Attendings who keep their medical school students until 5pm

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Thank you for taking some of us medical students seriously instead of many others who think we're a bunch of lazy, whiny students and should just suck it up because it has "always been like that" (no, it hasn't). I personally, again, love to work hard, be diligent, and punctual for the sake of professionalism and a proper clerkship education, but why even bother anymore when we have no legitimate roles under an increasingly stressed system? My notes are fake practice (partly due to EMR because now everything is tracked so it's more cumbersome to authenticate new users and allow residents to use/tweak our notes for actual use), my exams are redundant (but often more existent than residents' exams but overlooked), my presentations hardly ever exist, my exposure to procedures is completely resident/attending based and is often nil...you see our point? All those books that talk about how to "do well" on the wards...how can we when at many sites we do not even have a chance to experientially learn and prove ourselves? Hence, my point about how the formal post-rotation student evaluations these days are also often incredibly vague and hardly distinguish one student from another in many respects: "Diligent. Hard-worker. Keep reading.". And hence my point that in the end, BOARDS ARE ALL THAT MATTER in weeding applicants apart INITIALLY; thus, my point about us wanting to just go home and study in a proper manner (resources only at our disposal outside the hospital) than spend 12+ hours standing around. Step 1/2 matter so much more nowadays.

I think it's a little bit of everything compounding the problem. I'm not sure what percentage of M3's/DO/MD clinical sites are associated with it, but I definitely believe the increasingly litigiousness nature of American healthcare/malpractice and the increasing demands of patients (and "prospective patients") lead to even less incentive for medical students to hold a more substantial role on the wards. Why should I be taught how to properly suture--thinks the surgeon--if the surgeon is concerned the suture won't hold properly in the wrong hands, giving him possibly more work to correct later? Why should residents teach when they themselves are burdened by ever more disgruntled patients, increasing debt burden, and no incentive to teach unless they so individually desire? (Also: Patients who basically get free care: "Why should I have to wait and sit through this student's interview? Can I see the doctor instead? I've been waiting a whole 30 minutes...") I've had some amazing residents and preceptors who took it upon themselves to teach/pimp, but oftentimes these experiences are few and far between.

Additionally—and I'm not sure I've heard others elaborate on this—but I also believe the persistently exponentially changing roles of each specialty contribute to the difficulty in teaching and difficulty in providing an accurate picture of a specialty 5-10 years before said medical student actually becomes an attending in that already-changed field. For example—and this stretches on the time spans—but back in the day, family physicians especially in the countryside used to perform appendectomies, c-sections, vasectomies, and more minor office procedures; nowadays, though it still exists, it is hard to find and even more difficult to find that training actually used in daily practice. Heck, some family practice physicians even go so far as to not do any procedures, or see any children, or do any OB/GYN, and stick to adults...ie. "internal medicine". Or, e.g., OBGYNs used to do amniocenteses; now that they're less commonly done, the MFM-trained OBGYNs basically do them. Or, e.g., Interventional Radiology performs some procedures whereas back in the day other specialties would. Or, e.g., increasingly used interventional, non-surgical procedures provide for situations to replace historically surgical treatments. And so on...

I think it is multi-factorial. In no particular order:
1) EMR has made it less convenient for students to do notes. Not impossible, as some sites are set up for it, but definitely not as easy as pen and paper days. It is worthwhile pointing out, though, that medical student notes were never supposed to be used for anything, at least not in the last 15 years. Some residents and attendings would use them, but this was actually against Joint Commission and billing guidelines. Students can contribute PMFSHx, but that is about it, technically speaking.

2) CPOE. Electonic ordering has essentially removed the ability for students to write orders that are then consigned by a resident. It is still possible, but creates sufficiently more work for the resident, that it is not often used.

3) Liability. It seems like our society is becoming increasingly litigious. Fears of getting sued lead physicians to limit procedures that a resident does.

4) Declining reimbursement. As reimbursement goes down, physicians are under increasing pressure to produce. Residents do limit efficiency, but not he extent that med students do. This is due to experience and also related to points 1 and 2 above.

