Can a Preceptor talk bad about you to other students

[Xbocker]

My friend took surgery last year with this preceptor and I am currently rotating with the preceptor at the moment and he keeps telling me how bad my friend was, commenting on how horrible he was and yes he referred to him by his name. Is this appropriate. I feel like its not fair and stuff like this should be kept private.

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[Top Gun]

Its not appropriate, but strictly speaking, there's no rules against it. Preceptors at one horrible hospital I rotated in as a med student did it all the time.

 

[dyspareunia]

My friend took surgery last year with this preceptor and I am currently rotating with the preceptor at the moment and he keeps telling me how bad my friend was, commenting on how horrible he was and yes he referred to him by his name. Is this appropriate. I feel like its not fair and stuff like this should be kept private.

You think professional opinions about under performing colleagues should be kept private?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

My friend took surgery last year with this preceptor and I am currently rotating with the preceptor at the moment and he keeps telling me how bad my friend was, commenting on how horrible he was and yes he referred to him by his name. Is this appropriate. I feel like its not fair and stuff like this should be kept private.

Totally inappropriate. I would put it in his eval and let the school know too. It's unprofessional.

You think professional opinions about under performing colleagues should be kept private?

Uh, yes. You're a STUDENT. You can call them colleagues and pretend that what they do matters, but their skill, knowledge, and talent has absolutely no impact on you or your patients. You have no right right nor reason to know who is performing well and who isn't. In fact, it's quite unprofessional for a preceptor to tell you.

 

[Wordead]

Happens all the time, right or wrong. I'd look at it as motivation not to be that guy.

 

[DermViser]

My friend took surgery last year with this preceptor and I am currently rotating with the preceptor at the moment and he keeps telling me how bad my friend was, commenting on how horrible he was and yes he referred to him by his name. Is this appropriate. I feel like its not fair and stuff like this should be kept private.

He's a human being with flaws, so yes. Definitely happens more with residents though. Use it as a learning tool of what NOT to do.

 

[neusu]

My friend took surgery last year with this preceptor and I am currently rotating with the preceptor at the moment and he keeps telling me how bad my friend was, commenting on how horrible he was and yes he referred to him by his name. Is this appropriate. I feel like its not fair and stuff like this should be kept private.

Being the gadfly I am I would try to goad my preceptors in to these kinds of discussions. Fortunately (or unfortunately for me), they only bragged about my classmates. Nonetheless, I had to show them up.

 

[Bacchus]

How else is one to form a do-not-refer list?

 

[dyspareunia]

Totally inappropriate. I would put it in his eval and let the school know too. It's unprofessional.



Uh, yes. You're a STUDENT. You can call them colleagues and pretend that what they do matters, but their skill, knowledge, and talent has absolutely no impact on you or your patients. You have no right right nor reason to know who is performing well and who isn't. In fact, it's quite unprofessional for a preceptor to tell you.

You can't be serious. I agree that it is very unlikely that a med student will do anything significant to help the patient, but it is not far-fetched to believe that an unprofessional student with poor medical knowledge can harm patients.

If you want your talents, knowledge, and skills to be valued and praised (as a med student), then it's only fair that you accept when your shortcomings are used as examples of what not to do.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

You can't be serious. I agree that it is very unlikely that a med student will do anything significant to help the patient, but it is not far-fetched to believe that an unprofessional student with poor medical knowledge can harm patients

If you want your talents, knowledge, and skills to be valued and praised (as a med student), then it's only fair that you accept when your shortcomings are used as examples of what not to do.

How can a student with poor knowledge harm patients?

Have you done rotations yet? Third years, especially those lacking knowledge, don't have the power or autonomy to do much of anything without someone doing it right after that. The exception may be asking questions (HPI). Even when you take a blood pressure, someone will likely do it after you to make sure you did it right. If they trust you, they may let you draw blood or start an IV, but the key phrase is "if they trust you" and it certainly won't be when you first start. It's absolutely NONE of your business how your classmates do. None whatsoever. If an attending wanted to warn you not to do something, he can say "I once had a student do such and such. Don't do that." There is no reason for you to know who it was, just like there is no reason for you to know that John Smith didn't know the most likely cause of post-op fever within the first 24 hours or that Suzie Q didn't know the indications for GI prophylaxis in non-ICU patients. Attendings can pimp you on those things without telling you which of your classmates didn't know it.

 

[dyspareunia]

How can a student with poor knowledge harm patients?

