Alliant PsyD SF

[WisNeuro]

I do want to stay locally in the Bay Area and I do hope to work at Kaiser or a similar hospital in the area.

In that case a diploma mill degree will probably work. As long as you aren't one of the 26% of graduates who never get licensed or have significant trouble doing so.

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[pkg123]

Life happens. People marry. People make sacrifices for children, spouse, etc. Interests change. Opportunities arise. I'm not sure how many people are doing at 42 what they thought they would be doing at 22. So, I would back off on being so confident about this if I were you. I'm sure my California native wife never thought she would be living in the midwest, but here we are.

I see what you mean. Well, Idk I just don’t see myself ever leaving Cali. Maybe I would move to SoCal but California is home. My whole family has been here for years and idk why I would ever move from here. My bf of 5 years is from the bay and chances are we will stay here. But I get it. Things change so I will keep that in mind

 

[pkg123]

In that case a diploma mill degree will probably work. As long as you aren't one of the 26% of graduates who never get licensed or have significant trouble doing so.

Well, hopefully that’s not the case. But in your opinion, given that I want to say local, would alliant be an okay fit for me?

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, hopefully that’s not the case. But in your opinion, given that I want to say local, would alliant be an okay fit for me?

If training quality and future portability are not a concern, Alliant will work just fine.

 

[pkg123]

If training quality and future portability are not a concern, Alliant will work just fine.

Well, training quality is a concern. Portability is somewhat a concern. As long as I can work in California, I will be happy. Whether it be SoCal or NorCal. As far as education, here is where I’m hoping that personal dedication and passion will help in bettering the quality of education that each individual receives. But that may just be wishful thinking. IDK

 

[erg923]

Well, hopefully that’s not the case. But in your opinion, given that I want to say local, would alliant be an okay fit for me?

At this point, you need to admit that you are trying to get what you want to hear. Ok?

You have been provided with data that shows subpar outcomes for this program. You have been told the training is subpar and the practice patterns of many of it graduates are abhorrent from people working in this field. If this is still a place you feel comfortable asking your mom and dad to give $200,000 of their hard earned money too, I don't know what to tell you. I personally never would never have the balls to do something like that, but people are different.

 

[psych.meout]

Are you saying that those people are outliers? I would get it if I saw like one or two alliant grads but like I said over half of the clinical PsyD’s employed there were from alliant so I don’t see how your comparison makes any sense. Millionaires to PsyD’s employed at Kaiser. I don’t see it

Erg is talking about statistics. You need to be mindful about what the modal or typical outcome is for students from these programs. Yeah, you may see a good amount of the at Kaiser, but they graduate so many students that you need to consider what happens to the rest of them. You may not so lucky as to work for Kaiser. E.g., you might end up not matching to an accredited internship and not being able to work for Kaiser.
Furthermore, you don't necessarily know what things are like for these graduates at Kaiser. They might hate working there or have a terrible department head, but their educational background limits their options for escaping from it.
You should be looking to get the best training possible, not try to squeak by with the minimal effort to just get a doctorate so you have the title and don't have to move away from the Bay for a couple of years. Can you imagine telling a patient that?

 

[erg923]

Erg is talking about statistics. You need to be mindful about what the modal or typical outcome is for students from these programs. Yeah, you may see a good amount of the at Kaiser, but they graduate so many students that you need to consider what happens to the rest of them. You may not so lucky as to work for Kaiser. E.g., you might end up not matching to an accredited internship and not being able to work for Kaiser.
Furthermore, you don't necessarily know what things are like for these graduates at Kaiser. They might hate working there or have a terrible department head, but their educational background limits their options for escaping from it.
You should be looking to get the best training possible, not try to squeak by with the minimal effort to just get a doctorate so you have the title and don't have to move away from the Bay for a couple of years. Can you imagine telling a patient that?

Kaiser has multiple lawsuits against them regarding their mental health care. And they have a reputation as a workhouse/sweatshop, so I'm not sure what the appeal is.

 

[pkg123]

Kaiser has multiple lawsuits against them regarding their mental health care. And they have a reputation as a workhouse/sweatshop, so I'm not sure what the appeal is.

