Can an Externally Motivated Individual Succeed in Medicine? Looking for Personal Stories

[honestskyV]

The medical field seemingly attracts a certain type of person -- Type A, Extroverts, Leaders, Geniuses -- and I'm just looking to hear success stories from people who are on the other side of the personality spectrum. I'm particularly interested in hearing from people who are externally motivated, by which I mean people who may have difficulty setting and completing their own self-directed goals, but who easily accomplish things when needing to meet the expectations of others. People pleasers, so to speak.

For example, in my current field, I always meet or exceed my clients' expectations, but when it comes to setting my own deadline on a personal project, I seem to let it slide. In some way, because there's no external consequence.

What I'm wondering is a.) how this/my personality type would do in a post-bacc pre-med program, and b.) how this/my personality type would do in medical school, and c.) what tricks/tips/changes did you have to do/make in order to accomplish your goals, and d.) any general advice you'd give on being of this personality type?

And to be honest, I'm not really looking for opinions from people who aren't actually like this. I'm looking for lived experiences... been there, done that. If no one responds, well I'll take that as its own answer. Thanks everyone!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[CopperStripes]

I expect that, working and training in medicine, it will behoove you to focus on the health of your patients and your impact on the field of healthcare. During post-bacc & the first two years of med school, this probably means you’ll need to pay attention to case studies and clinical correlations, and be sure to take advantage of all opportunities your school has for encounters with real patients. These will hopefully motivate you to learn the material so that you can eventually use it to directly help patients.

In the final two years of medicine and beyond, I bet it would get easier for you. Except for rare non-clinical rotations or when you’re studying for something like a board exam, you’ll have patients you’re caring for and relationships with those patients. Patients always come with external consequences – whether it’s a disease they could die from or simply the potential of bad patient satisfaction metrics.

I totally think your personality type can be successful in medicine. You just need to keep focused on why you went into medicine in the first place, rather than just on the small hurdles along the way like passing an exam or impressing a preceptor so you can get a good letter of recommendation

 

[honestskyV]

You just need to keep focused on why you went into medicine in the first place

thanks so much for the response CopperStripes! i think even just lurking on the boards here for the past few weeks has made me a little out of focus. it's hard not to play the comparison game. keeping focused on the why i do what i do has proven to be a helpful internal motivator for my life in general thus far.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Your time is probably well-spent developing enough self-respect to internally motivate yourself. Invest in yourself, rather than other people's opinions. Being externally motivated may just boil down to being fearful of their judgement. What a maladaptive way to go through life.

 

[DrMidlife]

In the first two years of med school, the only feedback you get is exam scores. It's typical for a new med student to find out on their first exam that they're not in the top half of the class. Doing better may not be in the cards, no matter how smart you are or how hard you work.

So picture how you'll feel if you start being a C student, after being an A student as a premed, and how that works with your motivation thing.

And when everybody is super smart and high achieving, approval for those things becomes meaningless.

Then in third year, you start getting subjectively evaluated. If you're like me you won't care about lots of glowing comments if there's one "needs work". And exam scores continue to carry more weight than anything else.

Self -awareness is great as long as you have flexibility and endurance, for years, in an environment where you're being constantly evaluated against a high-achieving norm.

Best of luck to you.

 

[honestskyV]

Your time is probably well-spent developing enough self-respect to internally motivate yourself. Invest in yourself, rather than other people's opinions. Being externally motivated may just boil down to being fearful of their judgement. What a maladaptive way to go through life.

First -- i love your username, love it. Second -- i'm assuming you skipped over the last bit of my original post: "And to be honest, I'm not really looking for opinions from people who aren't actually like this. I'm looking for lived experiences... been there, done that. If no one responds, well I'll take that as its own answer."

What I gather from your response is that you're not like this, never have been, correct?

 

[honestskyV]

In the first two years of med school, the only feedback you get is exam scores. It's typical for a new med student to find out on their first exam that they're not in the top half of the class. Doing better may not be in the cards, no matter how smart you are or how hard you work. ... Best of luck to you.

Thanks for the response and well wishes. I'm wondering if you view yourself as an introvert and/or externally motivated person? I only ask because I'm looking for experiences from people similar to me, and would have a lot of follow up questions.

