After the merger Part 2

[PathDoctor]

Former AOA dermatology program

Residents | Graduate Medical Education | Broward Health

gme.browardhealth.org

Another former AOA dermatology program

Our Dermatology Residents | OhioHealth Riverside Methodist Hospital

Meet the dedicated dermatology residents at OhioHealth Riverside Methodist Hospital who are training to be tomorrow's healthcare leaders.

www.ohiohealth.com

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[BorntobeDO?]

You know I am kind of looking forward to your new threads Dr dermpath. We don't have nearly enough trouble here. Way too much sunshine.
Life is about balance, you know?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Was it broward that used to only pay 20k a year and required the residents to do FM first?

I know it was one of ours in south florida.

 

[PathDoctor]

Was it broward that used to only pay 20k a year and required the residents to do FM first?

I know it was one of ours in south florida.

I do not know. I would not be surprised it you are right about the 20K.

You know I am kind of looking forward to your new threads Dr dermpath. We don't have nearly enough trouble here. Way too much sunshine.
Life is about balance, you know?

Do not shortchange me. I am boarded in hemepath (and a flow cytometry aficionado)..

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I do not know. I would not be surprised it you are right about the 20K.


Do not shortchange me. I am boarded in hemepath.

I like how they only have 2 people in the 3rd year, in Derm when there are 3 in every other. Nothing suspicious about that at all right...

I love the dig at dermpath, lol, you dual boarded? I hear thats all the rage now.

 

[PathDoctor]

You know I am kind of looking forward to your new threads Dr dermpath. We don't have nearly enough trouble here. Way too much sunshine.
Life is about balance, you know?

I like how they only have 2 people in the 3rd year, in Derm when there are 3 in every other. Nothing suspicious about that at all right...

Speculation: Resident dropped out or was terminated from program.

 

[PathDoctor]

I like how they only have 2 people in the 3rd year, in Derm when there are 3 in every other. Nothing suspicious about that at all right...

I love the dig at dermpath, lol, you dual boarded? I hear thats all the rage now.

Not yet. It is the rage. Taking my dermpath boards September 2020.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Yes, DOs will be relegated to the primary care specialties post merger. Just my hunch. I hope I am wrong, but we will see in the years to come

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I do not know. I would not be surprised it you are right about the 20K.


Do not shortchange me. I am boarded in hemepath (and a flow cytometry aficionado)..

Osteopathic Dermatology Residency

There seems to be quite a bit of conflicting information out there regarding applying for a D.O. dermatology residency. Does it differ from allopathic programs in that you first do an internship then apply afterward for dermatology residency? Or is it like M.D. programs in which you...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Okay broward definately used to require the FM residency first. I am pretty sure they used to only pay 20k as well. Probably not a great program.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes, DOs will be relegated to the primary care specialties post merger. Just my hunch. I hope I am wrong, but we will see in the years to come

Doubtful, but it will be harder to specialize than before

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This thing is a mess and as I understand it, every program is different. I can only speak of a couple of places, but the problem seems to come from a source of funding. In the Allo world all the derm spots are funded just like any other spot; you get X amount of funding for each spot for Y number of years. The program gets a cut and the resident gets a salary and a guarantee that they will have a place to learn for the next few years. In the DO world not all programs are structured like this. As an example, Broward General in FL will only accept people who have already completed a residency in a primary care field (FM,IM), and you only get a very small salary (like 15k a year or something). However, the Naples program accepts people after an intern year only. Also, I don't think that any DO Derm program goes through the match, thus its up to you to contact the programs directly to apply.

It seems that the only way to really find anything out is to contact the programs directly. You can find them on Osteopathic Opportunities.

Ah I found it. Yep broward used to suck. Seems likely it still does. Fun reading about the bad ol days of DO derm and the nonsense our programs used to pull.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Doubtful, but it will be harder to specialize than before

Ahh mad jack, it’s nice to hear from you. I have seen you in a while. I hope all is well. Time will tell if there is an onslaught. I hope to make it to specialty just before the door closes!

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Ahh mad jack, it’s nice to hear from you. I have seen you in a while. I hope all is well. Time will tell if there is an onslaught. I hope to make it to specialty just before the door closes!

