Average Student / What track

[postbacpremed87]

Which of these is the average to above average DO student most likely to obtain? I know you should do what interests you, but for discussion sake:

OB-GYN; Fellowship in MFM or GYN ONC

IM; Fellowship in Cards

General Surgery

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[NontradCA]

The average DO student is likely to take the following route
NMM Residency; Fellowship in herb medicine, employment at Massage Envy with extra reimbursement for happy endings.

 

[postbacpremed87]

The average DO student is likely to take the following route
NMM Residency; Fellowship in herb medicine, employment at Massage Envy with extra reimbursement for happy endings.

Haha okay. You win and you had some fun. Now that it is over....I meant medical student...obviously

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I'd say general surgery. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part

 

[HeronsBeak]

I'd say general surgery. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part

That's what I'd like to think too, but I somehow doubt it

 

[Postictal Raiden]

That's what I'd like to think too, but I somehow doubt it

Obviously landing a general surgery residency is more difficult than landing Internal medicine or Ob/gyn, but MFM and Cards are among the most competitive fellowships.

 

[Trogghunter]

Any of the above maybe even ortho as long as you 'audition'

 

[Pisiform]

IM or FM

 

[HeronsBeak]

Any of the above maybe even ortho as long as you 'audition'

For an average student? I was under the impression ortho and even gen surg were pretty competitive... I realize those fellowhips are hard too, I kind of wonder if an average student could do any of the OP's suggestions.

 

[Trogghunter]

Most of the time an average student will be deterred from ortho/gen surg, but if you gun to your little hearts content on your 'audition' then you can do whatever. 2ppl from my school matched ortho with avg grades and like 450s in step 1.

 

[Petypet]

Since 2 of those you probably need to do ACGME residency at a decent residency in order to match fellowship, probably gen surg. You can do either AOA or ACGME gen surg, and some of the smaller DO programs are not hard to get in to. Gyn onc and cardiology you will be competing with some very good students from MD schools and thus it would be harder for the average DO.

 

[abolt18]

Since 2 of those you probably need to do ACGME residency at a decent residency in order to match fellowship, probably gen surg. You can do either AOA or ACGME gen surg, and some of the smaller DO programs are not hard to get in to. Gyn onc and cardiology you will be competing with some very good students from MD schools and thus it would be harder for the average DO.

Pretty soon ALL residencies will be ACGME (by 2020)... and considering the "increase in quality" that will occur in all the currently AOA residencies, I'd imagine the fellowships will become much more viable options through the common ACGME or the osteopathic ACGME residencies (I think that's how they refer to the future differentiation)

 

[Petypet]

Pretty soon ALL residencies will be ACGME (by 2020)... and considering the "increase in quality" that will occur in all the currently AOA residencies, I'd imagine the fellowships will become much more viable options through the common ACGME or the osteopathic ACGME residencies (I think that's how they refer to the future differentiation)

I agree in a perfect world this should happen, and hopefully 2020 there will be more equality. However, I imagine by 2020 not every fellowship will be as accepting of students who did their residency at some BFE location. The logistics just don't add up. Put your self in the shoes of a fellowship director, they are already likely getting more than enough qualified applicants from well known institutions, why do they need to be more permissive? My guess is the competitive fellowships won't be as open door initially.

 

[dyspareunia]

Pretty soon ALL residencies will be ACGME (by 2020)... and considering the "increase in quality" that will occur in all the currently AOA residencies, I'd imagine the fellowships will become much more viable options through the common ACGME or the osteopathic ACGME residencies (I think that's how they refer to the future differentiation)

This is wishful thinking on many levels.

Here's why.

1. ACGME or not, DOs will likely still be fighting an uphill battle.
2. ACGME is not ACGME when it comes to competitive fellowships. Where you did residency (Mayo vs. Random community program) matters.
3. I've been told that competitive fellowships (cards, GI) look at step 1 scores. DOs as a whole score lower on step 1.
4. Increased quality of training doesn't always mean increased quality of end product.