Ok. Thanks for the info! I will think about this all when making my decision

 

[pkg123]

Erg is talking about statistics. You need to be mindful about what the modal or typical outcome is for students from these programs. Yeah, you may see a good amount of the at Kaiser, but they graduate so many students that you need to consider what happens to the rest of them. You may not so lucky as to work for Kaiser. E.g., you might end up not matching to an accredited internship and not being able to work for Kaiser.
Furthermore, you don't necessarily know what things are like for these graduates at Kaiser. They might hate working there or have a terrible department head, but their educational background limits their options for escaping from it.
You should be looking to get the best training possible, not try to squeak by with the minimal effort to just get a doctorate so you have the title and don't have to move away from the Bay for a couple of years. Can you imagine telling a patient that?

Thanks for clarifying the earlier point. I will use this to make an Informed decision

 

[erg923]

here is where I’m hoping that personal dedication and passion will help in bettering the quality of education that each individual receives. But that may just be wishful thinking. IDK

Occupy Lake Wobegon

"The Lake Wobegon effect is a natural tendency to overestimate one’s capabilities and see oneself as better than others. Research psychologists refer to this tendency as self-enhancement bias and have found evidence for its existence in many domains. Most of us think we’re funnier, smarter, warmer, more honest, or more conscientious than we really are."

 

[Sanman]

I think others have said most of what was important. I would add this,

Close your eyes and imagine you run a hospital. You need to hire two psychologists. You're in CA, so no shortage of people that want to live in nice weather. You get 20-30 applications for those 2 positions (including from people at Palo alto and others schools you have not gotten into and perhaps more prestigious training sites). Comparing your CV to others would you hire you coming out of alliant?

No picture you have two masters level positions to hire for and you have sdsu or Cal state grads to hire. Would you hire you someone like you with a reputable masters degree?

No one can give you a definite answer as to whether you will accomplish what you want in life. We can only speculate about odds. Which path do you think gets you the better odds?

 

[MCParent]

Well I really want to have a doctoral degree. My family is really well educated and all have doctoral degrees so I would like the same for myself. Besides that, The pay is higher for a PsyD than at the masters level. And my parents are paying for my education so I don’t see why I should stop at the masters level when they are willing to pay for school to help me become a doctor or psychology. At wright they give you a masters wile pursuing the PsyD which is exactly what I’m looking for.

Here's an analogy: If you wanted to be an engineer doing engineer things, you would probably do fine with even a bachelors. Maybe a masters. There would be zero reason to get a PhD, because PhDs in engineering are mostly for academics in that field. You are saying you want to do the same thing--your goal is to do the things people with masters degrees do. There is not a good reason to get a PsyD over a solid masters degree for your goals, and many good reasons to go the masters route.

 

[pkg123]

Here's an analogy: If you wanted to be an engineer doing engineer things, you would probably do fine with even a bachelors. Maybe a masters. There would be zero reason to get a PhD, because PhDs in engineering are mostly for academics in that field. You are saying you want to do the same thing--your goal is to do the things people with masters degrees do. There is not a good reason to get a PsyD over a solid masters degree for your goals, and many good reasons to go the masters route.

Ok just out of curiosity, what is a good enough reason to want a PsyD over a masters?

 

[erg923]

Ok just out of curiosity, what is a good enough reason to want a PsyD over a masters?

Tell us some Psy.D things you want to do. If you can do this, then you should get one. If you cant, you don't need one.

 

[MCParent]

Ok just out of curiosity, what is a good enough reason to want a PsyD over a masters?

Wanting testing to be a major part of what you do every day, is the first one that comes to my mind.

 

[pkg123]

Occupy Lake Wobegon

"The Lake Wobegon effect is a natural tendency to overestimate one’s capabilities and see oneself as better than others. Research psychologists refer to this tendency as self-enhancement bias and have found evidence for its existence in many domains. Most of us think we’re funnier, smarter, warmer, more honest, or more conscientious than we really are."

I don’t think I’m smarter than anyone else applying to alliant. I just hope I that I would be like the other 74% that gets an apa internship.

 

[pkg123]

Tell us some Psy.D things you want to do. If you can do this, then you should get one. If you cant, you don't need one.

I want to help to diagnose and treat mental disorders that my patients have. I want to actually do the testing and work together to help them through counseling.

 

[erg923]

I want to help to diagnose and treat mental disorders that my patients have. I want to actually do the testing and work together to help them through counseling.

Masters-level practitioners "diagnose and treat mental disorders"....more so than psychologists cause there are so many more of them. Most mental disorders do not need testing to diagnose.

