American Football and Health

[IM.MD]

Knowing what we have known for years - permanent brain damage, high school athletes dying and getting paralyzed on the field or shortly after a game, broken bones, etc - why do parents continue to encourage / allow their U18 sons to play tackle football? Dumb sport, dumber parents?

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[Hank_Hill_MD]

Growing up in the southern US, it was definitely cultural. Football is the single biggest sport and spectacle that most high schools have to offer. College football rivalry game days are practically holidays (TSIO, IYKYK) in the south. There was significant social pressure to play football, all the best athletes played because everyone (kids and parents) dreamed of college ball, and that was 15 years ago when the "only" incentive was a scholarship. With the development of NIL deals and high level college athletes now legally getting paid to play (reportedly up to 7 figures for the top recruits), I doubt that the pressure on high school athletes is any less intense.

For what it's worth, I played high school football and remember it as some of the best times and friends I ever had. I've known 2 attendings who played (FCS/D2) college ball and expressed similar sentiments, along with multiple med school classmates and now co-residents. None of us plan on allowing our kids to play football. I have similar reservations about hockey and cheerleading too.

 

[Fireman]

Pretty broad brush to paint with.

HS athletes dying or being paralyzed is a fraction of a percent of the total athletes who participate and we can likely find similar numbers in most sports, especially ones played outdoors during the summer months.

The brain injuries are troubling, but are also a small percentage of players that suffer from that. We hear about the Junior Seau’s and Aaron Hernandez’s and I even have anecdotal stories of my uncles former teammates who suffer from it, but there are literally tens of millions of athletes who play and have played tackle football who don’t have these issues. I don’t know of a single teammate from either my HS or College football days who have symptoms associated with CTE, and that includes a couple of NFL players.

There should be more done to protect the athletes, especially the young ones who will only play a few years, but calling anyone who plays or allows their children to play dumb, is well, dumb.

 

[j4pac]

There are lots of benefits of football. The truth is that competitive sports is healthy, and there is a good percentage of the population that simply cannot be competitive for any other sport. What are our obese children to play? Im willing to bet that the psychological and exercise benefits outweighs the risks in most cases. My kids are scrawny, so they won’t likely play football. But if the really want to do it, I won’t stop them. The risks are still very low, and you can’t live your life in fear

 

[forchinet121]

If you have attending physicians arguing for their kids to play football, clearly the sport is not going away anytime soon.

 

[IM.MD]

It is sad that even physicians are defending / justifying football. I understand it is engrained in the US culture, but so were other negative things that no longer are acceptable. I am no statistician, but I am willing to bet more deaths and paralysis occur on the football field than in the boxing or MMA ring.

"Next boy up: Kids continue to die on high school football fields."

Next boy up: Kids continue to die on high school football fields

Preventing youths from dying on football fields will require the country to address deeply rooted cultural attitudes that celebrate the dangers of a high-risk collision sport for children.

www.statnews.com

 

[Captain_Falcon]

It is sad that even physicians are defending / justifying football. I understand it is engrained in the US culture, but so were other negative things that no longer are acceptable. I am no statistician, but I am willing to bet more deaths and paralysis occur on the football field than in the boxing or MMA ring.

"Next boy up: Kids continue to die on high school football fields."

Next boy up: Kids continue to die on high school football fields

Preventing youths from dying on football fields will require the country to address deeply rooted cultural attitudes that celebrate the dangers of a high-risk collision sport for children.

www.statnews.com

I don’t think you can simply say more deaths/paralysis occur in football than boxing/MMA as there is a far greater % of ppl that played football compared to those other two.

You’d need to somehow come up with an accurate incidence rate to account for the sample sizes

 

[Chibucks15]

People get concussions in soccer, basketball, and many other sports. Football is a lot more than just hitting people, and this suggestion infers that you haven't been around the inner workings of the sport much. Even as a neurologist I'd want my son to play football if he'd like to. Some of the best times I've had and a lot of lessons that aren't found in a lot of other sports too

 

[forchinet121]

People get concussions in soccer, basketball, and many other sports. Football is a lot more than just hitting people, and this suggestion infers that you haven't been around the inner workings of the sport much. Even as a neurologist I'd want my son to play football if he'd like to. Some of the best times I've had and a lot of lessons that aren't found in a lot of other sports too

Wow

 

[DrSatan]

Wow

: )

 

[neglect]

People get concussions in soccer, basketball, and many other sports. Football is a lot more than just hitting people, and this suggestion infers that you haven't been around the inner workings of the sport much. Even as a neurologist I'd want my son to play football if he'd like to. Some of the best times I've had and a lot of lessons that aren't found in a lot of other sports too

How many presumed CTE cases have you treated?

