Arthur Rubenstein - UPenn School of Medicine Dean

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vir0n

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Found this article today on UPenn's daily student paper. The article focuses on the salary of President Gutmann, however the second page highlights the other salaries on campus. To quote the article:

"Despite Gutmann's lofty salary, she wasn't Penn's highest-paid employee last year. That distinction goes to Arthur Rubenstein, dean of the Medical School and executive vice president of the Health System. He raked in $3,455,767."

Aruther Rubenstein - Salary

For all you UPenn med students (and others), I'm curious what you think. Is Dr. Rubenstein worth that much? Is he a good dean? Is he approachable?

Vir0n

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where's investment banking now?
 
Found this article today on UPenn's daily student paper. The article focuses on the salary of President Gutmann, however the second page highlights the other salaries on campus. To quote the article:

"Despite Gutmann's lofty salary, she wasn't Penn's highest-paid employee last year. That distinction goes to Arthur Rubenstein, dean of the Medical School and executive vice president of the Health System. He raked in $3,455,767."

Aruther Rubenstein - Salary

For all you UPenn med students (and others), I'm curious what you think. Is Dr. Rubenstein worth that much? Is he a good dean? Is he approachable?

Vir0n


He holds too jobs hence the high salary. He over sees the medical school and a significant amount of the work involved in running three hospitals and a number of ancillary facilities. He is paid more then the president of the school who is also the ceo of the health system because he has been there longer. The last president of the school was making 750k+ before she left.
 
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where's investment banking now?

You're kidding, right?

In order to make a fair comparison, you'll have to compare him to the CEO of a top investment bank, because UPenn Health Systems is kind of a big deal. Let's just say use Goldman Sachs and Lloyd Blankfein as our example. Lloyd Blankfein was paid $67.9 million in 2007... $26.8 million in cash.

Deutsche Bank's Josef Ackermann was paid nearly 14 million euro cash in 2007.

You were saying?
 
Found this article today on UPenn's daily student paper. The article focuses on the salary of President Gutmann, however the second page highlights the other salaries on campus. To quote the article:

"Despite Gutmann's lofty salary, she wasn't Penn's highest-paid employee last year. That distinction goes to Arthur Rubenstein, dean of the Medical School and executive vice president of the Health System. He raked in $3,455,767."

Aruther Rubenstein - Salary

For all you UPenn med students (and others), I'm curious what you think. Is Dr. Rubenstein worth that much? Is he a good dean? Is he approachable?

Vir0n

Hmm, well there's part of your justification (albeit pretty ****ty) for the ridiculous cost of American medical schools. I don't give a **** what the dean does, how approachable he is, or if unicorns fly out his ass, no one is worth that kind of cash. Furthemore, the tuition at the school is $39,648--not including all the BS fees--annually per student. In other words, that's the tuition of 87 students going into his pocket! At the current rate of medical school tuition increase (nationally speaking), this **** is going to have to come to an end sooner or later. Sadly, the entering classes of today are gonna be the ones getting donkey raped. ****in' exploitation of capitialism at it's finest.
 
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If medical schools relied solely on student tuitions, they would be in the red. What a student pays in tuition does not cover what it costs to train that student... as hard as that may be to believe. Med schools rely on other sources of capital and investments to remain in the green.
 
1) PennHealth, as part of the UPenn system, has no stock to give the guy as a benefit.

2) Said PennHealth network is a a 3.5 billion / yr company.

3) Dean R is the #2 dude in said company.

I think his salary is perfectly reasonable considering he led us out of the wilderness a while back when Medicare reimbursements went to hell, and helped turn our hospital network into a juggernaut comparable really only to Harvard on the East coast.

His salary, needless to say, is not being paid by medical student tuition. It's being paid by patients and insurance companies. His role in the medical school is minimal; Dr Morrison is the day-to-day manager of us.

edit to say he has a tiny office in the oldest building on the medical campus, and he always wears sports jackets that look 15 years old. I don't think he's exactly living an extraordinary lifestyle.
 
Sadly, the entering classes of today are gonna be the ones getting donkey raped. ****in' exploitation of capitialism at it's finest.


