ASA claims Anesthesiology must lead in diversity, equity, and inclusion

[Drägerman]

Sounds like ortho


What are the stats for AAs? I bet they’re similar to CRNAs.

From what I have seen, they are probably less diverse. I think the argument would have to stem from AA school pulling from a bigger applicant pool with less barriers (variety of degrees vs RN, no ICU time, etc)

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[agammaglobulin]

 

[agammaglobulin]

 

[agammaglobulin]

Source for above: AAMC for 2017

 

[deleted1147063]

We can talk about diversity and inclusion, preferably of cultures and viewpoints and knowledge, but, for those who missed their marxism lessons: equity is communism. Or one can call it "socialism", but it's the kind of undemocratic socialism one used to see only in communist countries, aka those with "socialist" in their official names.

Also, for most ears trained/experienced in marxism, a lot of this stuff sound like a communist dictatorship, aka Orwell's "1984", aka class struggle. Antiracism is racist, progressive has become regressive, diversity and inclusion based on "good" classes vs "bad" classes, "healthy" vs "unhealthy" origins etc. Plus all the Newspeak, Thought Police, doublethink, thoughtcrime etc. This whole idea of "if you're not with us you're against us" screams communist (and other) authoritarian thinking.

I strongly recommend reading that book (or watching the movie) before supporting some of these movements, regardless how decent and noble your intentions are. Or go read some Solzhenytsin. Those should give you an idea about the USSR, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and other democratic and prosperous communist societies. Orwell may have imagined it in 1949, but that's how life was in the communist bloc by the 1980's, and China and North Korea have taken it to new heights of dictatorship.

It's not by chance that this country has become prosperous by fighting communism and marxism, not supporting it. If you want a country where everybody is equally miserable, so you can envy your neighbor because he has an extra pair of shoes, this is the way. EQUITY!!! Keep supporting it, comrades. Your families and friends may end up not liking the results, and you, but since when do families matter when the Party calls? Report them! Anyway, like the progressives say, the nuclear family is a racist construct. It's much better when the State raises your kids, under the glorious guidance of our revolutionary workers' Party.

The grass is definitely greener in North Korea...

We're now returning to our usual DSA and CCP broadcast.

 

[Drwine]

Wanna know who doesn't care about DEI and the statistics to prove it?

the AANA

11% of RNs are men but 42% of NA's are male
69% of RNs are white but 84% of NA's are white

Highest paid nursing specialty has some kind of affirmative action for white and/or males it seems like. Kinda explains the problems that come up with supervising crNAs that female and minority anesthesiologists have.

edited to add links

Registered nurses | Data USA

Registered nurses are most often employed by the General medical and surgical hospitals, and specialty (except psychiatric and substance abuse) hospitals industry. The average yearly wage for Registered nurses was $71,424 in 2021.

datausa.io

Nurse anesthetists | Data USA

Nurse anesthetists are most often employed by the General medical and surgical hospitals, and specialty (except psychiatric and substance abuse) hospitals industry. The average yearly wage for Nurse anesthetists was $182,630 in 2021.

datausa.io

When you look a little deeper the statistics hide the fact that of black CRNAs a large number are immigrants. We hired a locum CRNA last year who was a black male who grew up in an inner city and over coffee he pointed out to me how rare he is in the CRNA profession.

My observation of being in anesthesiology over 40 years is that our profession has been a leader in creating a diverse work force. When I first started I met women who related the barriers they faced to move into leadership roles but that isn't the case today. The 3 groups that I worked with during my career welcomed everyone regardless of race, religion or sex and have had women and minorities in leadership roles. I have even joked that if Martians existed and they could be taught to give anesthesia we would hire them.

My first issue with the DEI message is that it isn't nuanced and the progress our profession has made in the last 2 generations isn't recognized.
The second is the priority that this has assumed.

 

[jwk]

Sounds like ortho


What are the stats for AAs? I bet they’re similar to CRNAs.

I don't know the actual stats, but judging from my own group and the students I come in contact with, we're pretty darn diverse, and have been for a very long time. Keep in mind most universities are very into DEI, and this would include those that sponsor AA programs.

 

[kidthor]

My observation of being in anesthesiology over 40 years is that our profession has been a leader in creating a diverse work force. When I first started I met women who related the barriers they faced to move into leadership roles but that isn't the case today. The 3 groups that I worked with during my career welcomed everyone regardless of race, religion or sex and have had women and minorities in leadership roles. I have even joked that if Martians existed and they could be taught to give anesthesia we would hire them.

In general I agree with you - anesthesiology as a field has one of the more diverse and inclusive workforces…. And anesthesiologists are thoughtful, caring people as a group.