5) Physician scorecards. Whether hospital run or not (think healthgrades.com, etc) physicians want to make sure they remain highly rated due to fear of losing referrals. I am sure there is concern that med student participation will lead to worsening reviews, even if this fear is unfounded.

A few comments on the situation:
1) Med students should do H&Ps, report on rounds, propose plans, document, etc. I still do not think that a note going in the official record is the goal. The goal is the process and I and disheartened to hear that this is not happening at many places.

2) Med students should participate in procedures and surgery. The extent of that participation will depend on the med student, the patient, and the procedure, but helping close is a good start.

3) Attendings who are not willing to take on some liability risk, lower productivity, and risk some poor reviews should get out of academia.

4) Boards are not all that matters. Many places use step 1 scores to weed through applicants on a first pass, but after that letters of recommendation and interview play a much bigger role. Therefore, it is critical to form relationships with faculty in your chosen specialty. You need a good advisor to help with advice regarding away rotations, personal statement, and rank list. You also need good letters from people who know you.

5) While I am sure step 2 matters for some, it doesn't for me or my partners. We pay little, if any, attention to step 2 score.

6) Don't try to predict what any given specialty will be like in 15 years. You can't really tell. In my own field, technology is better but day-to-day practice is very similar to what it was when I was doing sub-I's in 2002.

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Thank you for taking some of us medical students seriously instead of many others who think we're a bunch of lazy, whiny students and should just suck it up because it has "always been like that" (no, it hasn't). I personally, again, love to work hard, be diligent, and punctual for the sake of professionalism and a proper clerkship education, but why even bother anymore when we have no legitimate roles under an increasingly stressed system? My notes are fake practice (partly due to EMR because now everything is tracked so it's more cumbersome to authenticate new users and allow residents to use/tweak our notes for actual use), my exams are redundant (but often more existent than residents' exams but overlooked), my presentations hardly ever exist, my exposure to procedures is completely resident/attending based and is often nil...you see our point? All those books that talk about how to "do well" on the wards...how can we when at many sites we do not even have a chance to experientially learn and prove ourselves? Hence, my point about how the formal post-rotation student evaluations these days are also often incredibly vague and hardly distinguish one student from another in many respects: "Diligent. Hard-worker. Keep reading.". And hence my point that in the end, BOARDS ARE ALL THAT MATTER in weeding applicants apart INITIALLY; thus, my point about us wanting to just go home and study in a proper manner (resources only at our disposal outside the hospital) than spend 12+ hours standing around. Step 1/2 matter so much more nowadays.

I think it's a little bit of everything compounding the problem. I'm not sure what percentage of M3's/DO/MD clinical sites are associated with it, but I definitely believe the increasingly litigiousness nature of American healthcare/malpractice and the increasing demands of patients (and "prospective patients") lead to even less incentive for medical students to hold a more substantial role on the wards. Why should I be taught how to properly suture--thinks the surgeon--if the surgeon is concerned the suture won't hold properly in the wrong hands, giving him possibly more work to correct later? Why should residents teach when they themselves are burdened by ever more disgruntled patients, increasing debt burden, and no incentive to teach unless they so individually desire? (Also: Patients who basically get free care: "Why should I have to wait and sit through this student's interview? Can I see the doctor instead? I've been waiting a whole 30 minutes...") I've had some amazing residents and preceptors who took it upon themselves to teach/pimp, but oftentimes these experiences are few and far between.

Additionally—and I'm not sure I've heard others elaborate on this—but I also believe the persistently exponentially changing roles of each specialty contribute to the difficulty in teaching and difficulty in providing an accurate picture of a specialty 5-10 years before said medical student actually becomes an attending in that already-changed field. For example—and this stretches on the time spans—but back in the day, family physicians especially in the countryside used to perform appendectomies, c-sections, vasectomies, and more minor office procedures; nowadays, though it still exists, it is hard to find and even more difficult to find that training actually used in daily practice. Heck, some family practice physicians even go so far as to not do any procedures, or see any children, or do any OB/GYN, and stick to adults...ie. "internal medicine". Or, e.g., OBGYNs used to do amniocenteses; now that they're less commonly done, the MFM-trained OBGYNs basically do them. Or, e.g., Interventional Radiology performs some procedures whereas back in the day other specialties would. Or, e.g., increasingly used interventional, non-surgical procedures provide for situations to replace historically surgical treatments. And so on...