I also should have mentioned in my original post is that I'm not particularly cutthroat. I want to do the best I can do, but I'm okay not being the best in my school or of my class. Is this attitude antithetical to being in the medical field? The stereotypical image of a med student is being obsessed with being the best, at all costs. I grew up (blue collar, immigrant family) in an ivy league college town, where my friends were sons/daughters of esteemed professors, so I already have a lot of experience being around high-scoring, high-achieving smart people (honestly, I had a bit of a complex about it for a while). I'm hoping that when put into this situation again, I'm able to focus on what I need to do, what my goals are, not compare myself to others, and find a few professors/colleagues who will support me in this endeavor. And mostly, I'm wondering if what I'm hoping for is realistic.

 

[Mad Jack]

It always seems so strange to me how people mention that everyone is always comparing themselves to everyone else at the med school level. What's with the constant need for validation? I just don't get it.

As to your question, OP, if you aren't internally motivated, you are probably going to have a bad time. You can't put through the sacrifices required of medical school if you don't have some internal motivation and desire to do well for reasons beyond the expectations of others, not without losing your mind anyway. Unless you were crazy to begin with, in which case, carry on.

 

[petyr_baelish]

First -- i love your username, love it. Second -- i'm assuming you skipped over the last bit of my original post: "And to be honest, I'm not really looking for opinions from people who aren't actually like this. I'm looking for lived experiences... been there, done that. If no one responds, well I'll take that as its own answer."

What I gather from your response is that you're not like this, never have been, correct?

Occasionally posters on here will try to set parameters for their thread's responses but it's really not necessary. You can choose to listen or not listen to ideas that don't mesh with your own. But to answer your question, I was like that as a teenager/young adult. Showing up at school was very difficult, so I'd tell myself platitudes like "showing up is half the battle" or "force yourself to do one thing per day!" It got me through rough patches, but as a way of life, that would be exhausting. So what if I got an 'A' from that behaviour; the fact that I got burnt out very easily was a sign I wasn't meant for that route in life.

If you can constantly find external motivators that you truly care about, your plan should theoretically work. The problem is, what will you do when you need to perform on some metric and you don't have anything external to motivate you? Hopefully this is not a black and white thing and you can find internal motivation occasionally. In psychology we learn that extrinsic motivators are not sustainable unless they somehow lead to an intrinsic interest down the line. Maybe that's what you're trying to do.

It's also important to remember that while medical school seems rather structured around extrinsic motivators your work day may not be as structured in everyday practice.

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't get anything out of soft-psych self-help stuff. I've been through decades of corporate awareness-raising and such, as well as my own path, the paths of my friends, my co-workers, my classmates, my family. Knowing your "type" or Myers-Briggs, or whatever, is supposed to help you understand why you act the way you do and why you react to people of the other types the way you do. In my experience, if you stop there, it's an evasion of responsibility for your actions, and the lazy person's version of introspection and reflection. Doing an assessment and being satisfied with your score or "type" means you gave up way too early, imho. It's fine to have realizations and self-discovery experiences with pre-fab yes/no where-are-you-on-this-arbitrary-continuum-that-got-somebody-a-PhD assessments. It's fine to wear a description of yourself that comes from an external source, to see how it fits, and use it for self-improvement. But keeping that description as it's given to you is lazy. Imho.

Point being, I couldn't care less what "type" you are or what categorization you need me to fit into.

 

[Cawolf]

Myers-Briggs

Quick aside here if you don't mind - might apply. I have never been a corporate employee, but recently I was exchanging emails with a few management level employees at a business and noticed all of their email signatures had their "MBTI Type". Is this normal? What is the benefit of that?

And to the OP (regardless of what you want to hear), without any sort of intrinsic motivation you will burn out quickly in medicine.

 

[MrLogan13]

Working solely on external motivation will not get you very far in life. You need to dig deep and find your own motivation.

 

[DrMidlife]

Quick aside here if you don't mind - might apply. I have never been a corporate employee, but recently I was exchanging emails with a few management level employees at a business and noticed all of their email signatures had their "MBTI Type". Is this normal? What is the benefit of that?.

When an org pushes exec coaching and/or personality typing and/or another standardized behavior paradigm, the good intent is to provide a foundation and make it clear that the org endorses an environment where mgmt & employees:
1. comprehend that there are different kinds of people with different motivations and different ways of perceiving the world
2. accept that a habitual, or supposedly tried&true, communication style may be really really ineffective because of #1, among other things
3. care about effective communication and do actual work to get good at it

And folks come out of these coaching events, sometimes, with their minds blown. Which is great! May much subsequent learning, reflection and introspection lead to constantly broadened self-awareness and improved relationships!

