Airway: ENT or Gas?

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anes_asmaj

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I was over in the surgery forums and they posted that ENT's are the "airway experts" in the hospital. Do you agree with that? I always thought that you guys were the ones to call when there was a difficult airway.

http://gasforums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=450299

An otolaryngologist is THE airway specialist in the hospital. The ENT is at least as good at intubating as is the anesthesiologist--and often better. He is far better with surgical airways than is the general surgeon or the emergency physician. He is better at instrumenting the airway than the pulmonologist as well.

No one should be more adept at the airway in your hospital other than maybe another ENT.

You can intubate a 500lb heffer with retrognathia and a malampati IV oral airway, slash trach an epiglottitis in less than 45 seconds, bronch an 18 month old and remove the pistachio they aspirated within a minute or two if needed when your an ENT.

You are the airway expert. All else pales in comparison.

At least 8 times in my 3 years since residency I have been asked to be in the OR when anesthesia was intubating a difficult patient. Usually a severely fat dude with OSA. They want me there to do the trach if they can't get in. Of those 8 times, I've performed the intubation after anesthesia failed 4 times. Never have I had to do a slash trach on these patients.

Anesthesiologists are trained to evaluate the airway differently than ENT's. Whereas I almost always see them put the pt's head on a pillow, I never do. I'll even sometimes put a shoulder roll under the big ones. For the airway, I'm not interested in comfort, I'm interested in safety. I'm interested in creating as straight of a line from the mouth to the carina as I can. Anesthesia is trained to create a straight line from the mouth to the glottis--they don't use rigid bronchs and don't have a need for the severe positioning we do.

Anyway, that's just one example of the difference. Another would be fiberoptic intubation. At least 3 times, anesthesia has failed to perform a transnasal fiberoptic intubation while I was in the room. In each case they stood above the patient's head which creates an unusual curve in the scope making it harder to maneuver. I put the patient in a sitting position, scope them from in front like we do in the clinic, and have yet to fail placing a fiberoptically guided nasal intubation this way. Simple stuff, but we just have more experience and more refined technique.

Another example, I was called for a 2yo kid who started to desaturate in the OR while getting a revision circumcision. When I arrived in the OR, his sats had been in the 60's for 3 1/2 minutes and there were 3 anesthesiologists in the room. When they failed to improve the airway, I simply took the direct laryngoscope and saw that the tube was in the esophagus. I reintubated, pt did fine. That was a silly case where panic on the anesthesiologist part prevented them from running through an appropriate algorithm. They kept pumping in albuterol for bronchospasm because they swore that they heard breath sounds and wheezes with them, but never took the time to just look at positioning. That should have been one of the first 3 things they did. Also, they didn't trust the CO2 monitor which was reporting no CO2 return (another failure on their part).

Next case, called to the OR to help with a patient who was supposed to get a lap chole. The anesthesia resident was having a tough time masking the patient and like a genius decided to push succ (for presumed larygnospasm) instead of considering that he may just be a big ole fatty who was obstructing because of his hypopharynx. Well, when the succ got pushed, the patient crumped. Sats went to the 30's. Pt was blue. That's when I got called in. I yelled for a trach set. The general surgeon said no. He wasn't going to let this patient get trach'd. He instead wanted to do a retrograde intubation. He tried, but never was able to find the wire after inserting a percutaneous angiocath into the upper trachea (or that's where he thought it was). He started to do the trach, but actually took time to tie of superficial vessels while the pt cont to sat in the 30's and was now starting to significantly brady. I pushed him out of the way and did an emergency trach. Pt's airway responded, but neurologically he took a hit. The general surgeon was pissed initially but admitted later he was wrong.

Next one. Homeless guy seen eating a hoagie on the side of the road. Witnessed aspiration and choking. EMT's were driving by at that very moment. Pulled over and tried heimlich, no success. Pt went LOC and they started CPR but did not get good air movement. EMT's then intubated him--in effect cramming a piece of meat into a saddle obstruction of B primary bronchi. Pt transferred to level I ED only 5 minutes away. My jr resident was in ER and heard the call come in. He immediately called me in even before the pt arrived. I lived 8 min away when breaking laws to get there fast. Which I did. Surgery resident in charge at ED wouldn't let my jr resident do an emergency bronch. Instead he wanted to pass a fogarty cath past the meat, inflate, and then pull it back. Didn't work obviously. When I arrived jr resident had a bronch in the airway and was just pulling bits out of the mass of shredded beef. I arrived, grabbed the bronch and looked with a scope. It was clear that the mass was too big and friable to remove with the bronch. I pulled the bronch out. Did a DL and blindly stuck alligators down the airway using only tactile feedback. I felt the meat, clamped the jaws down, and pulled out an 8cm hunk of shredded beef. Pt was down too long, however, support was withdrawn 72hrs later.

