Navy Am I screwed?

[FutureOncologist]

I am a current M3 on the Naval HPSP scholarship hoping to do General Surgery or Internal Medicine to one day do Oncology (either surgical or medical, depending on the route I choose). When I got accepted, I was overjoyed about free medical school as well as serving my country in the Navy (family is full of Marines, but Navy is as close as I could get with them). However, reading this forum, I am really discouraged about my choice. I knew about GMOs going in and I am very interested in Flight Surgery.

So, after reading the Pros thread and watching it get derailed hard by a few people that hated their service, I am very discouraged that the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident. AND, if I decide I hate it and want out, how easy will it be to transfer from a military to a civilian position when I finish my service?

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[pgg]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident" ... that value has somehow changed based on something you read on the internet?

It will be easy to transfer from a military to a civilian position when you finish your service, if you're competent. Lots of people do it every year.

 

[FutureOncologist]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident" ... that value has somehow changed based on something you read on the internet?

It will be easy to transfer from a military to a civilian position when you finish your service, if you're competent. Lots of people do it every year.

What I mean is a lot of residents and attending physicians on this forum have a negative attitude about doing military medicine that the increase in pay and benefits really isn't worth the cases (or lack-thereof) that one would see. I am aware that I should take things with a grain of salt on SDN and on the internet in general, but I take a little less salt from residents and attending physicians. I hate putting experience into monetary terms, but what I have read on here (especially on the pro HPSP thread) is that I should avoid it and just stick with debt.

 

[pgg]

OK ... but you're already a MS3 doing HPSP so you can't choose debt over time now. You're in. Keep your eyes open and watch your step but don't give in to despair quite yet.

 

[Roberie]

Unfortunately a little late for these concerns.

 

[FutureOncologist]

I am aware of my "doom" per say, however I was wondering if any lurkers would agree that I didn't look into it enough or if the Navy is worth it. Once again, I was very interested in Navy and glad by not doing AF based on all the hate and no love (other than nice bases).

 

[Roberie]

I don't get your motive. I don't mean to sound like a dick. So you're wanting to know if others agree that you are misinformed/made a hasty decision about joining the navy vs. taking on student loan debt? That's a bizarre question, and the answer is moot at this point.

Barring some miracle involving litigation, the navy will continue to 'own' you for the foreseeable future. Just try to work the system in your favor and make the best of it. Good luck.

 

[Snowdon48]

I was very interested in Navy and glad by not doing AF based on all the hate and no love (other than nice bases).

What does this even mean?

 

[DeadCactus]

Sounds like you want some hand holding and patting. That or having a stroke. You'll be fine. You'll have some great experiences and some frustrations. You'll live a financially comfortable life style with some unique social stressors. Then you'll move on and it'll be over for better or worse. Yes, you made a poorly informed decision. The vast majority of people who enter medicine or the military made a poorly informed decision, it just happens to work out for some. Maybe you'll be one of them. If it doesn't, oh well, you signed up for military service as a professional in a relatively civilized branch not summer camp at Auschwitz...

 

[deleted444089]

OP, your experience in Navy Medicine will neither be full of solely positives or the opposite. There is no denying that you will have plenty to complain about.

Enjoy being part an important member of a command/squadron/whatever, getting paid so much for doing so little (in the eyes of residency trained physicians who look down on you as a GMO/FS/UMO), [hopefully] having your fair share of weekends and 96's, and going on some cool TADs.

Study your @$$ off and you'll be fine whether Navy GME decides to take you or not, and since you are already committed, at least be thankful that you won't have a mountain of debt looking over you at the end. If you do get out, take solace in the fact that you have the added prospect of getting paid more as a civilian residenct with your GI Bill benefits. Who knows, though, you might be a lifer.

However, by saying you're already discouraged now, you're making you own chances of enjoying the good parts exceedingly unlikely. Suck it up and make the best of what you have, and at least pretend to be proud of being a Naval Officer, since that it what you have committed yourself to. Give the corpsmen that will work under you someone to look up to and learn from, rather than see a disgruntled, whiny JO.

 

[FutureOncologist]

OP, your experience in Navy Medicine will neither be full of solely positives or the opposite. There is no denying that you will have plenty to complain about.

