can medical school acceptance be rescinded if i spill the beans on my professor?

[anteater1010]

i had a really crappy PI. who claimed he was a GREAT mentor but in reality knows NOTHING about mentoring. who was kinda abusive. i was thinking about reporting him but i am scared about losing my medical school acceptance. (sorry i had to delete the original post for confidentiality purposes).

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[nick_carraway]

Wow. I don't think letter writers can rescind a letter after they send it in to the filing service. How would they know which schools to contact, anyway?

I think you should spill everything. She certainly doesn't sound like any professor that I've ever met and I don't think she deserves to be one.

I wouldn't trust the admin, either. I complained about a professor's grading fairness once and I was promised complete confidentiality. My professor still found out that it was me though. Could've been from what the admin said to her + other info but she was sure it was me. So anyway, I suggest you call your med school first and verify that you won't be punished in case your professor does find out and gets vindictive.

 

[anteater1010]

Wow. I don't think letter writers can rescind a letter after they send it in to the filing service. How would they know which schools to contact, anyway

well, the problem is i still keep in touch with a few friends from the lab, and i made the mistake of telling them about my acceptance. i am worried that they might tell the professor accidentally. or, more randomly, that the professor may see my profile on one of these social networking sites and be able to learn where i was accepted that way. i only put the information up for a bit before realizing that probably wasn't a good idea, and then took it back down--but there is a good chance the professor saw it before i took it down.

i am especially creeped out because one of the people who works for the professor, who i haven't talked to in over a year, randomly out of the blue emailed me the day after i got my acceptance to ask me what was new in my life. this person is one of the two people (other than the postdoc) that the professor always seemed to talk nicely with. that person, i am guessing, saw the information i temporarily posted when i joined the social networking site the day after my acceptance. i didn't write back anything about my acceptance, and i am probably being overly paranoid, but it creeped me out.

okay am i seriously psycho? i hate that it has to be like this, and that i have to watch my back about sharing my joy.

 

[ryandote]

He sounds like a tool. Blow the whistle. Seriously, though, three things:

I disagree on the confidentiality issue. Something with these kind of serious ramifications would be kept under wraps, and the prof will never know who squealed.

I am reasonably certain that letters can't be rescinded. What is the writer going to do? Call and say "I lied in that letter, go ahead an toss it?"

Finally, be honest about everything to everyone. Tell the administrator that you feel like you owe the prof, but be honest about the environment. Call your school and tell them about the situation. Maybe, just maybe, talk to the prof about the situation, seeing as you are done with him anyway.

A genuine good luck.

 

[nick_carraway]

Dude that sucks. I still suggest calling your med school and finding out what their policy is and maybe e-mail a member of the Dean's office so that it's easier for them to understand the situation once it's in writing. Once you do that, I'd give the admins what they want to know about your professor.

With lawsuits, schools usually stand with their faculty and defend them. If there's an internal investigation though, that means the admins are concerned with what they've been hearing too and the punishment will probably be much harsher.

 

[catsrule]

Tell the Dean you will give a full report of your experience the day you start Med School. Also do you know any lawyers? You could write a letter in a lawyer's office explaining everything including your fears of negitive recourse and have it notorized. The high road is never easy.In Medicine you may witness wrong doings, evil prevails when good men do nothing.

 

[smq123]

i am really torn up about this issue--any insights would be most appreciated.

i desperately want to talk, so that other people do not have to go through what i and the other lab techs went through. i have no motivations for myself--at this point, talking can't really help me--it can only help those who work in that lab after me. but, i am worried that if i talk, and it somehow gets back to him, he will withdraw the recc letter that he wrote me, and i will lose my acceptance to my medical school. the dean has assured me complete confidentiality, and assured me that if the professor takes any retaliatory action the dean's office will personally call my medical school to explain. but i am so scarred by the experience that i don't really trust anyone now. i also figure what good will calling a medical school to explain do--after all, i will end up with a reputation as the kind of person who spills the beans on wrongdoing at their school, and what medical school wants to invite potential liability like that?

Wow. This guy sounds truly terrible. I'm really sorry for you that he put you in this position.

