply for a residency, don't get selected but get your 1st/2nd choice in your intern year, that is a 100% match rate (per the military).

    SO, yes you got your Transitional year intern, but NO you don't match in radiology/DERM or whatever and boom, you are 100% matched in your FIRST choice. Mind you, you now have to go do 2-3-4 years of Flight Medicine before even APPLYING again....

    So, please don't believe those statistics AT ALL!
  12. BomberDoc

    BomberDoc ex-BomberDoc

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    USAFGMODOC speaks the real deal. If any civilian entity lied/misled like the military does, it would be under criminal investigation and probably get shut down. Because recruiting is an integral part of the military, this BS continues. Unfortunately by the time most of us realize this, we've already signed our life away. That is why these forums are so important to potential victims of milmed.
  13. monkeybaronjr

    monkeybaronjr New Member

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    Quick question:

    While I realize that this discussion is mainly focused on the AF GME selection, I had a question that someone may be able to answer. On the Applicant's score sheet, an individual would get major points for serving as a GMO for a year or two, thereby making them infinitely more competitive than a medical student applying for the same residency position. However, in the Army, there are considerably fewer total GMO spots (right?) and therefore fewer people coming back to reapply for the Army match. Would it be safe to assume, if this is correct, that Army residencies, as a whole, may be less competitive (or simply geared more towards 1st-time applications) in the eyes of the 4th year medical student versus in the AF or Navy?? Or, are the few GMOs coming back and only applying to all of the competitive residencies (derm, rads, ophtho, ortho) thereby making them practically unattainable to those appling for the first time??

    Sorry for diverging the topic, but this thread seemed to be most relevant.
  14. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    I don't know about using a GMO to become more competitive. However, the Army has more residency spots than the Air Force and didn't fill its recruiting goals, meaning that getting a position is less competitive to begin with.
  15. Galo

    Galo Senior Member

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    I think its imperative if you've read this far, you keep reading. The following threads have to do with GME selection for 2008. As you will see by reading the threads, the GMO/FS, possibility of not being able to do what you want, is still very much alive, and will likely not go away till the system implodes. One exceedingly important reason to not consider taking HPSP, or any other way into mil med, at least until you are trained, and can make better decisions.

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=472015

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=477240

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=477217


    The severely debilitating problems of mil med: not being able to train in what you want, when you want, and, although none of these threads address it, the quality of the training you receive, (definitively debated here, but poor in my opinion), the potential to add owed time if you finally get to train in what you want, etc, still make military medicine a huge gamble. Because of these problems, and multiple others, I still highly recommend against it.
  16. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    I finally got around to calculating the results of the Air Force match. The data that I present below only reflect information regarding fourth year medical students.

    anesthesiology 8
    pathology 4
    radiology 4
    emergency medicine 15
    family medicine 44
    general surgery 20
    internal medicine 31
    neurology 5
    neurosurgery 1
    obstetrics and gynecology 24
    ophthalmology 3
    orthopedic surgery 5
    otolaryngology 7
    pediatrics 29
    psychiatry 7
    urology 4

    in the number that we've all been waiting for... flight surgery 71
  17. slants

    slants

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    Not to be a pain in the A.. but assuming that you are counting all O-1's as fourth year students your numbers are wrong.

    ANESTHESIOLOGY = 10
    CLINICAL/ANATOMIC PATHOLOGY = 4
    DIAGNOSTIC RADIOLOGY, PG1 TRANSITIONAL = 4
    EMERGENCY MEDICINE = 15
    FAM MED PG1 ONLY- PG2-3 W/PASSING STEP 2 = 2
    FAM MED, FLIGHT MEDICINE = 3
    FAM MED = 40
    GEN SURG NEUROLOGICAL = 1
    GENERAL SURGERY = 36
    INT MED PG1 ONLY PG2/3 W/PASSING STEP 2 = 2
    INTERNAL MEDICINE = 35
    NEUROLOGY = 5
    OB/GYN = 24
    OPHTHAL, PG1 TRANSITIONAL = 3
    ORTHOPEDIC SURGERY = 5
    OTOLARYNGOLOGY = 7
    PEDIATRICS =29
    PEDS PG1 ONLY PG2/3 W/PASSING STEP 2 = 2
    PSYCHIATRY = 7
    TRANSITIONAL YEAR = 44
    UROLOGY = 2
    UROLOGY PG1 GENERAL SURGERY = 2

    These are the correct numbers. According to the 07JSGMESBSelectsAlts(17 Dec).xls
  18. 46&2

    46&2 Member

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    Actually, Deuist is more accurate in terms of general surgery numbers

    There are 20-21 people selected for categorical general surgery (of which 7 are deferred). There are ~ 17 who are General Surgery PGY-1, i.e. they will do a year of general surgery and then (very likely) become flight surgeons. They should not be lumped into the same group as those who will be doing 5-7 years of general surgery.