And then sometimes folks are so enthusiastic about typing, and/or feel so fully understood for the first time when MB says "it's always been okay; you're just INTJ", and/or are under so much pressure to support the org, that they choose to communicate their results in their email sigs. Or their online dating or facebook or linkedin profiles.

At best this says "I want our communication to be successful". It says "I am enlightened enough to know my MB type". It says "I believe there are people out there who will change their perception of my communication based on my type, and who will modify how they communicate with me, for mutual benefit". It may say "I'm ESFP and if you're hip you'll know that means I work best with <whatever type>". In some cases there may be a hope that the reader will go find out what MB is and join the club. In the OP's case it might say "I recently learned things about myself that are so significant to me right now that I choose to act on those lessons with enthusiasm, perhaps to my detriment".

In my experience the typing is extremely helpful and sometimes life-changing for those on the autism spectrum, such as many very talented software engineers. Who would stick an icepick in their ear before they'd put INTJ in their email sig.

My lengthy $.02.

 

[RealMacaw]

I can answer part (a) since I am very similar, in that I respond better to external deadlines/direction than setting them myself, and I just completed a post-bacc with nearly straight A's. My undergrad GPA was far, far worse. In general, I think post-baccs are highly structured and so you should do well.

One thing that was really helpful was strict requirements for online homework every week in a lot of my classes. I had to work consistently --and got instant feedback--and didn't have the option of waiting until the last minute before tests. See if you can find out if this is the norm in the programs you are considering. Again, structure helps, so you might do better in a program with "typical" pre-med requirements where everyone does the same thing, than in one where you have more electives or independent projects.

Make it a point to go to advising sessions, info sessions, study groups, etc. even if you don't absolutely have to - seeing what your advisors are thinking or what your classmates are doing can spur you to keep up. It's kind of like an informal set of external prompts. As an introvert, this wasn't my natural tendency, but I forced myself to do it when I could, and it helped.

For me, it's not that I don't have internal motivation to be a doctor or to learn about human biology or to get good grades - I definitely do. But when I'm faced with a big, complex task (like "get in to med school") I feel overwhelmed and have trouble breaking it down into manageable steps. It's hugely helpful when there is some structure in place that does that for me. Is that also the case for you? In that case, maybe it's not as much about motivation as it is about setting a specific plan of action and following through?

Either way, I'd love to hear from others about how this tendency plays out later in med school / residency, since I'll be facing the same issues as OP.

 

[Law2Doc]

First, only seeking answers from people with personalities like yourself is *****ic on so many levels, and dooms you to failure. Few people will really be like you even if what you've written resonates with them. And if your issue is actually a big failing or character flaw, you do yourself a huge disservice surrounding yourself with those opinions from people suffering from the same predicament. These are exactly the people you shouldn't take advice from, these are people you should run screaming away from in favor of people with differing perspectives.

Second, as mentioned above, you don't get to set the parameters of who can respond on this kind of a discussion board. You get to ask whatever you want but don't get to control how the community chooses to respond. and probably shouldn't because as mentioned above if you try to insulate yourself from people with good advice in favor of advice from people as clueless as yourself, you are forever doomed.

Third, I don't totally get your external motivator concept here, but it sounds like a bad fit for this career, and a better fit for corporate middle management. If medicine isn't something you really want or are excited about, or if your validation needs to come from elsewhere, then this career will be just a prison where they make you work really hard, give up sleep, weekends, social life, limit the family and friend events you can go to etc. It's a great career for people who are excited to do what doctors actually do, but and a pretty lousy one for everyone else. I always say it's really not for everyone, and too hard for those just seeking to dabble. Go shadow a bit and see if you actually like it.

 

[honestskyV]

Occasionally posters on here will try to set parameters for their thread's responses but it's really not necessary. You can choose to listen or not listen to ideas that don't mesh with your own.

ah, good point, I realize my mistake in that.