Have you done rotations yet? Third years, especially those lacking knowledge, don't have the power or autonomy to do much of anything without someone doing it right after that. The exception may be asking questions (HPI). Even when you take a blood pressure, someone will likely do it after you to make sure you did it right. If they trust you, they may let you draw blood or start an IV, but the key phrase is "if they trust you" and it certainly won't be when you first start. It's absolutely NONE of your business how your classmates do. None whatsoever. If an attending wanted to warn you not to do something, he can say "I once had a student do such and such. Don't do that." There is no reason for you to know who it was, just like there is no reason for you to know that John Smith didn't know the most likely cause of post-op fever within the first 24 hours or that Suzie Q didn't know the indications for GI prophylaxis in non-ICU patients. Attendings can pimp you on those things without telling you which of your classmates didn't know it.

There's more ways to harm a patient than physically. The OP said the comments made were about how "horrible" and "bad" the other student was. Being a jerk to patients, asking them inappropriate questions, giving them bad medical advice (i.e. all things you can do during a routine H&P) counts as harming the patient.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

There's more ways to harm a patient than physically. The OP said the comments made were about how "horrible" and "bad" the other student was. Being a jerk to patients, asking them inappropriate questions, giving them bad medical advice (i.e. all things you can do during a routine H&P) counts as harming the patient.

And you need to know this why exactly?

You took the OP's post and put your own spin on it. Nowhere did it say the student was inappropriate or unprofessional (and even if they were, it still isn't your business since this happened a year earlier).

 

[DrBowtie]

How can a student with poor knowledge harm patients?

Have you done rotations yet? Third years, especially those lacking knowledge, don't have the power or autonomy to do much of anything without someone doing it right after that. The exception may be asking questions (HPI). Even when you take a blood pressure, someone will likely do it after you to make sure you did it right. If they trust you, they may let you draw blood or start an IV, but the key phrase is "if they trust you" and it certainly won't be when you first start. It's absolutely NONE of your business how your classmates do. None whatsoever. If an attending wanted to warn you not to do something, he can say "I once had a student do such and such. Don't do that." There is no reason for you to know who it was, just like there is no reason for you to know that John Smith didn't know the most likely cause of post-op fever within the first 24 hours or that Suzie Q didn't know the indications for GI prophylaxis in non-ICU patients. Attendings can pimp you on those things without telling you which of your classmates didn't know it.

You are assuming that the students know they have poor knowledge.

The most dangerous student/doctor is the one who doesn't know they don't know what they are doing.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

You are assuming that the students know they have poor knowledge.

The most dangerous student/doctor is the one who doesn't know they don't know what they are doing.

Very true, but what does that have to do with the discussion we're having? Even a student who doesn't know they have poor knowledge doesn't have the autonomy to do much of anything third year.

 

[DrBowtie]

Very true, but what does that have to do with the discussion we're having? Even a student who doesn't know they have poor knowledge doesn't have the autonomy to do much of anything third year.

Believe it or not most residents don't keep track of the med students exact whereabouts.

They can easily walk into a patients room, discuss anything including new results, provide false information, do invasive Physical exam maneuvers, do minor procedures, mess with the IV pumps when they inevitably beep, etc. All of these under the umbrella of "providing care". The same goes for the intern with even more ability to do stupid stuff like central line people who don't need them.

The fact that you don't believe me makes me think you've luckily never met the over zealous know it all med student or intern.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Believe it or not most residents don't keep track of the med students exact whereabouts

They can easily walk into a patients room, discuss anything including new results, provide false information, do invasive Physical exam maneuvers, do minor procedures, mess with the IV pumps when they inevitably beep, etc

All of these under the umbrella of "providing care". The same goes for the intern with even more ability to do stupid stuff like central line people who don't need them

I have never heard of a student doing an invasive physical exam without supervision or permission being allowed back in the hospital as that is a major breach of professional ethics and could be considered malpractice, none of which the OP alluded to in the original post. This post was about a student who was "horrible," which in third year terms, usually means they were behind the curve in knowledge and/or they were lazy, late to work, etc., not that they were going into patient's rooms and doing invasive physicals for the hell of it. Let's not change the scenario just to defend our opinion.

The fact that you don't believe me makes me think you've luckily never met the over zealous know it all med student or intern.