Me too, I have the right number of interviews so we will see.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Doubtful, but it will be harder to specialize than before

You feeling good about your residency now that you been in it awhile?

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Me too, I have the right number of interviews so we will see.

For family or are you gunnin for something else?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

For family or are you gunnin for something else?

I did apply to family as a backup, but I have my eyes on a nonsurgical specialty. I would be surprised if I didnt match it at this point, but I still feel good about my backups, they are all good programs in places I like. And RPC-COM is always awaiting a visionary leader.

 

[Mad Jack]

You feeling good about your residency now that you been in it awhile?

As good as anyone in residency I suppose

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Not yet. It is the rage. Taking my dermpath boards September 2020.

I'm sure you will kill it. Then you need to go make some money. Thats too many years of below market labor.

 

[Epilepsy365]

I did apply to family as a backup, but I have my eyes on a nonsurgical specialty. I would be surprised if I didnt match it at this point, but I still feel good about my backups, they are all good programs in places I like. And RPC-COM is always awaiting a visionary leader.

You're going into Psych. No need to hide it. There are plenty of potential sdn customers here. Go get your name out and build that future patient network.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

You're going into Psych. No need to hide it. There are plenty of potential sdn customers here. Go get your name out and build that future patient network.

Stop hurting my street cred, everyone knows its rural primary care or bust for me.

 

[Goro]

Doubtful, but it will be harder to specialize than before

Probably more like slightly harder. There were only some 3000 AOA residencies to begin with, so we're talking about a handful of the uber-specialties. DO are matching into specialty historic ACGME residencies now at what seems to be a greater rate (at least for my kids).

It's not like the AOA's mission to produce more Primary Care docs is a state secret, y'know.

 

[Mad Jack]

Probably more like slightly harder. There were only some 3000 AOA residencies to begin with, so we're talking about a handful of the uber-specialties. DO are matching into specialty historic ACGME residencies now at what seems to be a greater rate (at least for my kids).

It's not like the AOA's mission to produce more Primary Care docs is a state secret, y'know.

Ah but it used to be that there were far fewer DO students to fill those residencies, so as a percentage match rates into things like ortho were much higher. DO numbers exploding limited opportunities far more than the match merger did, and the match merger was just the final nail in the coffin for anyone that isn't a superstar

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Yes, DOs will be relegated to the primary care specialties post merger. Just my hunch. I hope I am wrong, but we will see in the years to come

Blows my mind people think this. Literally every year less and less DO have entered primary care fields. Not more. The merger won’t change that. More and more DOs enter fields like EM, gas, Rads, gen surg In the MD match. The merger won’t change that. What will change is the loss of spots in fields like NS, Derm, ortho. But these are top students going for those spots. They aren’t going to go Fam med bc there’s less spots. They will still go for less competitive non PC stuff like gen surg or gas etc.

 

[AlteredScale]

Blows my mind people think this. Literally every year less and less DO have entered primary care fields. Not more. The merger won’t change that. More and more DOs enter fields like EM, gas, Rads, gen surg In the MD match. The merger won’t change that. What will change is the loss of spots in fields like NS, Derm, ortho. But these are top students going for those spots. They aren’t going to go Fam med bc there’s less spots. They will still go for less competitive non PC stuff like gen surg or gas etc.

I'm being lazy: What data show that there have been a smaller number of DO graduates to have entered a primary care specialty over the past few years? And are the proportions between grads enter non-PC and PC the same or different?

I'm going to have to say that with the ever-growing number of DO medical schools developing, that there will be a larger amount of DO students entering the SOAP/scramble stage. Of which, most will fill whatever is available which by history, has been largely TRI's and PC specialties in very undesirable locations.

It is very hard to predict what's going to happen post-merger since it just started and every program has a lot of freedom in choosing how to screen applicants. I doubt most ACGME PD's even blinked when the merger occurred. If they don't want DO's in their programs, that's still going to happen post merger. But now, AOA PD's get even more applications from the USMD side and surprise surprise, I've seen USMDs now interviewing at places that were originally AOA that received ACGME accreditation.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I'm being lazy: What data show that there have been a smaller number of DO graduates to have entered a primary care specialty over the past few years? And are the proportions between grads enter non-PC and PC the same or different?