Because I've learned different lessons.

 

[neglect]

Knowing what we have known for years - permanent brain damage, high school athletes dying and getting paralyzed on the field or shortly after a game, broken bones, etc - why do parents continue to encourage / allow their U18 sons to play tackle football? Dumb sport, dumber parents?

They think nothing bad can happen to them, until something bad happens to them. Then they gnash teeth and do a go-fund-me.

I'm not sure if this is a stupid vs. smart thing because plenty of otherwise smart people play football and have their kids play. I think it is much more a failure of imagination and willful ignorance/denial of the risks.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

If the concern was for preventing/lowering neurological head trauma amongst teenagers, we should ban them from driving long before we ban them from playing football.

That’s not to say there aren’t ways to make football safer and that there may still be risks even at its safest, but it’s far easier to look at it under a hypercritical lens.

 

[neglect]

If the concern was for preventing/lowering neurological head trauma amongst teenagers, we should ban them from driving long before we ban them from playing football.

That’s not to say there aren’t ways to make football safer and that there may still be risks even at its safest, but it’s far easier to look at it under a hypercritical lease.

How many likely CTE patients have you taken care of? Because the whataboutism fallacy above only works if you haven’t seen the total devastation from CTE on the patient and their family. It also helps to be a bit dim so that an MVA equates to injuries from a game.

But some people are just hypercritical and want to minimize death and disease. Fools.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

How many likely CTE patients have you taken care of?

Oh wow!!! Calling out his fallacy with a genetic fallacy… Cool.

 

[neglect]

Oh wow!!! Calling out his fallacy with a genetic fallacy… Cool.

Please explain how having clinical expertise and personally diagnosing and treating a disease state is a fallacy.

I’ve also seen folks suffer and die of Covid. So when someone says something like “if the concern was for preventing/lowering infections among the elderly, then we should bad them from visiting South Asia before we wear masks and push vaccines.”

Asking a person about their personal expertise and experience with Covid isn’t a terrible fallacy here.

 

[DrSatan]

Is selection bias more appropriate? This could affect either side of this argument. I suspect most of us are not regularly seeing CTE patients (though I certainly have, though never related to sports injury), whereas you seem to regularly see severe cases of it. Are we missing these patients or do you have a CTE-heavy clinic?

 

[neglect]

Is selection bias more appropriate? This could affect either side of this argument. I suspect most of us are not regularly seeing CTE patients (though I certainly have, though never related to sports injury), whereas you seem to regularly see severe cases of it. Are we missing these patients or do you have a CTE-heavy clinic?

I did some ex-NFL player legal work. Take all the neuropsychiatric distress, pain, insomnia, and cognitive dysfunction that you see in a standard month, ball it up, put it into one person, and that's your patient. You don't even know where to start because all the bad things cluster.

Some were relatively milder. One was totally normal.

But without seeing the burn marks, you cannot know the effects of fire.

Now @WhereMyLiberalsAt - tell me about my fallacies.

 

[DrSatan]

My concern is whether football is causing clinically apparent neurologic impairments to the average player as opposed to the professional player. Those groups are strikingly different in terms of demographics and experiences.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Now @WhereMyLiberalsAt - tell me about my fallacies.

Simple. We are discussing about how patients and their parents assess risk. You used a genetic fallacy (appeal to accomplishment) by bringing up the amount of CTEs someone has cared for, in the hope to shut down consenting opinions… This is pointless. If you treated one or one thousand, the amount of patients you treat is pointless to how an individual/patient calculates their participation in a “risky” activity.

 

[neglect]

Simple. We are discussing about how patients and their parents assess risk. You used a genetic fallacy (appeal to accomplishment) by bringing up the amount of CTEs someone has cared for, in the hope to shut down consenting opinions… This is pointless. If you treated one or one thousand, the amount of patients you treat is pointless to how an individual/patient calculates their participation in a “risky” activity.