That said I’ve also seen some disgusting behavior. I’ve seen people “other” undocumented immigrants at a safety net hospital and truly treat that group as an inferior group - to the extent they knowingly provide inferior care because “they can’t sue us anyway”.

I’ve also seen people in leadership positions actively reject applicants because of immutable characteristics - and this happens on both ends. Some people don’t want moms, gay people, or minorities. On the other end some don’t want any more white guys or actively hire only from URM groups. The truth is that people are illegally discriminating, even in anesthesia, and often out in the open. This behavior is not the norm but it happens regularly enough that I’ve seen it too many times.

As a group we often also see sketchy behavior by others but are disempowered to act. I remember witnessing some ortho bros repeatedly bragged about their boat “offshore drilling” and how they’d hook up with women on it. This behavior really traumatized some women who had to work in that room, yet nobody did anything - out of fear they’d be retaliated against. I’ve also heard of other horrible instances of sexual harassment and assault (eg telling women they need to provide favors for a promotion).

I don’t think we can ignore that these discriminatory and dehumanizing behaviors still exist. DEI can be done right by getting rid of the kinds of behavior I mentioned above. Unfortunately it’s being used as a weapon all too often now though.

My point is that DEI as a mission statement by the ASA is a good goal…. It’s illusory to suggest these issues aren’t still active ones, even in anesthesia. It’s just that DEI as executed currently can be weaponized to promote bizarre and discriminatory behavior in its own right.

 

[Fpg1245]

View attachment 361246

So if you check black, admissions are independent of MCAT and GPA.

I know what box I’ll have my kids check

 

[ambiturner]

When you look a little deeper the statistics hide the fact that of black CRNAs a large number are immigrants. We hired a locum CRNA last year who was a black male who grew up in an inner city and over coffee he pointed out to me how rare he is in the CRNA profession.

My observation of being in anesthesiology over 40 years is that our profession has been a leader in creating a diverse work force. When I first started I met women who related the barriers they faced to move into leadership roles but that isn't the case today. The 3 groups that I worked with during my career welcomed everyone regardless of race, religion or sex and have had women and minorities in leadership roles. I have even joked that if Martians existed and they could be taught to give anesthesia we would hire them.

My first issue with the DEI message is that it isn't nuanced and the progress our profession has made in the last 2 generations isn't recognized.
The second is the priority that this has assumed.

I think our field does a good job with DEI. Sure you can always do better and I guess that’s the basis of this statement. And maybe our field is more diverse because white men tend to pick more hero fields like surgery, cardiology etc. But how exactly do you change this? Aggressively recruit URM med students? Every other specialty is doing the same thing.

As other have pointed out, compare this to CRNAs/NPs - at our hospital over 90% are white women. Ortho is diverse compared to that.

 

[LaryngoSpazz]

And maybe our field is more diverse because white men tend to pick more hero fields like surgery, cardiology etc.

I agree with the general sentiment of your post. However the above quote could be mis-interpreted as a microaggression and make certain types feel less “included”

 

[ambiturner]

I agree with the general sentiment of your post. However the above quote could be mis-interpreted as a microaggression and make certain types feel less “included”

Is it better or worse if I’m a white man (who chose anesthesia over surgery cardiology etc)?

 

[Harpoon1]

So your premise is anesthesiologists should not be leaders in diversity, equity and inclusion.


You prefer undiversified, inequitable and exclusive?

More likely than not any merit/competency based profession will end up in some pattern of exclusivity and lack of diversity, at least to some degree. If by inequitable you mean the results are unfair, that is most likely true from someone's viewpoint. But if by inequitable you mean unjust, then I would absolutely disagree. I believe his premise to be that our professional organization exist to protect our profession (and all within it - regardless of their background) and not to undermine a competency based process with a politically constructed one.

 

[BLADEMDA]

More likely than not any merit/competency based profession will end up in some pattern of exclusivity and lack of diversity, at least to some degree. If by inequitable you mean the results are unfair, that is most likely true from someone's viewpoint. But if by inequitable you mean unjust, then I would absolutely disagree. I believe his premise to be that our professional organization exist to protect our profession (and all within it - regardless of their background) and not to undermine a competency based process with a politically constructed one.