 

[DrEnderW]

This is wishful thinking on many levels.

Here's why.

1. ACGME or not, DOs will likely still be fighting an uphill battle.
2. ACGME is not ACGME when it comes to competitive fellowships. Where you did residency (Mayo vs. Random community program) matters.
3. I've been told that competitive fellowships (cards, GI) look at step 1 scores. DOs as a whole score lower on step 1.
4. Increased quality of training doesn't always mean increased quality of end product.

I think that's generally fair. There's a lot of wishful thinking and too short of a timeline.

It will still be hard to get a cards or GI fellowship, for example, at a very competitive program. However, many fellowship aren't that competitive and have unfilled positions. It will be nice for DOs coming from formerly AOA positions to apply to an increased number of fellowships. For example, AOA trained general surgery residents would have a heck of a lot more options and locations to apply to. It at least removes barriers to make things possible - that's a huge positive for DOs.

 

[Temperature101]

Obviously landing a general surgery residency is more difficult than landing Internal medicine or Ob/gyn, but MFM and Cards are among the most competitive fellowships.

What is MFM?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

What is MFM?

Maternal Fetal Medicine.

 

[Petypet]

I think that's generally fair. There's a lot of wishful thinking and too short of a timeline.

It will still be hard to get a cards or GI fellowship, for example, at a very competitive program. However, many fellowship aren't that competitive and have unfilled positions. It will be nice for DOs coming from formerly AOA positions to apply to an increased number of fellowships. For example, AOA trained general surgery residents would have a heck of a lot more options and locations to apply to. It at least removes barriers to make things possible - that's a huge positive for DOs.

Many programs already make exceptions for DO's in unfilled fellowships. Many DO general surgeons for example leave their AOA residency and do trauma or vascular fellowships at MD institutions.

 

[DrEnderW]

Many programs already make exceptions for DO's in unfilled fellowships. Many DO general surgeons for example leave their AOA residency and do trauma or vascular fellowships at MD institutions.

I completely agree. It will only increase the ability to land fellowships that DOs already have, which is a great thing.

 

[dyspareunia]

I think that's generally fair. There's a lot of wishful thinking and too short of a timeline.

It will still be hard to get a cards or GI fellowship, for example, at a very competitive program. However, many fellowship aren't that competitive and have unfilled positions. It will be nice for DOs coming from formerly AOA positions to apply to an increased number of fellowships. For example, AOA trained general surgery residents would have a heck of a lot more options and locations to apply to. It at least removes barriers to make things possible - that's a huge positive for DOs.

My point was that any GI/Cards fellowship is difficult to get.. Not just the most competitive ones.

An analogy would be matching into plastics at even the most undesirable lowest ranked program. Still extremely difficult.

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

Many programs already make exceptions for DO's in unfilled fellowships. Many DO general surgeons for example leave their AOA residency and do trauma or vascular fellowships at MD institutions.

Trauma and vascular are not competitive fellowships.

 

[Petypet]

Trauma and vascular are not competitive fellowships.

That was the point. They can already get into ACGME fellowships from AOA residencies if they so desire. The point being is the competitive ones or bigger name ones won't take DO's just because of this rule change.

 

[HooliganSnail]

Which of these is the average to above average DO student most likely to obtain? I know you should do what interests you, but for discussion sake:

OB-GYN; Fellowship in MFM or GYN ONC

IM; Fellowship in Cards

General Surgery

Don't listen to all the MDs commenting on this thread, as they really do not get how obtaining a DO residency works.

First of all, your COMLEX score is important, but not nearly as important as on the MD side. If you want a competitive residency, you need to rotate at the program you want, this is the most important thing. While there, you want to let everyone know how much you want to be a part of the program. Show them you are hard-working, easy going, and intelligent. Most programs want candidates who will mesh will with the program as a whole, and that is what you want to show them when you are rotating there. All of the students in my class who did this got their residencies. Those that did not and just "studied for the test" ended up in other specialties.