You shouldn't do anything that you really don't feel comfortable doing, especially if it's giving you nightmares. But, here are some things to think about:
1) The letter that this guy wrote for you is probably not the only letter of recommendation that you sent to schools. The other ones that you sent probably said nice things about you, and you probably came across as a desirable applicant to your interviewer. So this guy's letter definitely didn't make or break your acceptance, and, overall, probably didn't have that much weight.

2) If he were to rescind his letter, the medical school would have to notify you. Rescinding a letter is very unusual, so they would probably have to discuss this with you before deciding to withdraw your acceptance offer. They would almost certainly offer you a chance to explain the situation to the admissions committee, and would probably let you find a subsitute letter writer to put in your file instead. If, in the (highly unlikely) event that they did not allow you to explain, and just withdrew your acceptance without warning you, you could certainly petition the admissions committee and the dean of students at that school. (You'd probably be successful.)

3) Don't worry about being labelled as a "whistle-blower." There's a growing trend in med schools now - they worry that med students are not willing ENOUGH to be whistle-blowers. The fear is that med students are so afraid of pissing off their resident (and getting a bad grade) that they'll refuse to speak up, even if they see the resident making a careless mistake that kills a patient. Medical schools had a bad reputation of abusing its students, but most schools are now making strong efforts at giving students a voice. Mine certainly is.

I hope things work out well! Good luck.

 

[smq123]

any ideas? thank you

Oh, I should add - if you truly want the insider's view on this issue, ask LizzyM what she thinks. (Maybe she'll even be able to comment on this thread?? Hopefully!) I know that she has extensive admissions experience, and could give you a definitive answer.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am reasonably certain that letters can't be rescinded. What is the writer going to do? Call and say "I lied in that letter, go ahead an toss it?"

I'm pretty sure this actually happens from time to time. Not the "I lied" part but that "circumstances have changed and I no longer can recommend the applicant". The OP needs to be prepared to explain things at an interview if asked.

OP should be willing to answer the dean's questions but should lose that motivation to "not have other people go through what I went through". No point making yourself a martyr for someone else's cause. Be honest, but limit your responses to specific questions asked by the dean, don't see it as your goal to take down the prof. The time for whistleblowing ended when you quit -- now it just comes off like sour grapes from a disgruntled ex-employee.

 

[Law2Doc]

3) Don't worry about being labelled as a "whistle-blower." There's a growing trend in med schools now - they worry that med students are not willing ENOUGH to be whistle-blowers. The fear is that med students are so afraid of pissing off their resident (and getting a bad grade) that they'll refuse to speak up, even if they see the resident making a careless mistake that kills a patient. Medical schools had a bad reputation of abusing its students, but most schools are now making strong efforts at giving students a voice. Mine certainly is.

The time for whistleblowing is while you are still in the situation. OP has already quit, having gotten a good recommendation besides.

 

[Gut Shot]

any ideas? thank you

Yeah, get on with your life.

 

[tkatchev]

Jebus, I started reading the OP's essay but it just kept going and going. Sadly my attention span suffered in the process and I didn't make it

 

[dln72183]

you should write a letter to the department head or dean and explain the importance of confidentiality regarding the issue. They did seem to reasure you that would be the case. We had a professor to some pretty bad things and many students wrote letters, but as far as I'm concerned, they were completely confidential. You wouldn't want this to happen to more students would you?

 

[The Doctor]

Dear OP, I'm so sorry for the pain you have experienced. Remember, you don't have to do anything that you don't want to do in terms of the administration's requests. However, if you do feel strongly about making sure that other people don't go through what you went through, then don't worry about protecting the professor. Oftentimes, in abusive relationships, the person being abused can understandably develop an attachment of sorts to the abuser. You've spent a long time trying to please this professor and gain his favor, all while trying to avoid his temper. But I have good news - you never have to deal with this man in your life again (nor would you want to). You are free from him, and you can do as you wish. I would contact the medical school or would have your dean contact them pre-emptively to let them know what is happening if things get nasty, but in my lay opinion, I couldn't see an acceptance being withdrawn.

Good luck.