That's correct. The ASA should be focused on issues that affect all of us in our professional lives. Particularly, legislative issues relating to scope of practice by midlevels, CMS reimbursement, NSA implications, non competes, etc. I am all FOR inclusion, diversity and promoting people based on merit. I am NOT for discriminating against a large group of people to accomplish DEI. DEI as practiced in 2022 is anything but "fair and equitable" for all groups of people. This agenda is about using outcomes rather than merit to make promotions or accept med students into residency positions. We can't move past race or see people as individuals if we only use race or gender as our marker for making decisions. The idea that equity or equitable means we will have the same outcomes for all groups is simply false in a merit based society. I don't support DEI because that is how the left and ASA leadership will discriminate against White or Asian Males.

 

[BLADEMDA]

"Race-based admissions standards at Harvard unfairly disadvantage higher achieving students and these policies go against our American values and divide us as a nation," said Kim, who said she would continue to share her community's perspective on the issue.

"All students should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and they should be charged on their merits and not be discriminated against because of their race or background," Kim said.

SUPREME COURT TO HEAR CASE THAT COULD END 40 YEARS OF RACE-BASED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN UNIVERSITY ADMISSIONS


"Asian American students with high grades, high test scores, lots of extracurricular activities were all consistently being rated by admissions officers as having not good characters, not having the fitness needed for a Harvard student. So they were using that kind of subjective evaluation to lower their admissions policy. I can't think of anything more racist than that," von Spakovsky said.

 

[BLADEMDA]

This is what DEI means in 2022. Those with lower test scores, lower objective standardized metrics will be given preferential hiring or promotion over those groups like White or Asian males. Rather than use merit, Race or Gender has become the metric upon which one gets a residency or leadership position. This is what has been going on throughout this nation and unless we stand up against it, the result is that race or gender becomes the ONLY Metric which matters for success. That is racism at its core.

 

[deleted1147063]

There is a reason communism became the dictatorship of the proletariat and pure hell, instead of Heaven on earth. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

This country has been so successful exactly because the founding fathers tried to learn from the mistakes and the history of ancient Greece and Rome. Human nature hasn't changed in 2,000 years. That's why the wealthy used to send their kids to prep schools where they were taught about the ancients. The most important science one should master is (mass) psychology and mass manipulation techniques. There is a reason neither of those are taught to (future) hoi-polloi voters.

Most people never understand how they are manipulated by the political class, played like a dumb violin in the hands of a skillful maestro. DEI is no exception. Trumpism is no exception.

Extremism is never good, whether on the left or on the right. The golden way is always somewhere in the middle.

Most human beings are decent, including anesthesiologists. There is no need for the ASA to do virtue signaling. They should rather concentrate on the real issues, such as the CRNA and private equity encroachment. DEI is just a diversion.

 

[deleted1147063]

I think most of us would be fine with DEI initiatives if there was any hard evidence at all that they actually make people less racist or more inclusive.

My guess is that it has mostly the complete opposite effect by highlighting peoples differences. If you’re a student in a DEI discussion and some of your potential friends admit they’re racist (by definition this is what these diversity initiatives make you so), or if you admit you think your entire school and class are inherently racist (again these are explicitly taught concepts in these course), do you think that this promotes friendship and acceptance between students of different backgrounds?

Maybe someone would say publicly it does but I doubt it does in practice.

It's a classic psychological manipulation technique.

It's the same as when they ask you, on the street, to sign that you support whatever initiative. One would think that admitting to something or supporting a position doesn't mean anything, but one's brain subconsciously commits to that position. If, in the future, one is exposed to the same kind of stimulus, one is much more likely to support that position again, because doing otherwise would create cognitive dissonance.

This has been known for long. All the communist regimes have used this brainwashing technique, for example the Chinese on American POWs during the Korean War. Even Orwell describes it, for example in Animal Farm: Four Feet Good, Two Feet Bad! Sounds familiar? Black Lives Matter! Make America Great Again!

I strongly recommend reading Cialdini, or Munger's famous talk at Harvard-Westlake college preparatory school. This is what he calls the inconsistency-avoidance tendency.

The Revised Psychology of Human Misjudgment, by Charlie Munger

In The Psychology of Human Misjudgment, Charlie Munger explains why we behave the way we do. This is a transcript of the fully updated talk.

fs.blog

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Also, for most ears trained/experienced in marxism, a lot of this stuff sound like a communist dictatorship, aka Orwell's "1984", aka class struggle. Antiracism is racist, progressive has become regressive, diversity and inclusion based on "good" classes vs "bad" classes, "healthy" vs "unhealthy" origins etc. Plus all the Newspeak, Thought Police, doublethink, thoughtcrime etc. This whole idea of "if you're not with us you're against us" screams communist (and other) authoritarian thinking.

Going to put this on my read list. Read Animal Farm along with my daughter and found it to be very profound and prophetic (which I think is more a sign that human nature and manipulation tactics have stayed the same.)

