ASA claims Anesthesiology must lead in diversity, equity, and inclusion

[Neopolymath]

So why don’t we simply give some extra points for those low on the socioeconomic ladder instead of brining race into it at all?

All schools get detailed tax/financial info from families to determine aid- it would be the simplest thing to use this info and erase the race thing completely.

Because right now with the current AA system we ARE penalizing poor people (just ones of certain skin tones- while advantaging others).

I have no desire to comment my opinion on the ongoing thread about racism, DEI, and AA in general but I do want to say that every single minority in my med school class was rich. I didn't realize that was a thing until speaking with a few other people at different institutions who noticed the same thing. Gives me more questions than answers...

So my completely serious question is if a rich as hell Nigerian is actually going to go to some poor community and take care of poor blacks? I'm from what many consider a black city so it's hard to tell. Same for some rich guy from Mexico or whatever you want to include.

Finally, I could buy minority physician-same minority patient outcomes in primary care are better than otherwise. Primary care is basically trying to herd cats. Anything has to help a little toward getting a bunch of ridiculous people to be compliant and thus have better outcomes. I really don't buy a 5 minute pre-op chat from a same minority anesthesiologist changing real outcomes even if I do believe it would create a rapport more reliably.

Anyways, I don't really have any answers and mostly just wonder why people can't just be decent to one another and move along with their day.

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[BLADEMDA]

I have no desire to comment my opinion on the ongoing thread about racism, DEI, and AA in general but I do want to say that every single minority in my med school class was rich. I didn't realize that was a thing until speaking with a few other people at different institutions who noticed the same thing. Gives me more questions than answers...

So my completely serious question is if a rich as hell Nigerian is actually going to go to some poor community and take care of poor blacks? I'm from what many consider a black city so it's hard to tell. Same for some rich guy from Mexico or whatever you want to include.

Finally, I could buy minority physician-same minority patient outcomes in primary care are better than otherwise. Primary care is basically trying to herd cats. Anything has to help a little toward getting a bunch of ridiculous people to be compliant and thus have better outcomes. I really don't buy a 5 minute pre-op chat from a same minority anesthesiologist changing real outcomes even if I do believe it would create a rapport more reliably.

Anyways, I don't really have any answers and mostly just wonder why people can't just be decent to one another and move along with their day.

we were moving in right direction in the 1990s, early 2000s, up to around 2010. Then, began the shift towards race, not away from it, as the defining metric of who you are as a person. This was rather self-serving on the behalf of some, not all, on the very left of the of the Democrat Party. Like a cancer, it began to invade every segment of society. Now, all we see are people's skin color regardless of their multi-racial heritage. We are a melting pot and as the decades pass more and more children will be mutliracial/multi-ethnic. That's a good thing in a metric based society where we see each other as individuals not members of racial/ethnic groups. I don't see or think of black people as "all the same." I see the inherent differences in people and they are big. From Stacy Abrams, Kanye West, to Candace Owens these PEOPLE have very little in common except their skin color. The same thing occurs in the "hispanic" community, Muslim community, etc. That's not how our government or large institutions see it today. Unless you check the right box, you aren't going to Harvard, or Medical School, or getting into that elite pre-school.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I have no desire to comment my opinion on the ongoing thread about racism, DEI, and AA in general but I do want to say that every single minority in my med school class was rich. I didn't realize that was a thing until speaking with a few other people at different institutions who noticed the same thing. Gives me more questions than answers...

So my completely serious question is if a rich as hell Nigerian is actually going to go to some poor community and take care of poor blacks? I'm from what many consider a black city so it's hard to tell. Same for some rich guy from Mexico or whatever you want to include.

Finally, I could buy minority physician-same minority patient outcomes in primary care are better than otherwise. Primary care is basically trying to herd cats. Anything has to help a little toward getting a bunch of ridiculous people to be compliant and thus have better outcomes. I really don't buy a 5 minute pre-op chat from a same minority anesthesiologist changing real outcomes even if I do believe it would create a rapport more reliably.

Anyways, I don't really have any answers and mostly just wonder why people can't just be decent to one another and move along with their day.

That has been my experience in the last decade as well. Most POC applicants that residency programs are fighting to recruit are the ones who have immigrated and are first generation Americans. It is uncommon to see a POC candidate that is a multi generational American citizen and grew up in a disadvantaged environment.
Regrettably, the people that this is designed to help are getting pushed out yet again.

 

[doctalaughs]

That has been my experience in the last decade as well. Most POC applicants that residency programs are fighting to recruit are the ones who have immigrated and are first generation Americans. It is uncommon to see a POC candidate that is a multi generational American citizen and grew up in a disadvantaged environment.
Regrettably, the people that this is designed to help are getting pushed out yet again.

Yep. Although the left likes to portray the pushback on DEI initiatives (including AA) as a product of ignorance, racism etc—- they can’t fathom that a large majority of Americans are just not buying it, and feel strongly about it (although not vocal in public for fear of being cancelled).

This is one of several major reasons they are going to get destroyed in these midterms— and really it’s very predictable. If they stay with these narratives/policies I see them losing the presidency in 2 years as well, which is a shame since Trump is absolutely terrible for this country and is likely still the repub candidate.