 

[spursss]

I would not trust what the dean told you. I am sure that prof has the means to figure out who said bad stuff about him. Just go on with your life and forget about it. Yeah it sucks, but you dont know what that could end up doing to hurt you down the road.

 

[crazydiamond]

I would agree to speak with the Dean and answer any of his questions. Present your story as a series of facts, not a dramatic story filled with emotion.

I would not assume confidentiality. In my academic and professional career, I've been burned more times than I can count by people who've claimed confidentiality. But at the same time, I wouldn't let a lack of confidentiality prevent me from speaking with the Dean.

Prepare to speak about this situation to your med school, if asked. Simply state the facts and put a positive spin on it, if possible. "So and so had serious allegations brought forth after I left employment there and I was asked to testify to the Dean about what I witnessed. Unfortunately, so and so feels he can no longer recommend me for medical school after this confidential situation was made public."

Chances are the medical school won't rescind your acceptance. I could see it causing a problem if they were still deciding to accept you (in which case I'd tell you to submit another letter of rec), but after the fact I don't think there's a whole lot of risk.

 

[EBI831]

Wow. I don't think letter writers can rescind a letter after they send it in to the filing service. How would they know which schools to contact, anyway?

I think you should spill everything. She certainly doesn't sound like any professor that I've ever met and I don't think she deserves to be one.

I wouldn't trust the admin, either. I complained about a professor's grading fairness once and I was promised complete confidentiality. My professor still found out that it was me though. Could've been from what the admin said to her + other info but she was sure it was me. So anyway, I suggest you call your med school first and verify that you won't be punished in case your professor does find out and gets vindictive.

correct me if i'm wrong. but i find it bizarre that you jump to the conclusion that said professor is a she. i went back to see what gave you the idea and all i got from the OP was a few references to a "him". done with my women's studies rant for the day.
OP, this sounds horrid. i had a horrid lab experience too and got no papers out of it and got blamed for everything and forced to present horsecrap(figurative) in front a large panel using contaminated data and then lied to about downsizing only to return to work for another lab and have my former PI look down at the ground and run away anytime i was around. luckily for you, you already got a rec and it was a good one. some of the places i applied to made me get a rec from him b/c it was proof of research and he wrote me the crappiest paragraph long rec about how i made him laughand in an entire summer i mastered cell culture (something that was achieved in the first week) and that i would be funny to have around. moral of the story, these powertripping PIs are shiznit and if i had the opportunity, i'd drag his sorry butt down for ruining my summer twice in a row and ruining my chance at my dream internships at NASA/ Cold Spring Harbor and chances at a few of the med schools i really liked who required research letters.

 

[nick_carraway]

i find it bizarre that you jump to the conclusion that said professor is a she. i went back to see what gave you the idea and all i got from the OP was a few references to a "him". done with my women's studies rant for the day.

Sorry. It was late at night and I was skimming so the last pronoun that stuck in my mind was "she"--who was the lab tech, apparently. Sincerest of apologies to the terrible professor whom I may have offended.

But no. You're right. In my attempt to encourage the OP, I wanted to make it clear that I hate all women and I wanted to frame the OP's professor as a woman to aid me in that objective. A black woman, no less. Who speaks Arabic, I'm sure. Who lives in the South. And drives a Hummer. That runs on dead babies.

Get off your high horse, for God's sake.

 

[EBI831]

Sorry. It was late at night and I was skimming so the last pronoun that stuck in my mind was "she"--who was the lab tech, apparently. Sincerest of apologies to the terrible professor whom I may have offended.

But no. You're right. In my attempt to encourage the OP, I wanted to make it clear that I hate all women and I wanted to frame the OP's professor as a woman to aid me in that objective. A black woman, no less. Who speaks Arabic, I'm sure. Who lives in the South. And drives a Hummer. That runs on dead babies.