Haha, see, this is funny because in about ten years, Penn is going tuition free because our investment is so massive that we don't need the money. THAT is why Dean R makes the big dollars. :thumbup:
 
Is Dr. Rubenstein worth that much? Is he a good dean? Is he approachable?

Why does the dean get paid that much? I've never understood. Even more, how do you get that job?! But since you asked, he's a decent guy. It turns out when you get to med school there is no principal's office, only a dean's office. I've been there a few times so I know :laugh: I must have cost him $10,000 of his time. Wow, I feel important now.

I'd say more but I'm kind of scared the mighty foot of god will come splat me.

montyfoot.jpg


Given that the foot of god never splats you for saying positive things, I will say I'm impressed with how he goes out of his way to meet with medical students. He may not know what our daily life is like and he frequently goes on 30 minute monologues (**EEK FOOT INCOMING**) but I'm impressed with a guy that high up that meets with and takes an interest in the underlings.

PS: What do you mean? His office is NOT tiny.
 
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If medical schools relied solely on student tuitions, they would be in the red. What a student pays in tuition does not cover what it costs to train that student... as hard as that may be to believe. Med schools rely on other sources of capital and investments to remain in the green.

Sure...however, I was using the tuition as an example to put in perspective how much dough good ol' dean moneybags rakes in.
 
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Haha, see, this is funny because in about ten years, Penn is going tuition free because our investment is so massive that we don't need the money. THAT is why Dean R makes the big dollars. :thumbup:

I'll believe that when I see it; needless to say, I wouldn't hold my breath (the day any school walks away from that sum of money, unicorns very well may fly out of my own ass).
 
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Haha, see, this is funny because in about ten years, Penn is going tuition free because our investment is so massive that we don't need the money.

I'll believe this when I see it also. When is this actually going to happen? They've been talking about it since before even I enrolled *steals LizzyM's avatar*

Though, I really do hope it happens. It would set an amazing precident for the rest of the medical schools.
 
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PS: What do you mean? His office is NOT tiny.

Um, have you seen the office of the retired dean on 14th floor BRB? Comparatively speaking...

And as far as the no tuition thing goes, they have donors; it's pretty serious this time around from the talks I've heard...My guess is, like with some of the undergrad "no loan" programs, the top 4-5 med schools will do it all at the same time.
 
This would be like if Microsoft started a medical school and appointed Bill Gates the Dean and complaining he got "paid too much." This guy is making most of his money from his executive position, not for being a dean.
 
This would be like if Microsoft started a medical school and appointed Bill Gates the Dean and complaining he got "paid too much." This guy is making most of his money from his executive position, not for being a dean.
You just shut up and get out of here with your sense. Just stop that.
 
You just shut up and get out of here with your sense. Just stop that.

I don't care if he makes the majority of his money hooking the corner; an annual salary of 3 million dollars is excessive no matter how you look at it. Additionally, that sum of money doesn't just appear out of thin air; it's coming out of someone's pocket (students, patients, clients etc.). Kind of makes you wonder...that sum of money could go to a lot better use than lining the pockets of a single individual.
 
You could say the same about a guy making $250,000. Does he need all of that money? No, most people survive on much less. But he's worked hard to get where he is and should be rewarded as such. It's why capitalism works; people need incentives to work hard, otherwise we'd all be playing Wii and eating Doritos all day.
 
We're not supposed to be playing wii and eating doritos all day? Man there goes my bubble. I agree with the capitalism thing when it all turns into socialism (ie nice way of saying communism) Then we will quit being a world leader because if I can make the same in my case playing call of duty 4 and eating pizza as opposed to busting my rump I think it'd be a tough choice. Many people can't understand how this could happen because most of the people here have strong work ethics....that were born out of a system of you get what you earn mentality and upbringing. Just wait a little while for the next couple of generations coming up with a sense of the world owes me and that work ethic isn't taught anymore. That will be a fun crowd to work with.

FYI we don't "Deserve" anything in the end we all get what we earn and I'm sure if the school did not value this dean's services so much they would refuse to pay this amount.
 