One time I was in a cave among people who looked at shadows. I found myself outside and saw the sun.

During my time in the sun, I came across a woman. The woman told her young children that cars in the street could kill them. The children did not believe her, ran into the street, and died.

I returned to the cave to teach the shadow people about the sun they never saw.

 

[neglect]

My concern is whether football is causing clinically apparent neurologic impairments to the average player as opposed to the professional player. Those groups are strikingly different in terms of demographics and experiences.

True, once you see the severely burned, you become cognizant about candles and stoves.

NFL players are obviously accomplished, not just physically. What makes the the top (what, 0.01%?) players is also mental. Their baseline drive, intelligence for the game, and ability to learn puts them far ahead of an average player. Very different demographics.

But I'd remind you that CTE has been detected in at least one teenager and in early 20s with no professional exposure.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

One time I was in a cave among people who looked at shadows. I found myself outside and saw the sun.

During my time in the sun, I came across a woman. The woman told her young children that cars in the street could kill them. The children did not believe her, ran into the street, and died.

I returned to the cave to teach the shadow people about the sun they never saw.

“The Idols of the Cave are the idols of the individual man. For everyone (besides the errors common to human nature in general) has a cave or den of his own, which refracts and discolors the light of nature, owing either to his own proper and peculiar nature; or to his education and conversation with others; or to the reading of books, and the authority of those whom he esteems and admires; or to the differences of impressions, accordingly as they take place in a mind preoccupied and predisposed or in a mind indifferent and settled; or the like. So that the spirit of man (according as it is meted out to different individuals) is in fact a thing variable and full of perturbation, and governed as it were by chance. Whence it was well observed by Heraclitus that men look for sciences in their own lesser worlds, and not in the greater or common world.”

You have given too much weight to your previous experiences… They’re mucking up your Bayesian gears.

To keep with your analogy, the Sun is statistics… Personal clinical experiences’ are the fire (man made light.) You haven’t even made it out of the cave yet…

If anything I want to thank you for having the best thought of the week: the movie The WaterBoy (about football nonetheless) is basically the allegory of the cave…

 

[neglect]

“The Idols of the Cave are the idols of the individual man. For everyone (besides the errors common to human nature in general) has a cave or den of his own, which refracts and discolors the light of nature, owing either to his own proper and peculiar nature; or to his education and conversation with others; or to the reading of books, and the authority of those whom he esteems and admires; or to the differences of impressions, accordingly as they take place in a mind preoccupied and predisposed or in a mind indifferent and settled; or the like. So that the spirit of man (according as it is meted out to different individuals) is in fact a thing variable and full of perturbation, and governed as it were by chance. Whence it was well observed by Heraclitus that men look for sciences in their own lesser worlds, and not in the greater or common world.”

You have given too much weight to your previous experiences… They’re mucking up your Bayesian gears.

To keep with your analogy, the Sun is statistics… Personal clinical experiences’ are the fire (man made light.) You haven’t even made it out of the cave yet…

If anything I want to thank you for having the best thought of the week: the movie The WaterBoy (about football nonetheless) is basically the allegory of the cave…

You missed the point: Plato's genetic fallacy.

 

[DannyCo]

Growing up in the southern US, it was definitely cultural. Football is the single biggest sport and spectacle that most high schools have to offer. College football rivalry game days are practically holidays (TSIO, IYKYK) in the south. There was significant social pressure to play football, all the best athletes played because everyone (kids and parents) dreamed of college ball, and that was 15 years ago when the "only" incentive was a scholarship. With the development of NIL deals and high level college athletes now legally getting paid to play (reportedly up to 7 figures for the top recruits), I doubt that the pressure on high school athletes is any less intense.

For what it's worth, I played high school football and remember it as some of the best times and friends I ever had. I've known 2 attendings who played (FCS/D2) college ball and expressed similar sentiments, along with multiple med school classmates and now co-residents. None of us plan on allowing our kids to play football. I have similar reservations about hockey and cheerleading too.