Get off your high horse, for God's sake.

i would have laughed at your post and decided that you were an alright person had you not included the last line. it made the preceding paragraph seem angry and thus undermined your entire argument about me being on a high horse and you being the victim of it. i simply said that it's funny how you assumed it was a female, i did not criticize you or anything, i just said i went back to read it b/c as i didn't recall any pronouns i had to go and see if it was a she and it wasn't. then, i said thus concludes my women's studies rant ie i was done but apparently you still want to provoke me. that is all. you took my words to be accusatory and in this instance, even if it was not your intention, i read your answer as a challenge and, as a result, it seemed written to condemn my behavior and just as you took the opportunity to clarify your intentions/defend yourself this is my turn to justify myself.

 

[nick_carraway]

i would have laughed at your post and decided that you were an alright person had you not included the last line. it made the preceding paragraph seem angry and thus undermined your entire argument about me being on a high horse and you being the victim of it. i simply said that it's funny how you assumed it was a female, i did not criticize you or anything, i just said i went back to read it b/c as i didn't recall any pronouns i had to go and see if it was a she and it wasn't. then, i said thus concludes my women's studies rant ie i was done but apparently you still want to provoke me. that is all. you took my words to be accusatory and in this instance, even if it was not your intention, i read your answer as a challenge and, as a result, it seemed written to condemn my behavior and just as you took the opportunity to clarify your intentions/defend yourself this is my turn to justify myself.

Sorry. I apologize and I hope that one day, you'll think of me as an alright person again.

 

[Shpamme]

im editing my post. actually, after thinking about it maybe you SHOULD reply. it seems the ethical thing to do. but i'd wait until after you are sitting in a chair in a medical school class, and you can convey the situation to your school's admissions dean in person. too many misunderstandings occur over the phone or via email.

 

[anteater1010]

wow you guys, thank you so much for the responses. i feel a lot better just having talked about it. supportive sdn to the rescue once again.. i really have to make good on my promise to donate after i got accepted. i will do that tomorrow, once i've reconciled my bank account. ecking and EBI831, you're BOTH alright. the only person i think is NOT alright is law2doc. granted i'm a new poster but most of the posts i've read from him tend to be discouraging. he gives such sound advice, but without much tact or thought to what it might do to someone's emotions. there's a way to give tough love without being..rude?

i mean..

now it just comes off like sour grapes from a disgruntled ex-employee.

Law2Doc, do I really come across as a disgruntled ex-employee? if so, why would i have waited a year to even contemplate reporting it? if i had to restate what you said in a tactful way, i'd say: "please understand, though, they may not give as much credence to your statement given the amount of time that's passed."


anyways..to those who said talk to the dean.. yea.. i mean, i guess in my heart i know it's the right thing to do to speak up.

what scares me is that this professor is known to be vindictive--he was very vindictive against the people who did not stick with him during the first lawsuit. the dean's office is putting serious pressure on me.. i get voicemails from the dean's office and the ombudsperson fairly often, and one of the (nonfavored) postdocs who stuck up for me a good amount when all this was going on, at his own expense, is also pressing me to speak up. that postdoc though doesn't have anything riding on this--he left and didn't require a recc letter from the professor to move on to his next position. he is just speaking up because he has a good heart and wants to help other people. someone kindly pm'ed me and said i could always sue for libel and slander if i got retaliated against. problem is, i'd rather be in medical school, than have lots of money in damages but no medical school acceptance.

god i am so scared of losing everything i've worked for. its amazing how much somoene who has been out of your life for over a year, can still have so much control over you.

let this be a lesson.. investigate pi's thoroughly before you join their labs. ask around, talk to people who have worked there. do NOT join blindly and do NOT be a chump.. if you feel weird after a good faith effort to stick it out, get out quickly. better to do that than to get nightmares. =)

 

[nick_carraway]

Yeah I never even knew that PIs like him exist out there. I guess if EBI had one too, though, there's gotta be a lot of them. I mean if research is so collaborative, it's amazing that there are such crazy people.

Anyway, let us know what you finally decide! It certainly sounds like the Dean's on your side of all of this, though. Why else would he be pushing so hard? But take care of yourself first and find out what your med school's going to think of this. At the very least, I agree with smq123 to PM LizzyM or PM some mentors in the mentor forum.

 

[tae1703]

i wouldve cought him off guard one evening on the way to his car and kicked his ass in the parking lot (bad), then robbed him, then stole his car and took it to the chop shop for a healthy sum, and other things. all this with a mask on of course and come to work the next day with a smile. would probably rob his house one day also.