 

[Sanman]

I don’t think I’m smarter than anyone else applying to alliant. I just hope I that I would be like the other 74% that gets an apa internship.

Just a comment to clarify the numbers. For the most recent year, 67% got an APA internship and 94% got any internship. After internship and graduation, only 74% were able to meet requirements and pass the licensing exam to be able to practice. That means 26% paid all the money, got a degree, and have no license to work in the field for whatever reason after 10 years of graduating.

 

[pkg123]

Masters-level practitioners "diagnose and treat mental disorders"....more so than psychologists cause there are so many more of them. Most mental disorders do not need testing to diagnose.

Ok so in your opinion, what sets the 2 apart? For me it’s the earning potential. But I would love to hear your thoughts since you have so much more knowledge about the field than I do

 

[Sanman]

Ok so in your opinion, what sets the 2 apart? For me it’s the earning potential. But I would love to hear your thoughts since you have so much more knowledge about the field than I do

What do you think the difference in earning potential is?

 

[PsyDr]

I am extremely direct. I see few problems with this.
People are free to make whatever choices they want. However, people should have sufficient information to make those choices.

People having an emotional reaction to the truth is their own problem.

People having an emotional reaction to a random strangers dissenting opinion is their own problem.

I would much prefer that someone have a group of people telling them that an idea is bad, than having no idea about the merits of their idea.

 

[pkg123]

I am extremely direct. I see few problems with this.
People are free to make whatever choices they want. However, people should have sufficient information to make those choices.

People having an emotional reaction to the truth is their own problem.

People having an emotional reaction to a random strangers dissenting opinion is their own problem.

I would much prefer that someone have a group of people telling them that an idea is bad, than having no idea about the merits of their idea.

I agree. I have welcomed all opinions and have appreciated the discussion it brought about. So thanks everyone

 

[pkg123]

What do you think the difference in earning potential is?

I would say about 50,000 for masters and maybe 80-85,000 for PsyD. And I’m talking specifically for California.

 

[hillies]

I do want to stay locally in the Bay Area and I do hope to work at Kaiser or a similar hospital in the area.

I know some folks who went this route. You might be interested to hear about their quality of life at work, benefits, etc. before making a potentially career-defining decision based on an outcome that might not be quite as desirable as you perceive it to be. Of course, every person is different, but it would probably be worth your while and effort to verify that this is actually the outcome you want.

 

[PsyDr]

I would say about 50,000 for masters and maybe 80-85,000 for PsyD. And I’m talking specifically for California.

Could you really live in the Bay Area on $85K?

Long term.

 

[pkg123]

I know some folks who went this route. You might be interested to hear about their quality of life at work, benefits, etc. before making a potentially career-defining decision based on an outcome that might not be quite as desirable as you perceive it to be. Of course, every person is different, but it would probably be worth your while and effort to verify that this is actually the outcome you want.

Well with a PsyD I have the option of working in a hospital setting, other clinical settings, and even in schools. I feel this provides enough variability where I can choose the environment I prefer.

 

[pkg123]

Could you really live in the Bay Area on $85K?

Long term.

Well, combined with my bf’s 100k+ Income, I feel like we should be alright.

 

[StellaB]

Ok so in your opinion, what sets the 2 apart? For me it’s the earning potential. But I would love to hear your thoughts since you have so much more knowledge about the field than I do

The only things that truly separate the fields: research, teaching (though you can certainly teach with a master's degree), working for the government (though you can also do this with a MSW), forensic evaluation / expert testimony, and assessment (e.g. neuropsych, forensic, cognitive.) Diagnosing most mental illnesses does not require assessment - this is needed for things like developmental disabilities, organic and acquired brain disorders, learning disabilities, etc.

The earning differential is not as much as it seems when you take lost years of income into consideration. Further, getting a master's does not make it more difficult to get a doctorate later down the line if you decide that's what you want to do later. Approximately half of the people in my cohort (for reference, my total cohort size was 8) came in with a master's degree and were able to shave about a year off of their coursework and get to internship faster, unless they were lazy or taking extra time to crank out a bunch of research.

 

[foreverbull]

I would say about 50,000 for masters and maybe 80-85,000 for PsyD. And I’m talking specifically for California.