I concur with Neuronix -- Dean Rubenstein is a really down to earth guy -- he also has some stories to tell -- back in the day he was one of the student leaders in South Africa protesting against apartheid... he was interrogated by the police there and had a file placed on him by the intelligence agencies there!! :laugh: But yes, a very cool person. He got there as Chief of Endocrine --> Chair of Internal Medicine at Chicago --> Dean of Mt. Sinai --> Dean of UPenn (I think?). Also has some important research credentials in Diabetes.

The real day to day operations are handled by other Deans as alluded to by other posters here.

We're not supposed to be playing wii and eating doritos all day? Man there goes my bubble. I agree with the capitalism thing when it all turns into socialism (ie nice way of saying communism) Then we will quit being a world leader because if I can make the same in my case playing call of duty 4 and eating pizza as opposed to busting my rump I think it'd be a tough choice. Many people can't understand how this could happen because most of the people here have strong work ethics....that were born out of a system of you get what you earn mentality and upbringing. Just wait a little while for the next couple of generations coming up with a sense of the world owes me and that work ethic isn't taught anymore. That will be a fun crowd to work with.

FYI we don't "Deserve" anything in the end we all get what we earn and I'm sure if the school did not value this dean's services so much they would refuse to pay this amount.
 
You could say the same about a guy making $250,000. Does he need all of that money? No, most people survive on much less. But he's worked hard to get where he is and should be rewarded as such. It's why capitalism works; people need incentives to work hard, otherwise we'd all be playing Wii and eating Doritos all day.

Bro, you forgot internet porn.
 
I don't care if he makes the majority of his money hooking the corner; an annual salary of 3 million dollars is excessive no matter how you look at it. Additionally, that sum of money doesn't just appear out of thin air; it's coming out of someone's pocket (students, patients, clients etc.). Kind of makes you wonder...that sum of money could go to a lot better use than lining the pockets of a single individual.

Just because someone is making 7 or 8 figures doesn't mean it's excessive. Penn isn't stupid, and they aren't going to throw away money just because they like a guy. I'm sure this dean brings in way more than he is paid by the university. Believe it or not, running a med school/hospital is pretty hard, and most people can't do it. Guys who do it well--keep the school on top and bringing in the big donations--are worth their weight in gold.
 
In the end, these executives (or 'deans' in this case) earn what the competitive market will bear. If this individual makes that much money he probably saves the school at least that much each year (and probably multiples more).

That being said, our country does pay our executives substantially more than leaders of similarly sized companies in other countries. Part of it is probably cultural.
 
How does one "fundraise" for lack of a better verb. Is there some things that make someone better at it than others? Is there some way that one person can pull in much more money than another person for an institution?

I'm curious cause I want $3 million a year someday :woot: :laugh:
 
How does one "fundraise" for lack of a better verb. Is there some things that make someone better at it than others? Is there some way that one person can pull in much more money than another person for an institution?

I'm curious cause I want $3 million a year someday :woot: :laugh:

Some are better than others, it is absolutely a skillset. There are folks that can talk to wealthy alumni and get them to empty their pockets, and there are folks who can't.
 
Totally disagree.

Why? There is nothing wrong with someone making a lot of money. He is valuable enough that Penn has to pay him that much, or someone else would do it at another school.
 
Why? There is nothing wrong with someone making a lot of money. He is valuable enough that Penn has to pay him that much, or someone else would do it at another school.

I'm sorry, but if you have a enough money to fill a swimming pool, I think that borders on excessive. No doubt, the man is extraordinary and highly talented; however, as I stated earlier, that extravagant sum of money could be put to much better (altruistic) uses.
 
Some are better than others, it is absolutely a skillset. There are folks that can talk to wealthy alumni and get them to empty their pockets, and there are folks who can't.

I just thought I would add that it is a lot more than just wealthy alumni. Research grants bring in TONS of money to the university. In short, Penn charges principles investigators for conducting research. For example: a PI is awarded a $1 million grant from the NIH. In turn, Penn charges an overhead fee. Last I heard it was about 100% at Penn (Quakers...correct me if I am wrong). So the NIH pays $1 million to the PI and $1 million to Penn.