 

[BobLoblaw78]

My prideful self thinks it is insulting to say I can't be as good as another ethnic group in taking care of certain groups. I am willing to try harder, steal tricks and do whatever to be just as good (secretly I want to be better) at helping that group of people. I want everyone to think I do a good job and I can truly tell you that I am not holding back anything. I would venture a guess that most physicians practice this way. Ultimately, I feel that if someone is doing a better job then I need to try harder to be the best I can and hopefully I will get there. This is such a difficult subject to discuss without offending someone, somehow but.... I think if we focused more on putting in the time and effort to improve our performance then we would make it further than if we focus on other factors that we don't control. Then let the chips fall where they will

 

[BLADEMDA]

My prideful self thinks it is insulting to say I can't be as good as another ethnic group in taking care of certain groups. I am willing to try harder, steal tricks and do whatever to be just as good (secretly I want to be better) at helping that group of people. I want everyone to think I do a good job and I can truly tell you that I am not holding back anything. I would venture a guess that most physicians practice this way. Ultimately, I feel that if someone is doing a better job then I need to try harder to be the best I can and hopefully I will get there. This is such a difficult subject to discuss without offending someone, somehow but.... I think if we focused more on putting in the time and effort to improve our performance then we would make it further than if we focus on other factors that we don't control. Then let the chips fall where they will

DEI is all about NOT letting the chips fall where they will. It's about manipulating the system to get a desired outcome regardless of who gets hurt in the process. "Fairness" is now the buzz work along with "Equity" to determine who wins and who loses based on race/gender. White/Asian Male= Bad.
Black Female= Great. Black Male= Good. Does individualism, competency, skill and qualification even matter any longer?

 

[Harpoon1]

DEI is all about NOT letting the chips fall where they will. It's about manipulating the system to get a desired outcome regardless of who gets hurt in the process. "Fairness" is now the buzz work along with "Equity" to determine who wins and who loses based on race/gender. White/Asian Male= Bad.
Black Female= Great. Black Male= Good. Does individualism, competency, skill and qualification even matter any longer?

Add to that what we are setting less competent applicants up for in the end; it is not success.

Guess who pays for it? Everyone, including the applicant, save for the policymaker themselves, pays the penalty.

The policymaker has artificially drawn a more palatable pie chart and % numbers to show off at the next meeting or publication, (as if this is an actual outcome) while in denial of the real world situation it created. It enables the higher ups to send out their emails and letters bathed in the buzzwords of a political and social agenda, not an educational one.

 

[Twiggidy]

I'll just come out and say it......before George Floyd was choked to death, this black male cardiac trained echo certified anesthesiologist with no negative marks on his profile could barely get a return phone call when I sent out my CV. Now I actually have choices. Sorry, not sorry, I have no problem with DEI initiatives.

 

[Twiggidy]

I have a lot of respect for you, but you have to consider all the damage that's been done by affirmative action to the reputation of good black doctors in this country. And DEI will do the same, even worse. Just food for thought.

As somebody discriminated for having a "weird" name and being a minority my entire life, even in my home country, my opinion is that playing the victim card is the worst choice that a group or individual can make.

Even if someone looks down on me because they think I’m an Affirmative action case (even if I may be) ….you can’t affirmative action your way through med school test, the USMLE, or specialty boards…..so really that’s a THEM problem. I took that baton and ran a mile with it and have MD after my name now. Two episodes of Seinfeld and maybe a cookie…..that’s how I sleep at night.

 

[sevo00]

I'll just come out and say it......before George Floyd was choked to death, this black male cardiac trained echo certified anesthesiologist with no negative marks on his profile could barely get a return phone call when I sent out my CV. Now I actually have choices. Sorry, not sorry, I have no problem with DEI initiatives.

I think that has more to do with How the anesthesia market is now. Not with George Floyd. A lot of people were having trouble finding jobs just a few years ago. Now recruiters emailing every hour

 

[anbuitachi]

Wanna know who doesn't care about DEI and the statistics to prove it?

the AANA

11% of RNs are men but 42% of NA's are male
69% of RNs are white but 84% of NA's are white

Highest paid nursing specialty has some kind of affirmative action for white and/or males it seems like. Kinda explains the problems that come up with supervising crNAs that female and minority anesthesiologists have.

edited to add links

Registered nurses | Data USA

Registered nurses are most often employed by the General medical and surgical hospitals, and specialty (except psychiatric and substance abuse) hospitals industry. The average yearly wage for Registered nurses was $71,424 in 2021.

datausa.io

Nurse anesthetists | Data USA

Nurse anesthetists are most often employed by the General medical and surgical hospitals, and specialty (except psychiatric and substance abuse) hospitals industry. The average yearly wage for Nurse anesthetists was $182,630 in 2021.

datausa.io

they definitely dont care about DEI, otherwise it wont be 11 % of RN are men. it'd be closer to 50 50.

