Away rotation -expectations and resources?

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promotemma

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I'm beginning a 4th year visiting student rotation on Monday and was curious what the level of expectation would be of me? I'm a DO student and have had few opportunities to compare myself amongst other medical students. I can gather a fair history, although I have trouble organizing the thoughts in my mind before verbalizing them and find myself editorializing as I go. I don't know how(when) to use any of the assessments apart from the MMSE (i.e., Becks depressions scale etc) I'm familiar with many of the drugs commonly used, however, I've not studied treatment guidelines really. So basically, I can gather information, give an idea of what the dx is and have an idea in my mind of maybe which drug to use. What's the next step? What should I be doing to improve what I have while adding the next logical step in the process as a student?

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Oh it's a C/L rotation, but my question is also a little more global.
 
great questions, here are my dos and don'ts (the don'ts are based on things visiting students have done :wideyed:) ON C/L the only things you need to know how to do are a capacity assessment delirium assessment, suicide risk assessment, manage agitation, and recognize demoralization.
We dont use the MMSE much these days except in more advanced dementia. The MOCA is the standard cognitive screen. The most useful thing you can get your patients to do is draw a clock. you can also of course ask questions for orientation, attention, registration (repeat 3 objects), short term memory (recall of 3 objects a 5 mins), long term memory (Presidents backwards, who was President assassinated in 1960s?), current events, phonemic verbal fluency (Words beginning with f in 1 min), semantic verbal fluency (animals in 1 min), fund of knowledge (how many camels are there in holland? - answer of 0 or >50 indicates cognitive impairment)


Do
...get there early and stay late
...introduce yourself to everyone (including exactly where you go to medical school)
...look enthusiastic and engaged
...request an appointment to meet with the program director (typically the med student coordinator can arrange)
...bring in a paper once a week relevant to a case you are seeing to present to the team
...offer to call for collateral, make contact with outpatient providers, request records (if applicable)
...ask to meet with someone to discuss expectations (this may be head of service but more likely psychosomatic fellow, chief resident, or senior resident)
...ask for feedback when there is down time or when people aren't busy
...bring in baked treats for the team (ideally made yourself but store bought is okay, i guess...)
...offer to do a brief presentation on a topic for later on in the rotation
...read up on your patients
...ask occasional questions when people aren't busy
...respond to feedback and learn from your mistakes
...read voraciously during the month (the standard CL textbook is MGH handbook of psychosomatic medicine, but Levenson's textbook of psychosomatic medicine is the other choice)
...be ever so polite and kind to everyone
...be friendly with any MS3s or other visiting medical students. It's not a competition. And if it is, chances are the MS3s will look better than you
...request permission if you are doing other activities (such as attending clinic or didactics)
...remember it is better to ask permission than forgiveness as a med student
...be honest about what you can and cannot do. No one expects you to know it all
...remember you are there to learn
...call in if you are sick or running late
...be a team player: ask to do things and offer to do things no matter how scutty
...ask all new patients about suicidal and violent ideation, psychotic symptoms, depressive symptoms, memory/attention/concentration
...write out your notes to help you organize your thoughts
...allow yourself to be part of the team


Don't
...turn up late and leave early
...look disengaged, tired, distracted
...demand to meet with the program director or turn up at their office unannounced
...make the residents look bad! (don't answers questions that were asked of the resident, or interrupt letting the attending know that you've read up on the resident's patients and can't wait to show off)
...continuously ask for feedback when people are busy
...challenge or argue with any negative feedback you receive
...inappropriately touch the residents or other staff members
...allow the patient to split so you are the good object and everyone else is bad
...argue with anyone or express your disagreement with what the resident or attending is doing
...invade people's personal space
...shout at patients
...make sexually inappropriate jokes
...talk about how wasted you got, or that time you did 2 grams of coke
...spend five millions years presenting
...misrepresent yourself or be deliberately vague (for example so that people think you go to a different med school than you do)
...get in people's way
...appear and disappear with no respect for time
...talk or ask questions when people are clearly trying to work
...interject when someone else is interviewing a patient. In fact, don't interview patients that aren't yours
...speak in a family meeting or a multidisciplinary case conference. Chances are you will say the wrong thing
...expect to know everything. It's not what you know, it's who you don't annoy
...think your knowledge of psychopharmacology matters. chances are the service will have their own protocol for how they manage delirium, agitation etc and you will learn this as you go along
...be too eager to start writing notes or take ownership of patients. Spend the first few days trying to observe as much as you can. Look over someone's shoulder and see what their notes look like.
...just turn up to places (for example resident didactics) without being invited, if in doubt, ask
...try too hard to impress, you will probably irritate everyone
...come across as competitive
...cause the whole service to collapse
 
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Thank you splik!!!!! I'm without general mentorship (DO) so I'm at a loss for figuring out where I am, relatively speaking, and where I need to go. Thank you.
 
