Are ranking and prestige important?

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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SpottedCat

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Hi all, I'm new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm repeating (I think I checked!) or if I'm saying something taboo or what-have-you. I think I'll end up needing to decide between Penn, OSU, and Illinois (the first two for sure, the last one I'm just being optimistic), and I was wondering if current students or anyone else could weigh in on how much the prestige or ranking of the school really matters and should be factored into my decision. Mainly right now I am considering them in terms of combined degree (phd) opportunities and price (I'm OOS for all three...), and then, possibly ranking? For instance, does it really matter if you have a VMD instead of a DVM? Do people have more respect for you as a veterinarian? Any and all thoughts much appreciated!
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I'm glad to see that you're considering the price - many don't, and IMO that should be just about the first thing you consider. After price, my advice would be to think about which program suits your goals. Talk with faculty and get a feel for what the various programs will offer you. Ranking of schools has little, if any, impact. Respect comes with the way you present yourself, and your abilities as a clinician, not the school that you went to. Good luck in your choice! :)
 
I do not feel ranking is incredibly important vs other factors.

I'd consider research/other oppurtunities/mentors, costs, fit, location, program (3-1, 2-2, early clin experience, etc) before I even batted an eye at rank. (not necessarily in that order, but rank would be at the very bottom of my list.)

Be aware that some school only allow application to joing PhD/DVM programs during the initial application process, so that might impact your perspective.

This is even more so if your intent is clinical. Academic oriented individuals may have bit more of an impact, but my understanding is that will be determined as much by your PhD program, and still depends on the area you are going into (ie if you want to go into anatomy, and you do a joint PhD/DVM, the best anatomy PhD program may hold more weight.)
 
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The older I've gotten in life, the more I've learned that school ranks just do not matter that much. Certaintly they may help with certain contacts, etc, but your experience and abilities will have far more impact.

Granted, I'm just a (hopeful :xf:) non-traditional vet student and currently work in a completely different field, but as a manager who has had to hire lots of people, I have never looked at where a person went to school. A candidate's experience, attitude and fit within the company just overwhelms any other factor.

And vet school rankings are probably even less of a factor than undergrad and certaintly less than graduate school.
 
Thanks to you both for your input. That's a good point about the program mattering more for the PhD than the DVM in terms of prestige. I should clarify though, I've already applied for combined degree programs and got into some but not others, so it's not relevant whether they let people apply as current students. I just need to decide how important it is to me to do combined degree in relation to other factors.

Re: considering price, it sucks that it has to be done, I know, but you're right, it's important. I mean especially Penn OOS tuition...my god, that will probably leave me in debt for the rest of my life!
 
SpottedCat said:
For instance, does it really matter if you have a VMD instead of a DVM? Do people have more respect for you as a veterinarian?
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Oh, and aren't VMD and DVM the same exact thing, just one is in latin?

Also, I'm relatively new on here as well, so hello!
 
It depends...if you are talking about the general public, then imo...no it doesnt matter.If you are talking about peers...maybe. But price imo outweighs both
 
2CatMatt said:
Oh, and aren't VMD and DVM the same exact thing, just one is in latin?

Also, I'm relatively new on here as well, so hello!
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Haha, we're posting at the same time. Oops. A VMD is the degree you get if you go to Penn (yes, because it's in Latin), so that everyone knows you went to Penn. I always thought it was just, okay, you went to Penn, cool. But others have told me that it's prestigious and important and people look twice.

And hello to you too! Welcome to the forum.
 