    Of note, there was a significant drop off in the number of ortho spots this year. Last year there were around 20.
  19. ayushman80

    ayushman80

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    I'm not sure if I should post my topic on this thread or not but I have a lot of questions that I think are related to this thread. So let me proceed.

    I was an active duty officer in the navy (submarines) for 5 years. Due to my recruiting program I have 6.5 years of active duty on my record. A lot of the complaints that you guys have are not common only to medicine. I've heard and lived through this for a long time. That is why I decided to get out of the navy. This is only a very small part of the reason that I wanted to become a doctor (my whole family is full of physicians).

    I'm thinking about appying to the Air Force HPSP program because I know its going to bring a lot of stability in my life (financially). I'll atleast have a little financial freedom when I go to med school. But I can't decide if that short term financial freedom is going to be very costly later on.[OH! I'M DEFINATELY NOT GOING ARMY OR NAVY AGAIN]

    Now that you know my background, maybe you guys can answer my questions:

    1) I'm married and planning to have a kid when I get into medical school. If
    HPSP is as scary as you say it is, then how do I finance my education
    and still pay my necessary bills? If I take loans won't I be under 250-300K of debt during those 4 years?
    2) An even better question is, will I even be allowed to take that many loans? Good thing is that I don't have any prior school debt.
    3) If I understand what I am being told here, most air force residencies are
    below standard (as compared to civilian counterparts)? If so, which
    hospitals/centers are the ones to really stay away from in the Air Force?
    4) Assuming I've given in to uncle sam and decide to do HPSP, will my prior
    6 yrs of active duty service count as a bonus point for me when picking
    residencies? Or is that only applicable for the GMO/FS active duty time?

    Appreciate any info!
  20. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    What did I say that was wrong? (P.S., make sure you know what you're talking about with regard to how GME works before you reply). A urology deferment and urology in the AF with a preliminary year in general surgery are the same thing.

    I left out a couple of the primary care spots if they are waiting for STEP II results. The rest of the numbers are accurate.
  21. Galo

    Galo Senior Member

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    Probably not the best thread to ask the question. There is a myriad of information throughout the forum about your very question. It seems just reading this thread you should have aswered alot of it for yourself.

    Quick seeminly universals here: NEVER DO IT FOR THE MONEY!!!! Even for Family practice, there is controversy if it adds up. The crap you experienced will invariably be worse, and now not only does it affect you, but the patients you are trying to treat!!. Do you want to be a flight surgeon/GMO?? You can see from this thread that it is a very significant possibility. GME is scary, and you will have little to no choice of where you train, or what you train in. While that may be an overgeneralization, you get the point.

    Take out the loans, be near poor for a while, but in the end you will be much better off financially, educationally, and most important, sane.
  22. SF49ers Fan

    SF49ers Fan Too old for this

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    250-300 thousand sounds like a lot of money but you will make enough money later on to pay it back. You don't have to take the scholarship for the money, as previously stated in this thread, because the aspects of the military that you did not like will still be there. Whether you take the schoarship or not you will still have to live differently than you did while you were in the military. The HPSP doesn't give you more money to pay bills. The stipend counts towards the amount of total money that you are allowed to recieve from loans, scholarships, etc.(every school should have a different amount). It only means that you will have less to pay back. For instance, if your school allows you to borrow $50,000 per semester (you could independently borrow more from different places but usually at a much higher interest rate) your covered tuition and stipend could come to $46,000. You then have the option of borrowing the $4,000 difference using subsidized stafford. Basically, it means that unless your wife works, whether you take the scholorship or not, you are still stuck living on about $2,000 a month just like any other student.
  23. slants

    slants

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    Sorry. I didn't know you took things so personal. It just seemed weird to me that I could copy and paste the numbers right out of the excel sheet, and some of them ended up different than what you posted. Wouldn't that make them wrong? Also, you had 71 FS positions. Where did those come from?
  24. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    Look at every O1 who is scheduled to start residency in 2008 and finish in 2009. Those people are getting only an internship. Unless they re-apply next year and can match, they'll be forced into GMO/FS.
  25. slants

    slants

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    Ok, so then the question is, how many people match after their intern year?
  26. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    Last year, no one was allowed to re-apply for the Match after internship. They were all forced into GMO/FS in the Air Force. For other years without such restrictions the Air Force does not release official stats. The closest you can get is to look at the O3's. They'll be young officers, usually GMO's. Unfortunately, that data doesn't tell you who didn't match after internship.
  27. AFmedic89