Wow. Thanks for sharing that perspective. I think there are many of us that look to those days, and sadly--for better or worse--see the foundations of medical education seem to have substantially changed. I like the idea of the general practice physician. When I was a little girl, we had one. He did perhaps not "it all," but a lot. And it was funny, b/c he so loved doing it. I mean, it was like he was meant to be that general practice physician. He took care of peds. He delivered all my mother's children, and all of them ended up being, what is unquestionably called high risk--her tendency to hemorrhage and have transverse presentations and such. I can't help but think we may be cutting medicine's throat, as we make every, single things so super-specialized.

I do really wonder, based upon what some docs have said to me at work and what I have read on SDN, about limiting the residency hours. I mean, while longer hours suck, there is only so much time one has to learn.
 
Inpatient psych does require some medicine

This is totally true. Patients are on some very serious medications, and it's important to have a foundation in medicine. Just the other day, for example, a doc was trying to determine how much the patient's lengthening QTc was r/t family genetics or the pt's medications. The have to keep an eye on labs, and not just drug levels.
 
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I think it is multi-factorial. In no particular order:
1) EMR has made it less convenient for students to do notes. Not impossible, as some sites are set up for it, but definitely not as easy as pen and paper days. It is worthwhile pointing out, though, that medical student notes were never supposed to be used for anything, at least not in the last 15 years. Some residents and attendings would use them, but this was actually against Joint Commission and billing guidelines. Students can contribute PMFSHx, but that is about it, technically speaking.

2) CPOE. Electonic ordering has essentially removed the ability for students to write orders that are then consigned by a resident. It is still possible, but creates sufficiently more work for the resident, that it is not often used.

3) Liability. It seems like our society is becoming increasingly litigious. Fears of getting sued lead physicians to limit procedures that a resident does.

4) Declining reimbursement. As reimbursement goes down, physicians are under increasing pressure to produce. Residents do limit efficiency, but not he extent that med students do. This is due to experience and also related to points 1 and 2 above.

5) Physician scorecards. Whether hospital run or not (think healthgrades.com, etc) physicians want to make sure they remain highly rated due to fear of losing referrals. I am sure there is concern that med student participation will lead to worsening reviews, even if this fear is unfounded.

A few comments on the situation:
1) Med students should do H&Ps, report on rounds, propose plans, document, etc. I still do not think that a note going in the official record is the goal. The goal is the process and I and disheartened to hear that this is not happening at many places.

2) Med students should participate in procedures and surgery. The extent of that participation will depend on the med student, the patient, and the procedure, but helping close is a good start.

3) Attendings who are not willing to take on some liability risk, lower productivity, and risk some poor reviews should get out of academia.

4) Boards are not all that matters. Many places use step 1 scores to weed through applicants on a first pass, but after that letters of recommendation and interview play a much bigger role. Therefore, it is critical to form relationships with faculty in your chosen specialty. You need a good advisor to help with advice regarding away rotations, personal statement, and rank list. You also need good letters from people who know you.

5) While I am sure step 2 matters for some, it doesn't for me or my partners. We pay little, if any, attention to step 2 score.

6) Don't try to predict what any given specialty will be like in 15 years. You can't really tell. In my own field, technology is better but day-to-day practice is very similar to what it was when I was doing sub-I's in 2002.

Thank you for answering and sharing your insights.
 
IMHO it is a small subset of posters here, and posters on SDN are a biased (read: often unhappy, misanthropic people) crowd to begin with.

My day to day interactions with students bear little resemblance to the stuff I hear on this forum
Are you saying your students are not unhappy or misanthropic? The one requirement for being a medical student is the ability to act and put on a happy face, so its hard to tell.
 
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IMHO it is a small subset of posters here, and posters on SDN are a biased (read: often unhappy, misanthropic people) crowd to begin with.