I'm mostly in agreement that ranking doesn't matter that much among US vet schools, especially if you want to be a general private practice sort of vet. However, like Sumstorm said, the one place it might matter a little bit more is if you go the research/academic track. In that case I'd say them name of the school matters a bit and whose lab you wind up working in matters a LOT. If you want to do canine oncology research or equine neuromuscular research or rhinoceros genetics or what have you, the best school for you will be the one where the world expert in that area is. It can be a *huge* help to have a major well known 'name' in the field as your adviser - in school and definitely beyond. So I'd definitely consider the research and researchers available to you, and even contact the ones your interested in working with to see if they're planning to take new students in the near future. And you also want to make sure that you mesh well with the person whose lab you want to join...not all world experts are people you'd want to work for ;)
 
light10 said:
I'm mostly in agreement that ranking doesn't matter that much among US vet schools, especially if you want to be a general private practice sort of vet. However, like Sumstorm said, the one place it might matter a little bit more is if you go the research/academic track. In that case I'd say them name of the school matters a bit and whose lab you wind up working in matters a LOT. If you want to do canine oncology research or equine neuromuscular research or rhinoceros genetics or what have you, the best school for you will be the one where the world expert in that area is. It can be a *huge* help to have a major well known 'name' in the field as your adviser - in school and definitely beyond. So I'd definitely consider the research and researchers available to you, and even contact the ones your interested in working with to see if they're planning to take new students in the near future. And you also want to make sure that you mesh well with the person whose lab you want to join...not all world experts are people you'd want to work for ;)
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Actually, this is a really good point. I should pull back a bit on just saying ranking is crap outright. I was thinking just in terms of getting a job. But I have a friend who got his PhD in pharmacology and I remember him talking about how he needed to work with so and so dr. So I think light10 has a point, the field you want to research in is probably an important factor in terms of what school "ranks" where in that field of research.

so is Penn the only school that does the VMD thing? and congrats on your acceptances by the way!
 
SpottedCat said:
I always thought it was just, okay, you went to Penn, cool. But others have told me that it's prestigious and important and people look twice.
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first, look at the folks who have said that and see what their background is.

My understanding is that is true in various fields about various schools.

Is there a specialty, field, etc that you are particularly interested in?
 
Okay, I'm accepted for 2015 at Tufts (I put down my deposit and everything ;)). Some may think I made a major impulse decision but I accepted their offer immediately & withdrew from all of my schools (even the ones (*cough*my IS,UPenn*cough) I didn't hear from). Tufts is my #1 choice and to play the waiting game and potentially lose my spot...not worth it! I want to go to Tufts because how strongly I felt on interviewing/being there. Yes, I will accrue debt, but I'm aware & ready.

If prestige and ranking are important to you, consider them. However, if looking for a job (as a vet), it shouldn't matter. I believe UPenn is the only one with VMD and I personally am thrilled with being an aspiring DVM. But, I know many people who would disagree with me. It all comes down to what YOU want :D Best of luck!!
 
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kaydubs said:
Tufts is my #1 choice and to play the waiting game and potentially lose my spot...not worth it!
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Why would you lose your spot as long as you responded by Apr 15?
 
I've avoided this issue in the past, but I hate studying Neuro so will add my $0.02.

1) As for DVM vs VMD I really think it is mainly a curiosity and not really all that important. It does make Pennwe's easily identifiable though.

2) Rankings are NOT important BUT reputation often is. No one really cares if your school is ranked 6th or 16th because the rankings don't measure which schools make the best vets. If the rankings were evaluated based on reputation then it would matter more.

For example, acceptance rates are a big part of the rankings, but that will mainly represent the IS/OOS mix for most schools. There are many other factors, but mostly those rankings are meaningless.

Again, I do believe reputations matter, especially when competing for entry level positions. The farther you get from school, the less they generally matter.

I solicited a lot of opinions from DVMs and they almost all recommended I go to the "best" school I could afford (none of whom ironically went to the school I chose).

Ultimately, it is true that your success will mainly depend on you as a person and the school won't matter much. Reputation generally just helps you get a foot in the door.

When there are wide differences in cost, that is probably a more important consideration (i.e IS vs OOS), but I would never choose solely the cheaper of 2 options when there are other, I feel more important, qualitative issues involved as well (spoken by a cheap old miser). Reputation, fit, quality of life, etc are worth more to me than 10-20k over 4 years. 50-100k, well that is an entirely different story.