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Really

I guess i dont rememeber those ENT residents and attendings in the trauma room for the real difficult airways at 2 am.... oh thats right, thats because they are never there.
 
i am not nor am i going to discount the expertise of the ent docs and/or omfs docs in dealing in airway management.
 
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One of the presumed ENTs brings up something that I've been a bit curious about of late. Specifically, the comment re simply using a shoulder roll vs the typical "ramp" of blankets that anesthesiologists use to obtain proper "sniffing" position. I understand the theory behind the sniffing position (or at least I think I do), but (at least to a newbie like me) it seems to make it a bit tougher to extend the head vs using something like a shoulder roll to ease head extension. Any thoughts?

BTW, FYI, I did come across this study that indicates no disadvantage to the sniffing position vs direct head extension and an advantage in obese/extension limited pts.
 
My greatest respect to our ENT colleagues. They have saved me more than once as a resident and as an attending.

But these were, as the previous posts imply, situations where a difficult airway was either anticipated or sadly mishandled. In many teaching institutions it is very difficult to get an senior ENT resident/attending at night.

We have at least one anesthesia attending and three residents in house at night in the programs where I have been on faculty. There is no ENT in house on beeper because there is no residency(although the senior surgical residents are fairly good).

Again my greatest respects for ENT's. As a practical matter in our institution, however, if the anesthesiologist can't secure the airway the trach goes to the trauma surgeon in house.
 
It is extremely easy to find fault with other groups of physicians, I can name a number to really stupid things that residents and attendings have done from just about every specialty, and I have only about 1 year of post medical school training under my belt.

In response to the ENT guy, who do you want doing your intubation, the ENT resident that got lucky a few times or the anesthesiology physician that deals with airways every single day. I think the reason that ENT carries the designation in some areas as the definitive airway specialty is that they can perform a surgical airway better than any other group of surgeons. Again this is a generalization, I know a general surgeon that is pretty much the shiznet at everything, has a national/international reputation, and is probably better at performing a trach or emergent surgical airway than 99% of ENT docs.

Does this mean that all general surgeons are better at surgical airways, no . . . just one example . . . just like the ENT guy saying that he had 4 luck intubations and thus thinking that he and all ENT's are better than anesthesiology physicians at intubations.

If my airway was lost, I want a top notch anesthesiology physician over who can likely oxygenate and ventilate me in the next 90 seconds over a surgeon who will likely secure an airway in the next 5.

The reason anesthesiology responds to airway emergencies and NOT ENT even during the day when ENT is available, is that surgical airways in general will take too long in an emergency and by the time another few minutes passes the patients neurons will have likely all started apoptosis.

Anesthesiology physicians are the definitive airway experts.
 
Man, this guy is so green I can't believe it.
He must be either still a resident or in his first year of practice.
The fact that he went to such length in explaining why he is the ultimate airway champion is very funny.
And when he claims that 3 anesthesiologists were waiting for him to tell them that this was an esophageal intubation only shows that he is either lying or working with the crappiest anesthesiologists on earth!
Those young guys think of airway management always as an emergency, and they see themselves as heroes (this applies to many ER physicians as well).
They don't even have a clue that airway management is business as usual for us, we do it everyday, we manage difficult airways as well as easy ones and the fact that no one notices it is a proof that we are really good at we do.
 
Hmm... interesting. I'm sure it is hospital and person dependent, b/c I've yet to see an ENT bail out an anesthesiologist in a difficult airway, but I've seen them try and do things which made me cringe. For example, I saw an ENT attending attempt to do a rigid bronch to secure an airway on a pt who was easily mask ventilatable, promptly broke a tooth, then changed to a flexible fiberoptic intubation. What was the point of the rigid bronch, i will never know.

I was also called to the ED where I saw an ENT trying to intubate an inadequately anesthetized pt who was basically jumping off the bed with this big metal blade in his mouth.... didn't work obviously.

But I've also seen anesthesiologists who, IMHO, did really stupid things as well.

And the best person I've ever seen by far with non-invasively intubating a pt with a difficult airway (ie: flex bronch) was this one pulmonologist.

The point is that I'm sure there are ENT's who are better at laryngoscopy / fiberoptic bronchoscopy than some anesthesiologists and vice versa. To say one is "better" at managing the airway in all situations is stupid.

Regarding the sniff position: to say it's not useful is crap. Any experienced laryngoscopist will tell you that there were many times where a grade III view was seen that promptly improved to grade I by lifting the head to an adequate sniff position. And ramping the crap out of morbidly obese people helps tremendously.
 