My day to day interactions with students bear little resemblance to the stuff I hear on this forum

As I have moved up through the ranks of medicine, I have tried very hard to remain aware that all of the people who are suddenly being extremely agreeable to me do not, in fact, agree with me about anything. Its very easy to think of yourself as a gifted educator when, as a resident, the medical students say tons of motivated kiss-assy things all day. Its even easier as an attending, when you don't even have the negative feedback from your attendings and the nurses to balance out the praise. Thankfully as a clinician I at least have patients to periodically put me in my place. If I spent most of the day in the OR I might really start thinking that I was a people person.
 
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I am being completely sincere in asking the following questions. What percentage of M3s within the last 5 years feels/felt this way? Does it make a difference in terms of DO clinical sites vs. MD clinical sites? Has something seriously changed b/c of fear of litigation and administration regulation? Are residents under the gun, b/c they have less time in which to learn what they need in their own programs, much less time left over to teach M3s and M4s? I mean people seem to be expressing some earnest concerns, and now I am wondering if things have changed so much that students are getting shafted in terms of clinical experiences. I genuinely don't know now. What do the surveys, overall, look like? I now wonder if this has anything to do with reduced residency hours? Maybe there isn't enough time for residents to teach MSs?

Many/most feel this way, regardless of what they say or how they act around residents, attendings and other minions of the system. Aging population, computers and general baby-boomer selfishness probably account for most of the difference.
 
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As I have moved up through the ranks of medicine, I have tried very hard to remain aware that all of the people who are suddenly being extremely agreeable to me do not, in fact, agree with me about anything. Its very easy to think of yourself as a gifted educator when, as a resident, the medical students say tons of motivated kiss-assy things all day. Its even easier as an attending, when you don't even have the negative feedback from your attendings and the nurses to balance out the praise. Thankfully as a clinician I at least have patients to periodically put me in my place. If I spent most of the day in the OR I might really start thinking that I was a people person.

Doctors in general are more susceptible than the average to flattery and manipulation, hence why they're always the prime targets for high-end conmen and shady investment schemes.
 
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Many/most feel this way, regardless of what they say or how they act around residents, attendings and other minions of the system. Aging population, computers and general baby-boomer selfishness probably account for most of the difference.
Some of it is acting/faking, but I have found that some people have the extraordinary ability to actually convince themselves that they just love shadowing all day and watching a family doc go up on a metformin dose or something equally boring that they act jazzed about.
Doctors in general are more susceptible than the average to flattery and manipulation, hence why they're always the prime targets for high-end conmen and their shady investment schemes.
Yeah all doctors have fallen for that. Its called med school.
I am being completely sincere in asking the following questions. What percentage of M3s within the last 5 years feels/felt this way? Does it make a difference in terms of DO clinical sites vs. MD clinical sites? Has something seriously changed b/c of fear of litigation and administration regulation? Are residents under the gun, b/c they have less time in which to learn what they need in their own programs, much less time left over to teach M3s and M4s? I mean people seem to be expressing some earnest concerns, and now I am wondering if things have changed so much that students are getting shafted in terms of clinical experiences. I genuinely don't know now. What do the surveys, overall, look like? I now wonder if this has anything to do with reduced residency hours? Maybe there isn't enough time for residents to teach MSs?
100% of the people I am close enough to talk candidly with in medical school agree with what has been said in this thread. The rest of the people that I just amicably chat with if I see them in the hospital may say stuff like "[insert rotation] is great! I am learning a lot! So fun!". They are most likely lying. I know that because friend circles overlap. My friends that I can talk openly with may be close enough to talk openly with the person who lies to me. That is how I know that most people dislike third year.
 
Some of it is acting/faking, but I have found that some people have the extraordinary ability to actually convince themselves that they just love shadowing all day and watching a family doc go up on a metformin dose or something equally boring that they act jazzed about.

Perhaps, but why do so many of those same people then schedule the maximum number of bogus 4th year electives en route to their EM residencies? Or maybe that's just my experience.
 
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Some of it is acting/faking, but I have found that some people have the extraordinary ability to actually convince themselves that they just love shadowing all day and watching a family doc go up on a metformin dose or something equally boring that they act jazzed about.