    AFmedic89

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    They did increase OPERATIONAL Flight Surgeon's in 2006 due to shortfalls. However there is a difference between Operational Flight Surgeons and entry-level flight surgeons. For FY 08 Flight surgeons aren't as highly needed so you HPSP folks will be safe for a few years. Bottom line kids, the medical system is jacked up whether your in the military or a civilian. I've been in the Air Force Healthcare system for 19 years and i've seen my share of licensed morons that shouldn't be allowed to wear the medical badge. But you know what, those same morons are in the civilian healthcare system too. My career hasn't always been peaches and cream but it's been a great ride and i am proud to have been associated with AF Medicine. If you want to work for the man that says you have 2.5 minutes per patient per 8 hour day to make us this much money per year then be a civilian doctor and enjoy your practice. If you want to travel, proudly wear the uniform and say i was part of something bigger then the military could be your place. If you dont' have what it takes don't join, if you think you might then call a recruiter and get some information. Just make sure they can prove what they tell you in writing.
    Good luck to all of you out there. Thanks for letting me vent a bit.
  28. sethco

    sethco Senior Member

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    I know I am probably going to regret this, but...

    1) What does your 19 years of Air Force Medicine consist of? In particular, what is your job title, what department, and what kind of MTF?

    2) Where did you hear the bit about "For FY 08 Flight surgeons aren't as highly needed so you HPSP folks will be safe for a few years"? They have been saying this for years, yet nothing that would support the above statement. In fact, it has been just the opposite trend. If you haven't realized it by now, OIF and OEF are not going away. The need for operational docs has never been greater and, to state the obvious, flight surgeons are the most mobile doctors in the Air Force. We will be here for a very long time, no matter who is in the white house or what they promise during campaigning. If you don't believe me that is fine, just come back on this site in July/August when the "forecast" for the JSGME comes out and prove me wrong. Until then, quit blowing smoke up everybody's ***

    As an aside, I will now be referring flight surgeons by their more popular job title: Human Weapons Expert (Insert War Cry here) :cool:
  29. rettachica

    rettachica

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    I applied for a AF HPSP scholarship just on a whim since I will be attending medical school this August and I was offered the scholarship. I have the next two weeks to look over the contract and think things over before committing and so I came on to this forum to get some feedback. I was wondering if you could give me any insight. Did you do the AFHPSP? And in your above statement, is this what is really happening? as i have no intentions on being a surgeon or a family practice physician. There is a portion in the contract that mentions if you do not get a residency match your first year you go into the PGY- 1 year at a military hospital and then reapply for residency but the AF does not guarentee placement. When I went over with the recruiter this section of the contract, he said its only if you don't get a residency in the AF or in the civilian sector. Is this true? Since it comes across in your above post that if you don't get a residency, you become a flight doc and then they make you do your ADO and your residency is basically held to the wayside until you are done with your commitment. If that is the case, I am not doing the HPSP. If you could give me insight I would greatly appreciate it.
  30. 46&2

    46&2 Member

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    There is always the possibility you will not match and have to become a flight surgeon for at least 2, maybe 3 years before reapplying to residency. A flight surgeon is not a surgeon in the usual sense; the term surgeon is a holdover from the old Army days when every military physician was called a surgeon. Flight surgeons are more like family physicians for pilots.

    What your recruiter is saying is not totally correct: the AF first has to let you apply to emergency medicine. You could be well qualified and be accepted for a civilian EM residency, but that doesn't matter if the AF has enough applicants to fill their EM slots. EM is a competitive field in military medicine, so there is a decent chance you would have to be a flight surgeon first.

    Then there's the whole issue if the AF makes you train in a military or not. For EM, there aren't that many civilian deferrments, so you'd likely have to train in San Antonio or Wright Patterson. Whether that's beneficial or not is a different discussion.

    If you join the AF, you better be ready to accept being a flight surgeon as well. It's a part of the contract.
  31. sethco

    sethco Senior Member

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    It would be nice if there was more clear language in the contract stating this though. Wonder how many people would still sign the contract if they knew this?
  32. BomberDoc

    BomberDoc ex-BomberDoc

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    Only the guy who thought operating in the back of an aircraft at 30,000 ft would be cool.

