Away Rotations for Psych Residency

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SwimB86

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I'm considering away rotations for "audition" rotations in the fall. I realize that these rotations can be double edged - they help you if you do well but hurt if perceived performance is poor. On the other hand applying to residency simply with a decent transcript and interview iin and of itself isnt going to hurt at all.

with that said, are away rotations at some of the Big name institutions (or any institution) as important to audition for as it is for say Ortho (who I'm told need to do always to ensure the get in)?

Any advice appreciated.

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At very big names, I'd consider an away.

How big? The Univesity of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey Robert Wood Johnson Medical School General Psychiatry Residency Training Program seems like a pretty big name.
 
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I'm considering away rotations for "audition" rotations in the fall. I realize that these rotations can be double edged - they help you if you do well but hurt if perceived performance is poor. On the other hand applying to residency simply with a decent transcript and interview iin and of itself isnt going to hurt at all.

with that said, are away rotations at some of the Big name institutions (or any institution) as important to audition for as it is for say Ortho (who I'm told need to do always to ensure the get in)?

Any advice appreciated.

I'm a DO student who matched at a place that I didn't do an audition rotation, although I did do a rotation at a community site nearby where a doc was well known to the program and wrote me a letter.

Audition rotations early in the year are useful for getting good letters. You want good letters though, so putting your best foot forward is important. I did 2 "real" audition rotations, at my #2 spot, and at my lowest ranked spot (because it was near home really, and I had free housing).

The rotations at my lowest ranked program actually wound up helping greatly because my attending knew people at my #1 and called the PD on my behalf, which I'm sure helped greatly. Yes, that means I told my #Last that I preferred another program over them, but I had to because I was offered a pre-match almost before I walked in the door, and had to tell them why I was politely declining.

The point is, audition rotations can help you. I think they tend to help more than they hurt the average person by showing you're a hard worker, you can work on their team, and you're not a weirdo.

I wouldn't say they are absolutely necessary in psych though. Most people I know matched at places they did not audition at, and statistically speaking, psych hasn't historically been that competitive. I would try to do one or two, but don't knock yourself out or spend thousands of dollars doing it.
 
You're listed as pre-medical. Clarify?

Editted ;) Medical Student, Third Year.

Obvioulsy, for "Big Names" I refer to programs with a big reputation and/or widely recognized and/or programs that one might perceive as being prestigious. Although, I would also prefer just any general advise any Psychiatric Resident or Attending has to offfer regarding strategy / necessity for away rotations.

st2205 - the school you chose as an example does indeed have a long name, but I wouldn't call it a big one. But thanks for your input.
 
I didn't do any away rotations and I matched at my #1.
 
How big? The Univesity of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey Robert Wood Johnson Medical School General Psychiatry Residency Training Program seems like a pretty big name.

Not sure exactly what is going to happen with the name, but now "Rutgers" or "at Rutgers" is going to be inserted in there as well. Here's hoping for the biggest name out there :)

I totally agree with everything digitlnoize said. For the big name places, you probably need one, but otherwise you are fine without one. I would wager that the vast majority of psychiatry residents did not do an audition rotation at their residency. With that said an audition rotation should really help you not hurt you. If it ends up hurting you, chances are you aren't going to have had a great experience at that site either and you'll be happy you won't be going there for residency. This gives you a chance to take the residency for a test drive.
 
If you go to a school that is not known outside of the region, then an away rotation will help the "big name program" get comfortable with the idea of ranking a medical student from a relatively unknown medical school. On one of the admissions committees I've sat on, there was a lot of talk around the table about the merits of ranking a student from Podunk University ("I didn't even know they had a medical school", "it says here she got 6 honors, but what do honors at this school really mean anyway?"). Sometimes the sub-I would be a mitigating factor ("I have no idea where Podunk U is, but he did his sub-I here and Dr Smith says he was good") but it was never fully mitigating ("but Dr Smith says everyone is good"). In general, because grading for fourth year clerkships, even sub-I's, tends to be more lenient, the away rotation won't help you make up too much ground, but it's something.