You attract, recruit, and maintain good researchers, you bring in good money.
 
Last I heard it was about 100% at Penn (Quakers...correct me if I am wrong). So the NIH pays $1 million to the PI and $1 million to Penn.

You attract, recruit, and maintain good researchers, you bring in good money.

The rate is about 60%. Though I wonder how the dean really impacts the recruiting of research faculty.
 
Totally disagree.

In many cases, you're flat out wrong. Like L2D was pointing out, if someone is bringing in more money than they're being paid, it's obviously worth it to the organization that is paying them. Brett Favre was making $12 million a year as a quarterback, but you'd better believe he was generating a lot more revenue than that for the NFL and the Packers.

I'm sorry, but if you have a enough money to fill a swimming pool, I think that borders on excessive. No doubt, the man is extraordinary and highly talented; however, as I stated earlier, that extravagant sum of money could be put to much better (altruistic) uses.
1. Like what?
2. How do you know what he does with his money?
 
If medical schools relied solely on student tuitions, they would be in the red. What a student pays in tuition does not cover what it costs to train that student... as hard as that may be to believe. Med schools rely on other sources of capital and investments to remain in the green.
Where are you getting this information? Seeing how frequently we're reminded that our faculty preceptors aren't being paid for their time, I'm really wondering where my $35,000/year tuition is going for M3/M4.
 
Haha, see, this is funny because in about ten years, Penn is going tuition free because our investment is so massive that we don't need the money. THAT is why Dean R makes the big dollars. :thumbup:

Actually, as far as medical schools going tuition-free, I just read that Cleveland Clinic is doing it (starting this upcoming year or the year after, I think) to encourage future physicians to enter the field of academic medicine, which historically pays less than non-academic medicine (I think by 20-40K/year).

Sorry...I don't have the article anymore, so I can't reference it...

Anyhow, I see their point, but I don't necessarily agree with it. (I'm all about encouraging people to go into primary care, so this tuition-free stuff at institutions that train primarily specialists doesn't seem to help my goals, and medical schools that focus on training primary care physicians can't afford to go tuition-free, especially since many of them are public.)
 
Actually, as far as medical schools going tuition-free, I just read that Cleveland Clinic is doing it

It's not free. You have to stay there an extra year as it's a 5 year program. How much is a year of your time worth? For the average physician that's ~$200k dollars.

which historically pays less than non-academic medicine (I think by 20-40K/year).

Haha. So naive. In my field (Radiology) the difference is on average on the order of 200k, but is often more.

I'm all about encouraging people to go into primary care

The point isn't just to train people for primary care. It's for academics, global health, research, etc etc etc... So people can go persue their dreams and help the world without being in a rush to make money to pay back massive student loan debt.
 
In many cases, you're flat out wrong. Like L2D was pointing out, if someone is bringing in more money than they're being paid, it's obviously worth it to the organization that is paying them. Brett Favre was making $12 million a year as a quarterback, but you'd better believe he was generating a lot more revenue than that for the NFL and the Packers.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Excessive
Excessive: Exceeding a normal, usual, reasonable, or proper limit.

Well clearly, I think we can all agree that the first half of the defintiion qualifies his salary to be excessive. In regards to going beyond the reasonable/proper limit, obviously that's more subjective. Regardless, I still feel like I'm taking crazy pills when individuals attempt to justify this type of salary as not being excessive. :bang:
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Excessive
Excessive: Exceeding a normal, usual, reasonable, or proper limit.