When did I say I didn't believe you. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

 

[DrBowtie]

I have never heard of a student doing an invasive physical exam without supervision or permission being allowed back in the hospital as that is a major breach of professional ethics and could be considered malpractice, none of which the OP alluded to in the original post. This post was about a student who was "horrible," which in third year terms, usually means they were behind the curve in knowledge and/or they were lazy, late to work, etc., not that they were going into patient's rooms and doing invasive physicals for the hell of it. Let's not change the scenario just to defend our opinion.



When did I say I didn't believe you. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

Geez. It's not adversarial.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I'm not being adversarial. I'm just saying I never said I don't believe you. My point from the start has been that no med student has a right (or reason) to know that another med student is underperforming and I'd argue that a preceptor who criticizes a med student to his/her colleagues is being grossly unprofessional and inappropriate.

 

[Wordead]

I'm not being adversarial. I'm just saying I never said I don't believe you. My point from the start has been that no med student has a right (or reason) to know that another med student is underperforming and I'd argue that a preceptor who criticizes a med student to his/her colleagues is being grossly unprofessional and inappropriate.

I agree, but on the list of "unprofessional things preceptors have done" it's pretty low on the list. I've heard attendings trash other attendings, nurses, administrators, and just about everyone and everything under the sun.

 

[Top Gun]

It is unprofessional for attendings to talk to students about underperforming classmates. Students are still on a steep learning curve. If there is a concern about a student's performance, the attending/resident needs to address it directly with the student, either through formal evaluations or through verbal feedback. Gossiping about the student's performance to residents or classmates does nothing to help the student improve. Furthermore, every student makes mistakes. How can they not? Its a part of the learning process. Any classmate who gossips about a fellow student's performance is a hypocrite, because chances are that that classmate made some boneheaded mistakes himself/herself. Same thing with attendings. When they were students, they made plenty of mistakes themselves.

Unfortunately, this sort of bull$hit is tolerated way too much in medical training. Everyone needs to get the f&ck over themselves, check their egos at the door, and concentrating on improving their own performance rather than trashing that of others.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree that it is unprofessional and unnecessary. I have been honest with students and told them, at the outset of the rotation when discussing expectations, what has disappointed me in students past, but would never mention names.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I agree that it is unprofessional and unnecessary. I have been honest with students and told them, at the outset of the rotation when discussing expectations, what has disappointed me in students past, but would never mention names.

Yeah, the only time I discuss previous med students is in the context of horror stories of what not to do (e.g. don't show up for rounds on a saturday morning disheveled, visibly hungover, and reeking of alcohol), or of very whitewashed/anonymized examples of how students end up with a mediocre to bad evaluation.

 

[pdxhopeful]

Yeah, the only time I discuss previous med students is in the context of horror stories of what not to do (e.g. don't show up for rounds on a saturday morning disheveled, visibly hungover, and reeking of alcohol), or of very whitewashed/anonymized examples of how students end up with a mediocre to bad evaluation.

Yup. As a student I'd also like to know if previous students from my school have on average been particularly weak on something so I can put some additional time into that area or skill (because odds are I'm not the exception) but that in no way requires using names, etc.

 

[dyspareunia]

And you need to know this why exactly?

You took the OP's post and put your own spin on it. Nowhere did it say the student was inappropriate or unprofessional (and even if they were, it still isn't your business since this happened a year earlier).

I'm not saying I need to know things about my colleagues/classmates. I'm saying that it is not inappropriate for an attending to share his/her opinion of one student with another student. I'm also saying that underperforming medical students, residents, attendings, etc need to be used as examples of what not to do. Simply keeping poor performance to yourself because you think it's inappropriate or unprofessional to share that information is how patients get hurt.

Are you perhaps defensive because you are an underperformer? Not trying to be a jerk, but I can see where you're coming from if that's the case. I personally wouldn't like it if my attending was telling my classmate how poorly I did an H&P, but that doesn't change the fact that I did poorly and should be used as an example of what not to do. It's part of the learning process imo.

 

[Top Gun]

I'm not saying I need to know things about my colleagues/classmates. I'm saying that it is not inappropriate for an attending to share his/her opinion of one student with another student. I'm also saying that underperforming medical students, residents, attendings, etc need to be used as examples of what not to do. Simply keeping poor performance to yourself because you think it's inappropriate or unprofessional to share that information is how patients get hurt.

Are you perhaps defensive because you are an underperformer? Not trying to be a jerk, but I can see where you're coming from if that's the case. I personally wouldn't like it if my attending was telling my classmate how poorly I did an H&P, but that doesn't change the fact that I did poorly and should be used as an example of what not to do. It's part of the learning process imo.