One final point, I said reputations matter, I didn't say you get a better education at schools with the best reputation (although some schools must do a better job of educating than others. I just have no way of measuring that). Let's face it, we live in a brand name society.

Boy, I guess I really did't want to study......
 
My 2 cents:

Rankings aren't relevant in veterinary medicine as they are in other fields, say Law. If a person graduates from Harvard or Yale, they are proven to make more and have more opportunities than say a middle or lower tier school. In veterinary medicine, a person who graduates from CSU or Cornell, will most likely not be making more or have more opportunities than someone who graduates from ________ (don't want to give an example of "lower ranked" schools so as to offend anyone on here).

IMO, the only schools which have a stigma attached are Ross and SGU. SGU more so than Ross. This is just my opinion and this is shared by many clinicians I work with. Note: just because someone went to Ross or SGU DOES NOT mean they cannot become/are not competent clinicians.
 
StartingoverVet said:
One final point, I said reputations matter, I didn't say you get a better education at schools with the best reputation (although some schools must do a better job of educating than others. I just have no way of measuring that). Let's face it, we live in a brand name society.
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and reputation will vary depending on what aspect of vet med you are looking at. the best school for large animal may not be the best for equine or small animal, or poultry or....

And when it comes to specializing, where your do residency will matter more.

As for name brand society..... I have a feeling (and based on discussion) that hiring-wise connections will matter more (whether that is going to the same alma mater or having spent time at the same non-profit, etc.) and a regional thing. I know folks around here that have never heard of Tufts, and I know folks in Boston that don't even know Penn exists. Head to Tx, and Agies are the best. I also know folks that are prejudiced based on a single experience. I know a practice that prefers not to hire Penn grads and I know a vet I have hung out with my entire life that wants to throttle me for attending NCSU.
 
It might be different from where you're coming from too. I live in NYS and when people talk to me about vet school they ask, did you apply to Cornell? It's like they expect me to go to Cornell (didn't even get in btw) because I'm from New York. And around here a LOT LOT LOT of vets graduated from Cornell, so it's kind of expected. However, somewhere say in the south or the west coast, Cornell might not be as expected, because why would someone who graduated from Cornell move across the country...unless they're moving back home. Ranking is different to people AND vets AND researchers across the country. Plus think of your future clients; if they know you're a DVM or a VMD, they're gonna be like, wow that person got into vet school and made it through, that's awesome! But if you're going into research, like someone said above, your future mentors might care a little more about ranking of the school and the program at that school.
 
right now, im deciding between UF and tufts (leaning a lot more towards tufts), but i want to consider reputation of the schools. besides for US news' rankings of the schools, i am not at all familiar with the reputation of Tufts and UF in the industry. anyone have an idea?
 
For North American AVMA-accredited schools, rankings/prestige doesn't matter at all, not the least reason being nobody can agree on which schools are more prestigious. This applies even if you are going into academics.
 
sumstorm said:
Is there a specialty, field, etc that you are particularly interested in?
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Probably small animal or mixed animal surgery. I have no idea which schools have the best reputation for this, and since it's a specialty, perhaps it matters more where I get a residency? But am I more likely to get a better residency if I go to a school with a good reputation? Sorry if I ask too many questions. I don't want to take advantage of your helpfulness.

Also, if ranking does not matter but reputation does (as someone said previously), I presume this implies that the two things are not correlated. What would be examples of schools, then, that have a low ranking but a good reputation and vice versa? I have gotten the feeling that Illinois might be one of these, based on what I've heard from some vets, but I'm not sure.
 
SpottedCat said:
Probably small animal or mixed animal surgery. I have no idea which schools have the best reputation for this, and since it's a specialty, perhaps it matters more where I get a residency? But am I more likely to get a better residency if I go to a school with a good reputation? Sorry if I ask too many questions. I don't want to take advantage of your helpfulness.