Regarding the fellowships, the best chance at a fellowship is at a facility where you did your residency, regardless of MD or DO. If you want fellowship in MFM, you should look for Ob-Gyn training at a program that has an MFM fellowship.

Most important, decide what is important for you. Community based residency is awesome for several specialties. At a community hospital you give up the rare cases for more hands on practical training, and many people (myself included) feel that is the better way to train.

 

[docnotsopc]

Haha okay. You win and you had some fun. Now that it is over....I meant medical student...obviously

Rule #1 of SDN, if a pre-med answers your question ignore the answer. Several pre-meds gave their 2 cents, and while their intentions were good, this is how false information gets spread around SDN and thus the internet.

I will say first off that I know little about OB/GYN. I have zero intention of doing anything OB/GYN after my core rotation. However, I can speak about IM and Gen surg (to some degree).

It really comes down to ACGME Vs AOA (or soon to be "ACGME"). Lets start off with the AOA sites (same sites that will get ACGME status within a few years). For IM, Cards is doable if you were to do a IM residency at program with fellowships. A lot of it can be word of mouth and how well you get along with people. Gen Surg AOA is also quite attainable if your COMLEX is decent (you said average student and nothing about board scores).

ACGME: Gen surg impossible. Don't waste your money on apps. IM is much more attainable, but as an average DO student expect low-tier IM residency spots. Maybe "mid" tier. (mind you this whole tier thing is relative to you speak to, so i wont even bother listing examples of each tier). However, in order to get cards afterwards you need to be in a decent university program with fellowships. You could also be in a community IM program that has a high fellowship match rate. (there is one in Portland for example).

Hope that helps, good luck!

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Rule #1 of SDN, if a pre-med answers your question ignore the answer. Several pre-meds gave their 2 cents, and while their intentions were good, this is how false information gets spread around SDN and thus the internet.

I will say first off that I know little about OB/GYN. I have zero intention of doing anything OB/GYN after my core rotation. However, I can speak about IM and Gen surg (to some degree).

It really comes down to ACGME Vs AOA (or soon to be "ACGME"). Lets start off with the AOA sites (same sites that will get ACGME status within a few years). For IM, Cards is doable if you were to do a IM residency at program with fellowships. A lot of it can be word of mouth and how well you get along with people. Gen Surg AOA is also quite attainable if your COMLEX is decent (you said average student and nothing about board scores).

ACGME: Gen surg impossible. Don't waste your money on apps. IM is much more attainable, but as an average DO student expect low-tier IM residency spots. Maybe "mid" tier. (mind you this whole tier thing is relative to you speak to, so i wont even bother listing examples of each tier). However, in order to get cards afterwards you need to be in a decent university program with fellowships. You could also be in a community IM program that has a high fellowship match rate. (there is one in Portland for example).

Hope that helps, good luck!

What do you mean by "Gen surg impossible"? Last year, nearly 50 DO's matched categorical pgy-1 GS residencies. Despite being less DO-friend, I would consider ACGME GS residencies to be somewhat attainable.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

 

[NontradCA]

Rule #1 of SDN, if a pre-med answers your question ignore the answer. Several pre-meds gave their 2 cents, and while their intentions were good, this is how false information gets spread around SDN and thus the internet.

I will say first off that I know little about OB/GYN. I have zero intention of doing anything OB/GYN after my core rotation. However, I can speak about IM and Gen surg (to some degree).

It really comes down to ACGME Vs AOA (or soon to be "ACGME"). Lets start off with the AOA sites (same sites that will get ACGME status within a few years). For IM, Cards is doable if you were to do a IM residency at program with fellowships. A lot of it can be word of mouth and how well you get along with people. Gen Surg AOA is also quite attainable if your COMLEX is decent (you said average student and nothing about board scores).