 

[anbuitachi]

No argument on the bolded, but you know that the ASA can included more goals than just those two things right?

(Not directed at you jqueb29 )Jesus some of y'all are WAYYYYYYYYYY too sensitive about diversity, equity and inclusion.

they can but they do such a ****ty job at advocating for anesthesiologists. crnas are walking and have been walking all over them for years. they should probably remain focused

 

[anbuitachi]

Even if someone looks down on me because they think I’m an Affirmative action case (even if I may be) ….you can’t affirmative action your way through med school test, the USMLE, or specialty boards…..so really that’s a THEM problem. I took that baton and ran a mile with it and have MD after my name now. Two episodes of Seinfeld and maybe a cookie…..that’s how I sleep at night.

step 1 is pass fail. its not that hard to pass exams, its hard to do well in them. exam standards can be constantly changed.

 

[MirrorTodd]

they can but they do such a ****ty job at advocating for anesthesiologists. crnas are walking and have been walking all over them for years. they should probably remain focused

Def can't argue with that.

 

[chocomorsel]

What problem do female and minority anesthesiologists have supervising CRNAs?

Well, we get a lot of attitude thrown our way. Simply because we exist.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't know the actual stats, but judging from my own group and the students I come in contact with, we're pretty darn diverse, and have been for a very long time. Keep in mind most universities are very into DEI, and this would include those that sponsor AA programs.

It helps that you live in a black city. When I interviewed for my fellowship at a black city, I was in awe at the number of black doctors I saw. Of course I immediately signed up.

 

[chocomorsel]

I'll just come out and say it......before George Floyd was choked to death, this black male cardiac trained echo certified anesthesiologist with no negative marks on his profile could barely get a return phone call when I sent out my CV. Now I actually have choices. Sorry, not sorry, I have no problem with DEI initiatives.

Why did it take so long for you to say this? Scared of hurting people's feelings? We POC know the truth.

 

[chocomorsel]

And this thread is one of the reasons I am so happy to be moving back to the Motherland. I can't believe some of y'all. Oh, actually I can.

It's nice to walk into a hospital and all the doctors are black or brown. And the rest of the staff. And most of the patients. I don't feel out of place.

I walked into a doctor's lounge in the midst of the George Floyd protests all conversation ceased. In a hospital where I was the only black OR doc. I started a thread on here about it, and there was so much hate that it got deleted and went to 4 or so pages quickly before getting deleted. It's quite easy to be called racist when you talk about things that actually happen to you due to your race and the White people get uncomfortable and call you the problem. My abrasive personality online is far from who I am in real life. This a great place to let out frustrations.

BTW, I got into medical school with a 23 on my MCAT. Or was it a 21? So long ago I don't really remember.
You know what else happened? I didn't fail. Most of us with these poor MCAT scores did just fine and graduated.

Studies show improved outcomes when the doctor with the same background treats POC and patients prefer this. Also the women surgeon study less death better outcome study. But some of us are just going to ignore that.

One last thing, the person in the bottom of medical school is still a medical doctor.

 

[nimbus]

"Race-based admissions standards at Harvard unfairly disadvantage higher achieving students and these policies go against our American values and divide us as a nation," said Kim, who said she would continue to share her community's perspective on the issue.

"All students should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and they should be charged on their merits and not be discriminated against because of their race or background," Kim said.

SUPREME COURT TO HEAR CASE THAT COULD END 40 YEARS OF RACE-BASED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN UNIVERSITY ADMISSIONS


"Asian American students with high grades, high test scores, lots of extracurricular activities were all consistently being rated by admissions officers as having not good characters, not having the fitness needed for a Harvard student. So they were using that kind of subjective evaluation to lower their admissions policy. I can't think of anything more racist than that," von Spakovsky said.

The bigger problem I have with Harvard is that they give lip service to DEI during admissions but 70% of their undergrads end up going into finance and consulting. So their input is diverse but their output is extremely homogenized. They take a group of diverse idealistic kids and turn them into consultants (giving advice to tobacco companies and dictators), bankers and PE bros.

 

[doctalaughs]

BTW, I got into medical school with a 23 on my MCAT. Or was it a 21? So long ago I don't really remember.

So why should an Asian student with 2 standard deviations above this score struggle to get admitted?

What if that student was 7/8 Asian and 1/8 black. Are they allowed to check the black box and get a massive boost in their chances? Where is the cutoff in skin tone?