I'm going to have to say that with the ever-growing number of DO medical schools developing, that there will be a larger amount of DO students entering the SOAP/scramble stage. Of which, most will fill whatever is available which by history, has been largely TRI's and PC specialties in very undesirable locations.

It is very hard to predict what's going to happen post-merger since it just started and every program has a lot of freedom in choosing how to screen applicants. I doubt most ACGME PD's even blinked when the merger occurred. If they don't want DO's in their programs, that's still going to happen post merger. But now, AOA PD's get even more applications from the USMD side and surprise surprise, I've seen USMDs now interviewing at places that were originally AOA that received ACGME accreditation.

The merger is a 2 way street. Just like MDs are matching into old AOA programs, more DOs are also matching into non-old-AOA programs more than ever before as well. It balances itself out. Except off course the avalanche of new grads coming out in the near future. I think in the next few years we might also see a significant increase in the number of residency programs, but I guess we'll see.

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[AlteredScale]

The merger is a 2 way street. Just like MDs are matching into old AOA programs, more DOs are also matching into non-old-AOA programs more than ever before as well. It balances itself out. Except off course the avalanche of new grads coming out in the near future. I think in the next few years we might also see a significant increase in the number of residency programs, but I guess we'll see.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

Okay so is this based on your own observations or are there actually data/statistics to show this that you can cite.

There will be an increase in the number of residency programs, but it will not be significant in the sense that the number will keep up with the number of total DO grads to come out of these new schools.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No DOs won’t be relegated to primary care. Not with some of the interview invites I’ve seen from the people I know ahead of me on the cycle right now. I’m talking types interviews where if I told you guys there would be multiple posters who would accuse me of making stuff up.

But yes it will likely get more difficult, although the merger has nothing to do with that and more to do with the explosion of DO grads.

The key is looking like an MD on paper. No I don’t just mean insane board scores, none of the people I know have insane scores, but I mean research, LORs, etc. you need a complete application.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Okay so is this based on your own observations or are there actually data/statistics to show this that you can cite.

There will be an increase in the number of residency programs, but it will not be significant in the sense that the number will keep up with the number of total DO grads to come out of these new schools.

The first part is based solely on numbers. More/all DOs applying to ACGME residency programs means more will eventually match. Plus if DOs are being displaced from old AOA programs that should decrease the match rate of DOs, and we all know that wasn't true last cycle.

The second part is based on this: S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019
There's lots of support behind this than ever before (AOA, AMA, lots of medical organizations/associations, plus bipartisan proposal), so I think we might see something done about it in a few years. It might not be exactly this, but something at least.

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[AlteredScale]

The first part is based solely on numbers. More/all DOs applying to ACGME residency programs means more will eventually match. Plus if DOs are being displaced from old AOA programs that should decrease the match rate of DOs, and we all know that wasn't true last cycle.

The second part is based on this: S.348 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2019
There's lots of support behind this than ever before (AOA, AMA, lots of medical organizations/associations, plus bipartisan proposal), so I think we might see something done about it in a few years. It might not be exactly this, but something at least.

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile

The match rate of DO's hasn't changed much over the past few years and in fact went up the most recent year. But can anything really come from this data point? Over the past 3-4 years we have seen the majority of AOA programs enter the ACGME residency system, of which, the majority are still focused on keeping their roster mainly DO. So I think what we are seeing is an artificial "uptick" of match rate with graduates from DO schools because the NRMP collects data from ACGME.

This bill sounds great and hopefully it comes into play. As of right now, the bill has been introduced and referred to the committee of finance in February. I know nothing in the way of government so approx how long it will take for this to get approved is beyond me. Looks like the goal is to allow for the application period to increase hospital residency slots is from 2021-2025 (at which time, there will be hundreds more DO students looking to apply for residency).

@aProgDirector if this bill above were to be approved, how long and how realistic would it be to increase number of residency slots across the board?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This same bill has been introduced every year, and every year it dies in committee. The bill doesn't mention how any of this will be paid for. Plus we have hospitals closing now -- I worry that financially strapped hospitals might see this as a Hail Mary funding stream, and that won't end well for anyone.