 

[nimbus]

That has been my experience in the last decade as well. Most POC applicants that residency programs are fighting to recruit are the ones who have immigrated and are first generation Americans. It is uncommon to see a POC candidate that is a multi generational American citizen and grew up in a disadvantaged environment.
Regrettably, the people that this is designed to help are getting pushed out yet again.

The same is true for White, Middle Eastern, and Asian applicants too. My med school class was full of doctor kids, many 1st, 1.5, or 2nd generation. This was in the late 1980s.

 

[nimbus]

I have no desire to comment my opinion on the ongoing thread about racism, DEI, and AA in general but I do want to say that every single minority in my med school class was rich. I didn't realize that was a thing until speaking with a few other people at different institutions who noticed the same thing. Gives me more questions than answers...

So my completely serious question is if a rich as hell Nigerian is actually going to go to some poor community and take care of poor blacks? I'm from what many consider a black city so it's hard to tell. Same for some rich guy from Mexico or whatever you want to include.

Finally, I could buy minority physician-same minority patient outcomes in primary care are better than otherwise. Primary care is basically trying to herd cats. Anything has to help a little toward getting a bunch of ridiculous people to be compliant and thus have better outcomes. I really don't buy a 5 minute pre-op chat from a same minority anesthesiologist changing real outcomes even if I do believe it would create a rapport more reliably.

Anyways, I don't really have any answers and mostly just wonder why people can't just be decent to one another and move along with their day.

Inequity is built into the system from the beginning to the end. All these institutions have DEI initiatives, at the same time they have this.


The Doctor Is In. Co-Pay? $40,000. (Published 2017)



Founded for the Poor, Mass General Looks to the Wealthy (Published 2016)

 

[Zekchar]

I hear you and largely agree. The hard thing is that federal money and teachers can do only so much.

I actually was a high school teacher in an underserved area before medicine for a few years through one of the larger nonprofit orgs that recruited the “best” via federal grants etc. It was a rough area and I put in a lot of time/effort those years.

Unfortunately, I came away with a pretty jaded and changed view after those years. By high school (9th grade), these kids are not really “helpable” no matter the resources you give. They had zero interest in doing any of the work, and a terrible attitude (major disrespect for teachers- I got sworn at daily and even assaulted). Really the schools at that point can make maybe 2-3% difference; it’s not like the kids are interested or motivated to do test prep, do any homework or even listen/attend class. I taught math to probably a thousand kids in that underserved school and estimate maybe 5 were motivated (to a level which is the “normal” at my childrens high school) and benefited from my guidance.

Possibly earlier education (elementary) can make a bigger impact but I’m still estimating 10% at most. Really it’s 90% parents, home life, and cultural impact. Which is a tougher nut to crack. If the parents don’t care (ie won’t answer repeated messages, yell/disrespect teachers just like the kids, drop off kids high/drunk etc I’ve seen it all and widely)— there’s not a lot outside intervention will achieve.

But no, giving extra points for skin color is also not the answer. We have to find a way to motivate these populations and change cultures to actually value education. Maybe actually give federal money for good test scores and grades which might help their home life and families?

Might I give a book suggestion. It was truly eye opening to me.

The Battle for Room 314: My Year of Hope and Despair in a New York City High School​

 

[chocomorsel]

That has been my experience in the last decade as well. Most POC applicants that residency programs are fighting to recruit are the ones who have immigrated and are first generation Americans. It is uncommon to see a POC candidate that is a multi generational American citizen and grew up in a disadvantaged environment.
Regrettably, the people that this is designed to help are getting pushed out yet again.

I cannot speak on what is currently happening now but this was not my medical school class. Yes there were a few Africans but we were not wealthy. Only two out of 16 that I can think of that we’re upper middle class.
I doubt what you speak of is the norm but it could be changing. There have gotta be stats somewhere.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I cannot speak on what is currently happening now but this was not my medical school class. Yes there were a few Africans but we were not wealthy. Only two out of 16 that I can think of that we’re upper middle class.
I doubt what you speak of is the norm but it could be changing. There have gotta be stats somewhere.

I don’t necessarily agree with the wealthy part of the argument but the recent immigrants tend to be the best and brightest from their home countries and the ones with the most drive and motivation.
I think that the most academically competitive applicants among POC tend to be those who have immigrated from Africa within the past two decades. In my experience, there are very few competitive candidates who fit the bill of disadvantaged multi generational American POC. There are certainly exceptions to this, and those outstanding candidates are in even higher demand because of it. Meanwhile, recent (1-2 generations) immigrants from Africa are getting scarfed up by residency programs to try to have some semblance of diversity. I see it in the CRNA world as well.
It seems to me that this phenomenon further hurts those it was intended to help.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don’t necessarily agree with the wealthy part of the argument but the recent immigrants tend to be the best and brightest from their home countries and the ones with the most drive and motivation.
I think that the most academically competitive applicants among POC tend to be those who have immigrated from Africa within the past two decades. In my experience, there are very few competitive candidates who fit the bill of disadvantaged multi generational American POC. There are certainly exceptions to this, and those outstanding candidates are in even higher demand because of it. Meanwhile, recent (1-2 generations) immigrants from Africa are getting scarfed up by residency programs to try to have some semblance of diversity. I see it in the CRNA world as well.
It seems to me that this phenomenon further hurts those it was intended to help.

Ok. I see. I thought you meant rich POC. About half of our Black students in residency were Africans.