If you can constantly find external motivators that you truly care about, your plan should theoretically work. The problem is, what will you do when you need to perform on some metric and you don't have anything external to motivate you? Hopefully this is not a black and white thing and you can find internal motivation occasionally. In psychology we learn that extrinsic motivators are not sustainable unless they somehow lead to an intrinsic interest down the line. Maybe that's what you're trying to do.

It's also important to remember that while medical school seems rather structured around extrinsic motivators your work day may not be as structured in everyday practice.

This was helpful. It's not that I don't have an internal desire/motivation to enter the medical field, I very much do (obviously, I would't be perusing on these board and applying to post-bacc school), I just find when it comes to action, to everyday practice, I know I have trouble doing if there are some external motivations/pressures to fulfill. I'm wondering how much of a challenge that'll be or if it's possible to overcome as long as I'm conscious and pro-active about it.

 

[honestskyV]

I can answer part (a) since I am very similar, in that I respond better to external deadlines/direction than setting them myself, and I just completed a post-bacc with nearly straight A's. My undergrad GPA was far, far worse. In general, I think post-baccs are highly structured and so you should do well.

One thing that was really helpful was strict requirements for online homework every week in a lot of my classes. I had to work consistently --and got instant feedback--and didn't have the option of waiting until the last minute before tests. See if you can find out if this is the norm in the programs you are considering. Again, structure helps, so you might do better in a program with "typical" pre-med requirements where everyone does the same thing, than in one where you have more electives or independent projects.

Make it a point to go to advising sessions, info sessions, study groups, etc. even if you don't absolutely have to - seeing what your advisors are thinking or what your classmates are doing can spur you to keep up. It's kind of like an informal set of external prompts. As an introvert, this wasn't my natural tendency, but I forced myself to do it when I could, and it helped.

For me, it's not that I don't have internal motivation to be a doctor or to learn about human biology or to get good grades - I definitely do. But when I'm faced with a big, complex task (like "get in to med school") I feel overwhelmed and have trouble breaking it down into manageable steps. It's hugely helpful when there is some structure in place that does that for me. Is that also the case for you? In that case, maybe it's not as much about motivation as it is about setting a specific plan of action and following through?

Either way, I'd love to hear from others about how this tendency plays out later in med school / residency, since I'll be facing the same issues as OP.

RealMacaw -- I'm so glad to hear from you! Sort of seems like everyone else is beating up on me. I should have been much clearer -- fact: I have a great internal desire to go in to medicine, this is a choice that i want to make. but like you, I need external prompts to keep me on course. I was fairly sure I should do a specific post-bacc pre-med program (rather than trying to take the pre-reqs at a comm college), that way there's a certain required regulation. I'm also hoping that given that I'm fairly older (30), my study/learning behaviors will be much improved from my undergrad years.

But anyway, thanks for the feedback! I might message you directly, I'd be interested to know what post-bac did, etc.

 

[honestskyV]

First, only seeking answers from people with personalities like yourself is *****ic on so many levels, and dooms you to failure. Few people will really be like you even if what you've written resonates with them. And if your issue is actually a big failing or character flaw, you do yourself a huge disservice surrounding yourself with those opinions from people suffering from the same predicament. These are exactly the people you shouldn't take advice from, these are people you should run screaming away from in favor of people with differing perspectives.

Second, as mentioned above, you don't get to set the parameters of who can respond on this kind of a discussion board. You get to ask whatever you want but don't get to control how the community chooses to respond. and probably shouldn't because as mentioned above if you try to insulate yourself from people with good advice in favor of advice from people as clueless as yourself, you are forever doomed.

Third, I don't totally get your external motivator concept here, but it sounds like a bad fit for this career, and a better fit for corporate middle management. If medicine isn't something you really want or are excited about, or if your validation needs to come from elsewhere, then this career will be just a prison where they make you work really hard, give up sleep, weekends, social life, limit the family and friend events you can go to etc. It's a great career for people who are excited to do what doctors actually do, but and a pretty lousy one for everyone else. I always say it's really not for everyone, and too hard for those just seeking to dabble. Go shadow a bit and see if you actually like it.