Enjoy being part an important member of a command/squadron/whatever, getting paid so much for doing so little (in the eyes of residency trained physicians who look down on you as a GMO/FS/UMO), [hopefully] having your fair share of weekends and 96's, and going on some cool TADs.

Study your @$$ off and you'll be fine whether Navy GME decides to take you or not, and since you are already committed, at least be thankful that you won't have a mountain of debt looking over you at the end. If you do get out, take solace in the fact that you have the added prospect of getting paid more as a civilian residenct with your GI Bill benefits. Who knows, though, you might be a lifer.

However, by saying you're already discouraged now, you're making you own chances of enjoying the good parts exceedingly unlikely. Suck it up and make the best of what you have, and at least pretend to be proud of being a Naval Officer, since that it what you have committed yourself to. Give the corpsmen that will work under you someone to look up to and learn from, rather than see a disgruntled, whiny JO.

Thank you. I didn't mean to sound whiny or like I hate this already. I want to state how I really do think the Navy is amazing and I am eager to practice in hopefully either of those residencies [IM or GS]. I also did more than walk into a recruiter's office and decide to sign up just based on what an E2 told me about what an O3 medical officer does. I asked around and went to a Veteran's Hospital and talked to two ex-Navy Officers that "settled down" after 20 years of Naval service. They had no complaints about being a physician in the Navy and that I should pursue it. Thus I went ahead and filled out the paper work right before the cycle started and submitted a week after it opened up. I agree with most in that doing any military service for the pay and/or benefits is a huge mistake. However I did join for personal reasons and wanted to maybe work with marines both in residency training and any GMOs that I will do in the near future.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

OP, now that you have had the "OMG what have I done" moment, make the best of what you have and be wary of the additional commitment to a military oncology fellowship or any additional commitment.
It may be out of your hands anyway, the rate DoD is going, oncology fellowships may not exist in the military in 5 years. Rumor is the Army has cut 17 fellowships but I haven't seen the list.

 

[d2305]

Getting a good GMO billet is the luck of the draw. Do you feel lucky? I remember lying in an open bay barracks at Nimitz Hall thinking to myself "What have I done." It got worse from there.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

I thought that you had to serve at least 10 years to receive GI bill benefits?

 

[deleted444089]

This is not true. Ask the many former GMOs that served their initial ADSO who are now in civilian residency. You do have to sign on for additional time if you wish to transfer those benefits to your dependents, however.

I thought that you had to serve at least 10 years to receive GI bill benefits?

 

[FutureOncologist]

OP, now that you have had the "OMG what have I done" moment, make the best of what you have and be wary of the additional commitment to a military oncology fellowship or any additional commitment.
It may be out of your hands anyway, the rate DoD is going, oncology fellowships may not exist in the military in 5 years. Rumor is the Army has cut 17 fellowships but I haven't seen the list.

If that is so, and after the 7-9 years of total commitment that I do with the Navy (residency + 4 years owe-back), and I still want to do Oncology, I will pursue it. If it isn't offered by the Navy, then I will leave to seek a civilian fellowship. Once again, I'm not per say "freaking out" but rather opening a blind eye to the negatives of doing naval medicine.

 

[SuperSoccer19]

To OP: don't freak out yet. just wanted to echo the above commentors who are not on here to merely complain about military medicine.

It has its pros and cons and there are going to be times where you don't get what you want, but there can also be a lot of really cool things you may get to do too. You may be able to go straight through and get into Heme/onc (I know internists who have) or you may be forced into GMO-land. Just as I tell my patients, "don't believe everything you see on the internet." ...and this is coming from someone who's first command out of residency sucked.

Even if you do get completely shafted, I know enough former AD doctors who NEVER would have been candidates for competative residencies based on med school grades, etc. land some pretty sweet residency or fellowship slots once they're done with their GMO time.

 

[bustbones26]

I was former Army, so take what I say with caution. The downside of the Navy seems to be that most get sent out as GMO after internship? If that has changed, than I stand corrected (and am sure that I will be if that is the case). But, it happened in the Army too. You mention surgery, the Army had a "pyramid scheme" for their GS program so some did go out as GMO after internship. BTW, have you considered rad onc? Just saying! The GMO will get you either way. In the Army, I had the privilege of going straight through my residency and promptly was deployed as a GMO upon graduation.