 

[LizzyM]

god i am so scared of losing everything i've worked for. its amazing how much somoene who has been out of your life for over a year, can still have so much control over you.

let this be a lesson.. investigate pi's thoroughly before you join their labs. ask around, talk to people who have worked there. do NOT join blindly and do NOT be a chump.. if you feel weird after a good faith effort to stick it out, get out quickly. better to do that than to get nightmares. =)

I take it that you've been admitted to med school and will start sometime in the next 3 months. I am not inside the dean's office but I would find it absolutely unthinkable that someone would ring up the dean and say anything that would cause the medical school to recind an offer of admission. I think that it would be seen as what it is... revenge against a whistleblower. If you feel some loyalty to the institution and to fellow workers, then tell the Dean of your experiences -- just the facts, just your personal experiences. The Dean may be trying to make a case against this PI on sexual harassment charges, scientific misconduct, or other charges which may be baseless. What you've seen may not be flattering but it may also serve to get him off the hook.... you don't know, so the best you can do in the service of truth, is to tell the Dean of your experience.

 

[8744]

The OP needs to let it go. Let sleeping dogs lie and etc.

Also view this as a lesson in life as to what happens to people who are too weak or afraid to stand up for themselves and get rolled...which is what you are going to experience as a resident if you don't learn the lesson.

I'm not even quite sure what beans you could spill. That your boss was a petty tyrant? That you lacked the gonadal fortitude to tell him to pick up his own goddamned laundry? That he claimed credit for work on projects for which he secured the grants?

Stop the presses.

Look, matriculate and then in a six months go ahead and have at it if you're worried about losing your acceptance. They will not kick you out at that point and you can score whatever points you think you can in a dispute that nobody but you probably cares about.

 

[spanamit]

Xxx

 

[8744]

Oh, and OP, don't place too much trust in your dean or any functionary of the bureaucracy. He doesn't care about you in the slightest and will throw you to the wolves merrily at even an inkling that you are a trouble-maker.

Learn it, live it, love it.

 

[nick_carraway]

Panda, in the OP's defense, I don't think he's the only person worrying about this dispute. He wasn't even the one who initiated the investigation and apparently the Dean is more concerned about this professor than he is since he's already been out of there for a year and the Dean's the one contacting him.

 

[tcamdg]

Yeah, get on with your life.

I concur.

 

[TheGreatHunt]

Hah, don't listen to these guys telling you to go all Willy Nilly on your feelings.

1) Call your school and confirm whether or not this will affect your admission

If rule 1) comes back in the clear, do what you want.

Rule #1 is all that matters, regardless of how you feel. If you feel the necessity to help your lab co-workers, you can still do so after you've gotten into the Medical School, once the year has started.

 

[tcamdg]

The four whistle blowing criteria:

1) Need: Satisfied since the prof. has proven to be a tool.
2) Proximity: Firsthand experience for you.
3) Capability: You have the Dean's ears.
4) Last Resort: probably, since the professor didn't get the message when the other's resigned.

Conclusion: blow the whistle. And no, this should probably have no effect on your admissions.

The prof being a tool doesn't satisfy "need" for whistle-blower protection. And whistle-blower protection doesn't apply here. Unless the OP can produce evidence of misconduct (being a tool is probably not misconduct), the OP is probably better off just moving on with his or her life.

 

[anteater1010]

Again, a HUGE thank you to everyone. You guys are unbelievable and I really appreciate the responses (including the ones that seemed a little harsh at first glance--I know they were meant well). A huge thank you too to LizzyM..

hehe, tae1703, your approach sounds like that carrie underwood song!

I'm going to sleep on it tonight I think. I was thinking maybe I'd email the admissions office anonymously and ask them what their thoughts on this are. What do you think? Then if their email seems supportive, I would go ahead and talk to the dean, and hope it never becomes an issue with my med school. If it does, I would disclose myself as the writer of the anonymous email. What do you think?

Also view this as a lesson in life as to what happens to people who are too weak or afraid to stand up for themselves and get rolled...which is what you are going to experience as a resident if you don't learn the lesson.