Hard to tell how quickly it could happen. Starting new programs takes some time. Increasing the size of a current program is relatively quick, but many programs might be at a "good size" and happy with their footprint. Plus, there's a chance that some programs that are over their cap will get slots and this is just additional cost to the gov't -- they fill the same positions, they just get paid now for it.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

No DOs won’t be relegated to primary care. Not with some of the interview invites I’ve seen from the people I know ahead of me on the cycle right now. I’m talking types interviews where if I told you guys there would be multiple posters who would accuse me of making stuff up.

But yes it will likely get more difficult, although the merger has nothing to do with that and more to do with the explosion of DO grads.

The key is looking like an MD on paper. No I don’t just mean insane board scores, none of the people I know have insane scores, but I mean research, LORs, etc. you need a complete application.

With the merger many AOA specialty programs did not get accreditation. There are fewer DO friendly optho/ent/NS /etc. it will be harder for DOs to enter these programs moving forward. In my opinion

 

[dangEras]

Looks good to me. Best person for the job.

It was always shady and concerning that one could bomb board exams (usmle), hide it, go to an osteopathic program far from meeting bare minimum acgme standards, take and pass osteopathic specialty boards (huge joke compared to ABMS exams) and come out a licensed "board certified" physician.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

With the merger many AOA specialty programs did not get accreditation. There are fewer DO friendly optho/ent/NS /etc. it will be harder for DOs to enter these programs moving forward. In my opinion

Actually most programs did get accreditation. NS and Ophtho yes were hit hard, 35/41 ortho programs have made it so far, 12/15 ENT with one more likely to get it so the number of spots isn't changing much. The vast majority of general surgery programs made it, I believe it was 43/51 with the ones not making it being the small programs that were extremely weak to begin with (I.e. the types of places I would personally never want to train).

 

[You shall know the Truth]

Actually most programs did get accreditation. NS and Ophtho yes were hit hard, 35/41 ortho programs have made it so far, 12/15 ENT with one more likely to get it so the number of spots isn't changing much. The vast majority of general surgery programs made it, I believe it was 43/51 with the ones not making it being the small programs that were extremely weak to begin with (I.e. the types of places I would personally never want to train).

I agree with you, but still in a small friend and decrease in specialties will make it hard to match as DO

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I agree with you, but still in a small friend and decrease in specialties will make it hard to match as DO

The overall number of people going into these fields will increase, and this has already been documented. The match rates will decrease because of the influx of new DO grads.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

Yes, DOs will be relegated to the primary care specialties post merger. Just my hunch. I hope I am wrong, but we will see in the years to come

This, but IMGs. Not DOs. At least that's what the trends are the 2016-2019.

 

[deleted1020563]

This, but IMGs. Not DOs. At least that's what the trends are the 2016-2019.

Why not both?

 

[AlteredScale]

This, but IMGs. Not DOs. At least that's what the trends are the 2016-2019.

Wheres the data?

 

[hallowmann]

The overall number of people going into these fields will increase, and this has already been documented. The match rates will decrease because of the influx of new DO grads.

This has been documented. I did the math some time ago for the 2019 match. I'll do it again if I have time in 2020, and that'll be the real test.

 

[Goro]

The overall number of people going into these fields will increase, and this has already been documented. The match rates will decrease because of the influx of new DO grads.

Maybe at first, but then the sanctions from COCA will begin. I was chatting with one my Deans about this and he was adamant that COCA takes a dim view of grads not being able to get jobs, or a high attrition rate.

So a weak new school, like say, ICOM or BCOM, may have its class sizes cut in response. Analogous to something in the in the Pharmacy world,:a friend on mine on Faculty at a Pharm school told me that Touro-NY COP had to stop admitting students for 1-2 years until they cleaned their act up.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Maybe at first, but then the sanctions from COCA will begin. I was chatting with one my Deans about this and he was adamant that COCA takes a dim view of grads not being able to get jobs, or a high attrition rate.

So a weak new school, like say, ICOM or BCOM, may have its class sizes cut in response. Analogous to something in the in the Pharmacy world,:a friend on mine on Faculty at a Pharm school told me that Touro-NY COP had to stop admitting students for 1-2 years until they cleaned their act up.