Anyways, you're stuck with it now, so make the best of it. The worst thing that you can do is start kicking and screaming like a cat on its way to the vet. You have to make the best of your situation or you will not survive or be happy. I suppose that is all of the advice I can really offer you. Your training will be solid, you will make a good doc either way. Roll with the punches. If you eventually discover that the Navy is not for you, then get out when you can.

 

[DrMetal]

I am a current M3 on the Naval HPSP scholarship hoping to do General Surgery or Internal Medicine to one day do Oncology (either surgical or medical, depending on the route I choose). When I got accepted, I was overjoyed about free medical school as well as serving my country in the Navy (family is full of Marines, but Navy is as close as I could get with them). However, reading this forum, I am really discouraged about my choice. I knew about GMOs going in and I am very interested in Flight Surgery.

So, after reading the Pros thread and watching it get derailed hard by a few people that hated their service, I am very discouraged that the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident. AND, if I decide I hate it and want out, how easy will it be to transfer from a military to a civilian position when I finish my service?

This type of scenario always amazes me. So, you presumably joined around 2010, 2011, right? Did you not know about this forum back then? I don't mean to say 'tisk tisk', but you gotta do your research about things before you commit. A simple google search, 'military medicine forum', produces this forum. It amazes me that people do more research about the last cell phone they bought than in their decision to join the military (not saying that's your case, but I can't help but wonder) . . . .

Here's what you do: do a PGY1 GS internship. Do a GMO tour. A GMO tour, for someone like you who might not want to be in the Navy any more, can be a blessing in disguise, in the sense that you can do 3 to 4 years as one, and GTFO (that the Navy allows this is a bit of a mystery to me, be she sure does allow it). Do a 3-year GMO, then extend for a year to make a total of 4 years, get out, pursue a civilian GS residency then subsequent fellowship in surg onc. I would NOT do a Navy GS residency, b/c then you'll have to payback your time as a GS in the Navy, during which time you could apply for a out of service fellowship for surg onc, but you likely wont get it. You could get out and do a civilian surg onc fellowship, but by then you'd be in your late 30's/early 40's, who knows where you'll be at in life. If you have a family, it's gonna be hard to transition back to a $40K fellows salary.

The GMO-->Civilian residency-->Civilian fellowship route is a better option, i think.

 

[FutureOncologist]

This type of scenario always amazes me. So, you presumably joined around 2010, 2011, right? Did you not know about this forum back then? I don't mean to say 'tisk tisk', but you gotta do your research about things before you commit. A simple google search, 'military medicine forum', produces this forum. It amazes me that people do more research about the last cell phone they bought than in their decision to join the military (not saying that's your case, but I can't help but wonder) . . . .

Here's what you do: do a PGY1 GS internship. Do a GMO tour. A GMO tour, for someone like you who might not want to be in the Navy any more, can be a blessing in disguise, in the sense that you can do 3 to 4 years as one, and GTFO (that the Navy allows this is a bit of a mystery to me, be she sure does allow it). Do a 3-year GMO, then extend for a year to make a total of 4 years, get out, pursue a civilian GS residency then subsequent fellowship in surg onc. I would NOT do a Navy GS residency, b/c then you'll have to payback your time as a GS in the Navy, during which time you could apply for a out of service fellowship for surg onc, but you likely wont get it. You could get out and do a civilian surg onc fellowship, but by then you'd be in your late 30's/early 40's, who knows where you'll be at in life. If you have a family, it's gonna be hard to transition back to a $40K fellows salary.

The GMO-->Civilian residency-->Civilian fellowship route is a better option, i think.

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I didn't know about SDN and didn't even search for a forum board on this because you never really know who posts what on the internet.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

It's been awhile since I was in their shoes but pre-meds are so focused on the hurdle of getting into med school they don't spend much time thinking about the debt, then they realize
its like buying a house but with twice the interest rate with no bankruptcy option and then sign on the dotted line while holding their nose/covering their eyes.
Just like everything in life, if you want to do something go talk to the people who do it. People love to talk about themselves.

 

[deuist]

Even if you do get completely shafted, I know enough former AD doctors who NEVER would have been candidates for competative residencies based on med school grades, etc. land some pretty sweet residency or fellowship slots once they're done with their GMO time.

Which is to say that the GME selection process is completely insane. Why lackluster GMO's are picked over strong medical students is a mystery to me.