AA creates so many problems, least of which is increased polarization of society. It plays right into Trump’s narrative.

Maybe you are an awesome doctor (no one knows on an online forum). But that is still anecdotal and things like MCAT and test scores are the only objective measure there is for admissions.

Harvard is rightly in for a reckoning tomorrow. How is what they are doing any different than the “Jew quota” that they and many colleges employed in the early part of the last century?

 

[chocomorsel]

So why should an Asian student with 2 standard deviations above this score struggle to get admitted?

What if that student was 7/8 Asian and 1/8 black. Are they allowed to check the black box and get a massive boost in their chances? Where is the cutoff in skin tone?

AA creates so many problems, least of which is increased polarization of society. It plays right into Trump’s narrative.

Maybe you are an awesome doctor (no one knows on an online forum). But that is still anecdotal and things like MCAT and test scores are the only objective measure there is for admissions.

Harvard is rightly in for a reckoning tomorrow. How is what they are doing any different than the “Jew quota” that they and many colleges employed in the early part of the last century?

I don’t know. I didn’t create the problem. I was part of the solution. The problem was not created by my people. It was created by racism and classism exhibited by the Caucasian forefathers.

Thank you. I am an awesome doctor and was an amazing applicant outside of a crappy MCAT. And the MCAT score clearly is not a great predictor of how people are going to do in medical school given the stats. It’s a correlated with Step 1 but since that’s a now pass/fail maybe they need to come up with another method.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I don’t know. I didn’t create the problem. I was part of the solution. The problem was not created by my people. It was created by racism and classism exhibited by the Caucasian forefathers.

Thank you. I am an awesome doctor and was an amazing applicant outside of a crappy MCAT. And the MCAT score clearly is not a great predictor of how people are going to do in medical school given the stats. It’s a correlated with Step 1 but since that’s a now pass/fail maybe they need to come up with another method.

I realize this nation needs to do better in terms of people of color. I had come to terms with affirmative action as a necessary evil for most of my life. I recognize that we as a society needed to use education to raise the bar for a segment of the population which has historically been discriminated against.
‘But, DEI is affirmative action at an entirely new level. It’s affirmative action on steroids and discriminates against qualified professionals who have already passed the appropriate exams or graduated college. Unlike affirmative action, I don’t believe DEI is necessary nor constitutional in the way it is implemented today. Rather than progress towards a color blind society, DEI cements race or gender as the primary reason for success in America.

Any qualified anesthesiologist regardless of race can get a good job today. The question is does that anesthesiologist of color want to work for that group or in that location and not the other way around.

 

[chocomorsel]

I realize this nation needs to do better in terms of people of color. I had come to terms with affirmative action as a necessary evil for most of my life. I recognize that we as a society needed to use education to raise the bar for a segment of the population which has historically been discriminated against.
‘But, DEI is affirmative action at an entirely new level. It’s affirmative action on steroids and discriminates against qualified professionals who have already passed the appropriate exams or graduated college. Unlike affirmative action, I don’t believe DEI is necessary nor constitutional in the way it is implemented today. Rather than progress towards a color blind society, DEI cements race or gender as the primary reason for success in America.

Any qualified anesthesiologist regardless of race can get a good job today. The question is does that anesthesiologist of color want to work for that group or in that location and not the other way around.

Did you see @Twiggidy’s post above about the post George Floyd change?
And TBH when POC look for jobs, many of us don’t want to be the token POC in a job. So sometimes we turn jobs down because we want to be alone per say even in a good group.
I personally don’t care when I do locums but I would likely never want to be the only woman or POC in a group. While it is a hell of a lot difference in PP versus residency I am still very traumatized by the racism I experienced in residency as the third Black person to go thru there ever.
These are things people like you never have to think about.

 

[doctalaughs]

Did you see @Twiggidy’s post above about the post George Floyd change?
And TBH when POC look for jobs, many of us don’t want to be the token POC in a job. So sometimes we turn jobs down because we want to be alone per say even in a good group.
I personally don’t care when I do locums but I would likely never want to be the only woman or POC in a group. While it is a hell of a lot difference in PP versus residency I am still very traumatized by the racism I experienced in residency as the third Black person to go thru there ever.
These are things people like you never have to think about.

Since AA and more recently DEI has gained huge momentum - and you think it’s a positive thing, why are you leaving the country?

If you think these movements are positive and good for the country, I would assume you think we are making major progress compared to decades ago?

I’m just curious - maybe you are leaving for totally different reasons but it sounded to me like you were fed up with the direction/policies of the country in relation to black Americans. I personally think these policies are terrible for everyone (including POC) — but that’s my opinion.