Don't
...allow the patient to split so you are the good object and everyone else is bad

How exactly do you suggest going about this? In my (albeit limited) experience a splitter's gonna split.
 
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great questions, here are my dos and don'ts (the don'ts are based on things visiting students have done :wideyed:) ON C/L the only things you need to know how to do are a capacity assessment delirium assessment, suicide risk assessment, manage agitation, and recognize demoralization.
We dont use the MMSE much these days except in more advanced dementia. The MOCA is the standard cognitive screen. The most useful thing you can get your patients to do is draw a clock. you can also of course ask questions for orientation, attention, registration (repeat 3 objects), short term memory (recall of 3 objects a 5 mins), long term memory (Presidents backwards, who was President assassinated in 1960s?), current events, phonemic verbal fluency (Words beginning with f in 1 min), semantic verbal fluency (animals in 1 min), fund of knowledge (how many camels are there in holland? - answer of 0 or >50 indicates cognitive impairment)


Do
...get there early and stay late
...introduce yourself to everyone (including exactly where you go to medical school)
...look enthusiastic and engaged
...request an appointment to meet with the program director (typically the med student coordinator can arrange)
...bring in a paper once a week relevant to a case you are seeing to present to the team
...offer to call for collateral, make contact with outpatient providers, request records (if applicable)
...ask to meet with someone to discuss expectations (this may be head of service but more likely psychosomatic fellow, chief resident, or senior resident)
...ask for feedback when there is down time or when people aren't busy
...bring in baked treats for the team (ideally made yourself but store bought is okay, i guess...)
...offer to do a brief presentation on a topic for later on in the rotation
...read up on your patients
...ask occasional questions when people aren't busy
...respond to feedback and learn from your mistakes
...read voraciously during the month (the standard CL textbook is MGH handbook of psychosomatic medicine, but Levenson's textbook of psychosomatic medicine is the other choice)
...be ever so polite and kind to everyone
...be friendly with any MS3s or other visiting medical students. It's not a competition. And if it is, chances are the MS3s will look better than you
...request permission if you are doing other activities (such as attending clinic or didactics)
...remember it is better to ask permission than forgiveness as a med student
...be honest about what you can and cannot do. No one expects you to know it all
...remember you are there to learn
...call in if you are sick or running late
...be a team player: ask to do things and offer to do things no matter how scutty
...ask all new patients about suicidal and violent ideation, psychotic symptoms, depressive symptoms, memory/attention/concentration
...write out your notes to help you organize your thoughts
...allow yourself to be part of the team


Don't
...turn up late and leave early
...look disengaged, tired, distracted
...demand to meet with the program director or turn up at their office unannounced
...make the residents look bad! (don't answers questions that were asked of the resident, or interrupt letting the attending know that you've read up on the resident's patients and can't wait to show off)
...continuously ask for feedback when people are busy
...challenge or argue with any negative feedback you receive
...inappropriately touch the residents or other staff members
...allow the patient to split so you are the good object and everyone else is bad
...argue with anyone or express your disagreement with what the resident or attending is doing
...invade people's personal space
...shout at patients
...make sexually inappropriate jokes
...talk about how wasted you got, or that time you did 2 grams of coke
...spend five millions years presenting
...misrepresent yourself or be deliberately vague (for example so that people think you go to a different med school than you do)
...get in people's way
...appear and disappear with no respect for time
...talk or ask questions when people are clearly trying to work
...interject when someone else is interviewing a patient. In fact, don't interview patients that aren't yours
...speak in a family meeting or a multidisciplinary case conference. Chances are you will say the wrong thing
...expect to know everything. It's not what you know, it's who you don't annoy
...think your knowledge of psychopharmacology matters. chances are the service will have their own protocol for how they manage delirium, agitation etc and you will learn this as you go along
...be too eager to start writing notes or take ownership of patients. Spend the first few days trying to observe as much as you can. Look over someone's shoulder and see what their notes look like.
...just turn up to places (for example resident didactics) without being invited, if in doubt, ask
...try too hard to impress, you will probably irritate everyone
...come across as competitive
...cause the whole service to collapse

I agree 100% with this. When I was a resident, the whole trying to show me up and constantly asking for feedback right when I was slammed were my biggest annoyances. This highlights, though, why aways can be risky. It's like a month long interview.
 