    But where do you find Flight Anesthesiologists???

    OK, this is a joke people. Those of us doing this s#itty job know that flight surgery has absolutely ZERO to do with surgery. However, recruiters continue to tell people that this is exactly what you will be doing and how exciting it will be. I hope they choke on some of the bulls#it that comes out of their mouths.
  33. Founder

    Founder

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    I never understood why they called it flight surgery if there is no surgery involved.

    When I first heard of a flight surgeon back a long time ago I thought they got to be pilots, doctors, and surgeons. Then I learned that they didn't really do that. But this was a long time before I decided to go to medical school, so meh.

    Hopefully the Navy will be reducing the GMO tours in 4 years.
  34. elderjack21

    elderjack21

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    I can only guess that the term stems from Battalion Surgeon which has been used at least since WWI in the Marines and Army. When the air force broke off from the army, they probably just named it flight surgeon cause it made sense...based on history.
  35. MaximusD

    MaximusD Anatomically Incorrect

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    "retta" you still have yet to send me the copy of your contract.

    Sounds like you're still wavering on this whole AF obligation thing. Remember to take everything on here with a grain of salt AND also realize that the civilian sector is no where near perfect. With that said, if you are concerned about a loss of freedom in the military with respect to your career options, then milmed is probably not the choice for you. Remember, you can always do FAP.
  36. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    The Air Force has posted its application for GME today. The results of the IFB are also available.
  37. HumptyDumptyMil

    HumptyDumptyMil Almost done...

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    Anyone know if there are still forcing students into flight surgery if they do not match into residency?
  38. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    If you don't match this year, you'll have one more chance to apply for residency during your PGY-1. If you don't match a second time, then you become a flight surgeon.
  39. Galo

    Galo Senior Member

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    Periodically a thread appears that I think should be around for detailed evaluation by prospective HPSP/mil med aspirants:

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=542155

    Though by no means a reality at this point, this clearly point to the current thinking that is happening a leadership (an oxymoron), levels regarding the future of GME in the military. BEWARE.
  40. atomi

    atomi Member

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    Why does everybody think being a flight surgeon is horrible? It sounds pretty awesome to me.
  41. NavyFlightDoc

    NavyFlightDoc Missing the OR

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    Unless I am mistaken, being an AF flight surgeon means being a general medical officer for aviators, and that's about it. So that means you are an undertrained (sorry, it's true, intern year just doesn't cut it for a private practice general practicioner, especially a gen surg internship which is what many of the FS's had) and undersupported entity, working in a job where you don't get much in the way of positive feedback.

    In the Navy, we get to fly some, as in no crap given the controls and steer the aircraft, in a variety of platforms. My understanding is that AF FS's don't get to do that. It doesn't make the whole thing perfect, but I think it is slightly better.

    My biased opinion of course.
  42. eagledriver

    eagledriver

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    Flight Surgeons in the AF do get to fly some - but it depends on what aircraft you're flying in. If you're assigned to a fighter squadron with a back seat, you'll can probably take the stick on every flight. Just ask the pilot.
  43. kushdog1

    kushdog1

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    IM USAF only 38 spots with additional 10 differed. Any takers? So, I know where I stand.
  44. deuist

    deuist Stealthfully Sarcastic Lifetime Donor

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    Physician Air Force SDN 10+ Year Member
    Last year the Air Force didn't fill all of its IM spots. I think you'll be fine.
  45. tacodaveo

    tacodaveo

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    this is great
  46. soexcited87

    soexcited87

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    Pre-Medical
    Why aren't medical students allowed to apply for dermatology? How?
  47. soexcited87

    soexcited87

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    Hi, I am considering doing HPSP. Can you tell me where you were stationed during active duty? Did you choose where you were stationed? I was told that you put your choices down on a sheet, and then they put you where you want. Is this true?
  48. sethco

    sethco Senior Member

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    Changed that for you ;)
  49. kushdog1

    kushdog1

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    Thanks. I did match.:)
  50. exafdoc

    exafdoc

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    Jan 30, 2010
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    There are statistics although I do not have them. Be aware that the statistics provided are not entirely a truthful representation of the facts. I was in the 2003 match and was granted my "1st choice" of radiology. However, radiology was really my second choice; I wanted to go into dermatology. The AF would not allow me to apply for derm, so radiology then became my "1st choice". So I am part of the false and inflated statistic regarding those who are granted their desired residency.

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