Yeah all doctors have fallen for that. Its called med school.

100% of the people I am close enough to talk candidly with in medical school agree with what has been said in this thread. The rest of the people that I just amicably chat with if I see them in the hospital may say stuff like "[insert rotation] is great! I am learning a lot! So fun!". They are most likely lying. I know that because friend circles overlap. My friends that I can talk openly with may be close enough to talk openly with the person who lies to me. That is how I know that most people dislike third year.

i think it really depends on the med school. I went to Downstate a NYC state school in Brooklyn.
-we split the notes with the intern on medicine/surgery/psych +/- OB
-offered multiple opportunities for procedures without showing much initiative Central line/Thoracentesis/intubation./deliver babies/pelvic and pap smears/ first assist in surgical and gyn procedures blood draws/IV insertion a given since its NYC
-basically came up with our own plan to present to attendings that we run by the senior residents. the patient we follow are basically ours. the intern knows very little about these patients ( not good, but is good for the medical students)

but also a lot of social work stuff, but we are at the bottom as students, i suppose
-transported patients
-made clinic appointments
-suck up to nursing staff so that they would actually do their job....

I had a lot of fun 3r yr... and at least from what I am told, I was not the only one at the time
 
Thank you for taking some of us medical students seriously instead of many others who think we're a bunch of lazy, whiny students and should just suck it up because it has "always been like that" (no, it hasn't). I personally, again, love to work hard, be diligent, and punctual for the sake of professionalism and a proper clerkship education, but why even bother anymore when we have no legitimate roles under an increasingly stressed system? My notes are fake practice (partly due to EMR because now everything is tracked so it's more cumbersome to authenticate new users and allow residents to use/tweak our notes for actual use), my exams are redundant (but often more existent than residents' exams but overlooked), my presentations hardly ever exist, my exposure to procedures is completely resident/attending based and is often nil...you see our point? All those books that talk about how to "do well" on the wards...how can we when at many sites we do not even have a chance to experientially learn and prove ourselves? Hence, my point about how the formal post-rotation student evaluations these days are also often incredibly vague and hardly distinguish one student from another in many respects: "Diligent. Hard-worker. Keep reading.". And hence my point that in the end, BOARDS ARE ALL THAT MATTER in weeding applicants apart INITIALLY; thus, my point about us wanting to just go home and study in a proper manner (resources only at our disposal outside the hospital) than spend 12+ hours standing around. Step 1/2 matter so much more nowadays.

I think it's a little bit of everything compounding the problem. I'm not sure what percentage of M3's/DO/MD clinical sites are associated with it, but I definitely believe the increasingly litigiousness nature of American healthcare/malpractice and the increasing demands of patients (and "prospective patients") lead to even less incentive for medical students to hold a more substantial role on the wards. Why should I be taught how to properly suture--thinks the surgeon--if the surgeon is concerned the suture won't hold properly in the wrong hands, giving him possibly more work to correct later? Why should residents teach when they themselves are burdened by ever more disgruntled patients, increasing debt burden, and no incentive to teach unless they so individually desire? (Also: Patients who basically get free care: "Why should I have to wait and sit through this student's interview? Can I see the doctor instead? I've been waiting a whole 30 minutes...") I've had some amazing residents and preceptors who took it upon themselves to teach/pimp, but oftentimes these experiences are few and far between.

Additionally—and I'm not sure I've heard others elaborate on this—but I also believe the persistently exponentially changing roles of each specialty contribute to the difficulty in teaching and difficulty in providing an accurate picture of a specialty 5-10 years before said medical student actually becomes an attending in that already-changed field. For example—and this stretches on the time spans—but back in the day, family physicians especially in the countryside used to perform appendectomies, c-sections, vasectomies, and more minor office procedures; nowadays, though it still exists, it is hard to find and even more difficult to find that training actually used in daily practice. Heck, some family practice physicians even go so far as to not do any procedures, or see any children, or do any OB/GYN, and stick to adults...ie. "internal medicine". Or, e.g., OBGYNs used to do amniocenteses; now that they're less commonly done, the MFM-trained OBGYNs basically do them. Or, e.g., Interventional Radiology performs some procedures whereas back in the day other specialties would. Or, e.g., increasingly used interventional, non-surgical procedures provide for situations to replace historically surgical treatments. And so on...