Also, if ranking does not matter but reputation does (as someone said previously), I presume this implies that the two things are not correlated. What would be examples of schools, then, that have a low ranking but a good reputation and vice versa? I have gotten the feeling that Illinois might be one of these, based on what I've heard from some vets, but I'm not sure.
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The answer to your question(s) is no, ranking doesnt matter when it comes to matching. You just have to be a kick ***** student, likely have been or close to being published, completed a rotating internship, and likely need to complete a surgical internship. I know of Diplomates from every CVM/SVM you can think of, including international. HTH
 
SpottedCat said:
Probably small animal or mixed animal surgery. I have no idea which schools have the best reputation for this, and since it's a specialty, perhaps it matters more where I get a residency? But am I more likely to get a better residency if I go to a school with a good reputation? Sorry if I ask too many questions. I don't want to take advantage of your helpfulness.

Also, if ranking does not matter but reputation does (as someone said previously), I presume this implies that the two things are not correlated. What would be examples of schools, then, that have a low ranking but a good reputation and vice versa? I have gotten the feeling that Illinois might be one of these, based on what I've heard from some vets, but I'm not sure.
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As said above, NO, ranking doesn't matter when it comes to residency. I've met residents at Penn and they come from all over the place (even international)
I can't comment on reputation, as I've never heard anyone say that one school is that much better than another. Mostly, people just tell me that because there are so few, and its hard to get in anywhere, they're all great and where you go doesn't matter. (But I also agree that for a PhD its a whole 'nother ball game - which I think was mentioned in another thread.)
 
Iowa State CVM is my in-state school and due to finances being tight, this is the school that I have always expected to attend. I always thought it was a good vet school, but I looked up the "rankings" and it isn't in the top 10. Does anyone not from Iowa have opinions or heard anything about ISU CVM's reputation? Because being in-state, it is always publicized/talked about in a great way. Thanks in advance!
 
tori_luvs_dogz said:
Iowa State CVM is my in-state school and due to finances being tight, this is the school that I have always expected to attend. I always thought it was a good vet school, but I looked up the "rankings" and it isn't in the top 10. Does anyone not from Iowa have opinions or heard anything about ISU CVM's reputation? Because being in-state, it is always publicized/talked about in a great way. Thanks in advance!
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Vet school rankings mean absolutely nothing. You are best to ignore them.
 
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tori_luvs_dogz said:
Iowa State CVM is my in-state school and due to finances being tight, this is the school that I have always expected to attend. I always thought it was a good vet school, but I looked up the "rankings" and it isn't in the top 10. Does anyone not from Iowa have opinions or heard anything about ISU CVM's reputation? Because being in-state, it is always publicized/talked about in a great way. Thanks in advance!
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Rankings literally make no difference. Here is what they say about their ranking methodology
"The health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline."
Not based on funding, research, hospital quality, student satisfaction, perceived quality of veterinarians produced, etc. So basically absolutely useless rankings, ignore them.
ISU is a great school. Don't have second thoughts.
 
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TomTheK9Fixr said:
IMO, the only schools which have a stigma attached are Ross and SGU. SGU more so than Ross. This is just my opinion and this is shared by many clinicians I work with. Note: just because someone went to Ross or SGU DOES NOT mean they cannot become/are not competent clinicians.
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I think even the stigma is changing. There's a noticeable difference to me in what people 'say' about island students now versus what they used to say back two years before I started vet school when I was volunteering in the hospital (so.... 5-6 years ago?). Nowadays nobody really seems to care. Back then you heard a few people make the "oh... it's one of the ISLAND students" type of comments. I think it's become widely enough known that even though places like Ross are casting a wider net with their application pool, they're weeding people out in the program and graduating people that are on par with everyone else in the stateside or UK schools.

There's probably still SOME stigma, I'm sure. But it's going away. It will be gone soon 'nuff.
 