ACGME: Gen surg impossible. Don't waste your money on apps. IM is much more attainable, but as an average DO student expect low-tier IM residency spots. Maybe "mid" tier. (mind you this whole tier thing is relative to you speak to, so i wont even bother listing examples of each tier). However, in order to get cards afterwards you need to be in a decent university program with fellowships. You could also be in a community IM program that has a high fellowship match rate. (there is one in Portland for example).

Hope that helps, good luck!

This, followed by your ridiculous conjecture is everything wrong with SDN in a nutshell.

 

[DrEnderW]

What do you mean by "Gen surg impossible"? Last year, nearly 50 DO's matched categorical pgy-1 GS residencies. Despite being less DO-friendly, I would consider ACGME GS residencies to be somewhat attainable.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

This.

A solid USMLE score and equivalent research makes this a realistic possibility if you plan accordingly.

ACGME GS is not that same for DOs as ortho, NS, uro, ENT, etc is.

 

[dyspareunia]

This.

A solid USMLE score and equivalent research makes this a realistic possibility if you plan accordingly.

ACGME GS is not that same for DOs as ortho, NS, uro, ENT, etc is.

I think this thread is about average students. Average students don't have a "solid" USMLE or equivalent research.

A "solid" USMLE score for gen surg for MD applicants is many points higher than the national USMLE average and I think we can all agree that a DO will likely need an even higher score to compete with MD grads.

 

[NontradCA]

I think this thread is about average students. Average students don't have a "solid" USMLE or equivalent research.

A "solid" USMLE score for gen surg for MD applicants is many points higher than the national USMLE average and I think we can all agree that a DO will likely need an even higher score to compete with MD grads.

Gen Surg AOA is also quite attainable if your COMLEX is decent (you said average student and nothing about board scores).

ACGME: Gen surg impossible. Don't waste your money on apps

 

[DrEnderW]

I think this thread is about average students. Average students don't have a "solid" USMLE or equivalent research.

A "solid" USMLE score for gen surg for MD applicants is many points higher than the national USMLE average and I think we can all agree that a DO will likely need an even higher score to compete with MD grads.

I know the thread is about average students, but I was responding to a specific comment saying ACGME GS is an impossibility for DOs, which is misinformation.

The mean Step 1 score for GS was 227 for matched independent applicants and US seniors, both with about 2 research experiences which is hardly impressive.

I was just noting that matching GS is not in any way an impossibility. You will never hear me argue it's conformable to be an average DO student, especially in regards to any surgery or fellowship position.

 

[dyspareunia]

I know the thread is about average students, but I was responding to a specific comment saying ACGME GS is an impossibility for DOs, which is misinformation.

The mean Step 1 score for GS was 227 for matched independent applicants and US seniors, both with about 2 research experiences which is hardly impressive.

I was just noting that matching GS is not in any way an impossibility. You will never hear me argue it's conformable to be an average DO student, especially in regards to any surgery or fellowship position.

I didn't read that long rant you replied to, but I assume that person meant "matching ACGME gen surg for an average DO student is an impossibility". Nothing is impossible, but an average DO student likely does not have a 227 or 2 pubs.

.

If you think "average student" doesn't imply "average board score" in the context of the match then.. well, I don't even know what to say to you.

 

[NontradCA]

I didn't read that long rant you replied to, but I assume that person meant "matching ACGME gen surg for an average DO student is an impossibility". Nothing is impossible, but an average DO student likely does not have a 227 or 2 pubs.



If you think "average student" doesn't imply "average board score" in the context of the match then.. well, I don't even know what to say to you.

No he didn't and I even quoted and bolded his thinking for you, as much as you want to argue whatever point you're trying to make.

 

[DrEnderW]

an average DO student likely does not have a 227 or 2 pubs.

No argument there.

 

[dyspareunia]

No he didn't and I even quoted and bolded his thinking for you, as much as you want to argue whatever point you're trying to make.

Oh I see now. I agree that a DO with good board scores can match ACGME gen surg.