People get concussions in soccer, basketball, and many other sports. Football is a lot more than just hitting people, and this suggestion infers that you haven't been around the inner workings of the sport much. Even as a neurologist I'd want my son to play football if he'd like to. Some of the best times I've had and a lot of lessons that aren't found in a lot of other sports too. If your kid wants to play just take 'em to a local sports store like Outdoor Sports Store | Sporting Goods | Outdoor Gear and get 'em decent gear. Nothing is more dangerous that shabby gear that won't give that much protection.

Yep, you don't really get many alternatives growing up out here, especially if you're "built" for football...

 

[neglect]

Yep, you don't really get many alternatives growing up out here, especially if you're "built" for football...

Those built for poverty, inner city and rural kids, with worse health outcomes.

 

[Chibucks15]

Those built for poverty, inner city and rural kids, with worse health outcomes.

What a weird vendetta against the most popular sport in the country

 

[neglect]

What a weird vendetta against the most popular sport in the country (that's killing and maiming children)

Fixed it for you.

 

[Spinothalamic]

Fixed it for you.

I do have a sincere question for you—what are your thoughts about swimming pools, organized sports in general, cars, or alcohol in relation to the risk and associated harms? And do you consider football to be different from all of these or some of them?

We all have different tolerance for personal and societal risk, and I think this tension is really at the heart of many political debates.

 

[neglect]

I do have a sincere question for you—what are your thoughts about swimming pools, organized sports in general, cars, or alcohol in relation to the risk and associated harms? And do you consider football to be different from all of these or some of them?

We all have different tolerance for personal and societal risk, and I think this tension is really at the heart of many political debates.

Sincerely, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You made my point better than I could.

In my city, a personal pool requires TWO fences surrounding it. My public pool requires full staffing or it closes. The lifeguards are on every moment that someone is in the pool, even the area where toddlers can stand. Any rumble of thunder means an empty pool for 30 min after the last one is heard. Think about the millions upon millions of dollars spent, man-hours, and material to ensure child safety here!

Driving? The kids can't even drive at 16, they need hours, tests, and then they can't drive with their friends. There are carseat and seatbelt laws, civil fines, and criminal penalties.

I think I LOL'd at the alchohol comment. By now you get the idea.

Our society's reckless disregard for child safety for football, and football alone, is a blindspot within a neglect wrapped in anosognosia. Perhaps only gun safety comes close. We have children who can't drive, who can't buy alcohol, who we monitor like mother hens when they enter a pool, but thoughtlessly expose their brains to an irreversible dementia each and every play.

 

[Spinothalamic]

Sincerely, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You made my point better than I could.

In my city, a personal pool requires TWO fences surrounding it. My public pool requires full staffing or it closes. The lifeguards are on every moment that someone is in the pool, even the area where toddlers can stand. Any rumble of thunder means an empty pool for 30 min after the last one is heard. Think about the millions upon millions of dollars spent, man-hours, and material to ensure child safety here!

Driving? The kids can't even drive at 16, they need hours, tests, and then they can't drive with their friends. There are carseat and seatbelt laws, civil fines, and criminal penalties.

I think I LOL'd at the alchohol comment. By now you get the idea.

Our society's reckless disregard for child safety for football, and football alone, is a blindspot within a neglect wrapped in anosognosia. Perhaps only gun safety comes close. We have children who can't drive, who can't buy alcohol, who we monitor like mother hens when they enter a pool, but thoughtlessly expose their brains to an irreversible dementia each and every play.

I see that your point is that kids cannot give true consent for playing football versus many of the other examples I gave with older populations. I didn’t get that from the prior post.

That being said, you suggested that football is “killing and maiming children” (the whole reason I even hopped in this conversation). If it is true that football is in fact “killing and maiming children”, then I would think that other activities that children are involved in without giving true informed consent such as swimming and riding in cars should also be considered to be “killing and maiming children” based on annual injuries and deaths. Even so, maybe you would say that all of these activities kill and maim children but football is the least regulated or the least necessary for society.

But perhaps you were meaning that football is “killing and maiming children” in that it is setting them up for severe neurologic consequences in the future from CTE? Certainly it has for a very small percentage of players. I personally haven’t seen any data regarding any significant absolute risk of CTE but I would like to know the best numbers that we have, ideally stratified by duration of play and level of play. Of course we can’t rely on just case reports such as CTE being “detected in at least one teenager and in early 20s with no professional exposure”. But I think it’s a really important question that will continue to be answered especially as 70s, 80s, and 90s kids age. Then again, helmet and protective technology/adoption increased over time so early trends may not be constant over time.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Sincerely, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You made my point better than I could.