In terms of the content of your away rotation, the advice I give to students generally depends on the function of the away rotation. If you are trying to impress and/or get a letter for that specific institution, then do a sub-I. There may be specific corner solutions but in general a non-sub-I away rotation would be a waste of your time. If you are not trying to impress (e.g., if you feel like your application could be fairly strong for that institution's applicant pool) but rather are simply trying to see what life is like at the institution and possibly trying to get a feel for the city and stuff like that, then don't do a sub-I, just do a subspecialty rotation. An away sub-I can be stressful, so why put yourself through it if you don't have to?
 
Agree that it could be useful, essentially if it's out of reach. You need to nail it, though. The biggest difficulty IMHO is learning a whole new hospital system. I did an away rotation and no one oriented me (on a C/L rotation), so I spent the first week just finding my feet. I'm pretty sure that did not reflect well on me.
 
How big? The Univesity of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey Robert Wood Johnson Medical School General Psychiatry Residency Training Program seems like a pretty big name.

No. If you come from an average school and have average numbers, places like Harvard, Stanford, etc. may be considered a reach. If you consider a school to be a reach based on your scores, do an away there if you want to increase your chances.

It is hard to be more specific without knowing your application.
 
As an Osteopathic Applicant, would you guys recommend doing more than my 3rd year core in Psychiatry? So far that's the only Psych rotation that I have completed. I'm still debating between psych/IM/EM and so I'm not sure if I have space during my 4th year electives to add on a psych rotation.
 
As an Osteopathic Applicant, would you guys recommend doing more than my 3rd year core in Psychiatry? So far that's the only Psych rotation that I have completed. I'm still debating between psych/IM/EM and so I'm not sure if I have space during my 4th year electives to add on a psych rotation.

I did my core in 3rd year, and also one elective late in 3rd year. Did 1.5 auditions before submitting my app, but they didn't count towards applications in any way, I think I would've gotten interviews at those places anyways.

I DO think that psych letters are generally slightly more important than in some other fields. If your letter writers convey your sincere interest, I think that really helps. Almost every one of my interviewers commented on my LOR's. Also, you'll probably want 2 letter writers in your field of choice, so there's that.

If you want more advice, feel free to PM me and I'll tell you my story. Short version: DO student, average grades, average COMLEX, no USMLE, 2 psych letters, 1 medicine letter. Applied to ~30 places, MD only (way too many, but overkill is better than not enough kill). Got interviews at pretty much every place I applied, except the ones I withdrew from after the offers came rolling in. Interviewed at 15, ranked 13, matched at #1.

Reasons I didn't choose IM or EM:

IM: I liked cards, but declining salaries, eternal fellowship didn't interest me. Also competitive and it's highly probably you can wind up in general IM, which would suck. Hospitalisting isn't "bad", but I don't love it either. Shift work, forever. It's like your a waiter, but in a hospital. You won't want to be doing that when you're 40 with a spouse and kids. You'll want to go home and 5 and on the weekends like a normal human being. Difficult to do in IM/EM.

EM: I like EM. I really do. Again, not a fan of the rotating 24 coverage shifts. Not forever. Also, and this is some magic 8 ball work on my part, which you're free to disagree with, I emphatically believe that EM will be a HEAVILY over saturated market within the next 10-20 years. As the gov't runs out of money, they'll have to start making some changes to EMTALA, or at least what types of ER visits will be covered, because they can't afford to keep paying ER docs to do primary care. Primary care ED visits currently account for a huge % of all ER visits (25-50%+ depending on who you believe), and if you take away most of those visits, and the frequent fliers, you'll have a LOT of ER docs twiddling their thumbs. Also, EM has been one of the fastest growing fields for many years, and has one of the lowest average ages amongst practicing physicians.

Contrast this with Psych, which has a crazy shortage of providers, one of the HIGHEST average ages (which will only make the shortage worse), no EMTALA crap, great hours, reasonable (if underestimated) pay, time to talk to patients (usually), and great, interesting pathology, and it's a no-brainer to me. I also happened to enjoy psych the most, and I want my own office, so the low overhead appealed to me.
 