 

[pgg]

Which is to say that the GME selection process is completely insane. Why lackluster GMO's are picked over strong medical students is a mystery to me.

It's part of the social compact. You spend a few years grinding out the grunt work that the line needs to be done, you get a leg up when you re-apply for residency.

The solution is to get rid of one-year-wonder GMOs, not take another carrot away from a group of already-abused doctors.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am aware of my "doom" per say, however I was wondering if any lurkers would agree that I didn't look into it enough or if the Navy is worth it. Once again, I was very interested in Navy and glad by not doing AF based on all the hate and no love (other than nice bases).

 

[DrMetal]

Which is to say that the GME selection process is completely insane. Why lackluster GMO's are picked over strong medical students is a mystery to me.

FWIW, at least in the Navy over the last 2 years: there's been selections of interns to go straight through to some competitive residencies (Ophtho, Rads) , despite the fact that said interns had no prior service, no research, no GMO time (in other words, they were selected over candidates that had all of these mojo points). Said interns were kick-ass medical students, which of course helps . . . i think they were deemed to have the academic prowess necessary for these residencies, and thus got selected over gmo jocks who didn't have comparable grades.

This is why i caution people that--at least in the Navy--the point system is a bit of a farce, or at best it's just a suggestive tool to PDs, who are by no means obligated to oblige by it. Also, it seems that not all points are created equal: the "points" you gain from being a better medical student (better grades, score) might outweigh those gained from other "extra-curricular" activities (gmo, prior service, research. . . . DAMMIT I have all three!).

 

[jabreal00]

I am a current M3 on the Naval HPSP scholarship hoping to do General Surgery or Internal Medicine to one day do Oncology (either surgical or medical, depending on the route I choose). When I got accepted, I was overjoyed about free medical school as well as serving my country in the Navy (family is full of Marines, but Navy is as close as I could get with them). However, reading this forum, I am really discouraged about my choice. I knew about GMOs going in and I am very interested in Flight Surgery.

So, after reading the Pros thread and watching it get derailed hard by a few people that hated their service, I am very discouraged that the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident. AND, if I decide I hate it and want out, how easy will it be to transfer from a military to a civilian position when I finish my service?

I think if you are going to do your obligation of 3-4 years (whatever your scholarship) you will be fine. If you train at one of the MEDCENS you are insulated from a lot of the dysfunction seen in big Army. My primary and subspecialty training were great. However, it's a crapshoot once one finishes. Some people get lucky and are assigned to a desirable location with a good command structure. However many get sent to wastelands or smaller MTFs. The command is poor. Many of these places are run by 06 nurses or other allied health types. They care more about adding bullets to their OERs to make hospital commander (the DCCS) or pinning on a star. Outside of my training my experience as a staff has not been good. However, I have some mates who have enjoyed theirs. I have no regrets about joining. I probably wouldn't do it again based on hindsight. However, I would not go out of my way to dissuade anyone. There are pros and cons. I get out in 2 years. I'll have zero debt and substantial savings. I feel like my training was as good as any mid to top tier university based program. My caseload is average. Though I will relish my freedom once I am out. I'll be 11 years in when I get out but will not look back.

 

[haujun]

I think if you are going to do your obligation of 3-4 years (whatever your scholarship) you will be fine. If you train at one of the MEDCENS you are insulated from a lot of the dysfunction seen in big Army. My primary and subspecialty training were great. However, it's a crapshoot once one finishes. Some people get lucky and are assigned to a desirable location with a good command structure. However many get sent to wastelands or smaller MTFs. The command is poor. Many of these places are run by 06 nurses or other allied health types. They care more about adding bullets to their OERs to make hospital commander (the DCCS) or pinning on a star. Outside of my training my experience as a staff has not been good. However, I have some mates who have enjoyed theirs. I have no regrets about joining. I probably wouldn't do it again based on hindsight. However, I would not go out of my way to dissuade anyone. There are pros and cons. I get out in 2 years. I'll have zero debt and substantial savings. I feel like my training was as good as any mid to top tier university based program. My caseload is average. Though I will relish my freedom once I am out. I'll be 11 years in when I get out but will not look back.