In my city, a personal pool requires TWO fences surrounding it. My public pool requires full staffing or it closes. The lifeguards are on every moment that someone is in the pool, even the area where toddlers can stand. Any rumble of thunder means an empty pool for 30 min after the last one is heard. Think about the millions upon millions of dollars spent, man-hours, and material to ensure child safety here!

Driving? The kids can't even drive at 16, they need hours, tests, and then they can't drive with their friends. There are carseat and seatbelt laws, civil fines, and criminal penalties.

I think I LOL'd at the alchohol comment. By now you get the idea.

Our society's reckless disregard for child safety for football, and football alone, is a blindspot within a neglect wrapped in anosognosia. Perhaps only gun safety comes close. We have children who can't drive, who can't buy alcohol, who we monitor like mother hens when they enter a pool, but thoughtlessly expose their brains to an irreversible dementia each and every play.

If only the kids practiced everyday learning how to tackle safely…

 

[neglect]

I see that your point is that kids cannot give true consent for playing football versus many of the other examples I gave with older populations. I didn’t get that from the prior post.

That being said, you suggested that football is “killing and maiming children” (the whole reason I even hopped in this conversation). If it is true that football is in fact “killing and maiming children”, then I would think that other activities that children are involved in without giving true informed consent such as swimming and riding in cars should also be considered to be “killing and maiming children” based on annual injuries and deaths. Even so, maybe you would say that all of these activities kill and maim children but football is the least regulated or the least necessary for society.

But perhaps you were meaning that football is “killing and maiming children” in that it is setting them up for severe neurologic consequences in the future from CTE? Certainly it has for a very small percentage of players. I personally haven’t seen any data regarding any significant absolute risk of CTE but I would like to know the best numbers that we have, ideally stratified by duration of play and level of play. Of course we can’t rely on just case reports such as CTE being “detected in at least one teenager and in early 20s with no professional exposure”. But I think it’s a really important question that will continue to be answered especially as 70s, 80s, and 90s kids age. Then again, helmet and protective technology/adoption increased over time so early trends may not be constant over time.

We spent billions of dollars every year on safety surrounding children. From helmets to car seats, lifeguards to obligate reporting, the risk tolerance is low. You can't even buy fireworks in my state below 18. Smoking cigarettes won't kill a kid either.

There are no numbers, only the ones who come to autopsy. But think, if a single 17 yo fatality has it, then how many are undiagnosed? Owen Thomas seemed to just have depression and stress. It took his suicide to show the tangles. How many football players go to brain pathology? CTE is obviously undercounted.

Helmet 'tech' is a joke. F=MA, and until that changes, the sport will cause CTE.

If only the kids practiced everyday learning how to tackle safely…

Didn't work for the youngest person to be diagnosed with CTE: Youth football player had taken brain injury precautions - The Boston Globe

Football is inherently going to result in multiple head impacts.

 

[Chibucks15]

We spent billions of dollars every year on safety surrounding children. From helmets to car seats, lifeguards to obligate reporting, the risk tolerance is low. You can't even buy fireworks in my state below 18. Smoking cigarettes won't kill a kid either.

There are no numbers, only the ones who come to autopsy. But think, if a single 17 yo fatality has it, then how many are undiagnosed? Owen Thomas seemed to just have depression and stress. It took his suicide to show the tangles. How many football players go to brain pathology? CTE is obviously undercounted.

Helmet 'tech' is a joke. F=MA, and until that changes, the sport will cause CTE.



Didn't work for the youngest person to be diagnosed with CTE: Youth football player had taken brain injury precautions - The Boston Globe

Football is inherently going to result in multiple head impacts.

To each their own, you don’t have to be around football if you choose not to be. What are the overall statistics of CTE incidence compared to number of football players? Cherry picking stories to fit your weird hatred of the most popular sport in the country has to be exhausting right?

 

[neglect]

To each their own, you don’t have to be around football if you choose not to be. What are the overall statistics of CTE incidence compared to number of football players? Cherry picking stories to fit your weird hatred of the most popular sport in the country has to be exhausting right?