Well clearly, I think we can all agree that the first half of the defintiion qualifies his salary to be excessive. In regards to going beyond the reasonable/proper limit, obviously that's more subjective. Regardless, I still feel like I'm taking crazy pills when individuals attempt to justify this type of salary as not being excessive. :bang:

yeah I don't agree with your socialist view of excessive. When someone does an above average job they should reap above average benefits otherwise everyone is motivated to do the bare minimum because they know no matter what their actions won't help them advance in their standing financially or otherwise. Look at the collapse of the socialist system in Russia it started out as a good idea when there was an ample work force doing their best for their country. That generation died out and a new generation that only did the minimum because they all got the same no matter how extraordinarily they performed ....there were no extraordinary people doing exceedingly well to support the slackers that were created by this system of everyone deserves to be in the same range of subjective normal that someone else decided. So is his salary above normal yes. Does it make it wrong or wasteful to reward extraordinary leadership and effort with above average wage? No it does not this is why our system still survives because everyone understands you have to work hard to do better than normal and to EARN better than normal. If you really want to have half your wages garnished to pay for everyone else go to Europe they'll tax you into the "normal" range that you believe everyone should be in. Otherwise deal with the fact that he deserves what he makes
 
The rate is about 60%. Though I wonder how the dean really impacts the recruiting of research faculty.

I can't imagine the dean personally recruits faculty, but I can see department heads/chiefs being intimately involved with it. Once again, good research brings in good money. Regardless of whether they are deserving, good money coming in = good salaries for those in charge.
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Excessive
Excessive: Exceeding a normal, usual, reasonable, or proper limit.

Well clearly, I think we can all agree that the first half of the defintiion qualifies his salary to be excessive. In regards to going beyond the reasonable/proper limit, obviously that's more subjective. Regardless, I still feel like I'm taking crazy pills when individuals attempt to justify this type of salary as not being excessive. :bang:

So your problem isn't really with the dean. It's with anyone who makes more than a million dollars. It's excessive. We should really divert most of their money toward making the government bigger. I agree.
 
Actually, as far as medical schools going tuition-free, I just read that Cleveland Clinic is doing it (starting this upcoming year or the year after, I think) to encourage future physicians to enter the field of academic medicine, which historically pays less than non-academic medicine (I think by 20-40K/year).

Sorry...I don't have the article anymore, so I can't reference it...

Anyhow, I see their point, but I don't necessarily agree with it. (I'm all about encouraging people to go into primary care, so this tuition-free stuff at institutions that train primarily specialists doesn't seem to help my goals, and medical schools that focus on training primary care physicians can't afford to go tuition-free, especially since many of them are public.)

the article was in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, I believe in May but it might have been April. You can check out the archives if interested.
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Excessive
Excessive: Exceeding a normal, usual, reasonable, or proper limit.

Well clearly, I think we can all agree that the first half of the defintiion qualifies his salary to be excessive. In regards to going beyond the reasonable/proper limit, obviously that's more subjective. Regardless, I still feel like I'm taking crazy pills when individuals attempt to justify this type of salary as not being excessive. :bang:
As someone who's in the field of medicine, you shouldn't be so concerned with what other physicians are pulling in. A million dollars a year? That's nothing compared to CEO's of Fortune 500 companies or hedge-fund managers, or some top-level ibankers. Why don't you focus your attention on those making over twenty million a year and leave the lowly doctors alone? I guarantee no practicing physician makes anything like what some of these other guys are pulling in, let's focus on dragging those guys down rather than our own profession down.
 
As someone who's in the field of medicine, you shouldn't be so concerned with what other physicians are pulling in. A million dollars a year? That's nothing compared to CEO's of Fortune 500 companies or hedge-fund managers, or some top-level ibankers. Why don't you focus your attention on those making over twenty million a year and leave the lowly doctors alone? I guarantee no practicing physician makes anything like what some of these other guys are pulling in, let's focus on dragging those guys down rather than our own profession down.

My point isn't to "drag" anyone down, it's to point out there individuals who make way in excess of what is justifiable (IMO). In a time when most individuals I know fight to scrape by in a struggling economy, salaries like the aforementioned seem absurd.

Furthermore, calling me a socialist and telling me to move to Europe's a bit extreme (previous poster, not the one I quoted); however, at the end of the day, individuals, with varying POVs, are going to see the situation in different lights (as clearly pointed out by this thread). Having said that, it's blatantly obvious that I'm not going to change your viewpoints and you're not going to change mine. Let's accept that fact and focus our enegry on something a little more productive (afterall, school starts in less than month...pass the ****in' Robbins :thumbdown:).
 