Is it incorrect to believe that, indeed, unnecessary litigation against physicians have caused this over specialization where at that point you're essentially a technician and will have little to offer outside of your scope, but will be almost 100% accurate in your work? Or is this just a natural progression for medicine? Is it impossible to be a broad-scope knowledgeable physician?

I yearn to be a generalist, whether that is in surgery, or family medicine, but I wonder how my patient population will react. Obviously, nobody wants to hurt their patients, but medicine has never been a nill-risk endeavor. In striving to be, are we losing something? Am I restricted to rural medicine? And, even then, will FM residency not teach me basic surgical and non-surg procedures?

#showerthoughts
 
IMHO it is a small subset of posters here, and posters on SDN are a biased (read: often unhappy, misanthropic people) crowd to begin with.

My day to day interactions with students bear little resemblance to the stuff I hear on this forum

The difference between them and us is that they need your blessing to get an honors or a good word to the program director whereas here you don't know us and we don't need your approval. Do you really think a surgical student is going to be honest with an upper level resident? They're all playing the game.

It's like when attendings are like oh yeah our nps and crnas love working with us blah blah. Then who is writing all those negative comments about doctors online? Let's be real here.
 
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@zidanetribal I think you hit some important points, especially the conflict between clinical education and the studying for standardized exams. Medicine is so broad that short 4-8 week experiences can't provide hands-on experience with all the types of patients you will ultimately be responsible for treating. On the other hand, those experiences are extremely valuable for understanding the daily realities of teamwork that aren't easy to teach through lectures or books. I think some of the concerns are a bit overblown, though. For example, whether your notes are used or not, the experience of writing is inherently valuable - you learn how to efficiently gather information and formulate a coherent story. When you have 10 notes to write your first day as an intern, having that experience is invaluable, and saves a lot of grief. Legally, students are only allowed to provide the Past Medical/Surgical, Family, and Social Histories. Obviously this isn't always the reality, but it's hard to hold the residents/attending responsible (although they should be providing feedback). In the same vein, I don't agree that you can't "study in the proper manner" while still at the hospital. I did flashcards or UWorld on my phone everyday during down time in the hospital, and killed my shelves and boards. Being present helps build trust with the residents/attendings, allowing them to give you more responsibility. It seems students want to be around the hospital less, with more responsibility, but then complain about receiving "average" evaluations. I got to do central lines and paracenteses not only because I asked, but because the residents could see I knew the patients and the procedures, and they trusted me. I think being increasingly litigious has impacted these opportunities, but the short term fix is building enough trust to be given these opportunities.

Ultimately, I think the anger should be directed toward attendings/residents/schools that don't emphasize teaching, rather than the idea that spending time in the hospital isn't valuable.
 
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While you should not enter onc or rad onc if you are not comfortable with these treatments, it is important to note that treatment and prognosis are heavily dependent on a number of factors including the type of tumor, the grade, the stage, risk stratification, age, comorbidities, etc.

You're experience, while tragic, is not necessarily generalizable.

I agree that the causes and solutions of complex problems are due to multiple factors. That's a given. My hatred of chemo and rads deals with the levels of unbelievable pain and suffering patients endure.

I can cite oncologists who feel that the benefits of chemotherapy are extremely limited and quite damaging. Chemo is an A-bomb on Hiroshima event. It's an annihilation of your immune system which is the system which should be protected.

When a so called therapy destroys your defenses in order to destroy that which is killing you, I call that a scorched earth policy. It's desperation plain and simple yet it isn't sold as such.

It's given as a viable innocuous treatment. Sorry but I will never be sold that bill of goods. My immune system and it's functionality is paramount. If you destroy my defenses, you're destroying me. And that's what I saw in my small and non-generalizable sample size.