This part I wholeheartedly agree with.. I really need to get a backbone. Not a mean spirited one where I disagree with criticism, but one where I stand up for myself. So.. in that vein.. =)

I'm not even quite sure what beans you could spill. That your boss was a petty tyrant? That you lacked the gonadal fortitude to tell him to pick up his own goddamned laundry? That he claimed credit for work on projects for which he secured the grants?

I think "spill the beans" was a unfortunate choice of words on my part. I'm not trying to "rat him out" about specific incidents in any way.. rather, I just want to answer the Dean's questions about the workplace environment. I really liked the way LizzyM put it--I just want to act ethically, in the interest of truth. I really liked the institution I was at, and I feel like it's a shame there are professors like this who might be driving students away. The environment was definitely hostile and abusive in some ways, and that's what I'd want to talk about. From all these posts, I'm beginning to think the The Great Hunt's approach might be the best one--investigate if my accepted school will take action against me (perhaps via the anonymous email I mentioned above), and if it won't be an issue, go ahead and speak with the dean. If it will be an issue, then I'm going to have to retrench and figure things out again. I would opt to stay quiet in that case but for some reason, staying quiet is ethically ringing hollow to me, because I have the chance to potentially improve other workers' lives and careers yet I would stand back and not do something.

The other bizarre thing is that everyone keeps saying I should move on with my life.. and I agree.. but I stopped and wondered today if I CAN move on with my life if I don't speak up. This professor was a HUGE part of my life for nearly four years, and I clearly seem to get bugged about this whenever I think about it.. I wonder if speaking up wouldn't give me some closure, because I'd feel like I finally stood up for myself. Of course, it could always make it worse too and prevent me from moving on with my life if he gets vindictive..so who knows.. Just thinking aloud here.

(As an aside, I guess I disagree that just because the professor gets the grant, that they are entitled to the only credit on papers. I think credit has to be given where credit is due. If Panda's view was the prevailing view, I'd figure you wouldn't see many papers with more than one author (e.g. most papers would only have the grantee's name on it).

Look, matriculate and then in a six months go ahead and have at it if you're worried about losing your acceptance. They will not kick you out at that point and you can score whatever points you think you can in a dispute that nobody but you probably cares about.

Yeah, I thought about this too. Problem is the investigation has apparenlty been ongoing for some time (hence the repeated voicemails from the dean's office), and they are wrapping it up now. I think if I am going to talk, now is the time, when they are armed with the statements of several other people. Now is when my statement would have the most effect in convincing the dean to take a closer look at his behavior. Later, if I speak it might not have any effect, because the dean will (presumably) already have taken action and won't feel the need to take any more.

I don't think I'm the only one who cares about this. I didn't instigate the investigation, and until I started getting calls from the Dean I was content to let this go. It was only when the other people spoke up, that the Dean started calling me. So I think those other people and the Dean are perhaps even more concerned and care more about this dispute than I do.

 

[Law2Doc]

The four whistle blowing criteria:

1) Need: Satisfied since the prof. has proven to be a tool.
2) Proximity: Firsthand experience for you.
3) Capability: You have the Dean's ears.
4) Last Resort: probably, since the professor didn't get the message when the other's resigned.

Conclusion: blow the whistle. And no, this should probably have no effect on your admissions.

I don't know where these criteria came from but disagree with your analysis of #1 and #4. Should be 1) Need -- is none since you are no longer in his employ. ... 4) Last Resort -- is moot -- you don't need to whistleblow to get yourself out of a bad situation -- you already left (and apparently on good terms if you got a LOR).

Whistleblowing policies are meant to protect folks who are still in unfair and untenable situations, who can't speak up for themselves without fear of retribution from an employer/coworker. Once you leave it ceases to be whistleblowing, and most would argue the need to do anything becomes remote. The fact that you want to do this to protect other people in the future and not yourself really takes you out of the whistleblowing criteria altogether. As others have suggested, it's time to move on with your life. As Panda suggested, you will come across more than your share of "petty tyrants" in medicine, so chalk this up as a learning experience and stop looking backwards.