Oh, I don't actually view my personality as a "big failing or character flaw". I view myself as behaving one way, and was just curious if other people who behave similar to me have had success in the medical field. I'm trying to bring out this dialogue specifically because it's not a common one--now is it not common because there's a myth surrounding who can do medicine, or is it not common because truly only a certain type of person can do medicine. I'm just trying to parse that out. For that reason, I added the line about looking for specific responses -- mostly so people like you who support the status quo won't waste your time responding to my question -- I'm aware of the status quo. Anyway... I do appreciate your last line, "Go shadow a bit and see if you actually like it," it probably is better to glean personalities from practicing physicians than asking at random online.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Oh, I don't actually view my personality as a "big failing or character flaw". I view myself as behaving one way, and was just curious if other people who behave similar to me have had success in the medical field. I'm trying to bring out this dialogue specifically because it's not a common one--now is it not common because there's a myth surrounding who can do medicine, or is it not common because truly only a certain type of person can do medicine. I'm just trying to parse that out. For that reason, I added the line about looking for specific responses -- mostly so people like you who support the status quo won't waste your time responding to my question -- I'm aware of the status quo. Anyway... I do appreciate your last line, "Go shadow a bit and see if you actually like it," it probably is better to glean personalities from practicing physicians than asking at random online.

Or it's not a common discussion because there is such a wide range of personalities in medicine that reductive, either-or, statements such as that one make no sense.

I also don't know where you get the idea that there is a "myth surrounding who can do medicine." Maybe there is a "myth" in your particular social circle that you are trying to inquire about, but I for one have never encountered any such myths. Usually the people who would perpetuate those kinds of generalizations are not in the field, and you shouldn't listen to them.

Overall, I think your approach to whatever doubts you have about whether you can do medicine and your insistence that people only respond if they are similar to you is counterproductive.

The only reason I'm continuing to reply here is because I think you probably could get help for whatever is bothering you, but nobody can help when you are framing the question (that is based on flawed presumptions) in such a restrictive way.

 

[RealMacaw]

HonestSky, I'm glad my post was helpful! Feel free to message me, I'd be happy to talk about my post-bacc program & experiences in general. I'm in my late 30s so I can share what life is like as an "oldie."

One thing about SDN in general, based on several months of reading: you are going to find a whole lot of dinguses on here. If they displayed these attitudes in their interviews, most of them would never have gotten in. Every single advisor or mentor I spoke to who mentioned SDN said to be careful and take it with a huge grain of salt, or just avoid it altogether. I'm guessing this site is where a lot of people who are angry about their lives come to take a crap on someone else, safely behind the anonymity of their avatar. So take advantage of the information you find here, but don't let the attitudes of some get you down.

I also come from an immigrant family and grew up around people who were a lot more educated and privileged than me. I went to an elite high school, and even though I had no problems keeping up intellectually, I felt so far behind my classmates in terms of success, money, and general cultural exposure that I had a bit of a complex too for a long time. Feeling like you are lower in social status can also make you a little more passive than you would otherwise be. This is normal and you don't need to beat yourself up about it, but do find ways to bolster your confidence and leadership ability.

Just keep this in mind: if you did not have the advantages others had, yet you accomplish the same things, that reveals how strong you are. Be proud of what you have done and what you bring to the table! No, you absolutely don't have to be a "gunner" to succeed in medicine. You DO have to be willing to work insanely hard, sacrifice a lot of things in your personal life, and be smart enough to absorb vast amounts of complex information. None of that requires being cutthroat. In fact, I think medicine needs more people in it who are not insanely competitive. If you can think of a way your experiences are going to make you a better, more compassionate, more aware doctor, you can frame that to your advantage when you apply. Combine that with solid post-bacc grades and MCATs, and you will be in good shape.

 

[Shjanzey]

The greatest external motivation I have is my wife. I am in a difficult situation where she is in residency in another state and I am in my first year of medical school. Nothing motivates me more than the knowledge that I have to excel and do well so I can transfer at the end of 2nd year. Another motivating factor is my previous corporate career. Every time I think about having to go back to that if I fail, I feel a sudden surge of motivation.

Whether or not you would consider those internal or external, it is all centered around where you really want to be. If you have a half-assed idea of going into medicine then you aren't going to make it. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to stay afloat. You are surrounded by brilliant, successful people who can make you feel inadequate at times. You also have the vast amount of information that initially doesn't make sense but you still have to power through it. Without some measure of personal character that is not an environment a wishy-washy person can survive in.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for. Medical School is a means to an end, and not the end itself. I see myself as a doctor, not as student which is why I am willing to put myself through hell to make it a reality. Good luck