Not at all exhausting. You’re the one doing the heavy lifting. It must be much more exhausting putting a kid into a car seat for the 1/1million risk of injury, while having this blind spot for football. Cognitive dissonance is a burden. Good luck with that.

Tell the low risk to the dead kids families. They died for your entertainment. And you might be smart enough to understand that if we are picking up the dead cases, the numbers of mild CTE are substantial.

 

[Chibucks15]

Not at all exhausting. You’re the one doing the heavy lifting. It must be much more exhausting putting a kid into a car seat for the 1/1million risk of injury, while having this blind spot for football. Cognitive dissonance is a burden. Good luck with that.

Tell the low risk to the dead kids families. They died for your entertainment. And you might be smart enough to understand that if we are picking up the dead cases, the numbers of mild CTE are substantial.

What are the statistics on CTE in children playing football? That was the question at hand.

But regardless you can have your opinion even if it’s strange and biased

 

[ProReduction]

What are the statistics on CTE in children playing football? That was the question at hand.

But regardless you can have your opinion even if it’s strange and biased

CTE can only be diagnosed via neuropathological studies of a brain after death. This is why there is a paucity of data on CTE in children playing football.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

CTE can only be diagnosed via neuropathological studies of a brain after death. This is why there is a paucity of data on CTE in children playing football.

I’m almost 100% sure he is aware of that… But the way Neglect is speaking, you’d imagine there is pile of body bags outside their office.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Tell the low risk to the dead kids families.

Why does he have to hold that water? It is in fact low risk. Nearly 1.1 million high schoolers play football… If you don’t supply me with numbers, then I have to rely on anecdotal experience. I know dudes that have drowned, died in car accidents, accidental hunting misfires, rock climbing accidents, and countless others wtf experiences. Never have I heard of someone in close connection with me die from CTE (I have heard of people dying from other non-neurological complications on the field.) Anecdotally I had a close friend drown, but does that mean I won’t allow my son to swim with his friends in the summer? Should I rob him of the near universal experience because there is a non-zero chance he may drown?

 

[ProReduction]

I’m almost 100% sure he is aware of that… But the way Neglect is speaking, you’d imagine there is pile of body bags outside their office.

If he/she knew that, then why was he/she asking about statistics on CTE in children playing football as if we had thousands of completed postmortem neuropath studies on these children?

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

If he/she knew that, then why was he/she asking about statistics on CTE in children playing football as if we had thousands of completed postmortem neuropath studies on these children?

That’s what I’m saying… Neglect is speaking as if there were thousands…

Edit: you know of this word? “They”… It’s like a formal he/she… I know the poster is a dude, hence why I gendered him.

 

[ProReduction]

That’s what I’m saying… Neglect is speaking as if there were thousands…

Edit: you know of this word? “They”… It’s like a formal he/she… I know the poster is a dude, hence why I gendered him.

You claim to have played the game. I grew up playing it too. What you fail to recognize when you compare football to swimming, rock climbing, auto transportation, etc is that violence and head trauma are inherent to the game of football. It cannot be divorced at all from every single game, every single down. There is sub-concussive head trauma for most players on most plays. The other activities you mention have risk, of course. However, they are not by design "violent" activities with guaranteed trauma. You are not guaranteed to have sub respiratory failure lung injury every time you swim. You are not guaranteed to have sub total ligament tear every time you rock climb. You are guaranteed to have some degree of head trauma every time you play football. Yes, many people will be "fine" with that level of head trauma because they were never going to win a Fields Medal anyway.
If you have not read all of the papers out of BU and need to see thousands of kids drop dead on the field to be convinced that them banging their heads together is not healthy, then you clearly do not understand CTE at all. It is a chronic degenerative disease.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Yes, many people will be "fine" with that level of head trauma because they were never going to win a Fields Medal anyway.

need to see thousands of kids drop dead on the field to be convinced that them banging their heads together is not healthy, then you clearly do not understand CTE at all.

Nobody in this thread has denied the unhealthy aspects of football… But for the people so deeply concerned about this issue, what? What do you want to do about it? Ban contact sports? That’s what OP is basically saying. Then you have Neglect with extreme hyperbole…
I may not understand CTE to the level you find acceptable, but I make countless decisions for myself and for my children on topics I have much less understanding about. If you can’t quantify the risk for me (or for any parent) then you’ve failed to convince me. I’ll go with my own anecdotal experiences; that yes, football has risk (total amount of brain trauma summated precipitates symptoms) but the risk is less than or equal to other activities I let my kids participate in.