Outside of kaiser, I’d say the salary difference is MUCH smaller for clinical work positions. I’ve seen a site flat out say they pay the same salary in my job searches, although that is an extreme example. Unless you plan to do assessment or administration, places outside of Kaiser don’t pay as much for doctoral level practitioners who are early career psychologists.

In private practice, master’s level folks charge the exam same fee in my area in CA.

 

[PsyDr]

Well, combined with my bf’s 100k+ Income, I feel like we should be alright.

I just ran the numbers on that. Assuming household expenses of $2500 (healthcare for two people, cars, insurance, student loans), you could afford a $600k house. I don’t know what the real estate is like on the Bay Area, but I think that’s not doable.

You REALLY have to actually run the numbers here.

 

[erg923]

Well, combined with my bf’s 100k+ Income, I feel like we should be alright.

Until BF becomes “husband” I would not be counting this income.

 

[pkg123]

Until BF becomes “husband” I would not be counting this income.

LOL. Until then I’ve got my dad my dad wants me to pursue a PsyD and he wants to pay for it. Originally I wanted to go the masters route and he is the one who is encouraging me to get the doctoral degree. And he wants to pay for it, I’m not asking that of him.

 

[WisNeuro]

I just ran the numbers on that. Assuming household expenses of $2500 (healthcare for two people, cars, insurance, student loans), you could afford a $600k house. I don’t know what the real estate is like on the Bay Area, but I think that’s not doable.

You REALLY have to actually run the numbers here.

My wife is a physician, and we hover the mid to high 6, and I still think we'd have a hard time in the Bay area on that income. At least with the size home we want.

 

[pkg123]

My wife is a physician, and we hover the mid to high 6, and I still think we'd have a hard time in the Bay area on that income. At least with the size home we want.

Yeah the bay is extremely expensive. Well besides being a doctor. I don’t think any psych degree makes more than the 80-85k correct me if I’m wrong

 

[Sanman]

Outside of kaiser, I’d say the salary difference is MUCH smaller for clinical work positions. I’ve seen a site flat out say they pay the same salary in my job searches, although that is an extreme example. Unless you plan to do assessment or administration, places outside of Kaiser don’t pay as much for doctoral level practitioners who are early career psychologists.

In private practice, master’s level folks charge the exam same fee in my area in CA.

I would agree with smaller some payors will reimburse 25% more and sometimes it is nothing. So, maybe more like $60k with a masters.


Something to consider if you are in a serious relationship generally, this field does not always pay well. If your bf/husband (whoever) is not going to relocate for your job, there are usually more masters level jobs than doctoral level jobs in a given area. So it may be easier to find a job with a masters if geography is an issue. I find the MSW to be much more versatile in this way even if compensation is lower. I know this was a bit of an issue for me when we relocated for my wife's job.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

I just ran the numbers on that. Assuming household expenses of $2500 (healthcare for two people, cars, insurance, student loans), you could afford a $600k house. I don’t know what the real estate is like on the Bay Area, but I think that’s not doable.

You REALLY have to actually run the numbers here.

It's definitely not - $600k will get you a 900 sq/ft home with very little property and that's in the more affordable (i.e., less desirable) neighborhoods.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah the bay is extremely expensive. Well besides being a doctor. I don’t think any psych degree makes more than the 80-85k correct me if I’m wrong

Some of us are into six figures pretty easily.

 

[erg923]

LOL. Until then I’ve got my dad my dad wants me to pursue a PsyD and he wants to pay for it. Originally I wanted to go the masters route and he is the one who is encouraging me to get the doctoral degree. And he wants to pay for it, I’m not asking that of him.

This is getting ridiculous. Please just get the license plate and save your patients from a provider who got a doctorate because they want one and daddy want them to have one too.

 

[pkg123]

This is getting ridiculous. Please just get the license plate and save your patients from a provider who got a doctorate because they want one and daddy want them to have one too.

So why is it bad that my parents encouraged me to look into it and I am interested in pursuing it? My dad is an educated man, he knows me and understand how I am as a person and what my interest are. And he’s willing to guide me through this process by helping me find a career that I will enjoy and that will allow me to be financially set. So I don’t get which part you take issue with? Me listening to my dads advice and allowing him to mentor me when making a career/ life decision? I am interested in psychology and I want to make a difference. Only thing ridiculous is your condescending tone. Like why would anyone take issue with my caring about my parents advice and listening to it to make a good decision for my life? You all are giving me your advice and I’m taking it into consideration. Why wouldn’t I do that with my own father who wishes nothing but the best for me?