The transformation and systematic degradation of a human being into a pale emaciated walking corpse is what I witnessed day in and day out. Some in the fetal position with pleural catheters. Others face up staring at the ceiling with mechanical ventilators. All with picc lines.

SouthernSurgeon calls this uninformed BS. It isn't. The damage that chemo and rads do are known. It's limited effects are also. It's scorched earth policy is obvious to any med student. Our problem is not coming to terms with this reality and ditching torture for something better.
 
You act like chemotherapy doesn't cure some people or put them in remission for months or years. Some is Hail Mary, maybe it will buy you a few months, but at a significant cost. When you can put off picking out a pine box for even a few months, it may be worth it depending on your particular situation and the timing of life events.
We had a secretary that chose traditional Chinese medicine for her breast cancer. We have a new secretary now.
Hell, Steve Jobs admitted that his "I know better," no western medicine was a poor choice in retrospect.
Things are no where near as black and white as you seem to suggest in your posts. We do palliative surgery on kids all the time. They're terminal, zero 12 month survival, but it can buy time. For many, that's enough.


--
Il Destriero
 
SouthernSurgeon calls this uninformed BS. It isn't. The damage that chemo and rads do are known. It's limited effects are also. It's scorched earth policy is obvious to any med student. Our problem is not coming to terms with this reality and ditching torture for something better.

As misinformed as I'm sure this seems to my adult colleagues, its a whole different level of stupid when you only see pediatric cancers. At this point most of the cancers I see have a 95% + 5 year survival rate. These were diseases that had 95% + 5 year mortality rates only 2 generations ago.
 
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I agree that the causes and solutions of complex problems are due to multiple factors. That's a given. My hatred of chemo and rads deals with the levels of unbelievable pain and suffering patients endure.

I can cite oncologists who feel that the benefits of chemotherapy are extremely limited and quite damaging. Chemo is an A-bomb on Hiroshima event. It's an annihilation of your immune system which is the system which should be protected.

When a so called therapy destroys your defenses in order to destroy that which is killing you, I call that a scorched earth policy. It's desperation plain and simple yet it isn't sold as such.

It's given as a viable innocuous treatment. Sorry but I will never be sold that bill of goods. My immune system and it's functionality is paramount. If you destroy my defenses, you're destroying me. And that's what I saw in my small and non-generalizable sample size.

The transformation and systematic degradation of a human being into a pale emaciated walking corpse is what I witnessed day in and day out. Some in the fetal position with pleural catheters. Others face up staring at the ceiling with mechanical ventilators. All with picc lines.

SouthernSurgeon calls this uninformed BS. It isn't. The damage that chemo and rads do are known. It's limited effects are also. It's scorched earth policy is obvious to any med student. Our problem is not coming to terms with this reality and ditching torture for something better.

The bold statements are not generalizably true. Different therapies have different side effects, some more severe, some less.

Also, chemo and rads can cure some cancers, result in long term remission in others. For yet others, it is a Hail Mary.

Finally, I don't know any oncologists who present these therapies as benign. If the ones your family saw did so, then they were wrong. The oncologists I have worked with present all the facts of chemo - the good and the bad.
 
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It's given as a viable innocuous treatment.

And that's what I saw in my small and non-generalizable sample size.

It's scorched earth policy is obvious to any med student.

Look back and read your posts. Do you see the issues here?

1) You admit yourself that your experiences are non-generalizable, and yet you proceed to generalize with your rhetoric.

2) Any oncologist who presents chemotherapy as "innocuous" is negligent. Every oncologist I've worked with has had long, careful discussions with patients and their families regarding the very real side effects, and the risk to benefit ratio of every option - be it chemo, radiation, immunotherapy, or expectant monitoring.

3) "It's scorched earth policy is obvious to any med student." --> Your statement is false. You're on a forum of medical students, residents, and doctors. You're also in a tiny minority. Very few here would agree with your characterization of chemotherapy, which should tell you something, if you were inclined to listen.

I'm sorry you witnessed suffering, but it has made you unreasonably dogmatic in your views. This is what @SouthernSurgeon is referring to. I hope you gain a broader perspective over your four years of medical school.
 
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