I have done countless intubations throughout residency (as we all have) and am starting to rack up tons of fiberoptic intubations as well as LMA/Proseal insertions so I have the confidence of being an "airway expert". However, I would NEVER try a surgical airway on my own. I have never performed one and anytime it is needed I would def trust the gen surgeon or an ENT doc first. Does this make them the true "airway expert"? No disrespect to them but I dont think so. I do wish residency programs would do a better job teaching us this skill.
 
I think ENT and anesthesia for the most part have a mutual respect for each other.

I have been in many OR's where anesthesia is discussing the airway plan and they turn to me and ask, "Fah-Q, what do you think," and "You're gonna be here, right?" I take pride in the fact that despite doing thousands of more intubations/difficult airways than me, anesthesiologists still value my input and presence when things get hard. On the other hand, I've been called emergently to airway situations and the first thing I ask is, "Where's anesthesia?"

BUT, I believe that the average otolaryngologist knows much more about the airway than the average anesthesiologist. Nobody knows the anatomy, normal and abnormal, better because we operate on it frequently.

We always let the anesthesia residents try to intubate our head and neck cancer patients because it's a great "difficult airway" experience for them. But, we frequently have to intervene in one way or another: orient the picture and point out anatomical landmarks on fiberoptic intubations, adjust their positioning and/or scope of choice when doing DL's, and sometimes just plain take over because they aren't getting the job done. I have yet to be in a situation where the reverse happens (anesthesia takes over for ENT) but I realize it probably does happen elsewhere.

That being said, I would never take on a difficult airway without a good anesthesiologist being there because I value their knowledge and experience. I know that they feel better in a tight spot when I'm there.

Airway management should always be multidisciplinary and it’s too important to ascribe an “airway god” title to any one specialty.
 
LightsOut, brings up another question I have. I am not sure how advance/complicated/invasive a tracheostomy is, but why dont they teach anesthesiologist to perform trachs? Would you even what to be taught that procedure? Not sure how accurate wiki is on this one but they say EMT's also perform trachs beside surgeons, EP's, and ENT's.
 
LightsOut, brings up another question I have. I am not sure how advance/complicated/invasive a tracheostomy is, but why dont they teach anesthesiologist to perform trachs? Would you even what to be taught that procedure? Not sure how accurate wiki is on this one but they say EMT's also perform trachs beside surgeons, EP's, and ENT's.
What you need to learn is how to do an emergency percutaneous cricothyroidotomy not a tracheostomy. and that is very easy to learn, all you need to do is as many transtracheal injections as you can and once you know how to locate the cricothyroid membrane correctly you should have no problem doing a cricothyroidotomy although you probably will never need to do one with all the available airway devices and techniques today.
 
I However, I would NEVER try a surgical airway on my own. I .

umm . you better get in your mind now and be prepared to do a surgical airway on your own i need be .. consider the alternative.. a nifty ent doc can clean your mess up..
 
Man, this guy is so green I can't believe it.
He must be either still a resident or in his first year of practice.
The fact that he went to such length in explaining why he is the ultimate airway champion is very funny.
And when he claims that 3 anesthesiologists were waiting for him to tell them that this was an esophageal intubation only shows that he is either lying or working with the crappiest anesthesiologists on earth!
Those young guys think of airway management always as an emergency, and they see themselves as heroes (this applies to many ER physicians as well).
They don't even have a clue that airway management is business as usual for us, we do it everyday, we manage difficult airways as well as easy ones and the fact that no one notices it is a proof that we are really good at we do.

Yeah, the d i ck swinging contests are pretty funny......
 
This question can be answered with 2 words: WHOOOOOOO CAAAAAAAAAAARRES. Seriously, this is one of the dumbest threads ever b/c there is no singular right answer. Every medical specialty thinks they are the best at what they do, its human nature. We all take pride in our jobs and believe that no one can do it better. Different specialties overlap in some areas and thats where the debate comes in. Honestly, it doesn't matter b/c we can all mangage airways well. No lets get back to posting some of those kewl cases
 
the answer of course lies in an allied health professional, not a anesthesiologist or ENT...

the respiratory therapist :lol:
 
the answer of course lies in an allied health professional, not a anesthesiologist or ENT...

the respiratory therapist :lol:

dude please tell me you're being sarcastic.....please....
 
I have to say Who cares. Getting the airway is important but if that was all there is to anesthesia any EMT could do it. It is the manipulation of the pulmonary functions and hemodynamics and understanding pathophysiology that matters the most, Skills are great and mad skills better but anyone can learn a skill in relatively short order.
 
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