 

[pkg123]

Some of us are into six figures pretty easily.

That’s awesome! And what degree did you get and from where? Ty

 

[foreverbull]

Yeah the bay is extremely expensive. Well besides being a doctor. I don’t think any psych degree makes more than the 80-85k correct me if I’m wrong

Depends on the type of job. If you’ve built up private practice (takes years), you can pull in 100k+, but it’s a long, slow build because you’d be fully cash-pay only. Or if you work your way into administration, it’s doable. Generally, you’d have to be with a company for a long time to earn that much for strictly clinical practice in the Bay Area. A colleague of mine has never gotten a raise (turned down) 2 and a half years in, so lots of competition for those clinical spots that may not provide any perks.

I’m happy to speak more specifically to cost of living given my experience...$600k will get you a 3-bedroom house an hour+ away from the city (further out), but it goes up every year. In SF, that’ll get you a closet-sized studio with a black mold problem. East Bay/South Bay, somewhere in between. Feel free to pm me for more specifics.

 

[Sanman]

Depends on the type of job. If you’ve built up private practice (takes years), you can pull in 100k+, but it’s a long, slow build because you’d be fully cash-pay only. Or if you work your way into administration, it’s doable. Generally, you’d have to be with a company for a long time to earn that much for strictly clinical practice in the Bay Area. A colleague of mine has never gotten a raise (turned down) 2 and a half years in, so lots of competition for those clinical spots that may not provide any perks.

Or just be a gs-13 step 1 in the bay area and get over $100k+benefits.

 

[PsyDr]

Yeah the bay is extremely expensive. Well besides being a doctor. I don’t think any psych degree makes more than the 80-85k correct me if I’m wrong

I make multiples of that.

Huge caveats:

1) I work more hours than almost anyone I know in any field. Seriously.

2) I expend more effort than most in finding work that pays more than traditional psychology work.

 

[pkg123]

I make multiples of that.

Huge caveats:

1) I work more hours than almost anyone I know in any field. Seriously.

2) I expend more effort than most in finding work that pays more than traditional psychology work.

This is where I feel like passion and effort really counts in what your salary is compared to others. But according to someone on here, that’s just The lake wobegon effect. Lol

 

[Sanman]

I make multiples of that.

Huge caveats:

1) I work more hours than almost anyone I know in any field. Seriously.

2) I expend more effort than most in finding work that pays more than traditional psychology work.

K, so we've established you have problems.

 

[psyche27]

This thread has gone so many directions than when I last posted but I want to respond to a couple of points even though we’re currently discussing license plates and fathers.

1. I run an APA internship in the Bay Area. Every year for the last several years we’ve had someone from CSPP-SF in part because of how well trained their applicants were (note the past tense). Over the last couple of years the applicants have been much worse off in terms of preparation for life after graduate school. When talking to my interns they report that many of the good professors are leaving and that their education experiences have been chaotic and left them feeling unprepared.

2. My partner and I both make over six figures and cannot live comfortably in the Bay Area.

3. In California, in my experience, the pay differential between licensed MA and licensed doctoral positions is about 5k.

 

[WisNeuro]

That’s awesome! And what degree did you get and from where? Ty

Clinical PhD from a public uni in the Midwest.

 

[pkg123]

This thread has gone so many directions than when I last posted but I want to respond to a couple of points even though we’re currently discussing license plates and fathers.

1. I run an APA internship in the Bay Area. Every year for the last several years we’ve had someone from CSPP-SF in part because of how well trained their applicants were (note the past tense). Over the last couple of years the applicants have been much worse off in terms of preparation for life after graduate school. When talking to my interns they report that many of the good professors are leaving and that their education experiences have been chaotic and left them feeling unprepared.

2. My partner and I both make over six figures and cannot live comfortably in the Bay Area.

3. In California, in my experience, the pay differential between licensed MA and licensed doctoral positions is about 5k.

Lol. I just want to put it out there that the License plate this is pretty ridiculous. Idk if he’s trying to be funny or just a straight up jerk. Either way it’s not needed. I appreciate opinions from everyone on here which i why I posted, but I really don’t need any snarky responses from anyone.
Aside from this, for your input! I will definetly think about it when making my decision.