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I did my core in 3rd year, and also one elective late in 3rd year. Did 1.5 auditions before submitting my app, but they didn't count towards applications in any way, I think I would've gotten interviews at those places anyways.

I DO think that psych letters are generally slightly more important than in some other fields. If your letter writers convey your sincere interest, I think that really helps. Almost every one of my interviewers commented on my LOR's. Also, you'll probably want 2 letter writers in your field of choice, so there's that.

If you want more advice, feel free to PM me and I'll tell you my story. Short version: DO student, average grades, average COMLEX, no USMLE, 2 psych letters, 1 medicine letter. Applied to ~30 places, MD only (way too many, but overkill is better than not enough kill). Got interviews at pretty much every place I applied, except the ones I withdrew from after the offers came rolling in. Interviewed at 15, ranked 13, matched at #1.

Reasons I didn't choose IM or EM:

IM: I liked cards, but declining salaries, eternal fellowship didn't interest me. Also competitive and it's highly probably you can wind up in general IM, which would suck. Hospitalisting isn't "bad", but I don't love it either. Shift work, forever. It's like your a waiter, but in a hospital. You won't want to be doing that when you're 40 with a spouse and kids. You'll want to go home and 5 and on the weekends like a normal human being. Difficult to do in IM/EM.

EM: I like EM. I really do. Again, not a fan of the rotating 24 coverage shifts. Not forever. Also, and this is some magic 8 ball work on my part, which you're free to disagree with, I emphatically believe that EM will be a HEAVILY over saturated market within the next 10-20 years. As the gov't runs out of money, they'll have to start making some changes to EMTALA, or at least what types of ER visits will be covered, because they can't afford to keep paying ER docs to do primary care. Primary care ED visits currently account for a huge % of all ER visits (25-50%+ depending on who you believe), and if you take away most of those visits, and the frequent fliers, you'll have a LOT of ER docs twiddling their thumbs. Also, EM has been one of the fastest growing fields for many years, and has one of the lowest average ages amongst practicing physicians.

Contrast this with Psych, which has a crazy shortage of providers, one of the HIGHEST average ages (which will only make the shortage worse), no EMTALA crap, great hours, reasonable (if underestimated) pay, time to talk to patients (usually), and great, interesting pathology, and it's a no-brainer to me. I also happened to enjoy psych the most, and I want my own office, so the low overhead appealed to me.

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definitely do an away if it's your #1 and #2
especially because you will most likely get your 3 choices, you want to make sure you like the program as well

I did an rotation at both of my #1 and #2 (back in Sept and Oct)
After 2 weeks at my #1, I realized how cocky the attendings were with regards to their "reputation". These are things you can't pick up during interview days. I decided that my then #1 would not suit my personality at all (didn't end up ranking it at all) and I ended up falling in love with my then #2 (ranking it #1 at the end)

Now I am getting ready to move to my then #2 =D
 
Just switching into psych rather last minute... am I too late to the game for away electives? Have deadlines already passed for the most part? (been away from school on research year and haven't really been to the relevant meetings) what is the process for applying to them?

Would appreciate any advice!


definitely do an away if it's your #1 and #2
especially because you will most likely get your 3 choices, you want to make sure you like the program as well

I did an rotation at both of my #1 and #2 (back in Sept and Oct)
After 2 weeks at my #1, I realized how cocky the attendings were with regards to their "reputation". These are things you can't pick up during interview days. I decided that my then #1 would not suit my personality at all (didn't end up ranking it at all) and I ended up falling in love with my then #2 (ranking it #1 at the end)

Now I am getting ready to move to my then #2 =D
 
Just switching into psych rather last minute... am I too late to the game for away electives? Have deadlines already passed for the most part? (been away from school on research year and haven't really been to the relevant meetings) what is the process for applying to them?

Would appreciate any advice!

Many institutions have web sites where you can look up this information easily. For example, UCLA: http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/visitingstudents/
 
It depends on the school. Log on to VSAS and you can check out the deadlines. I know that some schools just started accepting applications at the beginning of May.
 
has anyone ever had problems with away rotations conflicting with interviews?