 

[postbacker]

OP - you have too high an opinion of the value of your "testimony" at this late stage of the investigation. You have managed to this point to stay out of it, and looking out for #1, you should continue to stay out of it...

But consider if this vindictive SOB assumes you are behind the investigation and throws a monkey wrench into your med school acceptance and you have not availed yourself of the protection of the Dean...hmmm...a classic case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" if ever I saw one...

Next time, grow a pair.

 

[8744]

I think "spill the beans" was a unfortunate choice of words on my part. I'm not trying to "rat him out" about specific incidents in any way.. rather, I just want to answer the Dean's questions about the workplace environment. I really likI just want to act ethically, in the interest of truth. I really liked the institution I was at, and I feel like it's a shame there are professors like this who might be driving students away. The environment was definitely hostile and abusive in some ways, and that'sed the way LizzyM put it-- what I'd want to talk about. From all these posts, I'm beginning to think the The Great Hunt's approach might be the best one--investigate if my accepted school will take action against me (perhaps via the anonymous email I mentioned above), and if it won't be an issue, go ahead and speak with the dean. If it will be an issue, then I'm going to have to retrench and figure things out again. I would opt to stay quiet in that case but for some reason, staying quiet is ethically ringing hollow to me, because I have the chance to potentially improve other workers' lives and careers yet I would stand back and not do something.

The other bizarre thing is that everyone keeps saying I should move on with my life.. and I agree.. but I stopped and wondered today if I CAN move on with my life if I don't speak up. This professor was a HUGE part of my life for nearly four years, and I clearly seem to get bugged about this whenever I think about it.. I wonder if speaking up wouldn't give me some closure, because I'd feel like I finally stood up for myself. Of course, it could always make it worse too and prevent me from moving on with my life if he gets vindictive..so who knows.. Just thinking aloud here.

(As an aside, I guess I disagree that just because the professor gets the grant, that they are entitled to the only credit on papers. I think credit has to be given where credit is due. If Panda's view was the prevailing view, I'd figure you wouldn't see many papers with more than one author (e.g. most papers would only have the grantee's name on it).



Yeah, I thought about this too. Problem is the investigation has apparenlty been ongoing for some time (hence the repeated voicemails from the dean's office), and they are wrapping it up now. I think if I am going to talk, now is the time, when they are armed with the statements of several other people. Now is when my statement would have the most effect in convincing the dean to take a closer look at his behavior. Later, if I speak it might not have any effect, because the dean will (presumably) already have taken action and won't feel the need to take any more.

I don't think I'm the only one who cares about this. I didn't instigate the investigation, and until I started getting calls from the Dean I was content to let this go. It was only when the other people spoke up, that the Dean started calling me. So I think those other people and the Dean are perhaps even more concerned and care more about this dispute than I do.

I meant that you need to start medical school and then, in six months, you will have more important things to worry about.

Now, if you just want revenge I can totally understand and support any action that you take that will make the bastard squirm. But a quest for truth? Forget about it. There is no truth here, at least nothing that's going to come out in such a way as to give you the cathartic experience you are looking for.

As for your fellow workers, **** 'em. It's not like they're working in a coal mine with an evil boss who makes them dig the coal with their hands and pays them five dollars a day. How are you going to improve their lives and careers? By getting the professor fired (an impossiblity)? Their options are to quit and lose a couple years of effort or have their meal ticket fired and lose a couple years of effort. It's just graduate school.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Dear OP:

I speak as a senior academic faculty with some insight into these types of investigations. You have been asked by a dean to discuss your experiences while at their school. You are not the only person that has been asked to do this and it is doubtful that you are the "main" witness here. It is inappropriate to refuse to even speak to the dean. Rather, the original advice from Law2doc and others to speak to the dean but to be non-accusatory and factual is best. From your posts, I suspect you will have problems with handling this meeting. You have two choices. One is that you could write down what you wish to say and practice it first or two, you could discuss this with legal counsel and have them guide you in what to say. I doubt that is needed though.