Dedikated2liftn said:
I don't care if he makes the majority of his money hooking the corner; an annual salary of 3 million dollars is excessive no matter how you look at it. Additionally, that sum of money doesn't just appear out of thin air; it's coming out of someone's pocket (students, patients, clients etc.). Kind of makes you wonder...that sum of money could go to a lot better use than lining the pockets of a single individual.
Uh, everyone who is paid by the university has their salary "come out of someone else's pocket." The dean is no different. If you have a problem with the amount of his salary, that's a bit different. I'm going to guess that if you cut his salary down to $500k/year and spread that extra $2.5 million around, everyone would probably get a $500 raise or probably even less. There is no way to quantify how much money the dean brings in doing whatever it is he does.

My point isn't to "drag" anyone down, it's to point out there individuals who make way in excess of what is justifiable (IMO). In a time when most individuals I know fight to scrape by in a struggling economy, salaries like the aforementioned seem absurd.
Why is it not justifiable? Comparing the UPenn school of medicine dean to some of your unemployed buddies is like comparing apples to camels, no offense. So far you have raised no substantive objection to his high salary other than some nebulous "gut-feeling" that it's "excessive." I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be arrogant enough to assume I know the inner-workings of UPenn. Thus I'll leave the decision as to the dean's salary up to the university itself rather than random medical students who think "whoa that's way more cash than I make ergo it is too much."
 
Uh, everyone who is paid by the university has their salary "come out of someone else's pocket." The dean is no different. If you have a problem with the amount of his salary, that's a bit different. I'm going to guess that if you cut his salary down to $500k/year and spread that extra $2.5 million around, everyone would probably get a $500 raise or probably even less. There is no way to quantify how much money the dean brings in doing whatever it is he does.

Why is it not justifiable? Comparing the UPenn school of medicine dean to some of your unemployed buddies is like comparing apples to camels, no offense. So far you have raised no substantive objection to his high salary other than some nebulous "gut-feeling" that it's "excessive." I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be arrogant enough to assume I know the inner-workings of UPenn. Thus I'll leave the decision as to the dean's salary up to the university itself rather than random medical students who think "whoa that's way more cash than I make ergo it is too much."


Yes, clearly that's the basis of my argument :rolleyes:. Secondly, my friends aren't unemployed (clearly I'm not the only one arrogant enough to be making assumptions), and newsflash, not everyone pulls in a physician's salary (or even anywhere close to it). As I said earlier, you've got your opinion, and I've got mine. So rather than sitting here making nasty remarks towards one another, why don't the both of us find something more productive to do.
 
Yes, clearly that's the basis of my argument :rolleyes:. Secondly, my friends aren't unemployed (clearly I'm not the only one arrogant enough to be making assumptions), and newsflash, not everyone pulls in a physician's salary (or even anywhere close to it). As I said earlier, you've got your opinion, and I've got mine. So rather than sitting here making nasty remarks towards one another, why don't the both of us find something more productive to do.
I'm arrogant enough to assume about your buddies, not arrogant enough to assume to know the inner-workings of UPenn school of medicine. :)

Anyway yeah I know I'm not going to change your mind. Why don't we both hold hands and get angry at hedge fund managers making over $1 billion a year?
 
Methinks that in about 2 very short years Dedikated2Lftn is going to be singing a very different tune.

Dedikated2Lftn as a 3rd year - "ANOTHER fecal disimpaction... Man I cannot WAIT to be making some REAL MONEY... They cannot possibly pay me enough... What, another Medicare cut? I'ma gonna go to DC and rough up some politicos..."
 
And your inevitable response that you're not talking about the modest doctor's salary but rather about the 'excessive' salary this Dean is pulling in is mired in your own opinions of what is and is not excessive. Starvin' Marvin might look at the salary of a US physician in much the same way that you look at Mr. Rubenstein's salary.

A Panda Bear paraphrase... Don't worry, no matter how little you value your own services to be worth there will be someone in your near future wanting to pay you less.

I applaud this Dean for getting his own. What you don't realize is that his large salary actually generates income for others. Who mows this man's lawn? Washes his sheets? Installs his high-def big screen? Changes the oil in his Lambourghini Countach?
 
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