I was so sure I should do an away elective because I wanted to see what things were like somewhere other than my home institution and because I come from a school that I think is probably not very known (University of Puerto Rico).

I am scheduling 1 away rotation for either october or nov but if that is going to be an issue then maybe I should reconsider?
 
has anyone ever had problems with away rotations conflicting with interviews?

I was so sure I should do an away elective because I wanted to see what things were like somewhere other than my home institution and because I come from a school that I think is probably not very known (University of Puerto Rico).

I am scheduling 1 away rotation for either october or nov but if that is going to be an issue then maybe I should reconsider?

No because I did my two aways to end by November, but if I hadn't, I definitely would have had several conflicts, which I think is definitely not a good thing. Always better to do one fewer away and do it well than to have to ask for time off during an away in my book...
 
has anyone ever had problems with away rotations conflicting with interviews?

I was so sure I should do an away elective because I wanted to see what things were like somewhere other than my home institution and because I come from a school that I think is probably not very known (University of Puerto Rico).

I am scheduling 1 away rotation for either october or nov but if that is going to be an issue then maybe I should reconsider?

I think a lot of this depends on your particular rotation, your attending, how many interviews, etc.

I did one interview during an away C-L rotation which was totally ok with my C-L attending and never really crossed the desk of the PD. Also, they are a very relaxed place and were really fine with it.

To me, if a place is going to penalize me for going on an interview during interview season, it's probably not a place I'd want to be. Everyone knows that you're not just interviewing at their program, and if you have a good reason (and saving money is a good one) and not abusing the privilege, I don't really see the problem in doing an interview during an away...many people will disagree.

I'll add that psych is pretty non-competitive, and I matched at my #1 as a DO student without an away there.
 
Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned doing an away rotation for the reverse purpose: interviewing them.
I did an away rotation at a Big Univ., thinking I wanted to go there. I ended up not really liking the program or the city much at all (though I did learn quite a bit). I found the program and residents much more concerned with their reputation than with the patients or even their education. However, I got a couple letters from there - one of which was from a very experienced psych nurse who'd seen lots of students and residents. I think the letter from the attending at Big U. and the fact that I thought the opinion of a career psych nurse was important both helped me get into my #1.
 
I am an MD student coming to the end of my 3rd year. I didn't decide on psych fully until this month. I'm concerned I don't have any research in experience in psych (I have undergrad research in cardiology and med school research in ophtho). My step 1 is a 216--I haven't taken step 2. And I currently have no letters of rec--I'm going to ask for them early 4th year during my psych rotations.


Ideally I'd like to get to a school in NYC--ie NYU, or Columbia--am I delusional to think I have a shot at these programs?

Will research in my 4th year help?
 
I'd be surprised if you didn't get an interview at NYU, not sure about columbia which is one of the highly competitive psych programs. you didn't mention how you did in your clerkships this is key really. it is a bit late to be fiddling about with psych research now and it is not necessary to have done psychiatry research. You don't mention about publications from this research, certainly more important than research experience. As you are a latecomer you should use your personal statement to describe your epiphany and do something that shows an commitment to the specialty, this certainly does not have to be research, and if you're not interested in research you are well advised to stay away.
 
I am an MD student coming to the end of my 3rd year. I didn't decide on psych fully until this month. I'm concerned I don't have any research in experience in psych (I have undergrad research in cardiology and med school research in ophtho). My step 1 is a 216--I haven't taken step 2. And I currently have no letters of rec--I'm going to ask for them early 4th year during my psych rotations.


Ideally I'd like to get to a school in NYC--ie NYU, or Columbia--am I delusional to think I have a shot at these programs?

Will research in my 4th year help?

Specifically with regards to being a latecomer, I wouldn't worry about it. (I didn't decide on psych until my last rotation.)

Not knowing anything more about your application, I would say that NYU is a possibility but Columbia is probably a reach. But that shouldn't stop you from applying.
 
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