Have you ever thought that just maybe the attending could simply mention examples of mistakes made by previous students, without actually giving the names of the students who made the mistakes? That would be a good way to teach without humiliation. I have no doubt that you, like most students, have made plenty of dumb mistakes of your own during clinical rotations. I very much doubt that you were the perfect med student, who could always answer the inevitable pimp questions, and who never forgot to ask certain questions while doing an H&P. And I'm sure if your errors were broadcast, with your name mentioned, you wouldn't be able to handle it. It is appropriate to give examples of errors made by previous students. What is inappropriate is bringing the student's name into the equation. Also, you are way out of line assuming that Elisabeth Kate is an underperforming student simply because she doesn't think its appropriate for an attending to mention the names of underperforming students to their classmates.

 

[dyspareunia]

Have you ever thought that just maybe the attending could simply mention examples of mistakes made by previous students, without actually giving the names of the students who made the mistakes? That would be a good way to teach without humiliation. I have no doubt that you, like most students, have made plenty of dumb mistakes of your own during clinical rotations. I very much doubt that you were the perfect med student, who could always answer the inevitable pimp questions, and who never forgot to ask certain questions while doing an H&P. And I'm sure if your errors were broadcast, with your name mentioned, you wouldn't be able to handle it. It is not appropriate to give examples of errors made by previous students. What is inappropriate is bringing the student's name into the equation.

I just finished M1 so no rotations yet, but professors have used me (by name) on occasion as an example of what not to do. I'm not denying that it sucks, but I don't think it's inappropriate. Personally if I know that the example being used is a colleague or friend of mine then I am more inclined to it seriously. Also if I know that my mistakes may be shared with colleagues, then I am more likely to work harder and be better so I don't embarrass myself again.

My generation is great at not taking responsibility for the things we do and what we are discussing right now is a great way to resolve that.

 

[Top Gun]

I just finished M1 so no rotations yet, but professors have used me (by name) on occasion as an example of what not to do. I'm not denying that it sucks, but I don't think it's inappropriate. Personally if I know that the example being used is a colleague or friend of mine then I am more inclined to it seriously. Also if I know that my mistakes may be shared with colleagues, then I am more likely to work harder and be better so I don't embarrass myself again.

My generation is great at not taking responsibility for the things we do and what we are discussing right now is a great way to resolve that.

The student who made the errors can still take responsibility, through evaluations and verbal feedback given directly by the attending/resident to the student. The student can use those to improve. Gossiping about a student's errors does nothing to help him/her improve. In fact, it actually does the opposite. Its unprofessional, humiliating, and completely unnecessary. And I say this as an attending who is now in private practice.

And by the way, there is a big difference between performance in first year and third year of med school. As a first year, all you have to do is study and pass your exams. Third year performance not only includes book learning, but also clinical performance, and how well-liked you are by staff. Its a lot more subjective than first year. When you get to third year, we'll see if you have the same attitude.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I'm not saying I need to know things about my colleagues/classmates. I'm saying that it is not inappropriate for an attending to share his/her opinion of one student with another student. I'm also saying that underperforming medical students, residents, attendings, etc need to be used as examples of what not to do. Simply keeping poor performance to yourself because you think it's inappropriate or unprofessional to share that information is how patients get hurt

Ok, you've got several upperclassmen, residents, and two attendings all saying you're wrong and you're still clinging to your belief.

Are you perhaps defensive because you are an underperformer? Not trying to be a jerk, but I can see where you're coming from if that's the case. I personally wouldn't like it if my attending was telling my classmate how poorly I did an H&P, but that doesn't change the fact that I did poorly and should be used as an example of what not to do. It's part of the learning process imo.

Believe it or not, one can be against something that doesn't personally affect them. I know that's a shocking perspective to some, but it's true. All my HP's and H's on rotations pretty much discount the theory that I was ever singled out as an underperformer by an attending.

Have you ever thought that just maybe the attending could simply mention examples of mistakes made by previous students, without actually giving the names of the students who made the mistakes? That would be a good way to teach without humiliation. I have no doubt that you, like most students, have made plenty of dumb mistakes of your own during clinical rotations. I very much doubt that you were the perfect med student, who could always answer the inevitable pimp questions, and who never forgot to ask certain questions while doing an H&P. And I'm sure if your errors were broadcast, with your name mentioned, you wouldn't be able to handle it. It is not appropriate to give examples of errors made by previous students. What is inappropriate is bringing the student's name into the equation. Also, you are way out of line assuming that Elisabeth Kate is an underperforming student simply because she doesn't think its appropriate for an attending to mention the names of underperforming students to their classmates.