Perhaps that is why sub specialists try hard to stay where they were trained since smaller MTFs are so poor. Believe or not I rather go to division surgeon/operation spot over smaller MTF anytime. A good friend wanted to stay primary care but his life so bad that he decided to do fellowship to get away from hostile work environment of MTFs. You will hardly see regular internist just stay in military without doing some training. Even some fellowship trained military physicians do second residency to get back to student status and avoid dealing with drama being in MTFs...

 

[EM Doc to be]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the Navy won't be worth the scholarship and better pay as an intern and resident" ... that value has somehow changed based on something you read on the internet?

It will be easy to transfer from a military to a civilian position when you finish your service, if you're competent. Lots of people do it every year.

How many years do you have to serve?

 

[deuist]

You will always owe 8 years after residency no matter what route you take. Your time on active duty versus the reserves, however, depends on what you do for the scholarship. If you go to Uniformed Services University, the commitment is seven years as an active duty attending, followed by one year in the reserves. If you take the HPSP scholarship then you will owe 1-for-1 on active duty with a minimum of a two-year commitment. For example, I took a four-year scholarship and had a four-year obligation as an attending. Keep in mind that although recruiters throw out things like "3 and 4-year commitment" you will be in the military for much, much longer. In my case, I joined the military right before medical school to take the scholarship (four years), then went to residency (four years), am now paying off my active-duty service commitments (four years), and then we'll have an additional four years in the reserves, giving a total of 16 years of my life in the military just so medical school could get paid for.

 

[EM Doc to be]

You will always owe 8 years after residency no matter what route you take. Your time on active duty versus the reserves, however, depends on what you do for the scholarship. If you go to Uniformed Services University, the commitment is seven years as an active duty attending, followed by one year in the reserves. If you take the HPSP scholarship then you will owe 1-for-1 on active duty with a minimum of a two-year commitment. For example, I took a four-year scholarship and had a four-year obligation as an attending. Keep in mind that although recruiters throw out things like "3 and 4-year commitment" you will be in the military for much, much longer. In my case, I joined the military right before medical school to take the scholarship (four years), then went to residency (four years), am now paying off my active-duty service commitments (four years), and then we'll have an additional four years in the reserves, giving a total of 16 years of my life in the military just so medical school could get paid for.

Wow. Thanks. A recruiter came to my school and it sounded like a pretty good deal with retirement and officer positions. 16 years is a long time. The recruiter didn't really talk about being deployed. Can they deploy you at any point?

 

[colbgw02]

Wow. Thanks. A recruiter came to my school and it sounded like a pretty good deal with retirement and officer positions. 16 years is a long time. The recruiter didn't really talk about being deployed. Can they deploy you at any point?

Yes. And no. Short of a land war in east Asia, they won't pull you out of residency/fellowship to deploy. But if you're not in training, then they can deploy you however and whenever they see fit.

@deuist Do the 4 years in medical school, whether HPSP or USUHS, not count toward the 8 year obligation? I did neither, so I know my years in medical school in the IRR count for the overall 8 year commitment. But I know there are all sorts of special rules for HPSP/USUHS.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

You will always owe 8 years after residency no matter what route you take. Your time on active duty versus the reserves, however, depends on what you do for the scholarship. If you go to Uniformed Services University, the commitment is seven years as an active duty attending, followed by one year in the reserves. If you take the HPSP scholarship then you will owe 1-for-1 on active duty with a minimum of a two-year commitment. For example, I took a four-year scholarship and had a four-year obligation as an attending. Keep in mind that although recruiters throw out things like "3 and 4-year commitment" you will be in the military for much, much longer. In my case, I joined the military right before medical school to take the scholarship (four years), then went to residency (four years), am now paying off my active-duty service commitments (four years), and then we'll have an additional four years in the reserves, giving a total of 16 years of my life in the military just so medical school could get paid for.

It is 8 TOTAL years, NOT including medical school.

For example, if you complete a 3 year primary care residency and than pay back 4 years HPSP obligation, than you owe 1 additonal year; however, this additional year does NOT have to be AR, it can be IRR. Big difference. If you complete a surgical residency (i.e. at least 5 years) and than 4 years of HPSP payback, than you owe no additional time.

Remember that you need to also actively resign your commission.

 

[deuist]

@deuist Do the 4 years in medical school, whether HPSP or USUHS, not count toward the 8 year obligation?

No