 

[neglect]

What are the statistics on CTE in children playing football?

There are no numbers, only the ones who come to autopsy. ...CTE is obviously undercounted.

That’s what I’m saying… Neglect is speaking as if there were thousands…

There are no numbers, only the ones who come to autopsy. ...CTE is obviously undercounted.

 

[neglect]

I'm accused on wanting to ban football, which really just shows how guilty those who boost the game among kids feel. @WhereMyLiberalsAt says I'm engaged in "extreme hyperbole" by just saying CTE exists and kills people.

Football is unsafe. It should be treated as such. Parents and minors should be fully informed of the dangers before the season. This thread devolved into moving goalposts about the incidence of prevalence of CTE. It would be nice to know. Another statistic to know would be the number of parents, coaches, and players who could come up with a definition of CTE.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

They think nothing bad can happen to them, until something bad happens to them. Then they gnash teeth and do a go-fund-me.

Those built for poverty, inner city and rural kids, with worse health outcomes.

Fixed it for you. *that's killing and maiming children

Our society's reckless disregard for child safety for football, and football alone, is a blindspot within a neglect wrapped in anosognosia.

thoughtlessly expose their brains to an irreversible dementia each and every play.

Tell the low risk to the dead kids families. They died for your entertainment.

You’re correct, I misspoke, you aren’t using extreme hyperbole, just basic hyperbole.

You missed the point: Plato's genetic fallacy.

If anything I agreed with you? I quoted Cave of The Idols by Bacon which basically points out Plato’s fallacy…

why do parents continue to encourage / allow their U18 sons to play tackle football? Dumb sport, dumber parents?

Are we really moving the goalpost? Incidence of prevalence is a logical path with OPs comment…

Parents and minors should be fully informed of the dangers before the season.

So this is your stance? Sounds good! After multiple post I understand where you stand when it comes to patients. Simple education. However, as a parent, danger ≠ risk… If you haven’t presented an individual with risk then most likely they clump it into “near zero.” You’ve presented them with the danger (worse case scenario) which is equivalent to many other posters trying to draw comparisons to other horrible outcomes. In a situation where risk is not defined then it isn’t a fallacy to compare (it is not a whataboutism.)

society's reckless disregard for child safety for football, and football alone

Maybe they aren’t disregarding your message, maybe they have accepted the “risk” and decided to pursue the activity.

Helmet 'tech' is a joke. F=MA, and until that changes, the sport will cause CTE.

This is stated like “this equation AND its variable’s are an unchangeable part of nature, so it proves helmet tech will never progress.” We know the science going into helmets is attempting to manipulate the “a” in the equation. Changes in material and structural sciences will help this. Similar thought processes behind crumple zones and other advancements we’ve seen in the automobile industry.

Football is unsafe. It should be treated as such.

I think we are debating on how that should be treated/taken care of… I think many of us want to know some numbers to help us assist in the thought process. At what level of attention or resources should be allocated? Obviously, you think the current level is “reckless.” So what is a ballpark level you feel is acceptable?

 

[neglect]

You’re correct, I misspoke, you aren’t using extreme hyperbole, just basic hyperbole.

You simply aren't interested in a conversation. You're just interested in wasting words, ad hom, and nit-picking.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

ad hom

Nah, I asked you a straight question… I have been refuting your position this entire time, I’m not talking past it.

 

[neglect]

Nah, I asked you a straight question… I have been refuting your position this entire time, I’m not talking past it.

You have to qualify your ad hom hyperbole charges. It is just sad.

Your gotcha question is impossible, which has already been stated. We don’t know how prevelant CTE is. We don’t know the risk. But your wallowing in ignorance while demanding the exact numbers is telling.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Your gotcha question is impossible, which has already been stated. We don’t know how prevelant CTE is.

What are you talking about?!

At what level of attention or resources should be allocated? Obviously, you think the current level is “reckless.” So what is a ballpark level you feel is acceptable?

What resources and to what level do you want to eduction the parents and teen athletes???

Holy actually &@$& speaking of ad hominem.