If they really cared they would cut the opening class sizes down to 50 student instead of 150.

I keep hearing how COCA/NBOME/AOA “really do care” and then I see literally zero actual evidence of that. The only evidence I’ve ever seen is that they are completely delusional at best, or outright criminals at worst.

 

[sab3156]

If they really cared they would cut the opening class sizes down to 50 student instead of 150.

I keep hearing how COCA/NBOME/AOA “really do care” and then I see literally zero actual evidence of that. The only evidence I’ve ever seen is that they are completely delusional at best, or outright criminals at worst.

Total disregard for their profession, opening schools left and right with no purpose and laughable limits to class size, not caring about the impact on their students regarding anything they do, begging people to keep taking the AOA board specialty certification exams when they should disappear and no longer be a thing, etc. Smells like a money laundering organization.

So I am going to go with... outright criminals.

 

[Sephirakra]

Total disregard for their profession, opening schools left and right with no purpose and laughable limits to class size, not caring about the impact on their students regarding anything they do, begging people to keep taking the AOA board specialty certification exams when they should disappear and no longer be a thing, etc. Smells like a money laundering organization.

So I am going to go with... outright criminals.

It's more racketeering than money laundering.

 

[Goro]

Can you elaborate what sanctions Nova has received over their grads who did not get residency placements?
As as I know the only response was that COCA gave them approval to open a new campus in Clearwater last summer.

View attachment 287526

Residency Match Data and COMLEX Level 3 Board Scores | NSU COM

NSU students are highly competitive in American Osteopathic Association (AOA), Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) and military residency programs.

osteopathic.nova.edu

It's not a one year trigger, from what I understand. I agree the numbers suck and it's one of the reasons I have Nova on my Bad Boy list.

 

[Goro]

If they really cared they would cut the opening class sizes down to 50 student instead of 150.

I keep hearing how COCA/NBOME/AOA “really do care” and then I see literally zero actual evidence of that. The only evidence I’ve ever seen is that they are completely delusional at best, or outright criminals at worst.

I never said that they weren't delusional, Grey!

 

[Wjldenver]

Based upon what I've seen, a number of DO School deans just view their students as revenue generating units. Their primary goal is to get butts in seats. Sure, they will try to recruit the best class possible, but some weaker students fill those seats as well. Those are probably the students which did not match at Nova (with multiple red flags).


But with the AOA/COCA hellbent to increase the number of DO schools and students nationwide, how bad will it get? Here is an illustrative example from the pharmacy school world. The University of Colorado School of Pharmacy is ranked #22 in the nation but now they (and many other pharmacy schools) do not require the PCAT test for admission any more. And on top of that, Colorado allows for virtual interviews, and if you’re nice enough to interview in person, they will subsidize a portion of your interviewing expenses.

After the AOA/COCA gets a DO school on every corner, then it will be all about butts in seats, and who cares about academic integrity.

 

[Ho0v-man]

It's not a one year trigger, from what I understand. I agree the numbers suck and it's one of the reasons I have Nova on my Bad Boy list.

So like what do they need? Five years of consecutive failures before coca steps in to consider slapping a wrist? Heck, in that time ten more schools could open at this rate! Coca doesn’t give a crap.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If they really cared they would cut the opening class sizes down to 50 student instead of 150.

I keep hearing how COCA/NBOME/AOA “really do care” and then I see literally zero actual evidence of that. The only evidence I’ve ever seen is that they are completely delusional at best, or outright criminals at worst.

One mans delusions is another mans vision. Or as Jesse Eisenberg put it so eloquently in batman vs superman when called psychotic: "that is a three sylable word for any thought too big for little minds." Us mere proletariats cannot possibly understand the master planning of the COCA bourgeois.

 

[alprazoslam]

Good lord my school just opened up a new site in Knoxville last fall and they are literally begging current sites to take more students. They can barely host enough sites for current class of 245 then they add 125 more. Shame on LMU DCOM.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Good lord my school just opened up a new site in Knoxville last fall and they are literally begging current sites to take more students. They can barely host enough sites for current class of 245 then they add 125 more. Shame on LMU DCOM.

aLL Do SChoOLs ArE THe sAmE