Thank you, Top Gun.

 

[DermViser]

I just finished M1 so no rotations yet, but professors have used me (by name) on occasion as an example of what not to do.

WTF. Seriously? PhD professors?

 

[wholeheartedly]

I just finished M1 so no rotations yet, but professors have used me (by name) on occasion as an example of what not to do. I'm not denying that it sucks, but I don't think it's inappropriate. Personally if I know that the example being used is a colleague or friend of mine then I am more inclined to it seriously. Also if I know that my mistakes may be shared with colleagues, then I am more likely to work harder and be better so I don't embarrass myself again.

My generation is great at not taking responsibility for the things we do and what we are discussing right now is a great way to resolve that.

As Top Gun noted, what's being discussed in the OPs situation isn't being done to improve someone's performance, it's being done as petty gossip.

Also there are rules governing the release of a students academic performance to anyone not authorized to have it. While this would probably be considered a gray area, it isn't much different than a prof naming an undergrad and saying so and so was a terrible student and got Ds on all of her quizzes which is a violation of student privacy laws.

So no it isn't appropriate to release a name to you another student while describing how awful they were. It isn't your responsibility as a fellow student to try to correct this students behavior or keep an eye on him in some way because you really aren't qualified. Yes it does happen anyway despite being douchey. People never tire of trash talking others.

 

[Wordead]

As Top Gun noted, what's being discussed in the OPs situation isn't being done to improve someone's performance, it's being done as petty gossip.

Also there are rules governing the release of a students academic performance to anyone not authorized to have it. While this would probably be considered a gray area, it isn't much different than a prof naming an undergrad and saying so and so was a terrible student and got Ds on all of her quizzes which is a violation of student privacy laws.

So no it isn't appropriate to release a name to you another student while describing how awful they were. It isn't your responsibility as a fellow student to try to correct this students behavior or keep an eye on him in some way because you really aren't qualified. Yes it does happen anyway despite being douchey. People never tire of trash talking others.

What are student privacy laws? Is that a real thing?

 

[wholeheartedly]

What are student privacy laws? Is that a real thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Educational_Rights_and_Privacy_Act

 

[dyspareunia]

The student who made the errors can still take responsibility, through evaluations and verbal feedback given directly by the attending/resident to the student. The student can use those to improve. Gossiping about a student's errors does nothing to help him/her improve. In fact, it actually does the opposite. Its unprofessional, humiliating, and completely unnecessary. And I say this as an attending who is now in private practice.

And by the way, there is a big difference between performance in first year and third year of med school. As a first year, all you have to do is study and pass your exams. Third year performance not only includes book learning, but also clinical performance, and how well-liked you are by staff. Its a lot more subjective than first year. When you get to third year, we'll see if you have the same attitude.

Some schools let you choose which attendings/residents write your evals, so not every person a student works with will get an opportunity to officially evaluate them. Perhaps the attending was using the student as an example to teach the other student (the OP)?

When I used myself as an example I wasn't referring to academics. I was talking about mistakes I made in skill based activities.. like anatomy lab and clinical skills practice sessions. "Performance" in the latter includes book learning, clinical performance, and how well the preceptors view you. Obviously not the same as third year, but definitely not the same as the usual pre-clinical classes either.

Ok, you've got several upperclassmen, residents, and two attendings all saying you're wrong and you're still clinging to your belief.

Why should I change my opinion because a few people on the internet disagree with it? I respect everyone's opinion and I certainly realize I am in the minority here, but I don't think my beliefs and opinions should change to suit the desires of strangers. Perhaps if we were discussing something like which procedure to do on a patient, then I would look to the residents and attendings for guidance

WTF. Seriously? PhD professors?

One PhD and one MD. I was in the room for one of them (PhD), but the other I heard about from my friends.

As Top Gun noted, what's being discussed in the OPs situation isn't being done to improve someone's performance, it's being done as petty gossip.

Also there are rules governing the release of a students academic performance to anyone not authorized to have it. While this would probably be considered a gray area, it isn't much different than a prof naming an undergrad and saying so and so was a terrible student and got Ds on all of her quizzes which is a violation of student privacy laws.