This is not "whistle-blowing", this is an attempt by the dean to gain information about the behaviors of a problematic, but successful, faculty member. Although the dean does not have your best interests in mind as his/her principal motivation for speaking with you, it is unlikely bordering on inconceivable that they would refuse to support you if the professor attempted some form of retribution. It is nearly as unlikely that this will pose any problems for your medical school admission, unless, of course, there is more to this story than you are telling here.

Finally, I discourage you from continuing to post details of the incident on SDN. There aren't that many situations exactly like your original post, especially the lawsuit history aspect. Having gotten the usual range of SDN answers, I recommend deleting the thread. Repost what happens in general terms later if you wish in a new thread.

good luck

OBP

 

[Gut Shot]

The other bizarre thing is that everyone keeps saying I should move on with my life.. and I agree.. but I stopped and wondered today if I CAN move on with my life if I don't speak up.

Yes, you sure can. I applaud you for your desire to be ethical and do the right thing, but there is absolutely zero reason for you to risk even one iota of your future over some microcosmic academic feud. I know it seems very immediate and pressing right now, but in the grand scheme of things (i.e. your life) it's a small to moderate blip. I wouldn't touch it with a 79 foot pole until after I matriculated. Were it me in your shoes, the Dean could have my interview after that or not at all.

 

[anteater1010]

hey guys, okay..OBP has scared me sufficiently that I am going to remove the original post. I think some of the latter posters may be right.. maybe I am making too big a deal of this.

So.. I think I am going to wait to talk to the Dean. I'm going to tell him honestly that I fear retribution if I talk to him, and that I'd be more than willing to talk to him if he still needs me to AFTER I am well-settled in medical school. I figure the fact that I fear retribution itself will speak volumes about what he has done to me and to others. And at that point, when I actually talk to him in depth, I will answer his questions in the interests of being ethical, but I'm going to let him do the asking and let him steer the discussion, and I'll answer what he says honestly and pointedly, but I won't volunteer stuff sua sponte.

As far as the LOR, I don't know 100% if I left on good terms. He still didn't talk to me when I left, and he hasn't spoken to me since even though I email every now and then to say hi, in the interests of keeping relationships. I was very surprised he even wrote me the LOR. To be honest, I have a feeling he wrote it for me only because I knew his higher-up, and I had casually mentioned in a conversation where both were present that "Dr. ____ was gracious enough to write me a LOI for my med school applications." After that, I think he felt compelled to follow through. He had fired so many people before I was leaving, and firing me or withholding a recc letter would have raised some eyebrows, which I think he wanted to avoid.

The whole situation is just so bizarre. I just want to know "why" all the favoritism...it was so sudden. But I don't think I'll ever get the answer.

As far as my coworkers go.. I guess the motivation was to help them avoid getting into situations where they waste a year busting their butt to get data, only to come out with no reccs and no publications. But in the end, I have a feeling my "testimony" will not really make a difference. It might get the professor a slap on the wrist, but I doubt he'll change his overall tactics. Obviously he didn't last time he got sued. So maybe I was overestimating how important my talking was.

Again guys...thanks a million. I feel a LOT better now.
And next time, yes.. I will try to "grow a pair."

 

[crazydiamond]

I just want to know "why" all the favoritism...it was so sudden. But I don't think I'll ever get the answer.

No, unfortunately you won't get this answer. Not unless he has an honest heart-to-heart with you. But that'll never happen.

The thing that comes across most ot me in your original post was that you somehow felt (still feel?) partially responsible for his behavior. That is absurd and going through life carrying other people's baggage will only make hell for you.

The bottom line is that whatever this guy's deal is, it has nothing to do with you. Don't take his actions personally. The sooner you realize that 99% of most people's behavior (good and bad) has more to do with themselves than others, the happier you'll be.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm going to tell him honestly that I fear retribution if I talk to him, and that I'd be more than willing to talk to him if he still needs me to AFTER I am well-settled in medical school.

There is certainly a more political way to phrase this. Saying you "fear retribution" telegraphs to the dean that you are going to bash the professor.

 

[leftmid]

How about asking the dean to write an LOR or some update for your application?

*Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. But I do have a lot of experiences in answering without reading a question first in a lot of tests (that I have highly passed.)*