 

[chocomorsel]

Since AA and more recently DEI has gained huge momentum - and you think it’s a positive thing, why are you leaving the country?

If you think these movements are positive and good for the country, I would assume you think we are making major progress compared to decades ago?

I’m just curious - maybe you are leaving for totally different reasons but it sounded to me like you were fed up with the direction/policies of the country in relation to black Americans. I personally think these policies are terrible for everyone (including POC) — but that’s my opinion.

Lots of reasons. But one of them is yeah, I am tired of being a “minority” and America has lots of negatives that people don’t talk much about. I also grew up and realized there was more to life than making a ton of money. I love my developing country and am currently here applying for licensure, buying property and getting ready to build a hospital starting next year. Will start off a clinic but eventually a hospital. We got plenty of docs in the US. And it’s served the purpose my dad brought me there to serve. And it’s going downhill in my opinion.
America is not for the weak. I am ready for a softer, more communal life that is a lot less lonely.

 

[LaryngoSpazz]

Well, we get a lot of attitude thrown our way. Simply because we exist.

How do you know that’s a skin color or female thing? We all get a lot of attitude from CRNAs, because well they are CRNAs…

 

[chocomorsel]

How do you know that’s a skin color or female thing? We all get a lot of attitude from CRNAs, because well they are CRNAs…

Because this a known fact that these things happen more to female and black docs. For me more so my sex, then add color and that takes it up a notch.
Why is it when a POC talks about the crap they experience someone usually a White person always tries to downplay stuff like “well it happens to me too” in order to discredit them.
How about you don’t discredit my experience and I don’t discredit yours. How about you talk to your female and POC colleagues and learn about their experiences.
Because clearly you think we live in a colorblind sex blind society. Sure.
Yeah, I am sure it is all in our heads.
Bye

 

[Zekchar]

I'll just come out and say it......before George Floyd was choked to death, this black male cardiac trained echo certified anesthesiologist with no negative marks on his profile could barely get a return phone call when I sent out my CV. Now I actually have choices. Sorry, not sorry, I have no problem with DEI initiatives.

I'll just come out and say it too .... I don't believe you.

We all have choices. I doubt you were applying for the 4 upstate New York rural jobs that have been looking for ages. You not getting your specified job in your narrow search is the more likely path that was taken.

Anecdotal stories are not evidence.

 

[deleted1147063]

Because this a known fact that these things happen more to female and black docs. For me more so my sex, then add color and that takes it up a notch.
Why is it when a POC talks about the crap they experience someone usually a White person always tries to downplay stuff like “well it happens to me too” in order to discredit them.
How about you don’t discredit my experience and I don’t discredit yours. How about you talk to your female and POC colleagues and learn about their experiences.
Because clearly you think we live in a colorblind sex blind society. Sure.
Yeah, I am sure it is all in our heads.
Bye

I"ll say the same thing I said to Twiggidy: this is what happens in the world of affirmative action, equity etc. One can't have it both ways. If belonging to a "protected group" gives one clear advantages, then people will assume that most members of that group don't deserve their achievements.

One of the advantages of a transparent meritocracy, like they have in some countries, is that nobody will question one's competence. I am a minority in my native country, I look different, my name is different, and yet I was rarely if ever disrespected at my workplace (much more often outside of work, by people who didn't know me, because people are dumb).

I get more disrespect from CRNAs and OR staff as an American anesthesiologist than I ever got as a resident doctor in my native country. I just assume it's envy, not xenophobia (or other group-based preconception), and move on. I refuse to think about myself as a victim, because that usually discourages one from looking for what might be the real problem, and stunts personal growth.

Just food for thought (n=1). And what's coming in the elections is mostly not racism, sexism, revisionism etc. It's people getting tired of some people being more equal than others. Envy is a very strong human incentive. I still think that most people are decent, though uneducated, sheep.

Also, when some things seem to never work out for one, one may just need a new set of friends who see the world and one differently. E.g. if one wants to lose weight, maybe one shouldn't hang out just with people who can't lose weight and rationalize that being seriously overweight is a good thing. If one is unhappy at the workplace, one should look for a better one, maybe in a completely different corner of the country, or of the world. In the end, we only need a few nice people to surround us with, in a nice little corner of the world, and all the haters can go to hell.

 

[deleted1147063]

Lots of reasons. But one of them is yeah, I am tired of being a “minority” and America has lots of negatives that people don’t talk much about. I also grew up and realized there was more to life than making a ton of money. I love my developing country and am currently here applying for licensure, buying property and getting ready to build a hospital starting next year. Will start off a clinic but eventually a hospital. We got plenty of docs in the US. And it’s served the purpose my dad brought me there to serve. And it’s going downhill in my opinion.
America is not for the weak. I am ready for a softer, more communal life that is a lot less lonely.