So no it isn't appropriate to release a name to you another student while describing how awful they were. It isn't your responsibility as a fellow student to try to correct this students behavior or keep an eye on him in some way because you really aren't qualified. Yes it does happen anyway despite being douchey. People never tire of trash talking others.

I disagree that it's "petty gossip". I'm not familiar with the attending-medical student relationship, but I personally would not engage in "petty gossip" with someone who is many years my junior both in age and in education. "Petty gossip", at least in my experience, has been reserved for peers, friends, and colleagues. I'm holding to the belief that the attendings in the OP was using the other student as an example for learning/teaching experience.

To add another perspective, perhaps I feel so strongly about this because I don't want to believe that the professors who did the same thing to me this year did it just to be dbags. Maybe believing that something good would come from my experience with this is what helped me cope with it when it happened. I use "perhaps" and "maybe" because I don't know if that's the case or not. Not because I am telling you that's the case, but don't want to openly admit it.

Good point about FERPA. I'm not sure if the attending is actually in violation, but there are certainly laws prohibiting similar things in more traditional education settings.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

I feel like I'm talking to someone in pre-allo.

 

[Top Gun]

Some schools let you choose which attendings/residents write your evals, so not every person a student works with will get an opportunity to officially evaluate them. Perhaps the attending was using the student as an example to teach the other student (the OP)?

When I used myself as an example I wasn't referring to academics. I was talking about mistakes I made in skill based activities.. like anatomy lab and clinical skills practice sessions. "Performance" in the latter includes book learning, clinical performance, and how well the preceptors view you. Obviously not the same as third year, but definitely not the same as the usual pre-clinical classes either.

The attending could have used the mistake the student made, rather the student himself/herself for teaching purposes. That's what you don't seem to get. I don't know how much clearer I can make that. Its completely unnecessary and unprofessional to name the student who made the mistake.

As for your evaluation in skill-based activities, we both know those only count for a small percentage of your grade in the preclinical years. The majority of your grade comes from exams. In third year, its the opposite. Most of your grade comes from clinical evaluations, which are highly subjective. And guess what, you could have very solid clinical skills and still not get as strong of an evaluation as you deserve, just because the preceptor doesn't like you. And how well the preceptor likes you doesn't necessarily even have anything to do with your clinical performance. It could be down to something as stupid as whether the preceptor likes the color of your shirts. So do not lecture to us about how trash-talking a student behind his/her back protects patients and motivates the student to learn when you haven't even started third year yet.

 

[Top Gun]

I disagree that it's "petty gossip". I'm not familiar with the attending-medical student relationship, but I personally would not engage in "petty gossip" with someone who is many years my junior both in age and in education. "Petty gossip", at least in my experience, has been reserved for peers, friends, and colleagues. I'm holding to the belief that the attendings in the OP was using the other student as an example for learning/teaching experience.

To add another perspective, perhaps I feel so strongly about this because I don't want to believe that the professors who did the same thing to me this year did it just to be dbags. Maybe believing that something good would come from my experience with this is what helped me cope with it when it happened. I use "perhaps" and "maybe" because I don't know if that's the case or not. Not because I am telling you that's the case, but don't want to openly admit it.

Sounds like a case of Stockholm Syndrome to me.

 

[DermViser]

So no it isn't appropriate to release a name to you another student while describing how awful they were. It isn't your responsibility as a fellow student to try to correct this students behavior or keep an eye on him in some way because you really aren't qualified. Yes it does happen anyway despite being douchey. People never tire of trash talking others.

Don't med schools do peer evaluations now for certain rotations?

 

[dyspareunia]

The attending could have used the mistake the student made, rather the student himself/herself for teaching purposes. That's what you don't seem to get. I don't know how much clearer I can make that. Its completely unnecessary and unprofessional to name the student who made the mistake.

As for your evaluation in skill-based activities, we both know those only count for a small percentage of your grade in the preclinical years. The majority of your grade comes from exams. In third year, its the opposite. Most of your grade comes from clinical evaluations, which are highly subjective. And guess what, you could have very solid clinical skills and still not get as strong of an evaluation as you deserve, just because the preceptor doesn't like you. And how well the preceptor likes you doesn't necessarily even have anything to do with your clinical performance. It could be down to something as stupid as whether the preceptor likes the color of your shirts. So do not lecture to us about how trash-talking a student behind his/her back protects patients and motivates the student to learn when you haven't even started third year yet.