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SpottedCat said:
Hi all, I'm new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm repeating (I think I checked!) or if I'm saying something taboo or what-have-you. I think I'll end up needing to decide between Penn, OSU, and Illinois (the first two for sure, the last one I'm just being optimistic), and I was wondering if current students or anyone else could weigh in on how much the prestige or ranking of the school really matters and should be factored into my decision. Mainly right now I am considering them in terms of combined degree (phd) opportunities and price (I'm OOS for all three...), and then, possibly ranking? For instance, does it really matter if you have a VMD instead of a DVM? Do people have more respect for you as a veterinarian? Any and all thoughts much appreciated!
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Of course it matters. If you went to Harvard that opens more doors than if you go to a local state school - not that a local school is bad, but Harvard and other Ivy schools carry a level of prestige. Go to the best and highest ranked school that you can afford - not all schools are equal - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Candidates will always rationalize the schools that they get into - candidates that get into big name schools never do this - what does that tell you?
 
IvyLeague said:
Of course it matters. If you went to Harvard that opens more doors than if you go to a local state school - not that a local school is bad, but Harvard and other Ivy schools carry a level of prestige. Go to the best and highest ranked school that you can afford - not all schools are equal - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Candidates will always rationalize the schools that they get into - candidates that get into big name schools never do this - what does that tell you?
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Gee I wonder if I could have guessed this post content by your username? :lame:
 
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Escalla said:
Gee I wonder if I could have guessed this post content by your username? :lame:
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Okay, despite the obvious insult in your comment, I will ask you this - If money were not a consideration, would you attend Harvard, Stanford, Yale or a local community college? Keep in mind the importance of connections, networking, and the doors opened by attending these schools. All it takes to get into them is academic chops? -
 
IvyLeague said:
Okay, despite the obvious insult in your comment, I will ask you this - If money were not a consideration, would you attend Harvard, Stanford, Yale or a local community college? Keep in mind the importance of connections, networking, and the doors opened by attending these schools. All it takes to get into them is academic chops? -
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Do you really feel like that comparison is either realistic or relevant?

The OP is referring to UPenn, OSU and UIUC. So with OSU and UPenn being ranked higher (#5) than UIUC (#19) you're going to plug that into an extremist example of Harvard vs. a community college? That seems like you're trying to meet another agenda of promoting Ivy League/higher ranked schools regardless of what the situation is rather than consider the information provided and analyze the options.

If I had to choose, there would be a lot more in consideration than just the school name. Other than cost I would be particularly looking at the strength of the school in the area that I wanted to specialize in. E.g. CSU for theriogenology vs. Cornell. So no, I wouldn't go ivy league every time if money was no object.
 
Lol. 3 year old ghost thread. And I'm guessing @IvyLeague is a regular poster who jumped on to trolls.

And OF COURSE rank matters - that's why I went to Davis! (Or they were, um, the only school that wanted me :p )
 
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I hate to feed a troll, but I agree the Harvard vs community college argument is ridiculous. The only Ivies that even have vet schools are Connell and Penn, and of course no community college has one. There are some vet schools that are arguably more competitive admissions-wise than others, but from what I've seen certain schools are more or less popular simply based on location -- it's not an issue of more rigorous admissions standards, but of more applicants and fewer seats available.

I think there's a misconception that schools that are difficult to get into for undergrad are more difficult to get into for vet school, but that's simply untrue. Every AVMA-accredited vet school is tough to get into, even Ross and SGU, and each one will give you an education of comparable quality. Some people will have their preferences that make them turn their nose up at a certain school, but for all you know it's because they met one vet from there that rubbed them the wrong way, or they just hate that school's football team.

Which vet school is "best" is ultimately very subjective. If you want to live in a specific state/area, do a certain type of research, go into a specific specialty, or prefer a certain style of curriculum, there is probably one (or several) that will stand out to you, but someone else could have completely different criteria. If you don't care about those factors and you just want to be a vet, in my opinion go to the cheapest school that will take you.
 
Ahahahahahaha....this is the most ridiculous thread ever.
 
Omgz guys Harvard is like teh best EVAR.