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How exactly do you suggest going about this? In my (albeit limited) experience a splitter's gonna split.

Good question. I think to some extent, the medical student is always going to find themselves on the good side of the split -- you spend more time with the patients, and you're not the one telling them things they don't want to hear. Big things are to never put it forth like you are questioning or disagree with the team even when there's a pull to do so. Also, question whether spending a ton of time with a patient is clinically appropriate. Your resident should help you with this.
 
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How exactly do you suggest going about this? In my (albeit limited) experience a splitter's gonna split.
someone needs to allow the splitting to happen. medical students are especially vulnerable because of their fragile sense of self they tend to get sucked into the idealization and the feeling valued by patients. if you make it clear that you are allied with the rest of the team and don't get sucked into working against your team then you can't split. Remember that you cannot have a therapeutic alliance with decompensated borderline patients. Continue to reinforce that you are part of the team. If you find that the patient is seeing the rest of the team as all bad, then don't go and see the patient alone. Present a united front. Set limits. If you are having strong feelings about a patient (such as wanting to take care of them to a level more than usual) then you should discuss this with someone and it will help identify the potential for splitting.

When I was a med student I ended up spending 3 hours with this one borderline patient (not having a clue about this sort of thing) and she just had such a compelling horrible story and told me how suicidal she was and how I was the only one who ever listened to her and the first person she had told x and y to. I was completely blindsided and it was nice to feel useful that I took everything she said for granted and believed that the psych consult team had just dismissed her. It was completely untrue but in the countertransference she made me want to help her and care for her that I allied with her against the evil psychiatry team (I was on neuro) when of course the psychiatry team was not evil at all, knew exactly what they were doing her by seeing her at less frequent fixed intervals, but I was completed sucked in. I see this happen all the time.
 
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someone needs to allow the splitting to happen. medical students are especially vulnerable because of their fragile sense of self they tend to get sucked into the idealization and the feeling valued by patients. if you make it clear that you are allied with the rest of the team and don't get sucked into working against your team then you can't split. Remember that you cannot have a therapeutic alliance with decompensated borderline patients. Continue to reinforce that you are part of the team. If you find that the patient is seeing the rest of the team as all bad, then don't go and see the patient alone. Present a united front. Set limits. If you are having strong feelings about a patient (such as wanting to take care of them to a level more than usual) then you should discuss this with someone and it will help identify the potential for splitting.

When I was a med student I ended up spending 3 hours with this one borderline patient (not having a clue about this sort of thing) and she just had such a compelling horrible story and told me how suicidal she was and how I was the only one who ever listened to her and the first person she had told x and y to. I was completely blindsided and it was nice to feel useful that I took everything she said for granted and believed that the psych consult team had just dismissed her. It was completely untrue but in the countertransference she made me want to help her and care for her that I allied with her against the evil psychiatry team (I was on neuro) when of course the psychiatry team was not evil at all, knew exactly what they were doing her by seeing her at less frequent fixed intervals, but I was completed sucked in. I see this happen all the time.

Thank you for your post. Oh ok - I'm following. You just mean not feeding into it or letting it continue. I've had patients like this and the Attendings were careful to warn us about behaviors that might feed into things like this. I guess in my mind if someone makes an attempt to split that's basically the same thing, but I can see how med students might get sucked into it easier and nourish the problem. I personally witnessed a third year interviewing a clearly borderline patient for like 2 hours while the residents tried to end the interview tactfully but the student just wasn't getting it just a couple months ago. I was just curious because I've had patients try to do things like this during rounds - like the attending will try to insert a question as the student interviews and the patient will say something like "you're not my doctor/I don't want to talk to you/I'm only speaking with ____" which I always tried to redirect with "this is the doctor in charge of the team, and we're all working together etc etc" - to me I'd still say that the patient was splitting, even if the team was doing their best to present a united front.
 
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