I'm not lecturing anyone. I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that fear of being embarrassed can be a strong motivator. I'm not saying I know what it's like to be an MS3. But I don't need to be an MS3 to know what types of incentives people are motivated by. We can agree to disagree, but it doesn't seem like you're willing to accept than a lowly MS1 has a different opinion than you.

Like I said before, some schools allow the student to choose which attendings to give evalulation forms to. If a student knows an attending didn't like them, they can just opt to have the other attendings they worked with do their evals.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Don't med schools do peer evaluations now for certain rotations?

My med school doesn't. I think that's a crappy way to do evals. Who isn't going to boost up their friends?

Like I said before, some schools allow the student to choose which attendings to give evalulation forms to. If a student knows an attending didn't like them, they can just opt to have the other attendings they worked with do their evals.

This is why no one takes what you say seriously. When you get to third year, you will realize that you can't just cherry pick your evaluators. If it worked like that, then everyone would honor everything. Look, no one's putting you down for being an MS1. We're saying you have no idea what you're talking about because you haven't been there. Would you take advice from a high schooler on how to get into med school? After all they don't need to be in med school to know what you need to do. Would you take advice from an undergrad on how anatomy lab should be run? They don't need to be in med school to understand classic teaching techniques. You haven't been there and it's obvious from your posts, there's a lot that you don't know. When you get there, then we'll talk.

 

[Top Gun]

I'm not lecturing anyone. I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that fear of being embarrassed can be a strong motivator. I'm not saying I know what it's like to be an MS3. But I don't need to be an MS3 to know what types of incentives people are motivated by. We can agree to disagree, but it doesn't seem like you're willing to accept than a lowly MS1 has a different opinion than you.

Like I said before, some schools allow the student to choose which attendings to give evalulation forms to. If a student knows an attending didn't like them, they can just opt to have the other attendings they worked with do their evals.

OK, when you get to your Ob/Gyn or surgery rotation in third year, and you find your preceptors not only yelling at you, but also talking about you behind your back to other students, we'll see how well you can take it. Trust me, the stuff your attendings and residents can do during clinical rotations will make those preclinical professors who "humiliated" you look like saints.

 

[DermViser]

OK, when you get to your Ob/Gyn or surgery rotation in third year, and you find your preceptors not only yelling at you, but also talking about you behind your back to other students, we'll see how well you can take it. Trust me, the stuff your attendings and residents can do during clinical rotations will make those preclinical professors who "humiliated" you look like saints.

I was just going to say if he thinks, mistakes in "anatomy lab and clinical skills practice sessions" is bad, he's seen nothing yet with Surgery and OB-Gyn residents.

 

[Bacchus]

There's no reason to use a name. There's no added benefit from "One of your classmates vomited into the abdomen" versus "Johnny vomited into the abdomen." There's no reason you can learn from the former. You don't need to latter to get the idea you shouldn't be vomiting into someone's open abdomen. Medicine is a brotherhood (I realize that sounds ridiculous.) You shouldn't throw people under the bus and use their name to make an example of what not to do. Embarrassment shouldn't be used as a motivator. Don't be that student, resident or attending who degrades people to make themselves feel holier than thou. Being that guy will bite you in the ass. And, like I said, it's not necessary for someone to be embarrassed to do better. Not to mention, that is a sure fire way to get someone to avoid a field as a career option. dingus attending or resident? Well gee, I should probably stay the hell away.

Edit: I didn't really say dingus, but that's what the filter replaced my expletive with.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm not lecturing anyone. I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that fear of being embarrassed can be a strong motivator. I'm not saying I know what it's like to be an MS3. But I don't need to be an MS3 to know what types of incentives people are motivated by. We can agree to disagree, but it doesn't seem like you're willing to accept than a lowly MS1 has a different opinion than you.

Like I said before, some schools allow the student to choose which attendings to give evalulation forms to. If a student knows an attending didn't like them, they can just opt to have the other attendings they worked with do their evals.

It'd be different if the PhD or MD said those comments to your face in public (although I would argue that is still worse than pulling you aside and telling you what you did wrong).

Talking **** about students behind their back is the most passive-aggressive bull**** I've ever sat through. I've seen it on OB/Gyn and Surgery (and I'm sure those people had something to say about me when I was out of the room, too).

There is no need for an Attending to use the name of a previous medical student in regards to what a crap job he/she did. Just say "A previous medical student" instead of the person's name.