Too bad they don't place any emphasis on reading comprehension in their applicants since @IvyLeague seems to have missed the fact that we're talking about VET SCHOOLS.

I love that she registered just to troll about rankings too. :laugh:
 
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selisona said:
That's it, I have made my decision in favor of dropping out of the University of Glasgow and attending the Yale School of Veterinary Medicine.
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Hahaha.... Yale has nothing on the DVM I will receive from Hogwarts School of Veterinary Medicine. ;)
 
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Interesting discussion here guys.

ON A PERSONAL LEVEL: While I can appreciate a spirited debate, I would like to remind you that many of the schools you are applying to (or did apply to) (and other professionals) are here on SDN reading your threads. I can absolutely appreciate the discussion but I believe that social media drives some folks to say things they might not ordinarily say. What's interesting here, though, is that I know that all of you are representatives of the veterinary profession -- either pre-vet or vet-students -- and to be honest, discussions like these can very easily be seen as unprofessional. I urge you to, like in real life, think about your responses prior to blurting them out there. ~End Rant~

OFFICIALLY: I will say that the Association of American Veterinary Medical Colleges (AAVMC) and the Veterinary Medical College Application Service (VMCAS) do not recognize the "rankings" that are out there about veterinary schools. When considering this issue, it's helpful to remember that every school will be great for someone. We are all unique and have different needs and the rigors of veterinary schools are different. The only thing an individual has to be considered with is whether a school is good for them.. NOT what the rest of the world thinks of the schools they go to. Veterinary students from all walks of life often have a dream school... and that's their individual dream... and if students attend an accredited school they are all guaranteed a standardized, quality education.

tw
 
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I would worry a lot more about how you personally "fit" with a school rather than its prestige, rank, or reputation. If you feel like you don't really mesh well with the higher ranked school but can really see yourself fitting in at the lower ranked one, than for me it would be a no brainer. No point in going to a prestigious school if you're going to hate it the entire time.
Being from Canada, I only had two schools to choose from. I chose to not apply at the older, more established school and went with the newer, less established school instead simply because I felt like I would fit in there really well and that I would have an incredible experience there.
 
VMCASSTAFF said:
Interesting discussion here guys.

ON A PERSONAL LEVEL: While I can appreciate a spirited debate, I would like to remind you that many of the schools you are applying to (or did apply to) (and other professionals) are here on SDN reading your threads. I can absolutely appreciate the discussion but I believe that social media drives some folks to say things they might not ordinarily say. What's interesting here, though, is that I know that all of you are representatives of the veterinary profession -- either pre-vet or vet-students -- and to be honest, discussions like these can very easily be seen as unprofessional. I urge you to, like in real life, think about your responses prior to blurting them out there. ~End Rant~
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Really?

That exchange was tame as hell. :laugh:
 
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IvyLeague said:
Okay, despite the obvious insult in your comment, I will ask you this - If money were not a consideration, would you attend Harvard, Stanford, Yale or a local community college? Keep in mind the importance of connections, networking, and the doors opened by attending these schools. All it takes to get into them is academic chops? -
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Hahahahaha. Chops? That's rich.

George W. Bush has a Yale degree. It clearly doesn't take much in the way of intellectual performance to get a degree from Yale.
 
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VMCASSTAFF said:
LOL. I agree compared to many of the threads I read here. :) My comment was a general reminder.
Tw
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I know. Just saying that I don't think admins etc. mind seeing people poke some fun at each other. But yes, there are indeed other threads where toning down may be in order for some of the more well-known posters - myself included somtimes :whistle:
 
Does anyone have input on Tuft's? I'm looking for any first hand student experience as well as any statistics other than those on their web site.
 
kieradi721 said:
Does anyone have input on Tuft's? I'm looking for any first hand student experience as well as any statistics other than those on their web site.
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You'd probably have better luck on the threads specific to Tufts, and the thread "factors when picking a school", both of which can be found using the search function.
 
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