I envy you for being able to do that. I expect you'll be much happier (overall). Go where your people are. Americans are among the most tolerant peoples in the world, on a relative scale, but on an absolute scale they are still intolerant. Humans usually are.

It's very hard to change a system. It's much easier to find a better system (for oneself), where one has Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

 

[chocomorsel]

I envy you for being able to do that. I expect you'll be much happier (overall). Go where your people are. Americans are among the most tolerant peoples in the world, on a relative scale, but on an absolute scale they are still intolerant. Humans usually are.

It's very hard to change a system. It's much easier to find a better system (for oneself), where one has Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

Thank you.
And you are back! Welcome.

 

[deleted1147063]

Thank you.
And you are back! Welcome.

Thank you. Hopefully wiser, not just older.

 

[chocomorsel]

I"ll say the same thing I said to Twiggidy: this is what happens in the world of affirmative action, equity etc. One can't have it both ways. If belonging to a "protected group" gives one clear advantages, then people will assume that most members of that group don't deserve their achievements.

One of the advantages of a transparent meritocracy, like they have in some countries, is that nobody will question one's competence. I am a minority in my native country, I look different, my name is different, and yet I was rarely if ever disrespected at my workplace (much more often outside of work, by people who didn't know me, because people are dumb).

I get more disrespect from CRNAs and OR staff as an American anesthesiologist than I ever got as a resident doctor in my native country. I just assume it's envy, not xenophobia (or other group-based preconception), and move on. I refuse to think about myself as a victim, because that usually discourages one from looking for what might be the real problem, and stunts personal growth.

Just food for thought (n=1). And what's coming in the elections is mostly not racism, sexism, revisionism etc. It's people getting tired of some people being more equal than others. Envy is a very strong human incentive. I still think that most people are decent, though uneducated, sheep.

Also, when some things seem to never work out for one, one may just need a new set of friends who see the world and one differently. E.g. if one wants to lose weight, maybe one shouldn't hang out just with people who can't lose weight and rationalize that being seriously overweight is a good thing. If one is unhappy at the workplace, one should look for a better one, maybe in a completely different corner of the country, or of the world. In the end, we only need a few nice people to surround us with, in a nice little corner of the world, and all the haters can go to hell.

And people getting tired of women being more equal and therefore fighting against womens rights?
This is not the country for me. I started realizing that in my early 30s during residency when I really woke up to the fact of how truly “black” I was. And one cannot say that POC are viewed more equitably when the facts remain that systemic racism still exists today.
It’s not playing victim. It’s understanding and dealing with the reality of the cards you been dealt.
I am going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Because to be honest I have fought with you too much in the past and I have no more energy for it.

 

[deleted1147063]

And people getting tired of women being more equal and therefore fighting against womens rights?
This is not the country for me. I started realizing that in my early 30s during residency when I really woke up to the fact of how truly “black” I was. And one cannot say that POC are viewed more equitably when the facts remain that systemic racism still exists today.
It’s not playing victim. It’s understanding and dealing with the reality of the cards you been dealt.
I am going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Because to be honest I have fought with you too much in the past and I have no more energy for it.

I don't want to fight either. That's why I said "just food for thought".

I don't think people fight "against women's rights". There are quite a lot of women among them. I think everybody fights for what they think it's right. The problem is that people just label each other, instead of sitting down and finding a compromise nobody is perfectly happy with. And then a better one. And then a better one. And so on...

That's what democracy should be about. Instead of "just you wait till it's my turn, I'll show you".

 

[chocomorsel]

I'll just come out and say it too .... I don't believe you.

We all have choices. I doubt you were applying for the 4 upstate New York rural jobs that have been looking for ages. You not getting your specified job in your narrow search is the more likely path that was taken.

Anecdotal stories are not evidence.

Tell me you are ignorant about a black man’s struggle without telling me you are ignorant. Even a highly educated black man.
He doesn’t have to prove anymore to you than he already has. That’s the thing. As black people and POC we are constantly having to prove ourselves . Onus is always on us to prove discrimination when study after study shows it exists. While the majority get benefit of the doubt. And now an ethical human being from what I have seen based on his time here is being called a straight liar because he is experiencing racism/discrimination of some sort and someone is downplaying and dismissing his experience.
And you wonder why he took a while to say something.
Some of y’all just choose to stay ignorant. Do you really think when you put crap like this down?