All this being said, third year is a place where you have to pick your battles very wisely. If I were in OP's shoes (just hearing about student X who was a POS), I would keep my mouth shut.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not saying I know what it's like to be an MS3. But I don't need to be an MS3 to know what types of incentives people are motivated by. We can agree to disagree, but it doesn't seem like you're willing to accept than a lowly MS1 has a different opinion than you.

We're willing to accept that an MS-1 has a different opinion. It can be a wrong opinion, but it's a different opinion nonetheless. If you're motivated to your full potential by being criticized, castigated, and your flaws publicized, all the more power to you. I hope you use those same features when it comes to looking for selecting a residency and a specific program.

 

[tco]

I got along with my medicine team really well. One day, we received a call from the ED about an admission. My senior asked why the patient needed to be admitted. The resident (a PGY1) gave him a jerk response and followed it with, "Just come see the patient." Longer story short, I said a few things I knew about the resident that I shouldn't have to the rest of the medical team, explaining that he's just a jerk in general. The point is that everyone screws up and says something unprofessional. You need to always be thinking about what you're saying before you say it. (PS it was a bull**** admission)

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[colbgw02]

I got along with my medicine team really well. One day, we received a call from the ED about an admission. My senior asked why the patient needed to be admitted. The resident (a PGY1) gave him a jerk response and followed it with, "Just come see the patient." Longer story short, I said a few things I knew about the resident that I shouldn't have to the rest of the medical team, explaining that he's just a jerk in general. The point is that everyone screws up and says something unprofessional. You need to always be thinking about what you're saying before you say it. (PS it was a bullcrap admission)

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That doesn't sound very unprofessional. I mean, unless you were passing out the guy's SSN or advertising that he has supergonorrhea.

 

[tco]

That doesn't sound very unprofessional. I mean, unless you were passing out the guy's SSN or advertising that he has supergonorrhea.

Well, I continued on and explained a reason I thought he didn't match into his desired field (but still in the realm of him being a jerk). It involved a felony. I feel I should have not mentioned it.

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[DermViser]

That doesn't sound very unprofessional. I mean, unless you were passing out the guy's SSN or advertising that he has supergonorrhea.

"Unprofessional" in medical school speak means no one's feelings gets hurt. According to one study, blocking an admission is also considered "unprofessional" by the authors.

 

[DermViser]

Well, I continued on and explained a reason I thought he didn't match into his desired field (but still in the realm of him being a jerk). It involved a felony. I feel I should have not mentioned it.

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Ah, ok. That might be a tad "unprofessional", I guess.

 

[Kaustikos]

You think professional opinions about under performing colleagues should be kept private?

Yes, I do. Because some people hold a subjective grudge or don't tell the student what he's doing wrong. It's childish.

You can't be serious. I agree that it is very unlikely that a med student will do anything significant to help the patient, but it is not far-fetched to believe that an unprofessional student with poor medical knowledge can harm patients.

If you want your talents, knowledge, and skills to be valued and praised (as a med student), then it's only fair that you accept when your shortcomings are used as examples of what not to do.

Yes, they definitely can harm a patient. But that's not the point. The point is you should keep your opinions to yourself. Or, god forbid, at least tell the student you don't like what you don't like about them. If an attending were to do that; I'd think less of him/her. But the jokes on me for thinking that because no one cares what med students think.

Don't med schools do peer evaluations now for certain rotations?

Yes. Administration use those to wipe their asses when they're out of TP.

OK, when you get to your Ob/Gyn or surgery rotation in third year, and you find your preceptors not only yelling at you, but also talking about you behind your back to other students, we'll see how well you can take it. Trust me, the stuff your attendings and residents can do during clinical rotations will make those preclinical professors who "humiliated" you look like saints.

I'm not surprised. Looking at my class and how they "evaluate" each other, I wouldn't bat an eye if I learned this was common. There are so many passive-aggressive, insecure, naive people in medical school that just DON'T change. I think there's a correlation between frequency of bullying in K-12 and how much of a bully you are as a doctor. But I actually prefer yelling at me over behind my back. I'm used to it. Which is why I hate when people do this passive **** to me - why couldn't you say this to my face? Are you a coward? More like you're insecure in who you are that you don't want to be caught red handed throwing stones from your glass house.


edit - as an aside; I only hate it because I've had residents/interns bitch/bad mouth patients so much/so often in cases that were just unjustified. When we have a patient who's had to come back to the hospital 3 times to the same department in 4 weeks for the same symptoms, I think he has every ****ing right to complain about being in distress/pain.